KotOR MMO epic fail?

[Oblarg]

SW:TOR is going to be crap. This has been overwhelmingly obvious for a very long period of time.

 

It has? How?

 

The design goal is flawed. They want a single-player RPG that they can charge a monthly subscription for, so they inevitably ended up with something that looks like a clunky half-cRPG half-MMO monstrosity.

 

Color me stupid but I don't see what you're proposing the problem is. MMO's share many features of single player RPGs?

 

No, they don't - MMOs are fundamentally different than single play cRPGs because the emphasis of the game is on interaction with other players and character building rather than on moving through the plot. BioWare knows that their fanbase wants an in-depth single player story, because that's what the KotOR series is based on. However, they also need to include some MMOish aspects to justify charging people $15 a month to play it. The result is a cluster**** of incompatible ideas.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Activision had said it would take $ 1 billion to replicate WoW (admittedly that's a load of crap) and EA has said TOR is the most expensive game by far they've ever made. Add to that their ridiculous overpayment when they bought Bio/Pandemic, the known huge size of TOR team, the number of years in development, and $300 million doesn't sound incredible at all, especially since single player GTA 4 cost more than $100 million, and that's a couple of years ago.

[TheHarlequin]

SW:TOR is going to be crap. This has been overwhelmingly obvious for a very long period of time.

 

It has? How?

 

The design goal is flawed. They want a single-player RPG that they can charge a monthly subscription for, so they inevitably ended up with something that looks like a clunky half-cRPG half-MMO monstrosity.

 

Color me stupid but I don't see what you're proposing the problem is. MMO's share many features of single player RPGs?

 

No, they don't - MMOs are fundamentally different than single play cRPGs because the emphasis of the game is on interaction with other players and character building rather than on moving through the plot. BioWare knows that their fanbase wants an in-depth single player story, because that's what the KotOR series is based on. However, they also need to include some MMOish aspects to justify charging people $15 a month to play it. The result is a cluster**** of incompatible ideas.

 

Even if I liked Star Wars and was interested in this MMO this would be my biggest issue and concern. I totally agree with your analysis of what the end result will be. Well said.

[Thorton_AP]

I like how the one place artists can express themselves in an MMO is with /dance haha.

[Tale]

I have to say his anaylsis is nonse. Single player games regularly excell at aspects more associated with MMOs such as sandboxing and character development. And the more traditional singleplayer aspects are what made WoW successful, such as casual play. The narrative inclusions and structures have only made WoW stronger, such as the phasing system, which is a system ToR sounds like it wants to abuse massively.

 

The melding of a strong narrative to an MMO is far from incompatible. The question is more whether the scope they are aiming for and the needs of MMOs are within their skills.

 

It's an immensely ambitious project. Which alone makes it risky without having to make up conflicts about the actual style of the game.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Tale

[Hurlshort]

Lord of the Rings Online features a plot that you play through, and most single player RPG's feature character building. I'm not quite sure why you are sold on them not being able to work together. WoW has also been working towards a more solid narrative, wasn't that a key feature of Wrath of the Lich King? This sounds like you just have a problem with a monthly fee.

 

As for EALouse, the guy has very little real knowledge about TOR or Bioware. He worked on the Mythic side, quite clearly. He knows the details about WAR, which is pretty obviously a failure. EA is cutting its losses there, and he's part of that. He's upset, and I'll take his word on the Mythic stuff because WAR really did have major issues and all, but I think he's talking out his butt when it comes to TOR.

[Thorton_AP]

I think there's been some integration of Mythic into the TOR project (Louse mentions this as well), but some of the details he is probably just raging on about.

[Purkake]

On blues news a blog by a soon to be released EA employee posts that bioware had burned though over 300mil on the star wars mmo and aside from the voice over work there isn't much to be proud of. While one can say its a soon to be laid off employee lashing out its all emotion and no facts that's just as bad as blindly swallowing everything s/he says as well. Like most things in life the truth in a shade of gray. So even if only 50% true that does imply the mmo is in trouble. Interesting to say the least.

 

http://www.bluesnews.com/s/115064/ea-bashing

Well played, Harlequin, well played!

 

EDIT: Welcome to the dark side, Boo. We missed you.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Purkake

[meomao]

On blues news a blog by a soon to be released EA employee posts that bioware had burned though over 300mil on the star wars mmo and aside from the voice over work there isn't much to be proud of. While one can say its a soon to be laid off employee lashing out its all emotion and no facts that's just as bad as blindly swallowing everything s/he says as well. Like most things in life the truth in a shade of gray. So even if only 50% true that does imply the mmo is in trouble. Interesting to say the least.

 

http://www.bluesnews.com/s/115064/ea-bashing

 

The article to me seems more about how Mythic failed on Warhammer than anything else. At least when the guy speaks about Mythic he knows the thing first hand. He does not know anything about TOR... only that he wasn't choose to work for it, otherwise you would not ever seen that blog at all. Assuming that the guy is for real and not fake. And I'm afraid he is clearly fake, since an article like that means: end of your career. But for some people spitting on Bioware is funnier than cheking reality off course... btw, you are the one who said that DA2 was developed by a third party company, right?

Edited October 13, 2010 by meomao

[Kaftan Barlast]

I hope the MMO bombs, so they finally realise that it's not the golden goose they think it is. But even with a normal uneventful development, the chance of success for an MMO is small, so we dont really need to keep our fingers crossed.

[Meshugger]

Meh, never cared either way. Where's my KotOR III?

[Oblarg]

I have to say his anaylsis is nonse. Single player games regularly excell at aspects more associated with MMOs such as sandboxing and character development. And the more traditional singleplayer aspects are what made WoW successful, such as casual play. The narrative inclusions and structures have only made WoW stronger, such as the phasing system, which is a system ToR sounds like it wants to abuse massively.

 

The melding of a strong narrative to an MMO is far from incompatible. The question is more whether the scope they are aiming for and the needs of MMOs are within their skills.

 

It's an immensely ambitious project. Which alone makes it risky without having to make up conflicts about the actual style of the game.

 

The ultimate goal of the "casual" playing which you can do alone in WoW is to gain benefits in interactions with other players (either through PvP, raiding, etc). The main purpose of character building in a single player cRPG is to move your character through the plot. The two are fundamentally different ideas.

 

Adding to this is the fact that everyone in an mmo has to be "equal," to some extent. The player cannot be a big hero, because then you'd have a million big heroes running around, which dilutes the importance of your character's actions. The best you can hope for in MMO narrative is for each player to feel like they're playing a small part in a large event (which is how it was done in WoW, with a few exceptions made for hardcore raiders who did get to be the big hero at times). This, however, is a completely different approach to player involvement in the narrative than what KotOR (and other single player cRPGs) are based on - BioWare knows this, and knows that a large part of the enjoyment in KotOR came from playing the big hero, and thus has tried to combine two essentially incompatible ideas - that of the player being important, and that of the player being part of a large universe of other players - for the purpose of allowing them to make an MMO (which is much more profitable than a KotOR3 would be).

[mkreku]

So you're dismissing this person, who has been confirmed works/worked within EA, and everything he states, and instead opt to rely on your own opinions on how you think it is instead? Uh OK.

 

We'll see when it is released. I am sure Volourn will blow a wad over it no matter what, but I'm hoping normal people will see it for what it is, even if made by Bioware.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Adding to this is the fact that everyone in an mmo has to be "equal," to some extent. The player cannot be a big hero, because then you'd have a million big heroes running around, which dilutes the importance of your character's actions. The best you can hope for in MMO narrative is for each player to feel like they're playing a small part in a large event (which is how it was done in WoW, with a few exceptions made for hardcore raiders who did get to be the big hero at times). This, however, is a completely different approach to player involvement in the narrative than what KotOR (and other single player cRPGs) are based on - BioWare knows this, and knows that a large part of the enjoyment in KotOR came from playing the big hero, and thus has tried to combine two essentially incompatible ideas - that of the player being important, and that of the player being part of a large universe of other players - for the purpose of allowing them to make an MMO (which is much more profitable than a KotOR3 would be).

 

This is true. Bioware has a track record of big hero characters, and major sucking up to the PC (indeed it has been a constant and obnoxiously expanding feature ever since BG days). Doesn't really mesh well with the several million other heroes going through the same story.

 

@mkreku: funny isn't it? Even in his jaded state the man obviously has insider info.

[Tale]

Adding to this is the fact that everyone in an mmo has to be "equal," to some extent. The player cannot be a big hero, because then you'd have a million big heroes running around, which dilutes the importance of your character's actions. The best you can hope for in MMO narrative is for each player to feel like they're playing a small part in a large event (which is how it was done in WoW, with a few exceptions made for hardcore raiders who did get to be the big hero at times).

Utter bs.

 

Yes, you can have a million heroes running around. It's your personal context. It's called instances and phasing. They've been around for a while now. You can single handedly save the world/galaxy/whatever. Then they go into their instance and they do it, too. This isn't new. Even WoW had countless instances and quests that aren't raids. All important events were not exclusively in raids.

 

 

You can handle a narrative outside of raids in an MMO. In fact, it's been done. The conflict you think exists is an imagined one.

 

 

Maybe this revolves around your idea that MMOs are about being a part of a large universe of other players. Increasingly, many of them treat the universe as just the meeting ground. The other players influence on your narrative is unnecessary.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Tale

[RPGmasterBoo]

EDIT: Welcome to the dark side, Boo. We missed you.

 

By the dawn

And by the night when it is still

Your Lord has neither forsaken nor forgotten you.

 

Courtesy of the Quran, chapter 93.

[GhostofAnakin]

Meh, never cared either way. Where's my KotOR III?

 

This.

 

Though I will say I'm morbidly curious to see how BioWare goes about trying to pull off story driven content with an MMO. I'll have to read reviews, however, because a]I don't do much computer gaming anymore and thus no MMO for me, and b]I don't play games that make me pay a monthly charge.

[Volourn]

"We'll see when it is released. I am sure Volourn will blow a wad over it no matter what, but I'm hoping normal people will see it for what it is, even if made by Bioware."

 

Stop being a stupid troll you pathetic little boy. The fact you felt the need to personally attack me when I hadn't post in this thread shows how much of a troll you are.

 

Why would I care about KOTOR MMO. LMAO Espicially cosnideirng that both KOTORs are overrated.

 

As for the tool, he's a coward. He should have the guts to admit who he is and live by his words instead of hiding on the internet. That's pathetic.

 

As for the claims, it really doesn't matter if they're true, not true, half true, half false; it's irrelevant because none of us know for sure and this fellow is not a trustworthy source.

 

He was probably some dingaling minor dink who got passed on a promotion or his ideas were rejected. In essence, a big fat loser.

 

R00fles!

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

So suddenly an employee mentions that it's going to be awful, and then everyone notices it looks awful?

 

Not to gloat, but it doesn't take a genius to predict this game is going to fail. Beating WoW when it already has roughly 6 years of extra content added to it? Voicing every NPC in the game while ignoring the fact that all they'll say "Go kill 10 space rats"? Not to mention the game looks like a technical mess, with awful graphics and art direction everywhere.

[I want teh kotor 3]

Uhh... did anybody expect this NOT to happen? Bio does one thing very well: story/dialogue. Neither applies to MMOPOSes.

[Purkake]

EDIT: Welcome to the dark side, Boo. We missed you.

 

By the dawn

And by the night when it is still

Your Lord has neither forsaken nor forgotten you.

 

Courtesy of the Quran, chapter 93.

"METAL IS LIKE FLESH. BOTH CARRY POTENTIAL IN THEIR VEINS. WHEN TEMPERED WITH HEAT AND PRESSURE, THE POTENTIAL SURFACES."

 

-Coaxmetal, Planescape: Torment

[TheHarlequin]

On blues news a blog by a soon to be released EA employee posts that bioware had burned though over 300mil on the star wars mmo and aside from the voice over work there isn't much to be proud of. While one can say its a soon to be laid off employee lashing out its all emotion and no facts that's just as bad as blindly swallowing everything s/he says as well. Like most things in life the truth in a shade of gray. So even if only 50% true that does imply the mmo is in trouble. Interesting to say the least.

 

http://www.bluesnews.com/s/115064/ea-bashing

 

The article to me seems more about how Mythic failed on Warhammer than anything else. At least when the guy speaks about Mythic he knows the thing first hand. He does not know anything about TOR... only that he wasn't choose to work for it, otherwise you would not ever seen that blog at all. Assuming that the guy is for real and not fake. And I'm afraid he is clearly fake, since an article like that means: end of your career. But for some people spitting on Bioware is funnier than cheking reality off course... btw, you are the one who said that DA2 was developed by a third party company, right?

 

And I corrected myself on that point. Wow.. not allowed to be wrong? So you have never spoken in honest error before? Must be nice. At least I post links so ppl can look for themselves...

 

That aside your speaking to me as if trying to convince me... I couldn't care less if it crushes wow or fails completely or anything in between. But others do.

[Guest Slinky]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the fountain of happiness, the man who brings joy everywhere he goes, the one and only.... TheHarlequin!!!

[TheHarlequin]

On blues news a blog by a soon to be released EA employee posts that bioware had burned though over 300mil on the star wars mmo and aside from the voice over work there isn't much to be proud of. While one can say its a soon to be laid off employee lashing out its all emotion and no facts that's just as bad as blindly swallowing everything s/he says as well. Like most things in life the truth in a shade of gray. So even if only 50% true that does imply the mmo is in trouble. Interesting to say the least.

 

http://www.bluesnews.com/s/115064/ea-bashing

Well played, Harlequin, well played!

 

EDIT: Welcome to the dark side, Boo. We missed you.

 

Truth... bitter pill... etc...

[TheHarlequin]

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the fountain of happiness, the man who brings joy everywhere he goes, the one and only.... TheHarlequin!!!

 

So I am not spunking in my pants over this MMO and simply posting somewhat bitter pill news from a *gasp* news site makes me a big meanie? I'd suggest its you with the vested interest in the game that clearly has the issue with only wanting sunshine and roses to be discussed. Sorry to disappoint. *shrugs* its only a game.