Dragon Age 2

[Purkake]

Obsidian should ditch development and become a group of mercenary writers. If you have a writing problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the O-Team. *

*

 

 

I can already see a montage where the O-Team is locked in a basement for a weekend and have to write an interesting plot for Murder Simulator 3: The Murdering.

 

Edited July 12, 2010 by Purkake

[Morgoth]

Obsidian should ditch development and become a group of mercenary writers. If you have a writing problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the O-Team. *

*

 

 

I can already see a montage where the O-Team is locked in a basement for a weekend and have to write an interesting plot for Murder Simulator 3: The Murdering.

Reality of game decelopment works quite differently though.

[Purkake]

This might come as a shock, but I wasn't being entirely serious.

[Morgoth]

Oh.

 

 

I know

 

[Meshugger]

To be fair, you don't know yet if the dialog will be uninteresting or not.

 

You are right by principle. But i do not see anything that will simply break this trend unless they hire a new main writer.

 

Writers team is the same. If you found Dragon Age's writing completely uninteresting then I don't honestly see much hope for you.

 

Not completely uninteresting, rather missed potential and underdeveloped. I am a hopeless optimist, goddammit!

[Volourn]

"Do we really have to go through with the "commercial success=greatness, great quality"-argument again when both of us already know the damn answer do we? Do you really want that? Do you really want to debate in favour of banality and mediocrity as a mean for commercial success? Do you? Please repeat the record then. "

 

Read the post again. Read what i was replying to. Then read it again. Then come back again when you are willing to discuss things rationally.

 

 

"Obsidian should ditch development and become a group of mercenary writers."

 

Meh. Obsidian has done some great writing - MTOB writing was a wesome. KOTOR2 and NWN2 OC were slightly above average as well.

 

But, the existence of SOZ and AP shows that Obsidian can write some stinkers as well.

 

Afterall we all know being 'professional' means mocking someone being a janitor. L0L

 

Avellone is one of the best writers in the business (his work on FO2, PST, and MOTB proves this); but some stuff is pretty stinky.

 

 

P.S. i do find it funny that the same people whoa re bashing using the dialogue wheel in DA2 as a sign of dumbing down are the same people who praise AP's rather lacklustre writing.. which also uses a dialogue whel of sorts. L0LZ

 

Dialogue system will not determine the quality of writing. period.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

They will eventually; it's hard to get excited when your girlfriend still has all her clothes on.

Kids these days are marvelously uncreative.

 

 

am understanding that you were not intending to broach a serious issue, but we will respond as it applies to da2... and other games being developed. to continue, Gromnir does not recognize a decrease in child creativity compared to when we were young. however, we can fully understand why it would appear that kiddies lack the creativity o' the previous generation. children, and young adults, got similar creativity as folks from our generation, but kids nowadays gots a much more limited attention span. is much more difficult for kids to reveal their creativity if they can only concentrate on passive activities with brief durations. kids needs constant and active involvement or they lose focus. we recently sat in on a 11th grade english class at a local catholic high school... most students bound for UC or Ivy schools. we watched these bright kids struggle with a poetry exercise in which they were directed to develop and maintain a single image for as long as they could. 2 lines... maybe 3. the kids didn't even recognize when they had added a new image or lost hold of the original. very bright. very creative. limited focus.

 

...

 

am feeling some sympathy for authors and game developers who is creating media for the new generation o' purchasers... and we suspect that gamer attention is gonna continue to shrink. developers of crpgs will be tasked with creating rich stories and characters for an audience with 0 patience.

 

HA! Good Fun!

tl;dr

 

 

Also, I agree with Wrath-- the linked 'voiced PC' rant was kinda sad. One of the biggest things that DAO needed was some more personality. With a fairly cookie-cutter world, a blank slate protagonist, little in the way of plot-based mysteries, and no memorable antagonist, the game relies almost entirely on the JNPCs to hold the interest of the player in a narrative sense. Impinging on player freedom a little bit to inject some character by way of the PC is a plausible way to address this. It's not without its drawbacks, and it is perhaps not the best way to do so, but it also has some advantages.

 

one thing we thought were true misguided 'bout the linked rant were the attempted contrast with ps:t and tno. protagonists such as revan, sheppard and tno is very much not blank slates. in spite o' the cliche amnesia shtick, they got very detailed histories and a canned raison detre. tno even had a static appearance and his voiced lines, while few and far between, were done by a single actor. tno gots far more in common with revan and sheppard than he (being a "he" is just another aspect o' the static nature o' tno) gots in common with the bhaalspawn o' the bg games or the grey warden o' da. by utilizing tno to makes the ranter's point very much crippled the rant for Gromnir as it revealed a rather fundamental and glaring misunderstanding. tno = blank slate? hardly. am personally not a fan o' the sheppard, revan, tno approach... with TNO being arguably the most restrictive example. yeah, you end up with a potentially more compelling story, but you sacrifice considerable player freedom to imagine and define their character.

 

am tempted to makes a rant o' our own regarding the biowarian decision to leaves the ultimate antagonist of not only da:o, but also me2, ill-defined. many developers and boardies has had the misfortune o' reading Gromnir's long-winded posts regarding the importance o' villains in a crpg with necessarily vague protagonists. truth to tell, we is exhausted by such efforts, and more than a little saddened by the fact that the biowarians ignored an aspect o' interactive storytelling that should be so damned obvious. how does they make such a mistake... twice?

 

bah.

 

oh, and am gonna disagree with meshugger that the da dialogues were noticeably terrible. individual and collective lines o' da dialogue were written with competence and creativity... showed a good range o' intelligence, wit, and pathos. da had some excellent jnpcs that were brought to life via dialogues that revealed considerable craftsmanship. unfortunately, not all the jnpcs were fantabulous (which admittedly is a less than noteworthy criticism) and allister ended up being horrible

'less you 1) avoided romance, 2) let al kill loghain, and 3) let al sacrifice himself.

as a non-romance-able character, al were okie dokie... save for his tedious and tearful reflections o' duncan which were wasted as they did not actual make his ultimate actions seem plausible. regardless, for the most part, we approved of bio handling o' the npcs o' da, joinable and otherwise.

 

am conversely very critical and unconcerned regarding Epic fantasy plot. all fantasy plots is silly... especially as they is more fantastic and epic. am not gonna see us complain too much 'bout a fantasy plot, 'cause most such stuff is lame, and the larger the scope, the more ludicrous such plots necessarily become. even so, the biowarians did very little to keeps our attention focused on their plot chapters. the brood mother stuff were kinda intriguing, but is maybe ironic that the dwarf portion o' the game were the most grindy and tedious. demons and darkspawn... the demons had cliche motivations and plans, and the darkspawn were mindless. well shucks, am amazed that such adversaries produced uninspired plotlines.

 

have been wanting to see what bio did with awakenings, but we is waiting for a patch before playing. who woulda' thunk it would take more than 4 months to release a patch?

 

*shrug*

 

in any event, we can see why bio might be choosing to go back to a revan/sheppard protagonist as it is an easy way to deal with some o' the flaws in da... though we has 0 notion regarding the degree to which they is adopting a static protagonist model. our concern is that the biowarians is fixing without genuine recognizing the real problems.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 12, 2010 by Gromnir

[Monte Carlo]

Bio keep on trying to do new things with the CRPG genre and I applaud them for it. But they need to crap or get off the pot: do they want to make games that allow the player to enjoy themselves the way they want or do they want to lock them into Gaider's narrative with a few decisions centred on what equipment you buy or NPC girlfriend you choose?

 

It doesn't have to be a sandbox game. It doesn't have to be an interactive electronic novel. A bit like the porridge in the fairy tale, it is possible to get it just right.

[Meshugger]

"Do we really have to go through with the "commercial success=greatness, great quality"-argument again when both of us already know the damn answer do we? Do you really want that? Do you really want to debate in favour of banality and mediocrity as a mean for commercial success? Do you? Please repeat the record then. "

 

Read the post again. Read what i was replying to. Then read it again. Then come back again when you are willing to discuss things rationally.

 

Completely rational answer already given. If you disagree, then please give a direct retort.

[Orogun01]

Bio keep on trying to do new things with the CRPG genre and I applaud them for it. But they need to crap or get off the pot: do they want to make games that allow the player to enjoy themselves the way they want or do they want to lock them into Gaider's narrative with a few decisions centred on what equipment you buy or NPC girlfriend you choose?

 

It doesn't have to be a sandbox game. It doesn't have to be an interactive electronic novel. A bit like the porridge in the fairy tale, it is possible to get it just right.

This

[Gromnir]

It doesn't have to be a sandbox game. It doesn't have to be an interactive electronic novel. A bit like the porridge in the fairy tale, it is possible to get it just right.

 

is it?

 

following bg (the original,) one o' the most common complaints voiced on the boards were regarding the mindless mowing of largely empty maps. durlag's tower, from the totsc expansion, became the oft identified alternative to tedious bg1 map exploration.

 

following bg2, fans lamented the lack o' exploration.

 

...

 

go to codex or nma and listen to what the fo fans describe as Proper.

 

listen to the feedback on the da boards.

 

spend 15 minutes reading fo:nv posts on these boards.

 

dunno, "just right" were very different for momma, poppa and baby bear, no? finding a good balance is probably very elusive goal for developers.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 12, 2010 by Gromnir

[Monte Carlo]

I think you miss my point, Grom. Like I say, they need to get off the pot. If story-focussed, linear, pre-defined character driven games is their schtick then declare it. Don't bang on about choice and reactivity because we ain't buying it.

 

Balance depends on where you're standing on the see-saw I suppose... but you can try. It's difficult to make a perfect souffle, write an elegant short story, find a partner with whom you can dance a classic tango... all of these things are tough and people succeed. Given the success and talent at Bioware I'm sure they can do it but they need to tame David Gaider and remind him he's writing for a game, they ain't building a game for his writing. I quite like the man, from what I've seen and on the few occasions I've conversed with him, but he seems to forget his place in the fermament now and then.

 

Like on a movie, 'he's just the writer.'

[Monte Carlo]

following bg (the original,) one o' the most common complaints voiced on the boards were regarding the mindless mowing of largely empty maps.

 

Heresy like this needs to be expunged with sword and flame.

[Volourn]

"Balance depends on where you're standing on the see-saw I suppose... but you can try. It's difficult to make a perfect souffle, write an elegant short story, find a partner with whom you can dance a classic tango... all of these things are tough and people succeed. Given the success and talent at Bioware I'm sure they can do it but they need to tame David Gaider and remind him he's writing for a game, they ain't building a game for his writing. I quite like the man, from what I've seen and on the few occasions I've conversed with him, but he seems to forget his place in the fermament now and then."

 

He knows his place. He's a writer who works for BIO not for you. They tell him what to do and he does. Monteo carlo tells him what to do and he can ignore it. BIO apprarntly likes GGHaiders' way of doing things since he's been there for how long despite all the changes. He wins. You lose.

 

 

You calim in your own way that BIO hasn't balanced this sort of thing yet the evdience proves they have.

 

 

"Don't bang on about choice and reactivity because we ain't buying it. "

 

Except 'we' are. Over,a nd over again.

 

 

I remember people on these boards 9and eslewhere including the BIO boards) bashing people for the hype elading up to DA's release and how it would hurt sales.. yet, DA is BIO's most successful game to date abrring potentially ME2.

 

 

BIO: 1 MILLION

 

Knowitall Forum Posters: 0

[Gromnir]

following bg (the original,) one o' the most common complaints voiced on the boards were regarding the mindless mowing of largely empty maps.

 

Heresy like this needs to be expunged with sword and flame.

 

 

*chuckle*

 

when we says "one o' the most common complaints" we is actual understating. top 2... easy.

 

again, is not a matter of getting off the pot. they is trying to do what you ask... they is trying to make it "just right." doing what you ask is the core of the problem, 'cause there is no "just right" that will work for everybody or even most. "just right" is illusive and personal and varies a great deal, but bio insists on trying to find the perfect medium... which leaves everybody mildly dissatisfied.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Oblarg]

I care more about whether narrative is good than whether it is reactive.

 

DA:O's narrative was bad. It was bland, uninspired, and vapid, with utterly no character development from the blank slate you started as. The influence system makes your companions seem shallow and robs them of credibility (oh, you gave me a present, let me tell you about my life!). I'd gladly be shoehorned into one character if the result is a better story.

 

And they really have to rework the encounters, because I don't want any more "turn corner -> get swarmed by enemies -> reload save -> plan and then turn corner, killing enemies -> turn next corner, swarmed by enemies again, repeat." It was a chore to get through DA:O's levels.

[HoonDing]

And they really have to rework the encounters, because I don't want any more "turn corner -> get swarmed by enemies -> reload save -> plan and then turn corner, killing enemies -> turn next corner, swarmed by enemies again, repeat." It was a chore to get through DA:O's levels.

That's what I hated the most about the game. You couldn't even send a rogue ahead to scout like in an Infinity Engine game because you would just trigger an enemy spawn or scripted enemy behaviour.

[Wrath of Dagon]

To be fair, you don't know yet if the dialog will be uninteresting or not.

 

You are right by principle. But i do not see anything that will simply break this trend unless they hire a new main writer.

 

Writers team is the same. If you found Dragon Age's writing completely uninteresting then I don't honestly see much hope for you.

 

Not completely uninteresting, rather missed potential and underdeveloped. I am a hopeless optimist, goddammit!

That can be fixed, I'm a pessimist though

[Gromnir]

And they really have to rework the encounters, because I don't want any more "turn corner -> get swarmed by enemies -> reload save -> plan and then turn corner, killing enemies -> turn next corner, swarmed by enemies again, repeat." It was a chore to get through DA:O's levels.

That's what I hated the most about the game. You couldn't even send a rogue ahead to scout like in an Infinity Engine game because you would just trigger an enemy spawn or scripted enemy behaviour.

 

 

to be fair, many/most encounters did not result in a scripted warping of your party into danger if a stealthed rogue were being utilized to scout ahead. even so, there were more than a handful o' such encounters, and after the first couple times you were getting screwed by the triggers, you probably gave up on the scouting. bad design from bio.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Bos_hybrid]

Game Informer Presents Dragon Age 2

[Monte Carlo]

The concept art stinks, I mean it's really bad. The DA concept art was good, and generally I liked DAs art direction for what it was.

 

@ Vol, yes lots of folks will buy it anyway. I'm not sure this time, however, I will. DA:Awakenings will probably be the end of the road for me. As CRPGs have turned a page I've found myself playing more RTS and strategy games. I don't even miss CRPGs that much, TBH. If I feel the need I re-boot an old BG2 game or give NWN2 another spin.

 

It's not all bad news, as the wheel will turn and old-skool gaming models, more sand-boxy and free-form will return and gamers will be freed from the yoke of Fantasy Novel tyranny once more

 

Am looking forward, a great deal, to Diablo 2 (looking forward to seeing y'all on battle.net) and even Dungeon Siege 3... the cup is definitely half-full!

 

Cheers

MC

[Enoch]

Game Informer Presents Dragon Age 2

Why does the dude on the cover look like the guy from District 9 with one prawn arm?

[Amentep]

Game Informer Presents Dragon Age 2

Why does the dude on the cover look like the guy from District 9 with one prawn arm?

 

Looks like he's got one arm in armor and the other not to me.

[Enoch]

Armor that makes his hand look decidedly non-human.

[Amentep]

Or just looks stylized and clawy.