Skills or classes? Balance?

[Kunikos]

My problem playing DS1 and 2 was the completely broken skill system that punished players for playing with their desired skills of choice that weren't as powerful or using things as they were convenient (jack-of-all trades is a master of nerf).

 

Will DS3 have a skill system similar to DS1, or something similar to DS2 (I admit I forget the differences between the two), or something new?

 

My personal peeve is that it always seems like players who want to be a bad-ass dervish swordsman or walking tank juggernaught will always get shafted because ranged (playing keep-away) and magic (way more useful/creative) dominate most action-RPGs.

[Amentep]

I hope that the system they come up with is logically derived from what went on before, which AIUI was a class system (with DS1) or a class system with skills (in DS2)

 

I seem to recall magic in DS1 being a big pain (powerful, but a pain) because of switching spellbooks.

 

Given what little we know about the game at this time, its hard to say how they'll implement things. Hopefully they game will be balanced and fun however the player chooses to make their character.

[Humodour]

It should be easier to multi-class without penalty and with a unique experience. DS2 solved that. Good.

 

But I still agree that Dungeon Siege's class system is its weakest point. Please replace it Obsidian!

[Bos_hybrid]

I seem to recall magic in DS1 being a big pain (powerful, but a pain) because of switching spellbooks.

 

Was it D&D style(limited uses per day/rest) or more like an MMO(recharge timer).

[Humodour]

I seem to recall magic in DS1 being a big pain (powerful, but a pain) because of switching spellbooks.

 

Was it D&D style(limited uses per day/rest) or more like an MMO(recharge timer).

 

More recharge based. You had mana. But you also had near unlimited mana potions, so...

 

Not the most fun or tactical system around.

[Draganta]

The class system of Dungeon Siege 1 was the best. In 2, it was useless to go multiclass, because your skill points would develop very slowly. I hope the class system will remain the same, it is what makes it Dungeon Siege. I don't want to play with pre-defined classes, that concept is old now. I like the free class system like in DS1, even Dragon Age went a little bit that direction.

[HoonDing]

DS games don't even have a typical XP system, it's more a 'learn-by-doing' system like Elder Scrolls. XP is gained by casting spells, or hitting things with a sword or bow, IIRC.

 

Only difference between DS1 & 2 was that DS 2 introduced powers with cooldowns.

[Draganta]

DS games don't even have a typical XP system, it's more a 'learn-by-doing' system like Elder Scrolls. XP is gained by casting spells, or hitting things with a sword or bow, IIRC.

 

Isnt that with almost all RPGs? What other alternative EXP systems do you know?

[HoonDing]

Most RPGs give XP for killing monsters and solving quests. Not so with Elder Scrolls & DS, unless I'm remembering it wrong.

 

A warrior can cast a level 1 nature spell many times, and become a better nature mage, etc.

Edited June 10, 2010 by virumor

[Draganta]

Most RPGs give XP for killing monsters and solving quests. Not so with Elder Scrolls & DS, unless I'm remembering it wrong.

 

A warrior can cast a level 1 nature spell many times, and become a better nature mage, etc.

 

Ah true indeed, but IMO that isn't really a huge difference. Well except for the quest part. I don't really mind, both are OK. As long as they keep the four fighting skills, so we are free to develop our characters the way we want it, instead of pre-defined classes. I'm done with that.

[Humodour]

The class system of Dungeon Siege 1 was the best. In 2, it was useless to go multiclass, because your skill points would develop very slowly. I hope the class system will remain the same, it is what makes it Dungeon Siege. I don't want to play with pre-defined classes, that concept is old now. I like the free class system like in DS1, even Dragon Age went a little bit that direction.

 

DS2 with the expansion pack made multi-classing worth it. Multi-classing in and of itself isn't worth it within Dungeon Siege's class framework. However due to the ability/skill system introduced to complement it in DS2, the expansion pack was able to take that and create new skill sets for two multiclass options (combat mage/archer, and nature mage/fighter).

 

I'm not at all a fan of the system of improve-by-use, though. Perhaps something like Fallout's skill system would be best here, where you decide each level where to invest your skill points, and you can invest them in anything (no classes).

 

But we already know that DS3 contains classes, and not the fun Diablo type classes, so... poo.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Krezack

[Kissamies]

I'm not at all a fan of the system of improve-by-use, though. Perhaps something like Fallout's skill system would be best here, where you decide each level where to invest your skill points, and you can invest them in anything (no classes).

 

But we already know that DS3 contains classes, and not the fun Diablo type classes, so... poo.

I like the learn-by-doing system in theory, but in practice it's almost always too grindy, or encourages grinding too much. I'd like a hybrid system. You invest your skill points on level ups, but you also get discounts on skills you used most in the least level. If there's, for example, 10 skills, you could get discounts for 3 most used skills.

[Irrelevant]

Did anybody beat the first Dungeon Siege solo? I remenber trying to do so because that way I would get one really powerfull dude, but I remenber turning on the cheats and getting max potions.

[Humodour]

Did anybody beat the first Dungeon Siege solo? I remenber trying to do so because that way I would get one really powerfull dude, but I remenber turning on the cheats and getting max potions.

 

Hmmm. OK, I'll do that.

[Nathaniel Chapman]

I'm not at all a fan of the system of improve-by-use, though. Perhaps something like Fallout's skill system would be best here, where you decide each level where to invest your skill points, and you can invest them in anything (no classes).

 

But we already know that DS3 contains classes, and not the fun Diablo type classes, so... poo.

I like the learn-by-doing system in theory, but in practice it's almost always too grindy, or encourages grinding too much. I'd like a hybrid system. You invest your skill points on level ups, but you also get discounts on skills you used most in the least level. If there's, for example, 10 skills, you could get discounts for 3 most used skills.

 

Darklands had my personal favorite learn-by-doing system, because you had discrete gameplay chunks that you earned points at the end of, and the rewards weren't directly related to the amount of times you did them if I recall.

 

Either way, making basic stuff like Jumping part of a learn by doing system isn't good for gameplay, IMO, unless you are very careful about it.

 

Also, I'm wondering why you speculate 1) that we have classes 2) that, if we did, they wouldn't be fun classes?

[Oner]

Also, I'm wondering why you speculate 1) that we have classes?

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showt...t&p=1045639

[Humodour]

I'm not at all a fan of the system of improve-by-use, though. Perhaps something like Fallout's skill system would be best here, where you decide each level where to invest your skill points, and you can invest them in anything (no classes).

 

But we already know that DS3 contains classes, and not the fun Diablo type classes, so... poo.

I like the learn-by-doing system in theory, but in practice it's almost always too grindy, or encourages grinding too much. I'd like a hybrid system. You invest your skill points on level ups, but you also get discounts on skills you used most in the least level. If there's, for example, 10 skills, you could get discounts for 3 most used skills.

 

Darklands had my personal favorite learn-by-doing system, because you had discrete gameplay chunks that you earned points at the end of, and the rewards weren't directly related to the amount of times you did them if I recall.

 

Either way, making basic stuff like Jumping part of a learn by doing system isn't good for gameplay, IMO, unless you are very careful about it.

 

Also, I'm wondering why you speculate 1) that we have classes 2) that, if we did, they wouldn't be fun classes?

 

Square Enix press release: "Pick from unique and highly customizable character classes with a wide range of abilities to choose from"

 

I surmise that a learn-by-doing system would not be very fun, as is usually the case. Prove me wrong?

 

One idea I had is to make learn-by-doing fun is to allow the player to elect what class or skillset they want to improve, and then allow all 'doing' (improvement/xp gain) to improve that class or skillset, until the player changes which one he wants to improve in.

 

E.g. if player says he wants to be an archer, then all sword-fighting or spellcasting done from there on improves his archer skillset. Until he decides he wants to be a fighter, at which point all actions start improving melee instead.

 

The benefit of the system is that the player isn't painfully restricted to one way of playing the game, it allows a lot of variety, while still specialising the player over time.

[Tigranes]

That's not really a learn by doing system though. That's exactly the same as saying "gain xp to level up, levels give you ability points, spend them on whatever you like".

 

[Amentep]

The problem with a learn by doing system is that they typically allow you to abuse the system by "doing" something repetitively (this in particular favors spamming healing or buffs but can also devolve into whack-a-mole for melee characters as well).

 

Not sure how to solve this problem and still have it be learn-by doing unless their is some form of "law of diminishing returns" built into the system.

[Hassat Hunter]

In DS2 you got XP per defeated enemy in your "active" attack.

 

So mass spamming healing did nothing, or being a nature mage didn't let you drop 10 levels behind (as in DS1). Everything got evingly spread amongst the team (which would be nice for Co-op gameplay, no?)

[Wombat]

Darklands had my personal favorite learn-by-doing system, because you had discrete gameplay chunks that you earned points at the end of, and the rewards weren't directly related to the amount of times you did them if I recall.

It sounds something similar to Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying system, which is, probably, the oldest learn-by-doing system. If the player is successful in a skill check during a session, at the end of the session, the player gets a chance to add points to the skill in question. Alternatively, if the character has enough time till his/her next adventure and money, he/she can spend his/her time on training a certain skills. In this system, there is little point in using skills repeatedly but the problem is, I wonder how it can be well translated into CRPG, though. For, such skill systems tend to be "realistic" and slow in terms of the character advancement (In fact, most of the skill developments are decided by the backgrounds of the characters during character creation) that there are no way to catch up the seed of 90's CRPGs, not to mention modern games.

[Humodour]

At that time, the players through the use of the sword, his sword fighting skills improved as. Sounds logical - But there, Urquhart, "most of the players had tried all times, there was not a very interesting hero".

 

In Dungeon Siege 3 will be any different: players get to cut down the monsters of experience points, and select a level of self-promotion, what skills they want to improve.

 

To quote a translation of one of the funcroc-found previews.

 

This sounds like the learn by doing system is gone, and has been replaced by something similar to IWD2 or 3e D&D's class system. You have level-ups, and you can multiclass freely.

 

I'm a happy camper!

[HoonDing]

Sounds Divine Divinity/Titan Quest like.

[Spider]

If it's anything like TQ, I'm extremely happy. best character system in any action rpg I've played.

[Trebushido]

Any word on companions? could you party with anyone or are there specific classes that will join you. It would be neat if you can just bring in a farmer that has no clue how to fight, but with your company he/she could get powerful and aid you. Rather than a selective few ala Diablo 3. Also a party of 8 is always sick!