alanschu Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Virmire revisited? Ok, ok. I'm stopping now... There's already released gameplay footage of party members turning on you at the Urn. Imagine if those party members were your highest level. Now suddenly the game player has to decide "do I do what I want my character to do, or do I metagame and not do it, because I can't afford to be without those party members lest the game becoming too difficult?"
213374U Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 There's already released gameplay footage of party members turning on you at the Urn. Imagine if those party members were your highest level. Now suddenly the game player has to decide "do I do what I want my character to do, or do I metagame and not do it, because I can't afford to be without those party members lest the game becoming too difficult?"Are you suggesting that this is a dev gimmick to prevent metagaming? Because I get the feeling this is a dev gimmick to minimize, at worst, the piss-off factor of writing railroading, and at best, the consequences of poorly made choices. Sarevok and others had some chance to turn on the player in the final confrontation of ToB. The player could find ways to metagame around that but... so what? The line between metagaming and cheating is fine indeed, but that's irrelevant because it's a strictly single player game we're talking about. If people want to metagame or use cheat codes... who cares? It's their own enjoyment of the game they are compromising, not mine. This is no big deal because I can always forget about NPCs back at the camp. But I still don't understand why. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
alanschu Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Are you suggesting that this is a dev gimmick to prevent metagaming? I'm suggesting that it's a better solution to have NPCs at camp still gain some XP, instead of having the Players Actions lead to NPCs getting pissed at you and leaving your party or attacking you resulting in your playthrough becoming severely handicapped (read: impossible to proceed) because your best NPCs are no longer an option and you didn't bother playing with other NPCs. In other words, the player would be left with no other option but to reload prior to the NPCs abandoning/attacking you, and make an active choice in the game that is NOT the choice that the player actually wants to make.
213374U Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) I'm going to trust you on the "impossible to proceed" thing, because you have actually played the game and I haven't. It's hard to think of a recent BIO game that puts the player in a situation that's worse than having your tank (Sarevok) turn on you for the fight with Melissan, though. I have to say, having the player's actions result in massive NPC hate which in turn leads to their deaths sounds awesome... shame they watered down the consequences. Edited October 21, 2009 by 213374U - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
alanschu Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 I'd be much less critical of it happening if the Urn event happened right at the end of the game, since then it'd be one fight (like Sarevok turn, or the turn of several characters in NWN2). To have to proceed through possibly half the game with a level 12 character that has level 2 NPC party members would be really freaking difficult. Unless combat was balanced for this situation, which would make it really easy. Sure you might be okay with slogging through that difficulty, but others aren't. And when they get frustrated, rather than continue to play the game they'll just drop it.
213374U Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) To have to proceed through possibly half the game with a level 12 character that has level 2 NPC party members would be really freaking difficult. Unless combat was balanced for this situation, which would make it really easy.Couldn't that be easily solved by an exponential XP-level curve? You'd have a hard time for maybe two hours after the confrontation, but your new companions would catch up pretty quick. Just thinking aloud here. Edited October 21, 2009 by 213374U - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
aries101 Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 On the ongoing debate about the NPC back at camp gaining experience, too - I like it. This means that any party members we leave behind back at camp can still be brought into battle - even in the end-game. And anything that looks easy on isn't necessarily easy to do -and will probably just cause more zombie kittens to be made On a different, yet related subject, On the Spot at Gamespot showed some PS3 footage for this game. http://www.gamespot.com/ The bit about Dragon Age: Origins starts at around 7:00 and last for about 7-8 minutes. At the end of the DA: thing, one of the guys, goes around in a Grey Warden outfit in a store, saying that this is the greatesr rpg ever! Pre-order items, he's also talking about. Please support http://www.maternityworldwide.org/ - and save a mother giving birth to a child. Please support, Andrew Bub, the gamerdad - at http://gamingwithchildren.com/
Atom523 Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Well on the subject of gaining xp in the camp, I think it could be solved very easily. All you need is a gameplay mechanic that encourages you to take people out of camp. I remember playing a game whose name i forget that enabled characters to gain both XP and battle points or something. If they fought in the party they would be able to gain unique abilities that made them stronger and more capable, however when they weren't in the party they never gained those points. Therefore they would be at a similar level as your normally used characters but they wouldn't have the extra abilities and thus be less effective when it came to later fights. If Dragon Age used a similar method then players could choose to ignore certain characters but if one or two of their best people told the PC to "shove off" and you are stuck with some of the characters you didn't use before they aren't useless but at the same time they aren't as good as those who you used all the time. It would encourage players to give even lesser liked characters a chance on the battlefield if only to earn them some of their unique abilities as a safety net and also reduce reloads if their suped up characters left. As the player knows that with a little hard work and devotion even their in camp people could actually be of some use while not being a liability due to low level.
Nepenthe Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 On a different, yet related subject, On the Spot at Gamespot showed some PS3 footage for this game. http://www.gamespot.com/ Sigh. In theory, I'm ecstatic, in practice, this is a direct continuation to a [redacted] day: it could be the PSP version with the stream compression I have going on. Reminds me of the 'could you look blockier?' comic on xkcd. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions
Gfted1 Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 So lets summarize: 1) The inability to die unless there is a TPW is cool with everyone because death is an inconvenience that everyone just reloads through anyway. 2) C&C is just a catchphrase that has absolutely no meaning because who cares if you piss off / kill your entire party, theres an entire camp of fully leveled NPC's happily waiting in camp for you to use. Also, C&C is an inconvenience and otherwise everyone would just reload instead of, you know, thinking about their actions. Also, Im curious, what happens to the NPC's that the protagonist himself slays? Do they pop tall when you leave the screen? "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
alanschu Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 2) C&C is just a catchphrase that has absolutely no meaning because who cares if you piss off / kill your entire party, theres an entire camp of fully leveled NPC's happily waiting in camp for you to use. Yes, that's exactly it I mean, it's just good game design to permanently handicap the game player, undoubtedly rendering it frustrating for some to the point where they either conclude that they can't make the choice they want to make in the game, or just give up on the game entirely. A more astute summary would be that the people here are just upset because rather than forcing others to play the game the way they want to play it, they are forced to play it the way others want to. Also, Im curious, what happens to the NPC's that the protagonist himself slays? Do they pop tall when you leave the screen? They die. Figured this was obvious but I guess not.
Wrath of Dagon Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 So lets summarize: 1) The inability to die unless there is a TPW is cool with everyone because death is an inconvenience that everyone just reloads through anyway. 2) C&C is just a catchphrase that has absolutely no meaning because who cares if you piss off / kill your entire party, theres an entire camp of fully leveled NPC's happily waiting in camp for you to use. Also, C&C is an inconvenience and otherwise everyone would just reload instead of, you know, thinking about their actions. Also, Im curious, what happens to the NPC's that the protagonist himself slays? Do they pop tall when you leave the screen? C&C shouldn't be "I did what I thought my character would do, now I can't finish the game so I have to restart" The ones in the camp are lower level, so you do take a hit. Everything is a compromise, the question is what's more optimal? "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Purkake Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) So lets summarize: 1) The inability to die unless there is a TPW is cool with everyone because death is an inconvenience that everyone just reloads through anyway. 2) C&C is just a catchphrase that has absolutely no meaning because who cares if you piss off / kill your entire party, theres an entire camp of fully leveled NPC's happily waiting in camp for you to use. Also, C&C is an inconvenience and otherwise everyone would just reload instead of, you know, thinking about their actions. Also, Im curious, what happens to the NPC's that the protagonist himself slays? Do they pop tall when you leave the screen? Much hate I sense in you. Some people seem to be looking for reasons to hate it. Can't you wait for a week and then hate the parts that actually suck? Edited October 21, 2009 by Purkake
Monte Carlo Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 I'm with gfted1 anyhow. Maybe you should get rewarded for completing key stage battles without dying, maybe there's an extra bit of loot lying around. Personally, I hate the camp idea, with these NPCs lounging around some notional campsite, following in your wake.
Gfted1 Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 2) C&C is just a catchphrase that has absolutely no meaning because who cares if you piss off / kill your entire party, theres an entire camp of fully leveled NPC's happily waiting in camp for you to use. Yes, that's exactly it I mean, it's just good game design to permanently handicap the game player, undoubtedly rendering it frustrating for some to the point where they either conclude that they can't make the choice they want to make in the game, or just give up on the game entirely. A more astute summary would be that the people here are just upset because rather than forcing others to play the game the way they want to play it, they are forced to play it the way others want to. If the player is stupid, he should be handicapped. Just like killing everone in town (stupid) will handicap you. There is no actual "consequence" in your "choice" if you can just replace NPC's via a camp that you carry with you. Also, Im curious, what happens to the NPC's that the protagonist himself slays? Do they pop tall when you leave the screen? They die. Figured this was obvious but I guess not. Yes, obvious because theres no other way to die. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Purkake Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 So you're expecting it to be BG2? Sorry, but things have changed, if you don't set your expectations to match, be prepared to get disappointed, a lot.
Gfted1 Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 So you're expecting it to be BG2? No, not particularly, it just seems like a lot of hot air. Tell me, how exactly could a person lose this game. Is it even possible to lose? If you cant die and it doesnt matter who you kill its just god mode. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Purkake Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 (edited) Is the game worthless if you can't lose? I'm playing games for the experience, not for a virtual pat on the back because I beat it. Edited October 21, 2009 by Purkake
HoonDing Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Is the game worthless if you can't lose? It's dark fantasy. It's all about losing. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Purkake Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Gifted1, maybe you could consider it losing when the games makes you go back to cutting again?
Oner Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Okay, let's say at that urn thingy we kill off Alistair and Leliana. So we go to camp and realize: Oh shi-, I hate every other NPC and have to listen to these from here on out! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Talk about C&C. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Monte Carlo Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 I think the default hardcore mode is player + dog. It's the only way to fly.
HoonDing Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Okay, let's say at that urn thingy we kill off Alistair and Leliana. So we go to camp and realize: Oh shi-, I hate every other NPC and have to listen to these from here on out! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Talk about C&C. Wait... is it possible to spontaneously kill NPCs? Not just by ticking them off by destroying holy urns or strangling their grandmother? The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Gfted1 Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Gifted1, maybe you could consider it losing when the games makes you go back to cutting again? Cutting like I cut myself? Dont be an a$$hole. Okay, let's say at that urn thingy we kill off Alistair and Leliana. So we go to camp and realize: Oh shi-, I hate every other NPC and have to listen to these from here on out! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Talk about C&C. Thats pretty much it. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
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