Bin Laden is dead

[WDeranged]

Noam Chomsky talks about Bin Laden's death.

[Malcador]

Well that was a revelation.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Noam Chomsky talks about Bin Laden's death.

Can't say I'm surprised by the opinion of a self avowed 'Libertarian Socialist'.

[Gorgon]

I've said as much before, but haven't the US been trying to kill him for a decade already. Spy drones, air strikes etc. Yes, they went in and eliminated him, that much seems obvious, and why then did they pretend it's something else. They couldn't put him on trial, a closed trial would have no legitimacy at all given their relationship, and an open trial would be a platform for him to preach from, and besides the US doesn't subscribe to the notion of international courts.

 

If the official stance had been, 'yes we killed him, it was a military operation in an ongoing conflict'. I don't think there would have been much in the way of outcry at all. If we can't class him as an 'enemy combatant', then who, honestly.

[Hurlshort]

I've said as much before, but haven't the US been trying to kill him for a decade already. Spy drones, air strikes etc. Yes, they went in and eliminated him, that much seems obvious, and why then did they pretend it's something else. They couldn't put him on trial, a closed trial would have no legitimacy at all given their relationship, and an open trial would be a platform for him to preach from, and besides the US doesn't subscribe to the notion of international courts.

 

If the official stance had been, 'yes we killed him, it was a military operation in an ongoing conflict'. I don't think there would have been much in the way of outcry at all. If we can't class him as an 'enemy combatant', then who, honestly.

 

I approve of this message.

[Walsingham]

Noam Chomsky talks about Bin Laden's death.

Can't say I'm surprised by the opinion of a self avowed 'Libertarian Socialist'.

 

I haven't read it yet. But can I assume that Chomsky reckons that Bin Laden is a stooge for terror perpetrated by the evil USA?

 

I'm currently reading Robert Fisk's The Great War for Civilization, and seldom have I read such self-contradictory and self-aggrandising nonsense. Particularly in the opening chapter about bin Laden.

[Hurlshort]

He does try to cast doubt that Bin Laden had a hand in 9/11.

 

I don't really get the whole idea of defending Bin Laden. I get that the evidence is lacking, but when a guy goes out of his way to confess to such a heinous act, it is pretty safe to accept that and do whatever you can to make sure he is unable to do anything like it again.

[Rosbjerg]

The world (and very much the Middle East) is better off without him.. I just wish that we actually stood for all the good we say we do - because then our reason for hunting him would be just.

 

As it stands it's petty revenge, which is not very noble. Understandable though..

[Tale]

Is it sad that I know of Gnome Chompsky more than Noam Chomski? Because I totally didn't realize the second one was a real person.

[Gfted1]

Osama bin Laden mission agreed in secret 10 years ago by US and Pakistan.

 

Monday 9 May 2011 19.06 BST

 

The US and Pakistan struck a secret deal almost a decade ago permitting a US operation against Osama bin Laden on Pakistani soil similar to last week's raid that killed the al-Qaida leader, the Guardian has learned.

 

The deal was struck between the military leader General Pervez Musharraf and President George Bush after Bin Laden escaped US forces in the mountains of Tora Bora in late 2001, according to serving and retired Pakistani and US officials.

 

Under its terms, Pakistan would allow US forces to conduct a unilateral raid inside Pakistan in search of Bin Laden, his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and the al-Qaida No3. Afterwards, both sides agreed, Pakistan would vociferously protest the incursion.

 

"There was an agreement between Bush and Musharraf that if we knew where Osama was, we were going to come and get him," said a former senior US official with knowledge of counterterrorism operations. "The Pakistanis would put up a hue and cry, but they wouldn't stop us."

 

The deal puts a new complexion on the political storm triggered by Bin Laden's death in Abbottabad, 35 miles north of Islamabad, where a team of US navy Seals assaulted his safe house in the early hours of 2 May.

 

Pakistani officials have insisted they knew nothing of the raid, with military and civilian leaders issuing a strong rebuke to the US. If the US conducts another such assault, Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani warned parliament on Monday, "Pakistan reserves the right to retaliate with full force."

 

Days earlier, Musharraf, now running an opposition party from exile in London, emerged as one of the most vocal critics of the raid, terming it a "violation of the sovereignty of Pakistan".

 

But under the terms of the secret deal, while Pakistanis may not have been informed of the assault, they had agreed to it in principle.

 

A senior Pakistani official said it had been struck under Musharraf and renewed by the army during the "transition to democracy"

[Calax]

That sort of... emasculates Pakistan. Although the fact that the Bush leadership basically said "One way or another those things are going to die" seems like it fits the bill for the attitudes at the time.

[Gfted1]

I think its brilliant politicing on both sides. We get bin Laden and they dont look bad helping us. Everyone wins.

[Calax]

Until now when it all gets outed

[Zoraptor]

The Pakistanis can just blame it all on Musharraf who is already loathed by much of Pakistan. I don't think there's much goodwill amongst Pakistanis in general towards either the US or their own government to be lost in any case.

[Walsingham]

He does try to cast doubt that Bin Laden had a hand in 9/11.

 

I don't really get the whole idea of defending Bin Laden. I get that the evidence is lacking, but when a guy goes out of his way to confess to such a heinous act, it is pretty safe to accept that and do whatever you can to make sure he is unable to do anything like it again.

 

It would be a pretty cool 'suicide by cop' to lay claim to a huge atrocity.

[WDeranged]

TSA fondling a baby.

 

The boogieman is removed from the narrative but the insanity is here to stay.

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's not really insanity, Jihadists do use children as bombs. And since TSA isn't allowed to racially profile, or make any judgment as to how likely a given person is to be a Jihadist, well, any child is fair game.

[Solo]

Well for a little while I am staying here in Japan until things cool down.

[Tigranes]

I continue not to see a huge deal in this. As Gorgon said a trial was out of the question - a live capture then protracted discussion over what to do with him would have quickly become problematic, risking giving Bin Laden a final legacy in the form of a giant soapbox and raising all sorts of questions about international law, US' position, justice/revenge, etc. The US took a calculated risk and said any uproar from going in and shooting him in the face is better than that in all areas, and they are right.

 

The Pakistani 'agreement' is not a huge surprise either. It was the most sensible way for both governments to actually get something done about the situation without attracitng needless public outcry. They needed to hunt down Al-Qaeda and bin Laden. It would have sent a stupid message to the US, terrorists and everyone else if they said "oh we can't follow ya there". They simply used, well, diplomacy to ensure that the focus was on the elimination of security threats.

 

Of course there is the disturbing spectre of sovereignty but it is only just that, a spectre. International relations are dependent on soft power and deals made on the basis of soft power. Privacy and individual human rights are the much greater concern - to me the processes behind bin Laden's death is pretty agreeable compared to the chucking of random Arabs into CIA custody at airports.

[Pidesco]

This sort of discussions on righteous revenge always make me wonder who, here, professes to be a Christian or subscribes to Christian values.

[Raithe]

This sort of discussions on righteous revenge always make me wonder who, here, professes to be a Christian or someone subscribing to Christian values.

 

I guess that depends on whether you happen to be feeling new testament or old testament...

[Nepenthe]

This sort of discussions on righteous revenge always make me wonder who, here, professes to be a Christian or someone subscribing to Christian values.

I've always assumed that those are only brought out when the discussion turns to gay rights...

 

But more seriously, this is a very complex situation, both ethically and legally. As in, what a state of war (referring to the congress resolution I think I linked to above) against a non-government entity entails. I don't applaud revenge, but I can see the need for occasional harsh justice or straightforward use of military force.

 

It's not even a new problem, the Brits kept fidgeting between treating Northern Ireland as either a police or military matter, I've heard people say that this indecisiveness alone extended the conflict by some decades.

[Raithe]

It's not even a new problem, the Brits kept fidgeting between treating Northern Ireland as either a police or military matter, I've heard people say that this indecisiveness alone extended the conflict by some decades.

 

Just to really throw some fuel on the bonfire then.. I could say that one of the few good things to come out of 9/11 was that a whole heap of Americans suddenly stopped giving money to the IRA.

[Walsingham]

I'd love to live in a world where scanning a baby really was unnecessary.

[Pidesco]

It's not even a new problem, the Brits kept fidgeting between treating Northern Ireland as either a police or military matter, I've heard people say that this indecisiveness alone extended the conflict by some decades.

 

Just to really throw some fuel on the bonfire then.. I could say that one of the few good things to come out of 9/11 was that a whole heap of Americans suddenly stopped giving money to the IRA.

 

 

They kept giving money to the Wahhabis and the Muslim Brotherhood, though.