Kotor3: Ideas, Suggestions, Discussion Part 26

[Magister Lajciak]

gee, i could be wrong here, but i get the feeling you're not very happy about that?

Stating the obvious.

 

No K3 for us.

 

Sad news for us, that is true, but at least we can now leave the KOTOR franchise behind with certainty and not hold onto some false hope that KOTOR 3 will be made.

[babydol]

Sad news for us, that is true, but at least we can now leave the KOTOR franchise behind with certainty and not hold onto some false hope that KOTOR 3 will be made.

 

Nah. I'd rather have the false hope.

 

Really, though, absolutely NO point in keeping this thread open, now.

[walkerguy]

"K3" is coming out as MMO, obviously. Yuck. If it goes 360 (Don't know- I doubt it) I'll be getting it.

Edited October 24, 2008 by walkerguy

[Magister Lajciak]

Sad news for us, that is true, but at least we can now leave the KOTOR franchise behind with certainty and not hold onto some false hope that KOTOR 3 will be made.

 

Nah. I'd rather have the false hope.

 

Really, though, absolutely NO point in keeping this thread open, now.

 

I agree that this thread has now become pointless.

[DAWUSS]

Does anyone remember when I cracked that one joke about how K3 would be an MMO by EA with George being heavily involved with the project? Looks like I have 2/3 on that....

Edited October 25, 2008 by DAWUSS

[dustin19]

"K3" is coming out as MMO, obviously. Yuck. If it goes 360 (Don't know- I doubt it) I'll be getting it.

ya hopefully it will b on 360...does ne1 no if it will??

[I want teh kotor 3]

No reason to keep the threak, K3 is dead, which I've been saying for a while now.

[Darth Clumber]

Seeing as how the Kotor MMO thread is closed...

 

I'm actually pretty excited for this MMO. It's no KOTOR 3 but it looks to be plenty interesting if they can pull off all of the stuff they're saying they can do well.

[Calax]

What do you mean that you would not be able to accomplish anything? The end of KOTOR 2 is set up for the True Sith to invade the Republic since the Republic is just about dead anyway and the Jedi Order nearly non-existant. The only reason they would have been delayed 300 years in which the Republic recovered would be if Revan/Exile accomplished something in the Sith Empire. You can't realistically expect that they destroy all of the Sith by themselves, so instead they just caused enough problems that the Sith were not able to attack for another 300 years. There's plenty of potential for what happened there.

They probably advanced the timeline 300 years so that a few things could happen. The republic could rebuild itself from the low point of Kotor 2. The Jedi Order could be repopulated. and so that they could disconnect from the KotoR games a bit and not have to add a Revan NPC. Then have nerd wars over revans Gender alignment physical attributes class and other such goodies.

[I want teh kotor 3]

I'm actually pretty excited for this MMO.

 

[walkerguy]

No reason to keep the thread, K3 is dead, which I've been saying for a while now.

 

Speculation is now almost entirely going to be moot since the proper time period has been brushed over by Bioware and new game in MMO. Some people gave up with TFU, but everyone has got to let go now.

[Commander Gaal]

No, my hope is not lost, the MMO is NOT KoToR 3, it is Star Wars: The Old Republic.

In 300 years a lot can chance, and George Lucas said that the Kotor story has not ended, and that is will continue.

[Jediphile]

Alas, so the rumors were true - the Lucasarts/Bioware collaboration is indeed the "Old Republic" project that many suspected. For KotOR this is bad news.

 

But wait, why is it bad news? Surely I, for one, should be somewhat pleased, since I've speculated before that a Star Wars MMO could be set a couple of hundred years after TSL and not screw anything up. This new story takes place about 300 years after KotOR (which presumably means KotOR1), so that should be the best compromise, right?

 

Well, two things there...

 

First, my point has been that if this MMO must be a Star Wars game set in the time of KotOR and build on it, then the least damaging choice would be a scenario hundreds of years after TSL. But it was never the ideal solution. In fact, it is still close to about the worst that makes any sense, since for a background with huge battles between the Sith and the Jedi, putting it just after TSL would be impossible, as the jedi order is virtually extinct by the end of the game. It would take at least a few generations for the order to rebuild its ranks somewhat. That's exactly what the new game does, then sees the Sith attack and putting the Republic on the defense with failing ranks of jedi before the game begins with a huge confrontation between the jedi and sith. Sound familiar? It should. It's exactly the same set-up Bioware established for the first KotOR game... which itself "borrowed" heavily from the original movie trilogy...

 

So why is this about the worst solution? Well, that's my second point. When I have said in the past a few hundred years could solve the problems of having an MMO sequel to TSL, it was based on the assumption with all our main characters dead and the true Sith matter resolved, both the jedi and sith could rise again. But the new game's background is clearly focused on building on events and ideas established in the KotOR games. In that sense it is a sequel of sorts. How can I claim that? Well, for one thing, look at what Lucasarts say in the press release.

 

"Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is the most critically acclaimed Star Wars game in LucasArts history and a preeminent example of our company

[DAWUSS]

Alas, so the rumors were true - the Lucasarts/Bioware collaboration is indeed the "Old Republic" project that many suspected. For KotOR this is bad news.

 

But wait, why is it bad news? Surely I, for one, should be somewhat pleased, since I've speculated before that a Star Wars MMO could be set a couple of hundred years after TSL and not screw anything up. This new story takes place about 300 years after KotOR (which presumably means KotOR1), so that should be the best compromise, right?

 

Well, two things there...

 

First, my point has been that if this MMO must be a Star Wars game set in the time of KotOR and build on it, then the least damaging choice would be a scenario hundreds of years after TSL. But it was never the ideal solution. In fact, it is still close to about the worst that makes any sense, since for a background with huge battles between the Sith and the Jedi, putting it just after TSL would be impossible, as the jedi order is virtually extinct by the end of the game. It would take at least a few generations for the order to rebuild its ranks somewhat. That's exactly what the new game does, then sees the Sith attack and putting the Republic on the defense with failing ranks of jedi before the game begins with a huge confrontation between the jedi and sith. Sound familiar? It should. It's exactly the same set-up Bioware established for the first KotOR game... which itself "borrowed" heavily from the original movie trilogy...

 

Well I think an immediate post-TSL MMO could have worked well also - Star Wars: Galaxies originally started out with no Jedi, and being a member of the True Sith Empire or the Galactic Republic isn't dependent on your Force-Sensitivity. And you could have had the Unknown Regions' happenings going on outside of gameplay (in other words, things are going on where the playerbase can witness but not interact for a period of time). And eventually the story would have come full circle with Revan, the Exile, the Jedi Order, the Galactic Republic, and the True Sith.

 

 

So why is this about the worst solution? Well, that's my second point. When I have said in the past a few hundred years could solve the problems of having an MMO sequel to TSL, it was based on the assumption with all our main characters dead and the true Sith matter resolved, both the jedi and sith could rise again. But the new game's background is clearly focused on building on events and ideas established in the KotOR games. In that sense it is a sequel of sorts. How can I claim that? Well, for one thing, look at what Lucasarts say in the press release.

 

"Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is the most critically acclaimed Star Wars game in LucasArts history and a preeminent example of our company

[Khan_Mace]

I think that there is no reason to believe that Revan is not coming back. It is possible that he's still alive - in fact, given the fact that they explicitly mention his lack of return and his being as powerful as he was - it seems likely that BioWare plans on introducing him to the story.

[Dark Wastl]

I do think that they will use him in some capacity for the story, but I don't see how one could believe that he would return, when it's mentioned specifically that he didn't return. By the time of TOR he's dead anyway.

[Magister Lajciak]

Just because Revan hasn't returned does not mean the players are not going to find out what has happened to him by playing the game.

[Jediphile]

I think that there is no reason to believe that Revan is not coming back. It is possible that he's still alive - in fact, given the fact that they explicitly mention his lack of return and his being as powerful as he was - it seems likely that BioWare plans on introducing him to the story.

 

You know, that doesn't sound entirely unlikely... which would be lame and unoriginal. Unfortunately that is also what makes it not unlikely IMHO

[pcrk2]

Quote from ToR site, FAQ section: "Will I see any characters from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic? Given that it is approximately 300 years since the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, many of the characters have passed away. However, their legacy does live on as many of their descendants will be part of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Some droids can last a long time as well."

there are 2 possibilities: many have passed away but a few survived or bioware had written this to torture us with the idea that revan or others could live, but in the end all of the characters are dead.

Edited October 31, 2008 by pcrk2

[DAWUSS]

Quote from ToR site, FAQ section: "Will I see any characters from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic? Given that it is approximately 300 years since the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, many of the characters have passed away. However, their legacy does live on as many of their descendants will be part of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Some droids can last a long time as well."

there are 2 possibilities: many have passed away but a few survived or bioware had written this to torture us with the idea that revan or others could live, but in the end all of the characters are dead.

 

The only characters that may still be alive would be....

 

 

 

Zaalbar, and Motta and Vogga the Hutt

 

 

And as we know, HK-47 started the Battle of Koseyet after the Death Star blew up

[Guest The Architect]

You know a part of me hopes Revan does turn out to be the Mysterious Sith Emperor, because at least that will end all the debate about who has the better writing talent out of BioWare and Obsidian.

[I want teh kotor 3]

You know a part of me hopes Revan does turn out to be the Mysterious Sith Emperor, because at least that will end all the debate about who has the better writing talent out of BioWare and Obsidian.

 

[Marcus]

"The Old Republic" will make people apprechiate a few things. First, people will have more respect for singleplayer games. Second, the original "Knights of the Old Republic"'s place in the saga will be solidified. Third, people will not be looking at "The Sith Lords" in the same way anymore.

 

BioWare was the original developer, and the story has returned to their hands. I find that to be win-win. Obsidian's work on "The Sith Lords" can become apprechiated. After reading so many Obsidian articles and interviews, about how "The Sith Lords" fell apart, I think Lucas wants things to settle down for a while. Someday Obsidian my just get another chance, so I wouldn't count them out in the future.

 

"Knights of the Old Republic" is an awsome story to be told. After people experienced the original game, some have become too critical on how they want the story to move forward. If "The Old Republic" didn't have prequels, I don't think people would be knocking on the MMO.

 

Some very harshfull truth about making "The Old Republic" into a MMO: First, game mods will no longer be present. Second, there will not be any third party affiliation hijacking. No one will become famous on someone else's product. Eventhough we lost our ability to modify this game, we gained from preventing a group of hijacking modders from becoming famous. Game developers should allow modding, but they should prevent people from becoming famous through hijacking game titles. Its a loss, but its also a win.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Marcus

[Magister Lajciak]

You know a part of me hopes Revan does turn out to be the Mysterious Sith Emperor, because at least that will end all the debate about who has the better writing talent out of BioWare and Obsidian.

 

Rofl That was very funny indeed!

[Albion72]

Alas, so the rumors were true - the Lucasarts/Bioware collaboration is indeed the "Old Republic" project that many suspected. For KotOR this is bad news.

 

But wait, why is it bad news? Surely I, for one, should be somewhat pleased, since I've speculated before that a Star Wars MMO could be set a couple of hundred years after TSL and not screw anything up. This new story takes place about 300 years after KotOR (which presumably means KotOR1), so that should be the best compromise, right?

 

Well, two things there...

 

First, my point has been that if this MMO must be a Star Wars game set in the time of KotOR and build on it, then the least damaging choice would be a scenario hundreds of years after TSL. But it was never the ideal solution. In fact, it is still close to about the worst that makes any sense, since for a background with huge battles between the Sith and the Jedi, putting it just after TSL would be impossible, as the jedi order is virtually extinct by the end of the game. It would take at least a few generations for the order to rebuild its ranks somewhat. That's exactly what the new game does, then sees the Sith attack and putting the Republic on the defense with failing ranks of jedi before the game begins with a huge confrontation between the jedi and sith. Sound familiar? It should. It's exactly the same set-up Bioware established for the first KotOR game... which itself "borrowed" heavily from the original movie trilogy...

 

So why is this about the worst solution? Well, that's my second point. When I have said in the past a few hundred years could solve the problems of having an MMO sequel to TSL, it was based on the assumption with all our main characters dead and the true Sith matter resolved, both the jedi and sith could rise again. But the new game's background is clearly focused on building on events and ideas established in the KotOR games. In that sense it is a sequel of sorts. How can I claim that? Well, for one thing, look at what Lucasarts say in the press release.

 

"Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is the most critically acclaimed Star Wars game in LucasArts history and a preeminent example of our company’s interactive storytelling heritage," said Darrell Rodriguez, President of LucasArts. "For a long time, we’ve long wanted to return to the franchise in a grand way, and we felt that the best setting for it was an online world that would allow millions of people to participate in the experience together. We knew that the developer capable of working with us to deliver an engrossing story with a fully-realized online world was BioWare."

 

This says pretty clearly that Lucasarts sees this game as sequel to TSL. Isn't that what a "return to the franchise" must necessarily mean?

 

But it's not the only explanation. Another can be found in the FAQ. It says the following:

 

How does Star Wars: The Old Republic relate to Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic?

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic takes place approximately three hundred years after the events of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (KOTOR). At the conclusion of the Jedi Civil War in KOTOR, Revan disappeared into unknown space in search of a great threat to the Republic, an expanding Sith Empire led by a mysterious Emperor who planned vengeance for his ancient Jedi enemies. Revan never returned from unknown space, but the Sith Empire did, kicking off a war with the Republic that lasted for decades. Now, despite the uneasy truce created by the Treaty of Coruscant, the tension among the divided star systems is threatening to once again tear the galaxy apart.

 

Now, first of all, this passage effectively ends the discussion of who the "true" Sith are. The fanboy wet-dream of some uber-sith race so powerful and smart it has remained hidden to the jedi order throughout history can now be safely dispelled as just that - a delusion. Other parts of the FAQ establishes this Sith Empire as the remnants of the Sith Empire of Naga Sadow, so we now know that Kreia's "true" Sith were indeed the descendants of the Sith Empire destroyed during the Great Hyperspace War.

 

But this establishes something else. Something about Revan. The hardcore Revan fanboys out there should be furious now, because the above basically establishes Revan as a failure - he did not return from the unknown regions, and he did not succeed in stopping the true Sith, because here they are making the very attack on the Republic that he fought so hard to prevent, all his sacrifices for nothing.

 

TSL reconciled the very different endings of the first KotOR game by establishing a threat that both good and evil Revan would have to do something about - good Revan to save the Republic and evil Revan because it threatened his dream of conquering the Republic and establishing his own empire. The exile ends up in a similar position with Kreia telling the exile that Revan will need warriors both jedi and sith to stand with him in his fight in "the Great War that comes". However, any possibility of a resolution for Revan and exile is now gone, because here is the "Great War", only three hundred years later when Revan, exile, Bastila, Atton, etc. have all now long since died. Fans of those characters can now join the ranks of those who are fans of Nomi Sunrider, Vima Sunrider, Jaden Korr, and other Star Wars characters now abandonned to the netherworlds of the forgotten and discarded. Because a resolution to the struggles of those characters would have demanded a great, ultimate fight against the threat established in TSL, and the new game has now claimed that threat for its own three centuries later, where the characters we knew can no longer have significance. Star Wars: The Old Republic (SWtOR) has simply hijacked the overall plot established during TSL to emcompass both KotOR games and tie them together - a KotOR3 with a resolution for Revan and exile, where they make a grand stand against the (true) is thus impossible now.

 

Oh sure, diehard fans of evil Revan could argue that Revan could be the "mysterious Emperor" of the Sith Empire. But really, wouldn't that really be a huge disappointment plotwise? It would certainly make the canon ending of KotOR1 and the player's choice in the game totally irrelevant, if that were the case.

 

Granted, hearing the final fate of Revan or Exile is obviously not impossible. A story could be made, where Revan and exile "save" the Republic by starting a civil war within the Sith Empire that postpones their planned invasion of the Republic for centuries. Given the state the Republic is in by the end of TSL - largely due to Revan - an invasion by the Sith at that point could have been devastating. In that sense the Republic is "saved" because the attack did not occur until it had a chance to recover enough to at least survive and repel the invasion. But that plot for Revan and exile would make for a grim story of tragic heroes fighting a losing battle for the sake of future generations that they cannot be part of themselves, a story of heroes who sacrifice themselves to a hopeless battle that they can never win, and where the only form of victory is delaying the inevitable for as long as possible in the vain hope that things might change in the Republic in the future and allow its survival once the Sith assault does come. It would be the Star Wars equivalent of the fundamental Call of Cthulhu RPG plots, where the protagonists must constantly try to prevent the return of the evil Old Ones, terrible evil gods that can never be defeated, and who will inevitably awaken again one day and destroy humanity as a matter of course. Not that I'd mind such a plot per se, but it's not one that lends itself well to a game, and probably not one that will be told in Star Wars, where good must always prevail over evil. It could be told within the confines of the Knights of the Old Republic comic book, if the events of those books ever get to a point in the very, very distant future, where Zayne Carrick and his friends live through the events beyond TSL. The perspectives for that are not encouraging, however, as the book is currently at issue 34 - almost three years of publication - and yet the plot began in 3964 BBY and is now in 3963 BBY, just one year of plot having taken place during three years of storytelling, and in the plot it is still seven years before KotOR1 and twelve years before TSL... Heck, Revan could even return to the Republic, so long as it is kept secret and swept under the carpet.

 

But all in all the conclusion is clear - the big finale TSL set the stage for is now impossible. KotOR1 was Episode IV: A New Hope, and TSL was Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back. It had an open ending because it was building towards a sequel. But there will now be no corresponding Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. No final confrontation between Revan and the true Sith, no chance for the exile to "go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things", no "great war that comes". And obviously no closure. Revan, exile and their companions are now lost characters of an unfinished plot left hanging with their fates doomed to wonder the endless wastes of plot limbo. Nice going, Lucasarts - your "return to the franchise in a grand way" has killed KotOR by stealing its plot and murdering its conclusion so it could be used in a new game rather than committing the apparent crime of thinking of an original plot of its own.

 

Also, I shall never again believe anything ever spoken by Lucasarts (see my sig for the reason) - I'll believe Kreia's word over that of Lucasarts from now on!

 

1. "Return to the franchise in a grand way" - Explain how this means sequel, or the LAST part of the franchise that is ever going to be made? The Clone Wars returned to the franchise in a (Well not in my opinion) grand way, games are made in that time period, Star Wars Galaxies was made in the time period of Episode IV, all these returned to the franchise in a grand way. Yet there is always more room to build on plots (take the force unleashed as an example). Returning the franchise does not mean finishing the franchise. Now, if LucasArts would have said, "We are going to finish this franchise in a grand way." I would be P/Oed

 

2. "Revan and the exile never returned from unknown space, but the Sith Empire did" - Why did they wait 300 years bud? Wouldn't it be the ideal time to attack the republic after both the MANDALORIAN and Jedi Civil Wars? Its like Germany versus Poland in World War II. They would've ROLLED the Republic, the only possible competent defenders would've been the Exile and companions and MAYBE Revan and companions. The "True Sith" would've won, end of story. The Galaxy would be in a period of Sith rule and control. Revan stopped them, but like all things bad and evil, they returned, took'em 300 years though, which tells me if they couldn't rebuild fast enough to attack a fledgling republic, Revan (possibly exile) did something very important.

 

Also, it is possible that the Sith attacking this Republic aren't the True Sith spoke of in KOTOR 2. Afterall, if only Kreia knew about the True Sith, how could the Rest of the galaxy put a name to their attackers and know that they were "The True Sith waiting in the dark corners of the galaxy plotting to take over the galaxy?" Those Sith could've been wiped out and remnants of their teachings could have been found and then the Sith order could have been rebuilt in the uknown regions of space. If I remember correctly, there are a lot of civilizations out in the unknown regions that the Republic still hasn't discovered yet.

 

Also, I think the possibility of these, "Uber sith" you speak of was flawed straight from the beginning. No one said they were going to be more powerful than anything ever known. Kreia simply stated that they were rebuilding their empire on the borders of known-unknown space. Afterall, how would you beat an EMPIRE of nothing but "Uber sith"? They were simply darkside users left alone, watching the galaxy unfold like a chess game (or Dajarik in star wars terms).

 

"This makes Revan a failure, because he did not stop the True Sith."

 

That means EVERYONE is a failure. In the entire galaxy. No one every DESTROYS the Sith utterly to where they don't come back. I guess the Exile and Revan are both failures because Palpatine came along to be in existence at some point in time. The Republic is a failure because they couldn't stop Palpatine. Luke is a failure because he couldn't destroy the sith before all the NEW EU stuff. Everyone must be a failure... Geez.

This move by LA is the exact same thing we ALWAYS see in Star Wars. Sith are beaten, a few hundred years later they want the galaxy again, they get their butts whooped, but come back a few hundred years later.

 

Also, the FAQ does not tell you how GREAT this war is going to be. It simply says there is a war. When the game is actually released and all of the details revealed then we can speculate more on this issue.

 

If you told a person that hadn't played the KOTOR games that the Republic once fought the Mandalorians, they would have NO IDEA how bad the war actually was. That is our knowledge of this new conflict.

 

And like I said, it not impossible for the Exile/Revan to make a grand stand against the True Sith. (First of all, it was never said that that was their plan, it was stated that Revan did LEAVE to fight the True Sith, but not what his intentions/plans were). Like I said, 300 years passed. The Republic was not crushed instantly after the end of the Jedi Civil War. Revan (and maybe Exile) did beat the True Sith. The MMO is picking up where the Sith have rebuilt (Like they always do) and are trying to take over (like they always try).

 

About the Episodes, yes KOTOR is Episode IV: A new Hope (this even makes sense), KOTOR 2 is Episode V: The Empire Strikes back (Also makes sense) and yes, there is no Episode VI, but that is because it is not made. Think about it "Return of the Jedi" would make A LOT of sense as a third installment to the KOTOR series. Afterall int his MMO, we do not even know why the Jedi are rebuilt, or who did it and how long it took.

 

Unlike the movies, the MMO gives the KOTOR plot 300 years for things to happen. In the crappy new EU stuff, luke beats Palpatine, rebuilds the Jedi and the Galaxy is thrown into CHAOS AGAIN! Thats not even 100 years. Luke Skywalkers lifetime was filled with war and chaos and turmoil.

 

And, in my opinion, the fact that Revan did NOT return is even better. If Revan returned, we would know what happened. He would've either failed or succeeded. Had he succeeded, like you said, he probably would've kept everything a secret. Had he failed though, he probably would've warned hte Republic about what was out there so the Republic could do everything they could to prepare for a war, even if it did come 300 years later. Revan did not return however. This leaves a plethora of possibilities that could have happened (considering the immense time difference between KOTOR 2 and the MMO).

 

Also, you said NO Great War came, but wouldn't that mean Revan and the Exile did something great out there? We don't know what they did, so it is very possible there was a GREAT WAR in the unknown regions. It just wasn't fought between True Sith and Republic. It was fought between True Sith and something else, and revan and hte exile factored into all of it to destroy the threat and save the Republic from an imminent invasion that would've crushed it. SWtOR is simply a new star wars plot, in which the Sith are doing what they always do, being jerks and trying to conquer everything.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Rosbjerg
circumventing language filter