alanschu Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Please don't feel sorry for me. I be fine. Honestly. I feel sorry for you because you're pretty much setting yourself up to be unable to enjoy the game due to irrational preconceived notions of it, and banal nitpicks. Further compounded by the fact that apparently the same shortcoming in Baldur's Gate allow it to become one of the best games you've ever played.
HoonDing Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I'm sure the evil option will boil down to saving the world, but being a jerk about it, or if we're lucky doing a 180 just before the last battle and joining the bad guy. "Go stop the Horde, before the world ends, Gray Warden!" 1. It is my sacred duty to defend the world, the twelve gods will guide my blade. 2. Sure, I'm not really doing anything this afternoon anyway. 3. I hate you and your stupid order, I hope you all burn in the Nine Hells. Ok, I'll do it, but I won't enjoy it. But, but, how then are we supposed to enslave nations with necromancy? The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
alanschu Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Was that mentioned in a preview? I've seen the references to nercomantic enslavings a few times now haha.
Gfted1 Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Wow, someone needs a timeout. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Volourn Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Alanshu: It was a very early hype point by BIO. Really, really early. "and enslaves nations with necromancy" Also, Alanshu is winning this with a slam dunk. Anyone who loves BG should not be dissing other games' 'freedom of choice'. I love BG; but it's not a game that gives you a lot of real role-playing choice either - espicially in rgeards to character background. Every player has the same abckground - you grew up in Candlekeep with your foster father Gorion and your foster sister Imoen. That's it, that's all. NO CHOICE. DA is offering 6 backgrounds in which gives you 6 ALTERNATE BEGINNINGs in which you get multiple choices which will effect the rest of your game. Sorry, even if DA offers even a 1/100th of what the origins are hyping it still wins over BG in this regard. L0L DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Maria Caliban Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Was that mentioned in a preview? I've seen the references to nercomantic enslavings a few times now haha. On the very first FAQ BioWare offered five years ago they said you could play a wandering barbarian, a dwarven prince, or enslave nations with your necromancy. This was back when it was planned as a PC exclusive with different campaigns for single and multiplayer. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
Tigranes Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Generally I agree with HK/alanschu - Bioware taking the time to create origins for your characters should be applauded. (I'm disagreeing with MC - now there goes your partisanship. ) One point that shouldn't be buried, though. The key difference between, say, backgrounds of Arcanum and origins of Bioware were this; (a) the backgrounds were not hardwired to particular character types; being a pyromaniac didn't mean you couldn't custom-tailor any otehr part of your character, and (b) you could have no background if you liked. I remember the Elven Peasant(?) origin as being a woman whose to-be-husband was killed or something and is angry/out for revenge, or something to that effect. I'm sure they'll let you be male or female. But can you be an elven 'peasant' without having the emo-story attached to you? Can you be a human peasant where a similar thing has happened? Or is it going to be that if you choose to play an elf for gameplay / personal reasons, you're going to have to choose to be one of the 2 origins that Bioware has created for you? I like how detailed Bio have made the origins, and how they say they'll integrate it into the game, but it would be quite ironic if all that meant I couldn't play, y'know, a normal elf. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress)
Purkake Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I'm sure the evil option will boil down to saving the world, but being a jerk about it, or if we're lucky doing a 180 just before the last battle and joining the bad guy. "Go stop the Horde, before the world ends, Gray Warden!" 1. It is my sacred duty to defend the world, the twelve gods will guide my blade. 2. Sure, I'm not really doing anything this afternoon anyway. 3. I hate you and your stupid order, I hope you all burn in the Nine Hells. Ok, I'll do it, but I won't enjoy it. But, but, how then are we supposed to enslave nations with necromancy? If you collect all the 76 garden gnomes in the game AND pre-ordered the game from Gamestop you get a secret special option: 4. *Enslave nation with necromancy*
Maria Caliban Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Yes, if you have an elf, you have to play a city or dalish elf. The thing is though, that is *normal* for elves in this setting. If you're a city elf, you're bottom of the barrel and noble humans can piss on you if they want. If you were a city elf and had a happy, healthy life surrounded by respectful humans then that would be abnormal. The dalish elves live apart from human settlements for a reason. (several, really) That said, I understand how the six origins could disappoint people if they didn "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
Wrath of Dagon Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 How's being restricted in origin different from being restricted in the main story? At least here you have six choices, in main game you'll usually have only one. This is a story driven game, like all Bio games, if you have that much of a problem with that why even pay attention to the game? "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
~Di Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 I'm pleased to see alanschu's points laid out so well here. This forum has turned into a near-constant bash-BioWare and Bethesda fest, and it's getting on my last nerve. Lots of you aren't interested in BioWare games. Fine. We get it. After reading tome after tome after tome from the same batch of usual suspects blasting these developers and their games, even games that haven't been released, believe me we get it. My question... why the hell do you have to continually whine about this day after day, week after week? I'm not interested in Alpha Protocol... you don't see me in there pissing and moaning about all the reasons I'm not interested in that game, why I think it's going to be a boring game, a cliched game, a linear/nonlinear game, a seen-it-all-before game. No, I let the people who are interested in AP chat about it. I, on the other hand, join discussions about games I AM interested in, and frankly it's pretty danged annoying to see those discussions innundated by the same people barging in for no other reason than to slam the games and drone on about why they hate or are going to hate games that they've never even played. Good grief, enough already. There are more positive ways to garner personal attention. /rant That felt good. Carry on.
Aristes Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 But, ~Di, can we just lay down some criticism of particular features without panning the whole game or Bioware? Can we call criticism where we see it is warranted, such as cliched stereotypes, without letting it decide our purchase or define our experience?
Purkake Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 This thread would be pretty boring if everyone was just praising the game... Criticism spurs the conversation.
~Di Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 This thread would be pretty boring if everyone was just praising the game... Criticism spurs the conversation. Big difference between legitimate criticism and rinse-repeat Bio-bashing (or Bethesda-bashing)... on a game that nobody here save one has even played. In the past I have offered my own opinions, good and not-so-good, about games I've played, and explained why. When asked, I've explained why I'm not interested in a particular game. But I sure as heck don't follow every single thread about those games/developers inserting post after post of unbridled insult while gleefully chortling that I have never played said games and never would play said games because I just "know" that they are going to be (fill in the blank with list of rambling complaints). Big difference between discussion of a games pros and cons, or potential pros and cons, and a simple bashfest meant to be neither constructive nor conducive to anything beyond insulting not only the games/developers, but also heaped with a healthy dose of condescention aimed at those who might actually, you know, enjoy playing games by said developers. If "criticism spurs the conversation", that must be why there is so much yakking going on in this forum, because nearly every thread ends up being one long whine. Someone dropping in here for the first time would wonder what the hell most of us are doing on a video game board when there doesn't seem to be a game on the planet that anyone here likes! Are we all so danged intellectually extraordinary that the talentless hacks at development studios can't possibly satisfy or challenge our vast gaming superiority? Because that's what some of these threads sound like, a mental masturbation session where a positive word is sneered at as weakness and haughty conceit is considered the epitomy of awesome. Hmm. I guess I had one more rant left after all! Sorry about that.
Purkake Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) This thread would be pretty boring if everyone was just praising the game... Criticism spurs the conversation. Big difference between legitimate criticism and rinse-repeat Bio-bashing (or Bethesda-bashing)... on a game that nobody here save one has even played. In the past I have offered my own opinions, good and not-so-good, about games I've played, and explained why. When asked, I've explained why I'm not interested in a particular game. But I sure as heck don't follow every single thread about those games/developers inserting post after post of unbridled insult while gleefully chortling that I have never played said games and never would play said games because I just "know" that they are going to be (fill in the blank with list of rambling complaints). Big difference between discussion of a games pros and cons, or potential pros and cons, and a simple bashfest meant to be neither constructive nor conducive to anything beyond insulting not only the games/developers, but also heaped with a healthy dose of condescention aimed at those who might actually, you know, enjoy playing games by said developers. If "criticism spurs the conversation", that must be why there is so much yakking going on in this forum, because nearly every thread ends up being one long whine. Someone dropping in here for the first time would wonder what the hell most of us are doing on a video game board when there doesn't seem to be a game on the planet that anyone here likes! Are we all so danged intellectually extraordinary that the talentless hacks at development studios can't possibly satisfy or challenge our vast gaming superiority? Because that's what some of these threads sound like, a mental masturbation session where a positive word is sneered at as weakness and haughty conceit is considered the epitomy of awesome. Hmm. I guess I had one more rant left after all! Sorry about that. Maybe we're just a bunch of jaded "old school" gamers, who can't get past the glory days of late 90's with Infinity Engine games and whatnot. Or maybe that's just me? I prefer to approach games with cautious pessimism these days, I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than disappointed because of expecting too much. That said, I think that the discussion here is generally balanced and Alanschu & Co are doing a pretty good job. EDIT: Also, this IS still the internet... Edited July 3, 2009 by Purkake
Slowtrain Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 This forum has turned into a near-constant bash-BioWare and Bethesda fest, and it's getting on my last nerve. Well, yeah.,Bethesda makes wretched games that deserved to be bashed. Repeatedly and with a really big hammer. (As Sargy would say, who loves ya, baby!) Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Gromnir Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 "Can we call criticism where we see it is warranted, such as cliched stereotypes," is not possible to see such until game is played. is only cliche if is done poor. back in the other thread we addressed the Ancient Evil complaints. is more than a few fantasy and sci-fi stories that is considered groundbreaking in spite of Ancient Evil. in any event, Gromnir is unimpressed with the notion o' origins. sure, you get six origin choices 'stead o' one, but those six origins is still gonna have to be written with general appeal in mind... and as Gromnir and others point out, you is not gonna have true 6 different stories. is gonna be some key plot points that is common to all six origins. is a bass akwards approach. sure, is intuitive, but you simply multiply vague bhaalspawn into six near equal vague da protagonists... 'cause regardless of origin choice, developers is still gonna leave up to the player to decide if you is a tough guy or a sneaky bastard. maybe you is helping little old women across the street... or maybe you punt puppies into oncoming traffic... just for fun. maybe you does a little o' both help and punt? try to write compelling story wherein the protagonist can be nice, naughty, tough, cowardly, boastful, humble, aggressive, passive, or a combination of any of the aforementioned. go ahead, we dare you. fact that the hypothetical protagonist is a dwarf noble or a human peasant not make writer's job markedly easier. am fully understanding why bio did origins... 'cause it is an obvious approach. the problem is that the bio origins approach not genuine solve problems involved in making a story 'bout a vague protagonist. 6 vague origins is better than a single vague bhaalspawn? maybe. keep in mind that Gromnir has always complained 'bout overemphasis on a necessarily vague and fluid crpg protagonist. is a dead end from a writer's pov. 'course, 'stead o' having 6 different protagonists why not instead has 3 different antagonists that change depending on gameplay choices? actual meaningful bifurcations 'stead o' inevitable chokepoints and merging regardless of origins. villains not need to be vague... can be static. *shrug* am thinking that best we will be able to say 'bout origins is that 6 is maybe better than 1. am thinking that more than a few people will complains of linearity regardless o' origin choices. am betting that more than a few will be disappointed by lack o' choice the origin options genuine provide. am betting that many o' the complaints would be heard regardless o' how good or bad the origins is implemented. nevertheless, the origins options is a safe approach that will not doubt be lauded by many, and criticized by a few. 1) 6 is better than 1. 2) 6 or 1 doesn't make for a genuine difference. get to wait 'til october to see if Gromnir prognostications is the typical scary accurate. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
~Di Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 This forum has turned into a near-constant bash-BioWare and Bethesda fest, and it's getting on my last nerve. Well, yeah.,Bethesda makes wretched games that deserved to be bashed. Repeatedly and with a really big hammer. (As Sargy would say, who loves ya, baby!) Guess I'm just clueless, too intellectually stunted to recognize wretchedness, because I happen to have enjoyed playing Bethesda games. So get out your bashing hammer and use it on me as well. Clearly, I deserve it.
Purkake Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 (edited) Being a bad game and being a fun game are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure everyone here has enjoyed some not so great games(not trying to bash any game here). I think that a lot of people here believe that it could have been better, not that it's the worst game ever. It has it's flaws and certain things turn some people off more than others. I enjoyed Oblivion for a while, then I got bored. I don't think it's a horrible game, the open world do-your-own-thing just doesn't appeal to me these days. Edited July 3, 2009 by Purkake
Slowtrain Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 This forum has turned into a near-constant bash-BioWare and Bethesda fest, and it's getting on my last nerve. Well, yeah.,Bethesda makes wretched games that deserved to be bashed. Repeatedly and with a really big hammer. (As Sargy would say, who loves ya, baby!) Guess I'm just clueless, too intellectually stunted to recognize wretchedness, because I happen to have enjoyed playing Bethesda games. So get out your bashing hammer and use it on me as well. Clearly, I deserve it. No way, Di, you are too awesome to bash. I'll just keep on bashing Bethie when the opportunity presents itself. (which isn't really in this thread, so probably not directly applicable) On a side note, I don't bash Bioware because well, I really don't care much about the company or their games. SOi it's hard for me to muster much will, either positive or ill as the case might be. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Slowtrain Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 I'm sure everyone here has enjoyed some not so great games(not trying to bash any game here). I enjoyed Far Cry 2! There. I said it and I am not ashamed! (It could have been a LOT better, though) Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Purkake Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 I'm sure everyone here has enjoyed some not so great games(not trying to bash any game here). I enjoyed Far Cry 2! There. I said it and I am not ashamed! (It could have been a LOT better, though) Maybe we should do a bad games anonymous? I enjoyed Crysis, even though I was totally bored with it at the end. It was fun to fling guys into building and stuff. It's like seeing a crappy movie like Wolverine, but enjoying the lameness
Slowtrain Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 All hail bad game enjoyment! I pretty much plan to buy Dragon Age on release. I mean, why not? It's not like Boware has any great heights of total awesomness to plummet from. I'm sure the game wil be fun enough for 50 USD. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
Monte Carlo Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 I have seen the light, Dragon Age will be awesome. I am running out today to buy the entire Bioware back catalogue, and am re-installing NWN1 to remind me how wrong I was about Bioware marketing.
alanschu Posted July 3, 2009 Posted July 3, 2009 But, ~Di, can we just lay down some criticism of particular features without panning the whole game or Bioware? Can we call criticism where we see it is warranted, such as cliched stereotypes, without letting it decide our purchase or define our experience? For the record, you do a good job of this.
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