NWN3 will be actually a MMO

[213374U]

That even free to play games can offer similar or even better services than pay-to-play MMOs...

Well, yes. The emphasis there being on "can", which in this case is totally out of the developers' hands. Depends on whether the game manages to gather together a community large and active enough to fund, run and debug PWs and content for them on their own penny, in their spare time - the community is shouldering the burden of the effort required to provide a service which in most cases doesn't come even close to MMOs. And at any rate, those community PWs simply couldn't handle the millions of subscribers that MMOs sustain...

 

 

EDIT: and that you cannot expect miracles from any game even if you pay monthly fee for it... some companies do awesome job at running MMOs and some publishers should just need to be arrested for fraud

This applies to pretty much anything. A mechanic may screw up when fixing your car, but that doesn't mean he'll always screw up or that you'll be able to fix it just as well yourself (unless you're a mechanic yourself). You are supposed to get what you pay for, and in most cases, you do. It's bad business to have otherwise.

 

It's always funny to see people try and establish a general rule from a very skewed and carefully chosen handful of examples, and then try to use that rule to push their agenda, though. Never gets old.

 

RE Guild Wars: GW isn't free. It's as "free" as the trial versions of the rest of pay-to-play MMOs. It's a different biz model, but by no means free.

[Magister Lajciak]

How lame is that?

 

Clearly, Atari hasn't understood where the NWN core-crowd really is - the single player. But whatever.

 

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. I mean... take a good franchise, but switch it to 4E (most likely) and turn it into an MMO? It's like they are actively trying to lose me as a customer. Oh well, I am sure there will be plenty of other people who will enjoy it even though it will be an MMO and most likely 4E, so I guess that will just leave me lamenting the demise of yet another good franchise as a setting for non-MMO games.

 

I suppose BG3 is being made too and probably as a single player game (I recall reading that the BG franchise is being revived), but that too will likely be 4E and thus an automatic no-buy for me. I guess I should really stop tracking 'D&D' games now, since all new ones will likely be 4E, so there is no point for me to waste time on following them.

[Morgoth]

Sorry for the somewhat OT intrusion, but what the heck is so bad about 4E? I've no knowledge about it, so please clarify.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Morgoth

[Purkake]

Sorry for the somewhat OT intrusion, but what the heck is so bad about 4E? I've no knowledge about it, so please clarify.

 

Spellcasters gain infinite/once per encounter/once per day uses for their spells depending on the spell. Damage is streamlined to level so a level 5 fighter does about the same damage in a round as a level 5 wizard or a level 5 rogue. Monsters have a lot oh hitpoints, but pretty low damage. Saving throws are just straight D20 rolls with 11+ succeeding and 1-10 failing(some abilities change that, but no more DCs for saving throws). Also all non-damage/status effect spells are changed to "rituals" which take more time to cast and are not really combat-friendly.

 

So it's basically streamlined so that all the classes are almost perfectly balanced and feel pretty much the same.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Purkake

[Magister Lajciak]

Sorry for the somewhat OT intrusion, but what the heck is so bad about 4E? I've no knowledge about it, so please clarify.

 

I don't really want to derail the thread, but since you asked I will just mention a few things briefly. I should mention outright that I am primarily a PnP gamer (and mostly the Dungeon Master), more so than a player of CRPGs, though I clearly do enjoy CRPGs too (otherwise I wouldn't be here ).

 

My problems with 4E can be grouped into two categories (which are, of course, related): flavor & mechanics/rules.

 

In terms of flavor, 4E has run roughshod over all things D&D, getting rid of races such as gnomes, while introducing races such as Eladrin or Dragonborn. This is just one example among many, many, many - practically the whole D&D flavor has been removed and replaced with something completely different. The old planes, such as the elemental planes, or the outer planes are gone and instead there are new ones such as the Astral Sea or Feywild. Dragons are no longer intelligent creatures that are fearsome in physical combat, but can also cast spells as was traditionally the case in D&D, but are now feral monsters instead. And so on and so on - there is very little D&D left in 4E - the flavor changes are so huge I don't actually consider it D&D anymore, though I don't doubt that some might have a different perspective on the matter.

 

A special mention in terms of flavor changes should be made with respect to Forgotten Realms. FR was the first setting to be switched to 4E (with others to follow) and it was basically butchered. Some continents no longer exist (e.g. Maztica) and have been replaced with new ones, most of the deities have either been killed or retconned out of existence and the setting, the planar structure has been changed to be the same as the new planes in 'core 4E' (again, meaning that the normal planes we know and love are gone and replaced by new 4E inventions), and plenty of other changes have been made to make it a more generic setting.

 

Now as to the changes to the rules themselves, these are perhaps even more suckastic than the changes to flavor. The driving reason behind the new rules has been balance between the classes. This is in principle a nice goal, but the way they went about it was not suitable to my gaming needs (I won't say it was outright bad, because different people want different things from RPG games, but for me it was definitely bad). Essentially, their balancing methods took too forms. If something is not considered perfectly balanced between the classes do one of these three things:

 

1) Remove it from the game

2) Nerf it beyond being recognizable

3) Make it the same for all classes

 

The result is that entire categories of special abilities have been removed from the game. These are often among the more interesting abilities, so the balancing has made the game much more boring. For example, all forms of summoning are completely gone from the game (give some players more actions per round than others), all save or die spells are gone (too dangerous), illusion magic is gone, and so on and so on. Oh and all classes now have the same 'power progression'. That means that the old magic system is gone and all classes, whether they are fighters or wizards get one ability usable once per day at level 1, another usable once per encounter at level 2 another usable at will at level 3, another usable once per day at level 4 and so on (the progression is made up to illustrate the principle, I don't actually remember at what level they get what type of ability - the point is that it is the same for all classes). This is majorly boring for me.

 

There are many other things I dislike about 4E, but this a good start. I certainly won't be spending any money to support that system.

[Purkake]

Yeah, what he said. I didn't even think of the flavor stuff.

 

They pretty much took out a lot of the (player) innovation for the sake of player balance and thus making it a lot more like a video game. Want to collapse the ceiling on the dragon? Sure, but It'll do the same damage as if you had cast a lighting bolt at it.

 

Also, it's interesting to look at how Shadowrun 4e managed to streamline things without screwing everything up.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Purkake

[Morgoth]

Sounds atrocious indeed. Let's just hope Obsidian sticks with either 3/3.5E, or make their own thing.

[Mamoulian War]

wow... i never knew the damage was so big

 

And the crown of the ridiculousity... D&D without gnomes, seriously WTF???

[Hurlshort]

It would be awesome if Shadowrun became as popular as D&D then.

[Purkake]

It would be awesome if Shadowrun became as popular as D&D then.

 

I blame WoW, it should have been World of Cyberpunk instead...

[Monte Carlo]

It really is a case of video killed the radio star.

 

Pen & Paper gaming was dying. PC games rescued it, and to a certain extent needed it. A lot of gamers came back to PnP as a result of the Gold box or IE games (I played PnP with quite a few of them) and now PnP has to ape the relative simplicity of MMOs.... ergo 4E. It's insulting and patronizing - "Da Kidz" can only understand simple rules, have no time for complexity etc.

 

Computer gaming irrevocably changed the way people approached PnP gaming. Two things I noticed immediately was what I called "Baldur's Gating" i.e. immediately resting after any combat encounter to recharge spells / hit points etc just like in BG. The other was a twitchy expectation of fast-levelling. Nothing wrong with this - it's what they expected from D&D after being introduced to it on the 'puter is all. 4E seems to me to be the ultimate manifestation of this - unfortunately it is characterless, pointless sludge.

 

3E was the apogee of the game, RIP Dungeons and Dragons.

 

Cheers

MC

[Volourn]

"Two things I noticed immediately was what I called "Baldur's Gating" i.e. immediately resting after any combat encounter to recharge spells / hit points etc just like in BG."

 

Really? In all pnping since BG2 was released, I ahve never witnessed this weirdness. Must have occured in the last year or two since I haven't played much pnp in that time. Hmm..

[Purkake]

DnD has never really been that great. It was the start of PnP RPGs and suffers a lot because of that. The (default) setting is very generic and needs a good DM to make something other than a dungeon crawl. The rules aren't really good either.

 

What a PnP RPG really needs is a great setting like Call of Cthulhu and rules that aren't hard to learn, but are functional.

[213374U]

and now PnP has to ape the relative simplicity of MMOs.... ergo 4E. It's insulting and patronizing - "Da Kidz" can only understand simple rules, have no time for complexity etc.

Sounds like we have a clear case of unfair generalising!

 

DDO works fine with a 3/3.5 system in which the most important departure from PnP is the addition of a "mana" pool to casters. So it's not the MMO cultists eating babies again - MMO players are the *ultimate* min/maxers, and that cannot be accomplished without deep knowledge of the rules. Also, D&D games have been known to sell pretty well for the most part, and those sales cannot be exclusively attributed to old PnP fans. So it's not "kids these days" becoming unable or unwilling to master relatively complex rulesets.

 

Looks to me like WotC is solely to blame for driving it to the ground, in their effort to force their ****ing miniatures down everyone's throats, in their effort to make it appealing to the widest possible audience.

[MacCorp]

How lame is that?

 

Clearly, Atari hasn't understood where the NWN core-crowd really is - the single player. But whatever.

Remember that its only a rumor. Until someone confirms the article, I would not give this rumor any weight. Give it some time. NWN3 MMO might not be a bad idea, but lets wait an see what comes out of Atari. I loved playing NWN2.

Edited June 14, 2009 by MacCorp

[Nightshape]

It would be awesome if Shadowrun became as popular as D&D then.

 

 

While I like the setting. The 1 gazillion d6 die you need to play is anal.

[Purkake]

It would be awesome if Shadowrun became as popular as D&D then.

 

 

While I like the setting. The 1 gazillion d6 die you need to play is anal.

 

Yeah, but the dice pool mechanic offers a lot more flexibility and makes critical failures happen when they should.

[Monte Carlo]

and now PnP has to ape the relative simplicity of MMOs.... ergo 4E. It's insulting and patronizing - "Da Kidz" can only understand simple rules, have no time for complexity etc.

Sounds like we have a clear case of unfair generalising!

 

So it's not "kids these days" becoming unable or unwilling to master relatively complex rulesets.

 

Looks to me like WotC is solely to blame for driving it to the ground, in their effort to force their ****ing miniatures down everyone's throats, in their effort to make it appealing to the widest possible audience.

 

I wasn't suggesting the kids couldn't / wouldn't get complex rulesets. To the contrary, I know they can.

 

Re. WotC and minis = totally agreed.

[Saruman]

Well nwn3(or whatever next fr game) -mmo - that is lame!!!

I was just thinking that for me waiting for mmo up to my expectations i wont play mmo probably for the next 5-8 years! wtf!

I mean today all mmo games graphicaly and mechanicaly look like crap!!! And obsidian, atari, bioware should understand that in real the key to the success for forgotten realms games rests in singlplayer! They should understand that such musterpieces as FR should be only SP.

Of course it is always an issue to successfuly present not just good graphics and mechanics, but most important - that feeling, that world of forgotten realms; where obviously developers successeded making nwn1 and absolutely failed making nwn2.

Also I have an idea that probably while making new SP RPG, developers should implement more Action\Slash&Hack game elements. For ex. I greatly loved Forgoten Realms Demon Stone, I know that many people will discourage me for that, but may be thay should let go of that combat rules sys.. I always wanted free combat, where everything depends on reaction, imagination, but not like stepby step compat sys.! Iwant my actions to be free!

 

P.S And again, next FR game as MMO -> it is crap! Dont do that mistake!!!

Edited July 19, 2009 by Saruman

[Jaesun]

I honestly don't have a problem with this (nor will I play it)... provided they will be continuing to make a NWN type of game.

 

Basically another D&D game + Tool-set.

 

If they are abandoning that, I'll be pretty pissed. grrrrr.

[Maria Caliban]

Sorry for the somewhat OT intrusion, but what the heck is so bad about 4E? I've no knowledge about it, so please clarify.

 

It's a great system, but it's different from 3.5 in that the classes are balanced, everyone has powers, and you're required to work together to survive far more than before. A class is defined by its group role and power source, with each class having 2-3 different 'paths' that key off different attributes. Enhancement from gear is now capped off at 20%, and equipment is now given a numerical value and level so the GM knows if its appropriate for the group or not. Monsters have more hit points, are arraigned by types, and default into a group. Most every monster has a power or special ability and maneuver.

 

Many non-combat spells are now rituals and have prerequisite skill levels in healing, religion, and spell-casting.

 

Combat is faster, the PCs are hardier at low-levels, and there

Edited July 20, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[Volourn]

"but it's different from 3.5 in that the classes are balanced"

 

You meant bland, samey, boring, and silly.

 

I think it's silly that a rogue is the 'equal' of a mage or a warrior. Just plain foolish.

 

In essence, balance meaning everything is equal is a copout, illogical, and ruins the game.

 

Not everything is created equal. Perish the thought.

 

But, hey, a backstab should be as deadly as a high level spell. LMAO

[Enoch]

But, hey, a backstab should be as deadly as a high level spell. LMAO

I know that taking on the Vologic is futile, and even beyond that, I don't even have a dog in this fight, as I haven't had a reason to read a D&D manual since the late-90's.

 

But are you actually complaining that a particular type of character doesn't have abilities that are more deadly than an 8-inch knife buried to the hilt between a person's ribs??

[213374U]

That would be the gist of it, yes.

Time Stop

[Volourn]

"But are you actually complaining that a particular type of character doesn't have abilities that are more deadly than an 8-inch knife buried to the hilt between a person's ribs??"

 

As deadly as a backstab is, it should not be the equivelant of a magical spell at the highest level of power. Unless you think something as mundane as a knife should be the equal of a power that can create soemthing out of nothing. R00fles!