Piracy

[Thorton_AP]

for every piece of software on the market there is a free alternative. which is not the case with games, because games require more to make than just be a good programmer. I consider game crackers to be somewhere with the free software builders. they have the same goals and they pretty much "hurt" their respective markets in the same way.

 

I'd argue that there are plenty of free, public domain games out there that you can play.

 

Unless you're looking for a 1:1 relationship in that there is no free equivalent of Dragon Age. As you say though, games require a lot more than being just a good programmer.

 

 

However, if acquiring free software is a stress relief or source of entertainment (or whatever) for someone in a financially strapped situation, why is the public domain of free games insufficient?

 

 

I consider game crackers to be somewhere with the free software builders. they have the same goals and they pretty much "hurt" their respective markets in the same way.

 

The big difference between game crackers and those that make freely available software is that the crackers aren't actually making the software. They are merely taking someone else's work and making it available to others for no/low cost. This is a huge difference as it requires orders of magnitude less resources to take someone else's work and alter it. I think your analogy is an exceptionally poor one.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[sorophx]

I didn't mean that they put the same effort into it. I meant it from a customer's/user's point of view.

[Orchomene]

Except 'pirates' (thieves) have been caught, and prosecuted. And, legal authorities are dealing with the issue. It *is* a crime to pirate or purchase pirated copies in any modernized civlized nation. As will it should be since it's pure theft. Now matter the lame excuses defending it.

 

Not at all. In some european countries, it's not a crime. What is criminal is pirating a game and upload it for others : that's considered forgery or illegal distribution. Of course, that means that Torrent process is subject to criminal behaviour in case of pirated games because you do both by default (download and upload). But a direct download is not.

Your radical conception of piracy is largely not accepted worldwide, even less in Asia than in Europe.

 

Edit : It is condescending and moralist to tell younger that they will regret pirating games. I'm 34, I've never pirated any game nor downloaded illegally music because I either had no money so no computer at all or I had money to buy a computer and thus bought games too. But I don't see where the moral takes place here. Do you follow the law because of your moral or because you think that following laws is part of integration inside a society ? If this is because of moral, then you have a very strange moral, indeed.

 

Piracy is bad not because it's theft (which is absurd, thieving means that you remove from someone the possibility to use what you have stolen) but because in the economical model used in the gaming industry, the only way the actors of production (I mean producers, developers, designers,...) get paid is buy selling the licence allowing other people to use the software.

There are other economical models. If you download freely the software to run WoW, there is no issue with the actors of production since it's by a monthly fee they get paid. Other receive money gifts, other receive public funds. In research, mathematics and algorithms can not be licenced. That means the mathematician that took 10 years to develop a robust algorithm get nothing from it whereas the developer that implements it on a computer language in six months can get all the benefice. Do you think this is a valid model ?

Absolutely not. A lot of professions get their pay by other mean than assuming property of something immaterial.

 

Someone here talked about an economical law. There is such an economical principle that states the price of a product asymptotically converges toward the price of its support. That means a music DVD price will end at the price of an empty DVD. That also means the price limit for a software on internet is the connection price. There is no way to fight against this rule and the pathetic attempt of the game industry or more generally the entertainment industry to fight against it is the wrong reaction. A good reaction is the adaptation of the situation and find another economical model.

Who are the software winners of the last ten years ? Facebook and Google.

Do they charge their customers for the software licence ? No.

 

If you want to know who will be the winners of the gaming industry, have a look at the new sites that propose playing games without install and with poor hardware resources. They are offering what will be some day the only way to reach the game service : you don't see the software but can play it. You don't need to pay a regular update of hardware. You don't pay per game, you pay just a fee to have access to a collection of games. Just like a lot of TV business models.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Orchomene

[Calax]

"The fact of the matter is, Piracy will happen"

 

The fact of the matter is, murder will happen.. so we shouldn't do anything to try to stop it. Don't you see how silly thata rgument is?

 

We should do things that eliminate the causes of murder obviously - increased education, increased prosperity of the populace. Increased law enforcement only works up to a point and the long-term gains are not as large.

 

It's a fitting example you chose Volourn, because it demonstrates why eliminating the source of a problem - changing one's business model in this case - has superior efficacy in the medium to long-term to treating people harshly.

This was exactly my point, no matter what you're gonna have to deal with piracy, theft, damaged good, and other losses when operating a commercial enterprise. Part of that operation includes minimizing those losses, both through legal (prosecuting those who steal) and business changes (like not leaving 500 bucks worth of product at the door without a camera).

 

Currently most publishing houses are going overboard on the DRM and ending up driving people to think that as pirates they're being robin hood (and HellKitty, they're robbing from the rich and cracking the game so the poor can get it) because they're fighting draconian business practices. Are they right? I'm... on the fence.

 

On one hand I can see where they're coming from. They feel they have no real way to "fight the power" because of how the entertainment industry works. People dislike Ubisoft's draconian DRM, but still buy the game because they want to be able to keep up with Assassins Creed and not have everyone around them telling stories about it and feel left out. So, they decide to do a hybrid, still get the game and feel like they're doing something to "fight the power.

 

On the other hand, they are in fact stealing, but it's more akin to petty theft rather than anything really prosecutable. Which is why we end up with people being charged with a zillion counts of theft to actually get the dollar amount into a position where it's prosecutable.

 

I have a question for those of you in this thread who are opposing software piracy so vehamently:

Is it ok for there to be second hand retail of those same games by gamestop and other outlets?

 

I ask this because one of your major points is that the developers and publisher get no money for pirated copies beyond the original one store bought by the first pirate. And yet, in the case of the second hand sales, it's the exact same thing, the same disk can be bought and sold a thousand times and earn gamestop 10,000 times the amount of money as was originally worth, and the publisher would only see the one sale. So if there is a difference that makes the second hand sales not receive your holy wrath, what is it?

[Hell Kitty]

(and HellKitty, they're robbing from the rich and cracking the game so the poor can get it)

 

No they're not, they're cracking games so anyone can get them, rich or poor, it doesn't matter. And they don't only crack games that come from rich publishers/developers, they crack everything they can. Look at the Humble Indie Bundle - people could pay as little as they wanted with the money going to charity and still it was pirated up the wahzoo.

[Calax]

I was thinking more the ones who consider themselves robin hoods. The ones for the indie bundle are just the ones who crack because they can.

[mkreku]

They have a strict policy of admit to piracy - get banned. It's worked pretty well so far.

Hey, feel ready to share a picture of your gigantic games library now? No?

 

So on "gaf", if you're a pirate and is honest about it, you get banned, but if you're a pirate and a liar, like you, you're home free?

 

That gaf place sounds lovely.

[Hell Kitty]

I was thinking more the ones who consider themselves robin hoods.

 

Those people are fools. I can at least respect the honesty of those who offer no excuses and instead admit they just won't pay for something when they can get it for free. As Cantousent points out, what has been offered up in this thread are self serving statements concocted after the fact. I'm told that piracy isn't a big deal and has no negative effect because they wouldn't have bought it anyway, but the robin-hood-stickin'-it-to-the-man protest-piracy only makes sense if you believe piracy does have an effect. Then again, maybe it really isn't so bad stealing ice cream if it's ridiculously over-priced.

[Purkake]

They have a strict policy of admit to piracy - get banned. It's worked pretty well so far.

Hey, feel ready to share a picture of your gigantic games library now? No?

 

So on "gaf", if you're a pirate and is honest about it, you get banned, but if you're a pirate and a liar, like you, you're home free?

 

That gaf place sounds lovely.

At least a slightly better policy than what we have here.

[Malcador]

Not sure what good that policy does, well other that avoid panty-knotting - my post is deleted for a cracktro of all things ? Bah! it's 8-bit esque audio

 

No they're not, they're cracking games so anyone can get them, rich or poor, it doesn't matter. And they don't only crack games that come from rich publishers/developers, they crack everything they can. Look at the Humble Indie Bundle - people could pay as little as they wanted with the money going to charity and still it was pirated up the wahzoo.

 

Two different groups there, that bundle was DRM free so people just downloaded it without paying rather than actually cracking anything. Maybe some of the scene groups think they're doing this to stick it to The Man, though.

 

Ah Iron Lore, that thread post teeters on bitter whinging, but he does make some good points, I found this bit kind of amusing

 

One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time

 

Hard to tell an actual crash as opposed to a copy protection failure, so no wonder.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Malcador

[sorophx]

the policy here is what makes this board really great. the only other big forum, that is somewhat close in greatness, is the Firefall one, where there's only 1 moderator

[Hurlshort]

Edit : It is condescending and moralist to tell younger that they will regret pirating games. I'm 34, I've never pirated any game nor downloaded illegally music because I either had no money so no computer at all or I had money to buy a computer and thus bought games too. But I don't see where the moral takes place here. Do you follow the law because of your moral or because you think that following laws is part of integration inside a society ? If this is because of moral, then you have a very strange moral, indeed.

 

Um, I follow the law because of my morals, not to fit in with society. I'm not sure how that is strange. My argument was meant to be moralistic, that is kind of the point. I've already apologized if it sounded condescending.

 

But you are supporting one of the basic arguments against piracy that many of us have gone on about. If you can afford a PC, you can probably swing some money for a game.

[Thorton_AP]

If you download freely the software to run WoW, there is no issue with the actors of production since it's by a monthly fee they get paid.

 

Actually World of Warcraft still requires you to buy the game before playing it as well (something I've never been a huge fan of, but wasn't a deal breaker for me).

[Zoraptor]

They have a strict policy of admit to piracy - get banned. It's worked pretty well so far.

Hey, feel ready to share a picture of your gigantic games library now? No?

 

So on "gaf", if you're a pirate and is honest about it, you get banned, but if you're a pirate and a liar, like you, you're home free?

 

That gaf place sounds lovely.

At least a slightly better policy than what we have here.

Heh.

 

If you posted the stuff you have on AP at many other developer owned boards (and the manner in which you do so coupled with throwing around "bitter tangents" and "h8rs gonna.." whenever someone has the temerity not to like something that you do) then well, you'd have been banned in some places long ago. So let's just be glad for the relatively enlightened stance here, yes? and not dream dreams of cherrypicking eLaws which suit our unique biases, yes?

 

In any case banning people for admitting piracy is just burying your head in the sand.

[Purkake]

Speaking of AP, there was a guy who was actively advocating pirating it and even he remained unbanned.

[Orogun01]

I don't know what this has to do with what I posted, it certainly doesn't answer the question.

 

Nor do you whine about them, that only makes you look weak. Who decides the difference between legitimate discussion concerning piracy and whining? Given your claim that "they shouldn't even be acknowledging them as the problem" I take it you think any and all comments are whining.

 

"It's perfectly fine for me to take your product for free, this isn't a problem and I don't like it when you claim otherwise, so I'll just accuse you of being greedy and whiney." The problem here isn't the publishers, it's the attitude of the freeloaders. They'll insist that it's up to the publishers to offer them a better deal they are willing to pay for, but how do you compete with free? Their unwillingness to pay for the game they want is the problem.

 

try to improve either their DRM or their market tactics. They do. Back when I started gaming you had things like code wheels and now we've got stuff like internet activation. Along with physical goodies like figurines found in the box we've got in-game preorder bonuses. Of course all this is stuff people whine about, but I guess it's okay for gamers to whine. Consumers (though perhaps not buyers) are allowed to bitch and moan all they want, but the businesses have to shut up and take it.

 

Anyway, back in the days of the Amiga over half of my games were pirated. I had a list from some guy and I'd send him a bunch of disks noting the game I wanted and he'd send copies back. I don't even remember how I met him, he was just my supplier of free games. At some point (in my PC days, once the Amiga was well and truly dead) is just didn't make sense. I coud afford to pay so I did. I'm 31.*

 

* I don't see the big issue with revealing one's age, but then even a 20 year old knows it's silly to insist that his views won't change in 10 or 20 years.

 

They decide when their comments become complaints, there is tone to writing and one can easily infer whining in a lot of anti-piracy. Companies are frustrated that they are losing money and that shows on their comments.They should not be focusing on the people who they have no control over and focus on their product and DRM that they do.

 

But it's now that piracy has become a noticeable problem despite all the modern DRM, so they are not working. Gamers are not a corporation of whom a certain manner is expected from, one gamer whining hardly causes concern. One company whining and saying that their response to piracy is to hurt the gamer is.

 

People change from 20 to 30 or rather their situation changes, they get jobs, leave the nest and go out into society as full members. A big change from not being able to fend for yourself, having odd jobs to pay for school/supplies, and borrowing money from family.

[Hell Kitty]

They decide when their comments become complaints

 

Lol, no. A company who complains about piracy never thinks of their comments as whining, nor do the gamers who bitch and moan whenever companies mention piracy.

 

I infer a lot of whining in those who complain about the harsh lives of poor people and their struggle in choosing between necessary essentials and luxury items.

 

They should not be focusing on the people who they have no control over and focus on their product and DRM that they do.

 

These things are not two seperate issues, DRM exists because people pirates their products.

 

Gamers are not a corporation of whom a certain manner is expected from

 

There absolutely are expectations from consumers. Like paying for the items you want rather than stealing/copying them.

 

One company whining and saying that their response to piracy is to hurt the gamer is.

 

No company has ever said that they'll respond to piracy by hurting the gamer, but gamers often feel hurt by things they say or do. CD Projekt will include no DRM in The Witcher 2, and have announced plans at attempting to go after only those who steal from them, and still there are people whining.

 

People change from 20 to 30 or rather their situation changes, they get jobs, leave the nest and go out into society as full members. A big change from not being able to fend for yourself, having odd jobs to pay for school/supplies, and borrowing money from family.

 

Yeah, I believe this was pretty much hurlshot's point.

[Orogun01]

Lol, no. A company who complains about piracy never thinks of their comments as whining, nor do the gamers who bitch and moan whenever companies mention piracy.

 

I infer a lot of whining in those who complain about the harsh lives of poor people and their struggle in choosing between necessary essentials and luxury items.

Their folly then. As a company they should watch what they say and "how" they say just because it's going to be scrutinized by the whole world.

 

These things are not two seperate issues, DRM exists because people pirates their products.

Like I said in my previous post, they can't control the actions of pirates only their own.

 

There absolutely are expectations from consumers. Like paying for the items you want rather than stealing/copying them.

What makes them consumer is that they buy the product not steal it, robbers aren't consumers. Consumers are costumers and the customer is always right (since he's paying for a service)

 

No company has ever said that they'll respond to piracy by hurting the gamer, but gamers often feel hurt by things they say or do. CD Projekt will include no DRM in The Witcher 2, and have announced plans at attempting to go after only those who steal from them, and still there are people whining.

CD Projeckt had that horrible Tages DRM for the first Witcher, caused a boatload of problems the most grave people unable to play their games and constant crashes because of Tages security. They learned their lesson, Ubisoft did the same thing with AC2 that actually screwed the ones that bought the game more than the ones that downloaded the cracked version.

Yeah, I believe this was pretty much hurlshot's point.

Agreed.

[Hell Kitty]

Their folly then. As a company they should watch what they say and "how" they say just because it's going to be scrutinized by the whole world.

 

It's true that a company needs to be careful what it says publicly, but it's not their fault that some gamers automatically dismiss anything and everything they say on the issue. I first responded to you in this thread because you claimed that companies only "chant against piracy" because they are greedy. Then you claimed they shouldn't publicly discuss piracy at all. This is irrational, and it's not their fault that you insult them and want them to remain silent.

 

It's common for the perpetrators of crime to blame the victim, but it's not right.

 

Like I said in my previous post, they can't control the actions of pirates only their own.

 

DRM is an attempt at controling the pirates, to stop them from taking their product without paying. You can't separate attempts at stopping or limiting piracy from the pirates themselves, the two go hand in hand.

 

What makes them consumer is that they buy the product not steal it, robbers aren't consumers.

 

Pirates are indeed consumers because by playing the game, they are consuming the product. They're just consumers that aren't willing to pay.

 

Consumers are costumers and the customer is always right (since he's paying for a service)

 

"The customer is always right" doesn't literally mean that everything the customer says, thinks, or does is correct. It means you want to keep you customer happy by giving them what they want, which isn't always possible because people can be irrational. Back when my sister worked in a Lush store, a woman came in and asked for a particular product. When my sister told her the item was discontinued some time ago, the woman got angry and called her a liar and demanded she be given what she wanted. In this situation the customer is most definitely not right.

[Calax]

The customer is always right (since he's paying for a service)

Except when he's wrong.

[Orchomene]

Edit : It is condescending and moralist to tell younger that they will regret pirating games. I'm 34, I've never pirated any game nor downloaded illegally music because I either had no money so no computer at all or I had money to buy a computer and thus bought games too. But I don't see where the moral takes place here. Do you follow the law because of your moral or because you think that following laws is part of integration inside a society ? If this is because of moral, then you have a very strange moral, indeed.

 

Um, I follow the law because of my morals, not to fit in with society. I'm not sure how that is strange. My argument was meant to be moralistic, that is kind of the point. I've already apologized if it sounded condescending.

 

But you are supporting one of the basic arguments against piracy that many of us have gone on about. If you can afford a PC, you can probably swing some money for a game.

 

Excuse me if I wasn't clear : I'm against piracy because this cuts the pay for the developers, designers and producers. But I don't find that anti-piracy politics are good. I think the best solution is finding another to get paid for the work involved in the creation of the software.

[mkreku]

Use a carrot, not a whip.

[Maria Caliban]

I once downloaded a No-CD crack for Dreamfall because it won't run on Vista any other way. I know a few people who were never able to properly download and authorize the Dragon Age DLC until they got a pirated version. Even a year after release, the tech support forum gets threads about the exact same problem.

 

One of the things I like about Steam is that most of its games come with an off-line mode. For about five months after I set it up, my net connection would drop for 1-3 hours every couple of days. I never had any problem starting a single-player game of L4D2 though.

 

If I had been playing AC 2 instead? Or Starcraft 2?

 

Yes, pirating is bad in general, but I am sometimes sympathetic to those who do so.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Maria Caliban

[Orogun01]

It's true that a company needs to be careful what it says publicly, but it's not their fault that some gamers automatically dismiss anything and everything they say on the issue. I first responded to you in this thread because you claimed that companies only "chant against piracy" because they are greedy. Then you claimed they shouldn't publicly discuss piracy at all. This is irrational, and it's not their fault that you insult them and want them to remain silent.

 

It's common for the perpetrators of crime to blame the victim, but it's not right.

The Alpha Male doesn't need to prove that it's the alpha male; to put it in perspective I'll use an analogy. If you saw an adult fighting a child over the fact that the child threw him a cake, who would you side with? The kid did wrong but the adult being the bigger party has to act the part and behave properly (look for the parents and expect them to punish their child)

Same way, a company taking on a bunch of teenagers seems like an adult taking on a child even if they are right to do so.

DRM is an attempt at controling the pirates, to stop them from taking their product without paying. You can't separate attempts at stopping or limiting piracy from the pirates themselves, the two go hand in hand.

 

Pirates are indeed consumers because by playing the game, they are consuming the product. They're just consumers that aren't willing to pay.

 

No it's not, DRM effect is directed towards their product which in turn has an effect on anyone who consumes it. But the fact remains that it's focused on the product; which it's under their control, and not the consumer who they'll never be able to.

The only customer is a paying customer, pirates are thieves and they should not be counted as a target demographic.

 

"The customer is always right" doesn't literally mean that everything the customer says, thinks, or does is correct. It means you want to keep you customer happy by giving them what they want, which isn't always possible because people can be irrational. Back when my sister worked in a Lush store, a woman came in and asked for a particular product. When my sister told her the item was discontinued some time ago, the woman got angry and called her a liar and demanded she be given what she wanted. In this situation the customer is most definitely not right.

Agreed, but the focus of the discussion was the distinction of customer and pirate. Sorry about your sister but she is irrelevant to this topic.

[Nightshape]

We all know that it will most likely not hurt EA's bottomline, but in their view, it's a just cause...

 

BS. Like most of the stuff that you drone on about.