Witcher 2 Again

[CoM_Solaufein]

Must be a hit with all of the posts about it.

[Orchomene]

About combat and gameplay, I can't really say. I'm playing easy level to enjoy the story and don't care much about combat. I feel that combat is boring in all games that are not turn based, but it can just be me.

[Malcador]

Hah, well that was fun throwing guys off walls with Aaard.

[Calax]

The game needed to feel a bit more epic. No offense but it felt like I was in a few brush wars rather than some massive epic empire spanning tale. Part of it was probably because of the fact there's only the three acts/locations, but I think the other part is that due to how they portrayed the various conflicts within, it felt confined. You had Floatsom and the half mile around it, you had the two camps in the rebel encounter, and the final location.

 

The second act is probably the biggest offender because of the fact that, basically, you're stuck with your one side of the conflict until the very end due to macguffin spell of death. If they'd kept that area open and had you running around between the camps and having to deal with skirmishers (sort of like the Scoiatel vs random mobs in Floatsom) then it probably would have felt more epic. Or if the Army battles actually showed armies clashing rather than 12 guys getting killed in various ways.

[Orchomene]

I don't want epicness in my games. Nowadays, every rpg needs to be epic or it's a scenario failure. Epic can be sometimes interesting, but if every movie or book was epic, it woud become quickly boring.

When I read an editorial about a game that regrets the game is not enough epic, I know I won't agree with what I read.

No offense to you, Calax, that's just that 'epic' is overused, overasked and all in all, overboring if found everywhere.

[Calax]

Not every story needs to be epic true. But when you open with the slaying of a king, and then move on to an open rebellion and social upheaval, That requires EPIC.

[Lexx]

I don't really agree with that either. Especially because Geralt is more the "go away with that crap, I am not interested in that"-type of character, imo. So I think it would have felt bad if he know "accidentally" falls into such an epic tale. It's just not what his focus is on.

[Calax]

The entire thing is under played. And a regicide, while not requiring, generally is attached to "Epic". Add in the Social upheaval taking place under Saskia, and the fact that Geralt ends up being a part of politics there, and you almost have to make the story bigger than it's current feel.

 

That's sort of Geralts character, He doesn't want to be in these situations where he effectively makes kings and seduces queens, and destroys kingdoms, but he gets dragged into it kicking and screaming anyway. As it is right now, the creation of a new kingdom and social order, feels like it's basically Seven Samurai. A small town getting a tiny group of competent people to guard it from a band of bandits. They say "Oh we gots us thousands of men" on each side, but you never see more than 100. I was on the rebels side and for all their talk of "We have Knights, Dwarves, Elves, shotguns, pesants!" and so on, you only saw a tiny crew of dwarves holding off a tiny crew of knights.

 

Neverwinter Nights 2 felt more epic than this in it's siege battle, and it's engine couldn't well handle that many units on screen at once. Like I said, if they'd opened up the battlefield in between and had roaming bands of both armies skirmishing etc, it probably would have felt MUCH more like it was an actual conflict, rather than a bandit raid.

[WorstUsernameEver]

The game needed to feel a bit more epic.

 

No, no, no, no. Please, no. There was already too "style over substance" stuff in it as it is.

[Calax]

Why does everyone assume I want Lord of the Rings level of Epic?

[HoonDing]

Third game will feature saving the damsel-in-distress and fighting an otherworldly force, seems epic enough. Possibly even a Nilfgaard invasion.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Third game will feature saving the damsel-in-distress and fighting an otherworldly force, seems epic enough. Possibly even a Nilfgaard invasion.

 

The "otherworld force"

made of space elves

was a pretty bad idea. I take it that you've read the books, virumor, so can you confirm that it's Sapkowski's fault?

[HoonDing]

Yeah, he based them on the sidhe from Arthurian myth, who are basically the same. Also Avalla'ch = Avalon.

[Lexx]

Heh, yeah, that was pretty ****ty and somehow not fitting at all.

[mkreku]

The game needed to feel a bit more epic.

GAAHH DIEEE

 

One of the best moments in the best game I know was when I was walking into a small alley behind a house in a village and ended up in an undercover fight club. Just me and him. No spectators, no saving anyone, no big shiny rewards. Just a guy who wants to beat the **** out of you and me wanting to stomp his face into the ground. As far away from epic you could possibly imagine. We even fought with sticks in a makeshift "arena" (some lines drawn on the ground)! And yet it is one of the most memorable moments in (my) gaming.

 

Up close and personal (when done right) is so much more rewarding than Bioware's take on Epic ©.

[Calax]

Gah, I'm not asking for everything to be over the top uber-violence to save the world from the evil darkness of deathy doom. If you'll look at my posts rather than JUST ONE SENTENCE I'm stating that there are certain points in the game that SHOULD BE EPIC but are NOT. I am perfectly fine with the back ally fight club and subdued tone. But a SIEGE is not "10 guys sit on a wall and knock another 10 guys off for three minutes".

 

 

Thus the key word in the sentence that everyone is fixated on is not "Epic" but "Bit"

[WorstUsernameEver]

Gah, I'm not asking for everything to be over the top uber-violence to save the world from the evil darkness of deathy doom. If you'll look at my posts rather than JUST ONE SENTENCE I'm stating that there are certain points in the game that SHOULD BE EPIC but are NOT. I am perfectly fine with the back ally fight club and subdued tone. But a SIEGE is not "10 guys sit on a wall and knock another 10 guys off for three minutes".

 

Sure but the technical limitations make it so that they can't show more than that. Personally I think they did a fine job making war situations feel like war situations despite that.

[Hassat Hunter]

I remember 100s of soldiers fighting at once soon after starting chapter 2. Wasn't epic enough for Calyx?

[Calax]

I remember 100s of soldiers fighting at once soon after starting chapter 2. Wasn't epic enough for Calyx?

Spelled my name wrong.

 

That said, the fighting at the start of Chapter two didn't feel epic, because the "hundreds of soldiers" would disintegrate as you got near them, and you had super special aura going that took care of most of your enemies (I was Saskias side).

 

As to the Engine issue, there are ways around that. NWN2 had creative use of the background and mechanics to make the massive battle at your keep seem larger. Siege towers would roll up and spawn as many units as possible, and once they were dead, the next troop would roll up. Meanwhile in the background you can see what appears to be a roiling mass of creatures coming towards you.

 

In Witcher 2 you get two ladders that are glued to the wall, that every so often will have units climb up to join the fray. This is my point, it would have required a bit of re-working of the map and the visuals, but you could have EASILY made the fight seem much larger in scale. Also, as I mentioned before, the whole "Battlefield is cursed and lost" gimmick felt... heavy handed as a way for the chapter to be drawn out.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I don't honestly feel like NWN2 did a better job giving you a sense of scale than The Witcher 2, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Tigranes]

I know you don't mean LOTR style epic Calax, but I'm not sure they could have done a lot more to add a sense of 'scale' - we already have dialogue references to past battles and what it means for the North as a whole, we get to participate in numerousd iplomatic discusisons and political intrigue with kings, sorceresses and ambassadors, we get a big international relations conference, we have a tightly fought siege and all out battle, etc.

 

I think the actual problem is not 'epic' but delivery of the sense of scale and conflict, which might be what you meant. I thought Ch2 was the best at it, though. Especially if you go to

Vergen

, everyone's talk and behaviour reflects a sense of impending danger and possibly doom, which hangs over the city in every corner; nearly every single quest is written to reflect this gloomy condition; you run into multiple scenes of conflict and pre-war skirmishes out in the 'wilderness'. I thought Chapter 1 was a lot worse in that the Scoiatael are much more invisible, and what Dandelion describes as that air of amoral, calculating opportunism is hard to find outside of certain characters and the finale. Things such as Kayran's threat to Flotsam, and the missing

elves and Dmitri

, for instance, could have been delivered a lot better.

 

That said, few games do this very well - it's hard to come up with any great examples. NWN1/2 certainly didn't do much in this department, they just used a very convenient plague.

[Walsingham]

I agree with Calaz <siz> Although I should stress that I haven't played W2 yet.

 

The big fights seemed more epic for two reasons:

 

1. Threat overload.

 

Even when there were not many people around you had freaking fireballs crashing down, and plenty of spells and other stuff. Plus you wanted to husband the defenders. So one had this sense of being overwhelmed.

 

2. Battle command

 

You got to choose your troops. So you internalised numbers of soldiers even when they weren't there.

[Hassat Hunter]

Spelled my name wrong.

Oops.

That said, the fighting at the start of Chapter two didn't feel epic, because the "hundreds of soldiers" would disintegrate as you got near them, and you had super special aura going that took care of most of your enemies (I was Saskias side).

Same on the other. But it still felt pretty atmospheric for me. Better than the start of chapter 1 doing pretty much the same, but without all hell around you.

[Orogun01]

Maybe when we have a super processor that could fill the battlefield and have pretty graphics without killing the game with lag and not going over budget on the design part, we can have TW3: Epic battles of ...whatever in hell the continent it's named. A lot of the design choices were made precisely to save memory space for graphics and "epicness" or I'm the only one who noticed the lack of storage, not one f'ing chest in the whole game

[Tale]

Storage is for ADD kids who can't prioritize. amirite?