Purkake Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 Presuming the PC-skill dependent aiming (as weak as it was) was the main or a significant problem people had with AP. Don't recall it being so, was mostly bleating on about bugs and the nebulous "lack of polish" (CD Projekt should have been involved), etc. It probably fell under the "lack of polish" bit then.
Malcador Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 Nah, polish usually gets attributed to a whole assortment of stuff like world details etc. Did manage to track back some of the whining, people did complain about the combat, still think that's a PEBKAC, but people are so. So I guess you're right about AP. In any event, that's a pick on an implementation, not the idea *shrug* Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
entrerix Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 i like the alpha protocol and deus ex method of calculating aim and accuracy and damage etc based on skill points, but i also like how it works in new vegas, raising the skill raises primarily the damage, and your ability to most effectively use the better guns in the category. I think its one of the best ways i've seen the problem handled, because it also makes it so the gun skills aren't always 10x more worthy of skill points than the non-combat skills, since you can still be effective with a low skill in the weapon. ie: the pc starts out good at everything, but can choose to become a master of only a few. instead of 1) the pc starting out as crap at everything and then choosing to become OK at everything, or 2) master of a couple and still crap with the rest Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Slowtrain Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 If Deus Ex was released for the first time today with better graphics it would get panned across the board and sell about 8 copies. It would be considered too slow, clumsy. and confusing. It would also have too many big words. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Nepenthe Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 If Deus Ex was released for the first time today with better graphics it would get panned across the board and sell about 8 copies. It would be considered too slow, clumsy. and confusing. It would also have too many big words. I have really big hopes Squeenix is going to test that theory at some point. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions
Tale Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 I probably wouldn't even like Deus Ex if it was released today with identical mechanics. Mainly the shooting. fffffffffffffffffffffffffff the low skill shooting. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
HoonDing Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 I probably wouldn't even like Deus Ex if it was released today with identical mechanics. Mainly the shooting. fffffffffffffffffffffffffff the low skill shooting. That may have been the major reason for the Mass Effect overhaul. Shepard was supposed to be a War Hero/Sole Survivor/Any Other Variation Of Badass, but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn on Horizon and died if an enemy as much as sneezed at him/her. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
entrerix Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 i think the main think that would stick out about deus ex today would be the ai. assuming the graphics were updated then some people might whine about how they can't hit anything until they level up the shooty skills, but i don't think anyone would play it without questioning the enemy ai Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Tale Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 I never really cared for the "the player is supposed to be an X, why can't they behave like an X." A lot of them are designed around a shooter core but then fumble the actual shooting. I don't really care if my character is a school teacher, if you toss me into an area with a gun versus an army, I better be able to fire the gun straight. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
HoonDing Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 i think the main think that would stick out about deus ex today would be the ai. assuming the graphics were updated then some people might whine about how they can't hit anything until they level up the shooty skills, but i don't think anyone would play it without questioning the enemy ai It's not like today's AI is any better. Look up some "Crysis AI" on Youtube. And laugh. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Slowtrain Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 If Deus Ex was released for the first time today with better graphics it would get panned across the board and sell about 8 copies. It would be considered too slow, clumsy. and confusing. It would also have too many big words. I have really big hopes Squeenix is going to test that theory at some point. I would love to be proved wrong in the worst way. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Gorth Posted December 21, 2010 Author Posted December 21, 2010 I could have spaced half the crew just to get away from their family drama. Why? Jacob: Whinge, Whinge, Daddy! Whinge... Miranda: Whinge, Whinge, Daddy! Whinge... Thane: Whinge, Whinge, I'm a failure as a Daddy! Whinge... Samara: Whinge, Whinge, I'm a failure as a Daddy Mommy! Whinge... Jack: Whinge, Whinge, I need no Daddy! Whinge... Zaeed: Whinge, Whinge, Who's your Daddy? Whinge... Tali: Whinge, Whinge, Will you be my Daddy? Whinge... Garrus: Whinge, Whinge, Red Tape! Whinge... Mordin: Whinge, Whinge, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds! Whinge... Legion: Whinge, Whinge, We are all Whinging! Whinge... Grunt: Whinge, Growll? I'm Weak! Rawwrrrr! Smash! Kill! No More Whinging! You may have a point Some (family) dramas are just more fun than others then. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Tale Posted December 21, 2010 Posted December 21, 2010 Legion would have stayed on. Total bro. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Malcador Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 If Deus Ex was released for the first time today with better graphics it would get panned across the board and sell about 8 copies. It would be considered too slow, clumsy. and confusing. It would also have too many big words. And no romance. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Niten_Ryu Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 I probably wouldn't even like Deus Ex if it was released today with identical mechanics. Mainly the shooting. fffffffffffffffffffffffffff the low skill shooting. I was big fan of DeusEx shooting mechanics for a long time but I agree that it won't work anymore (or rather, we could argue that it never did for the majoirt of the players). Modern players just don't get the fact that if they accurately aim something and still miss. They quit playing, tell their friends that the game sucks and take another round in newest Call of Duty game. Speaking about CoD series, I know I've had to change my opinion about CoD4 Modern Warfare. While the constant scripting, endless enemy waves (unless you move to the certain trigger or wait for script to run out), Michael Bay-esque storyline are some of the negative aspects of that game, the shooting mechanics are probably best I've experienced in 20 years. Actually contrast between CoD4 and something like Alpha Protocol are so great, that you forget that both games (from shooting mechanics point of view) should be from same era. Alpha Protocol feel like circa 2000 game, while CoD4 feels... well, a modern game Let's not forget that while CoD series was popular, it only exploded with generation defining game CoD4. For example CoD3 sold 2 million copies in US and CoD4 sold even more in same time perioid... but it continued to sell because of good word of mouth. In the next 1,5 years it sold more then 13 million units worldwide. Developers like Obsidian, Bethedsa and Bioware should just rip off the latest and greatest shooting mechanics and focus their main resources elsewhere. I know at least Bethesda could use some extra in writing and Bioware could maybe open up maps and teach their characters to jump, crouch and prone. Obsidian could just fix the bugs *drools* Bug free Alpha Protocol, with Spinter Cell stealth mechanics and CoD4 shooting mechanics. Let's play Alpha Protocol My misadventures on youtube.
GreasyDogMeat Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 (edited) If Deus Ex was released for the first time today with better graphics it would get panned across the board and sell about 8 copies. It would be considered too slow, clumsy. and confusing. It would also have too many big words. Heh, I thought it was slow and clumsy back when it was released. Not to mention poor AI. I remember causing trouble at UNATCO, shooting/hitting a few people to get the soldiers after me then hiding in a duct until it was 'all clear' then going back out like nothing had happened. It was still an amazing game for its time. I might still enjoy it today but I haven't played it in years. I may dust it off for another playthrough come close to the new Deus Ex's release. I should point out that I don't mind a system where you are innacurate at the start, but as you spend points you increase in accuracy, its just that I didn't like how EXTREME it was in Deus Ex. I mean, it was like you had the shakes. The aiming was horrendous. It at least seemed somewhat realistic in Alpha Protocol. Edited December 22, 2010 by GreasyDogMeat
entrerix Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 (edited) to niten: i have a feeling that is the future of gaming actually. games with top notch writing, shooting, and stealth, all optional. (ok maybe not top notch writing) don't like a conversation? hit the right trigger to shoot whoever is talking, cue firefight. don't like shooting? its ok you can sneak and/or talk your way through the whole game? want to mix and match? no problem. i mean, deus ex did it first, but the formula seems so obviously awesome that its bound to be where gaming goes, genres are already smashing together like crazy, levelling up in CoD, fps style shooting in bioware "rpgs". mark my words, in ten years most blockbusters will be like this. if you want an actual niche genre game you will be forced to buy indie. everyone will believe me when the next big CoD type franchise (probably not an existing one, will be a new IP) will be like CoD but with some dialogue and choices to make in the game Edited December 22, 2010 by entrerix Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.
Slowtrain Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 Even at its best DX combat and movement mechanics were a bit clumsy and awkward feeling. Haven't played it for quite a while so I don't really know how I would react to it now. ANd yeah, the AI was stinky, but really has AI improved much since then? Maybe, but not nearly enough imo. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Slowtrain Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 top notch writing, maybe. In some far flung future. Long after humanity has turned to dust. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Hassat Hunter Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 (edited) I liked DX's combat. And AP combat. And ME combat. Skill-based aiming? Sign me up... Too bad most people seem too stupid to work with it though. It makes i impossible to just kill everybody quickly (like possible in ME2 and such), making one-on-one's more intense, more sneaky. Imagine Splinter Cell when you could just shoot everybody to death ME2 style. Wouldn't that loose pretty much all of the game's purpose? And to whoever said AP should get CoD4 combat? Then it would be like ME2. And I really really really prefer AP over ME2. Edited December 22, 2010 by Hassat Hunter ^ I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5. TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee
GreasyDogMeat Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 I remember now why I like AP's version of aiming progression over Deus Ex's. In reality, anyone can hit a bulls eye. The difference between Joe Shmoe who has never fired a gun before and Carl Commando is that Joe has to sit there aiming for a long time, controlling his breathing and then finally getting the shot off a minute later while Carl will have put a couple clips within the bulls eye in that minute. In Alpha Protocol the lowest ranked shooter can still get a head shot off, but he is going to have to aim at his target for a good 15-20 seconds before the reticule is locked on while Expert Mike can get the shot off almost immediately. In Deus Ex if you don't have the skill your pistol is never going to get to the point where your shot is guaranteed to hit no matter how long you aim unless your skill level is high.
Orogun01 Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 I remember now why I like AP's version of aiming progression over Deus Ex's. In reality, anyone can hit a bulls eye. The difference between Joe Shmoe who has never fired a gun before and Carl Commando is that Joe has to sit there aiming for a long time, controlling his breathing and then finally getting the shot off a minute later while Carl will have put a couple clips within the bulls eye in that minute. In Alpha Protocol the lowest ranked shooter can still get a head shot off, but he is going to have to aim at his target for a good 15-20 seconds before the reticule is locked on while Expert Mike can get the shot off almost immediately. In Deus Ex if you don't have the skill your pistol is never going to get to the point where your shot is guaranteed to hit no matter how long you aim unless your skill level is high. Ok I replayed both games a few months ago so I can objectively say that AP progression scale it's a lot higher than DX. In AP you basically can't hit ****, every gunfight; even with expert, it's basically me behind cover waiting for the critical hit. Because that's the only way to get a sure shot that it's actually on target. DX, I can have an actual firefight where I hit where I was aiming. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
GreasyDogMeat Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 Ok I replayed both games a few months ago so I can objectively say that AP progression scale it's a lot higher than DX. In AP you basically can't hit ****, every gunfight; even with expert, it's basically me behind cover waiting for the critical hit. Because that's the only way to get a sure shot that it's actually on target. DX, I can have an actual firefight where I hit where I was aiming. My memory might be off but that is how it felt to me. I felt more effective in AP, especially at higher levels. That may have had something to do with how much damage enemies could take.
Tigranes Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 AP's aiming error has been greatly exaggerated. I am by any stretch of imagination a substandard aimer in shooter games, but after a few hours' experience I had no trouble headshotting people relatively consistently at Level 1. Even with zero skill in pistol it doesn't take more than 5-7 seconds to line up an aimed shot at the head, which - if in range - will still get the headshot more often than not. At least, as GDM says, in AP no matter how crap you are if you take the time to line up a shot you still have a good chance - DX's mechanism didn't even account for that. Reports of perfect headshots missing completely all the time are complete bogus - they come from (a) the unlucky few times when it does happen (you know, like critically missing that rat in FO1...), and (b) when people just line up a shot moving without realising there's an aimed shot, like they do in a FPS, then say "screw this". You can argue that stat-based aiming is a bad idea, or that you felt AP combat was crap, but you can't argue that you couldn't hit anything in AP - that was simply not the case if you took 10 minutes to see how the mechanics worked. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress)
Hell Kitty Posted December 22, 2010 Posted December 22, 2010 "Guy in a coat!" "Guess it was nothing."
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