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Kotor3: Ideas, Suggestions, Discussion Part 26


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This novel is where I expect the fates of Revan and the exile to be tied off rather than in a KotOR3. I see no possibility that KotOR3 will be made now. At least not the KotOR3 that I was expecting, where Revan and the exile confront and ultimately defeat the threat of the true Sith Empire and then return to live in peace in the Republic. A KotOR3 could be made, sure, but to me it would now be KotOR3 in name only, because the true Sith plot now continues in TOR instead. So what did Revan and the exile do? That will now be only background in the game and more likely in this novel, I think.

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One thing that I think could really help determine if Revan failed is to determine what it was that Revan intended to do in the Unknown Regions. If you remember, the True Sith were planning on invading the Republic, and what did he do? He waged war on the Republic before the True Sith did. There is a chance that he did the same thing when he returned to the Unknown Regions. And, there could be a very slim chance that Revan wanted the war in TOR.

 

 

(I know, this is my attempt of trying to salvage something for a possibly good KOTOR III-pre TOR)

DAWUSS

 

 

Dawes ain't too bright. Hitting rock bottom is when you leave 2 tickets on the dash of your car, leave it unlocked hoping someone will steal them & when you come back, there are 4 tickets on your dashboard.
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One thing that I think could really help determine if Revan failed is to determine what it was that Revan intended to do in the Unknown Regions. If you remember, the True Sith were planning on invading the Republic, and what did he do? He waged war on the Republic before the True Sith did. There is a chance that he did the same thing when he returned to the Unknown Regions. And, there could be a very slim chance that Revan wanted the war in TOR.

 

 

(I know, this is my attempt of trying to salvage something for a possibly good KOTOR III-pre TOR)

 

Interesting post.

 

There are a lot of things that could have happened.

 

Now, I am not saying your above idea is BAD, but if Revan waged a war on the Republic before the True Sith did, what stopped the True Sith from stomping BOTH sides when they were at their weakest points towards the end of the war?

 

There is a lot at work here, and simply saying the Sith from unknown regions are in TOR does not ex out the fact that there can still be a very in depth and interesting story.

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1. "Return to the franchise in a grand way" - Explain how this means sequel, or the LAST part of the franchise that is ever going to be made? The Clone Wars returned to the franchise in a (Well not in my opinion) grand way, games are made in that time period, Star Wars Galaxies was made in the time period of Episode IV, all these returned to the franchise in a grand way. Yet there is always more room to build on plots (take the force unleashed as an example). Returning the franchise does not mean finishing the franchise. Now, if LucasArts would have said, "We are going to finish this franchise in a grand way." I would be P/Oed

Here's the thing, at the time most games and other media in star wars are set, it's already a foregone conclusion that the Republic/New Republic forces are clashing with an opponent of some kind. And while games have been coming out in these sections they have not been considered my the mainstream to be the main set of fiction. they all tell side stories about characters that we have no history with and thus the developers are given a fertile playground to plan and execute (to varying degrees of Quality) a war, or other conflict of galactic significance. What they ususally don't have to do is tie it in with another game thats currently in development and to be released as a world primairly based around armies of players doing quests and trying to cut each others **** off. Kotor 3 does have the conflict with the MMO and thus would have the ability of it's writers to fully explore certain things curtailed. The area that was the setting for some of the best star wars games to date was Post Endor. Why? Because while the monolithic empire had it's head cut off there was a VERY easy way to come up with a new character at a secret installation of some kind to threaten the New Republic. Or they were set so that they were telling a story that was glossed over because the player was a simple pilot or ground trooper. The Kotor era doesn't have anything like these two scenarios that could easily play out in an RPG. Sure you could be a ground pounder but that would make for probably the most boring RPG in exsistance. RPGs generally have to have the main character embroiled in a conflict that is MASSIVE. otherwise why wouldn't the group that you are fighting with just steamroll their way through the opposition. Honestly probably the best "small conflict" RPG I've ever played was the opening acts of FFXII. Rather than be a member of the standard 2 clashing empires you play as a kid who's from one of the smaller empires that gets forced to choose sides. Admittedly I didn't get very far in the game (only fought the first Judge) but even that still required two large empires to clash, and don't point to Kotor 2 as being a pinnacle of small wars, to set the stage for the conflict the writers had to wipe out the entire Jedi Order.

2. "Revan and the exile never returned from unknown space, but the Sith Empire did" - Why did they wait 300 years bud? Wouldn't it be the ideal time to attack the republic after both the MANDALORIAN and Jedi Civil Wars? Its like Germany versus Poland in World War II. They would've ROLLED the Republic, the only possible competent defenders would've been the Exile and companions and MAYBE Revan and companions. The "True Sith" would've won, end of story. The Galaxy would be in a period of Sith rule and control. Revan stopped them, but like all things bad and evil, they returned, took'em 300 years though, which tells me if they couldn't rebuild fast enough to attack a fledgling republic, Revan (possibly exile) did something very important.
Why Did they wait 300 years? Simple. They didn't have ANY forces what so ever to start with. I personally think that Bioware should have been yelled at by the LA "cannon bible" people because in the Kotor era, as I understand it, the chain of events is like this:

360 years prior to Kotor, the Great Hyperspace war Breaks out when a pair of Force sensatives randomly hit the hyperdrive and jump into the Sith Empire, The Sith Empire was lorded over by the decendands of Dark jedi who had been exiled about a millenia before this particular war, and cross breeding with the slave creatures they found gave birth to what is commonly called the Sith Race.

 

Timeline:

Great Hyperspace War

2000 years

Sith War

oh about 60 years

Jedi Civil War (which we all know about)

Five years

Kotor2

 

Now heres the thing Somehow in about 2 generations the Mandalorian armies went from being entirely made up of a different race (that looked like it was ripped from predator) to a group of people who were simply humans just with cybernetic implants and conditioning to make them Tough. Oh and the Basalisk war droid went from a bug like droid to looking like it was owned by Prince Xizor. So the Sith Empire had attacked, it'd just been defeated about 60 or so years prior to the events of Kotor 1, As to the True Sith? Well the only way that they could possibly be still around is if a faction of the Dark Jedi that had been exiled 1000 years before had somehow stayed OUT of the Great hyperspace war, and had kept their planets from being found by Republic war fleets. I'm guessing that this Sith Empire that we are dealing with for T:OR Idolize Exar Kun and Ulic or their contemporaries as those two were the most powerful Sith within memory.

Also, it is possible that the Sith attacking this Republic aren't the True Sith spoke of in KOTOR 2. Afterall, if only Kreia knew about the True Sith, how could the Rest of the galaxy put a name to their attackers and know that they were "The True Sith waiting in the dark corners of the galaxy plotting to take over the galaxy?" Those Sith could've been wiped out and remnants of their teachings could have been found and then the Sith order could have been rebuilt in the uknown regions of space. If I remember correctly, there are a lot of civilizations out in the unknown regions that the Republic still hasn't discovered yet.
Exactly now here's somthing that might blow your mind but My guess is that Kreia's idea of True Sith isn't that they are a seperate group of people, but rather they are an Ideology that is based around the Sith masters of old. The Sith and the Jedi get wiped out pretty regularly if we are to believe all the "cannon" that gets written and produced. So it's doubtful that a single group of Jedi or Sith could last two of the purges.
Also, I think the possibility of these, "Uber sith" you speak of was flawed straight from the beginning. No one said they were going to be more powerful than anything ever known. Kreia simply stated that they were rebuilding their empire on the borders of known-unknown space. Afterall, how would you beat an EMPIRE of nothing but "Uber sith"? They were simply darkside users left alone, watching the galaxy unfold like a chess game (or Dajarik in star wars terms).
Doubtful, most of the original Sith Empire was found and wiped out by the Republic during the great hyperspace war and Despite all the spotlights on Korribon the Siths true hq back in those days was Ziost. Also the Sith just by their nature probably couldn't put together an Empire without constant squabbling between the various lords without having a constant target to aim the various lords at. It stands to reason that the Sith Empire that Revan was supposedly going to go stop, probably didn't even know that the Republic existed except in legends, and even then they might have beaten themselves back to the stone age by the time revan got there.
"This makes Revan a failure, because he did not stop the True Sith."

 

That means EVERYONE is a failure. In the entire galaxy. No one every DESTROYS the Sith utterly to where they don't come back. I guess the Exile and Revan are both failures because Palpatine came along to be in existence at some point in time. The Republic is a failure because they couldn't stop Palpatine. Luke is a failure because he couldn't destroy the sith before all the NEW EU stuff. Everyone must be a failure... Geez.

This move by LA is the exact same thing we ALWAYS see in Star Wars. Sith are beaten, a few hundred years later they want the galaxy again, they get their butts whooped, but come back a few hundred years later.

 

Also, the FAQ does not tell you how GREAT this war is going to be. It simply says there is a war. When the game is actually released and all of the details revealed then we can speculate more on this issue.

Ok, Revan just went into the unknown regions, from everything I've seen it was either to stop the true sith, or rally the true sith. Also this war that has to occur between the nascent Sith and the Republic, is going to have to be one HECK of a war considering that the Republic has had 300 years of relative peace to rebuild and rearm itself, Admittedly they might become complacent but I'd guess that in a Republic as decentralized as this one is, there's always brush wars and rebellions and police actions occurring that would require a Republic military to put down. And this military would be supplemented by Regional forces raised out of the area the Military is fighting in. Once a REALLY large force started fighting most of the brush fires and rebellions would be forgotten by the main military and they'd rush to put a stop to the Siths drive into their territory.
If you told a person that hadn't played the KOTOR games that the Republic once fought the Mandalorians, they would have NO IDEA how bad the war actually was. That is our knowledge of this new conflict.

 

And like I said, it not impossible for the Exile/Revan to make a grand stand against the True Sith. (First of all, it was never said that that was their plan, it was stated that Revan did LEAVE to fight the True Sith, but not what his intentions/plans were). Like I said, 300 years passed. The Republic was not crushed instantly after the end of the Jedi Civil War. Revan (and maybe Exile) did beat the True Sith. The MMO is picking up where the Sith have rebuilt (Like they always do) and are trying to take over (like they always try).

Again, the Mandalorians question would depend on the age and the level of geek that you were talking to. The republic had fought Mandalorians in the Sith War. As for Kotor3 being done with the Exile and Revan vs. the Sith? the chance of this is practically impossible considering this would require not just an Attonesque series of questions for the player about alignment, class, gender (and lightsaber color), But also require not one, not two, but THREE character creations otherwise the company would loose money because the fans got angry that Revan and the Exile weren't their Revan and Exile. Also it is almost impossible that your character could be Revan or Exile again as this would require a depowering of either character in order for them to be playable as starting characters. I don't think that another klonk on the head will cause amnesia (which would be TERRIBLE storytelling). As NPC's you couldn't use Revan and Exile, nor could you have them really do anything as the psychotic fanbase would cry foul because "Revan are the bestest mostest powerfulest Jedi in the UNIVERSE! Nobody is better than Revan!" Why do fanbois cry this? because Revan (and Exile to a degree) are them. and they ALWAYS are the Top Dog. Exile is a WHOLE other animal in that he literally eats force potential and makes it his own. H He Echos the force potential of those around him and the stronger the echo, the stronger he is, and with his force bond making those around him stronger as he grows stronger, he could be a freaking god by the time he entered a Sith Society. Also IIRC the Faqs never even MENTION the Exile or the events of Kotor 2
About the Episodes, yes KOTOR is Episode IV: A new Hope (this even makes sense), KOTOR 2 is Episode V: The Empire Strikes back (Also makes sense) and yes, there is no Episode VI, but that is because it is not made. Think about it "Return of the Jedi" would make A LOT of sense as a third installment to the KOTOR series. Afterall int his MMO, we do not even know why the Jedi are rebuilt, or who did it and how long it took.

 

Unlike the movies, the MMO gives the KOTOR plot 300 years for things to happen. In the crappy new EU stuff, luke beats Palpatine, rebuilds the Jedi and the Galaxy is thrown into CHAOS AGAIN! Thats not even 100 years. Luke Skywalkers lifetime was filled with war and chaos and turmoil.

For the Jedi to be used as unit commanders rather than Generals (which I find strange given that a jedi probably wouldn't know how to get around a military map much less have a firm grasp of tactics and strategy) and for the Numbers to be high enough for a MMO playerbase to be able to choose a Jedi Knight right out of the gate you'd have to build the Order AND the Sith alot higher than Luke EVER did (I think the highest he got was about 500 or so, maybe 1000 including trainees that are good enough to fight) I'm talking by an order of MAGNITUDE rather than just adding a few thousand.

Ok on the Why the Order was rebuilt? Because that's LITERALLY what Kreia gave you if you had a lightside ending. Battlecookie(hassat Hunter) can dig around for the files but she literally tells you that the people you had around you excepting her and the droids would go on to become the new jedi council and teach rebuild the Jedi Order. Their teaching credentials however... Also who would you play in this grand end cap to the series? Some random punk who was trained by the only person who seemed to have an inkling of how to teach on Exiles team Handmaiden/(he wants to eat me)Disciple? Atton was too hard headed to be effective at teaching, Mira MIGHT after alot of work become a pretty good teacher, Visas would not take the transition well but could do it, Bao Dur's classes would be completly silent, Hanharr would kill the students and the Droids are nonentities. So basically for Part 3 of your epic trilogy to happen you'd have to wait about 18 years Maybe 10, for a student to be good enough to reach Knighthood, and then you'd want the player to run around and hunt for more recruits? Cause that was basically how Lukes school worked and it only turned out 500 pupils of ability in the 2ish generations it was running. And even then one of his best and brightest went "YAY DARK SIDE" and wiped em all out again. BRILLIANT plan there sport.

And, in my opinion, the fact that Revan did NOT return is even better. If Revan returned, we would know what happened. He would've either failed or succeeded. Had he succeeded, like you said, he probably would've kept everything a secret. Had he failed though, he probably would've warned hte Republic about what was out there so the Republic could do everything they could to prepare for a war, even if it did come 300 years later. Revan did not return however. This leaves a plethora of possibilities that could have happened (considering the immense time difference between KOTOR 2 and the MMO).

 

Also, you said NO Great War came, but wouldn't that mean Revan and the Exile did something great out there? We don't know what they did, so it is very possible there was a GREAT WAR in the unknown regions. It just wasn't fought between True Sith and Republic. It was fought between True Sith and something else, and revan and hte exile factored into all of it to destroy the threat and save the Republic from an imminent invasion that would've crushed it. SWtOR is simply a new star wars plot, in which the Sith are doing what they always do, being jerks and trying to conquer everything.

Revan not returning is practically a Given. I think the Faq's that Jediphile are quoting state that "Revan never returned from the unknown regions". As to his success or failure, that depends on his mission. If he was a dark sider in K1 (they seem to leave this up in the air for now) he went to build a new empire to supplement the one he had created with the star forge that, without it's head, devoured itself. Light side he went to forestall any big nasties coming out of the wood work and uniting the Sith to come tearing through the republic. As story telling goes, unless you are exceptional at it, you don't really have a very easy time when you have to follow certain rules for a certain outcome. Now I know Star Wars is some what fantastic in that no matter what happens there's always something big and evil coming. But from the way TOR is framed thus far, and the way the Kotor games have treated the galaxy, I highly doubt that a Kotor 3 would appear. It most likely will end up in a book as books are easier to write because people can have set personalities and power levels, AND it's pretty east to make the story only occur within a much smaller area. If they made a Kotor 3 it'd inevitably be not only compared to Kotors 1 and 2 but also to Mass Effect. And after players looked at the sheer size of the world they were let loose in during the events of Mass effect, People would view a single system or sector that was embroiled in a brush war as limited in comparison.

Edited by Calax

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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I personally think that Bioware should have been yelled at by the LA "cannon bible" people because in the Kotor era, as I understand it, the chain of events is like this:

360 years prior to Kotor, the Great Hyperspace war Breaks out when a pair of Force sensatives randomly hit the hyperdrive and jump into the Sith Empire, The Sith Empire was lorded over by the decendands of Dark jedi who had been exiled about a millenia before this particular war, and cross breeding with the slave creatures they found gave birth to what is commonly called the Sith Race.

 

Your timeline is a little off. Pardon me for revising the timeline (BBY = years Before the Battle of Yavin):

 

7003-6900 BBY: The Second Great Schism / Hundred Years Darkness - This is the conflict within the jedi order that ends with the dark jedi being exiled and going to Korriban to subject the Sith species and founding the Sith Empire.

 

5000 BBY: Great Hyperspace War - Naga Sadow's Sith Empire invades the Republic almost 2000 years later. The Republic resists, however, and between infighting among the Sith and retaliation from the Republic, the Sith Empire falls as a result.

 

4000-3996 BBY: The Great Sith War begins a thousand years later, when the jedi Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma fall to the dark side and become the new lords of the sith. The Sith Empire is not involved, though the force-ghost of Freedon Nadd guides Exar Kun to the dark side. Freedon Nadd was himself a student of Naga Sadow, though their exact history is still rather unclear.

 

3986 BBY: The Conclave on Exis Station and the redemption and death of Ulic Qel-Droma on Rhen Var. This is all fallout from the Great Sith War.

 

3976 BBY: The Mandalorians begin conquering worlds in the outer rim.

 

3964-3960 BBY: About 30 years after the end of the Great Sith War, The Mandalorian Wars begin when the Mandalorians attack Republic space. The war ends with the Mandalorians' defeat at Malachor V, where Revan kills Mandalore.

 

3959-3956 BBY: The Jedi Civil War begins a year after the Mandalorian Wars, when Revan and Malak return as conquerors. It ends with the events of KotOR1, when Revan kills Malak and destroys the Star Forge. A year later in 3955, Revan disappears into the unknown regions.

 

3955-3951 BBY: The First Jedi Purge sees the Sith Triumverate of Traya, Nihilus and Sion exterminate the Jedi Order in a "shadow war". The Jedi Order suffers a major blow, when in an attempt to discover their enemy it stages the The Conclave on Katarr in 3952 only to be destroyed by Darth Nihilus. The conflict ends with the return of the exile and the events of TSL. The exile then leaves the Republic to join Revan in the unknown regions.

 

3656 BBY: 295 years later the Sacking of Coruscant and the subsequent Treaty of Coruscant sets the stage for The Old Republic MMORPG.

 

As to the True Sith? Well the only way that they could possibly be still around is if a faction of the Dark Jedi that had been exiled 1000 years before had somehow stayed OUT of the Great hyperspace war, and had kept their planets from being found by Republic war fleets. I'm guessing that this Sith Empire that we are dealing with for T:OR Idolize Exar Kun and Ulic or their contemporaries as those two were the most powerful Sith within memory.

 

I'm not sure. We know very little of just what happened at the end of the Great Hyperspace War when the Sith Empire fell. Looking at the "Tales of the Jedi: Fall of the Sith Empire" comic books that described the event, it all seemed to be have been resolved in two battle fought consecutively, one when Naga Sadow's defeated forces returned to the Sith Empire only to be greeted by the hostile forces of Ludo Kressh, and another when the Republic fleet following Sadow back to the Sith Empire destroyed the remnants of both fleets. Wookieepedia clear presumes battles to have been fought over Korriban, but I'm not sure how they know that, since it is actually never mentioned in the comic book where these battles are fought. It would make sense, since Korriban is where the Daragons found their way to the Sith Empire, and the Republic forces followed coordinates he gave them before his death. But it's actually never stated in the story.

 

In any regard, the battles took place in space, so while that might destroyed the war machine of the Sith Empire and killed its leaders, it says nothing about the people of the empire - there is no evidence of the Republic performing planetary bombardments of Korriban or other Sith worlds, for example. Indeed, after the battle, Empress Teta makes a point of returning to the Republic immediately. The Sith Empire consisted of many planets, and it seems unlikely the Republic could have devastated it all in a single day. Besides, is that the sort of thing the Republic would do?

 

But I doubt the Sith Empire would idolize Exar Kun and Ulik (or Malak for that matter). They were all humans and fallen jedi with no bloodlines back to the sith empire. Revan might a different matter, if Kreia is correct that he left for the unkown regions to follow the call of home, but then again, he (canonically) redeemed himself, and the Sith would hate him for that even more.

 

Ok on the Why the Order was rebuilt? Because that's LITERALLY what Kreia gave you if you had a lightside ending. Battlecookie(hassat Hunter) can dig around for the files but she literally tells you that the people you had around you excepting her and the droids would go on to become the new jedi council and teach rebuild the Jedi Order.

 

Or someone else :)

 

Kreia (responding to the exile asking about the fate of his friends): "You travel with them for so long, yet you do not know them still. Feel them through the Force, feel what they feel, hear their thoughts and know them, as I fought to know you.They were the Lost Jedi, you know. The true Jedi, upon which the future will be built. They simply needed a leader, and a teacher."

 

So basically for Part 3 of your epic trilogy to happen you'd have to wait about 18 years Maybe 10, for a student to be good enough to reach Knighthood, and then you'd want the player to run around and hunt for more recruits? Cause that was basically how Lukes school worked and it only turned out 500 pupils of ability in the 2ish generations it was running. And even then one of his best and brightest went "YAY DARK SIDE" and wiped em all out again. BRILLIANT plan there sport.

 

Well, I agree with your observations here, but I think you're forgetting something too. Luke had no basis to found his academy on - he had to start from scratch with very few jedi. The same is not true at the end of TSL. The Jedi Order is decimated and most of the knights and masters dead, yes, but nobody ever says all the younglings and padawans were killed. And what about the other jedi of the era out there whose fates we don't know, such as Nomi, Vima, Jolee and Juhani. Clearly Bastila is still around as well. Even Kreia doesn't say they were all killed.

 

Kreia: "The loss of many Jedi Knights in the war against Malak has further weakened the Republic.Not all Jedi Knights fell in battle... some were seduced by the dark side and the teachings of the Sith.Other Jedi Knights abandoned the Order, claiming the Jedi Council's teaching of Malak and Revan caused them to turn on the Republic.Where once there were thousands, by the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi Knights remained."

 

Kreia: "The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings.The Jedi Academy on Dantooine is nothing more than a crater that echoes with the ghosts of dead Jedi.And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost.{Bitter, she was Revan's teacher}Many Jedi blamed the teachings of the Jedi Masters for Revan's fall... and the civil war that followed. These Jedi turned from the Jedi Order and set out to find their own truth - no one knows where these Lost Jedi travel now.Perhaps. And if they are not dead already, then their time runs short. The Sith will not spare any they find.Perhaps, but they are Jedi no longer. If the Sith have not already slain them, then they will not help you, nor can you help them."

 

Now, are those hundred only knights or does she mean both knights and masters? We don't know. But they have to cover all the jedi subsequently killed by herself, Nihilus and Sion, including Nihilus' attack on Kataar. If the masters are counted among those hundred, the number also includes Zhar, Dorak, Vandar, Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, Kavar, Vash and Atris, all of whom (with the possible exception of Atris) are dead by the end of TSL.

 

But note how Kreia also says that some jedi were disappointed by the order and left it (I guess Zez-Kai Ell represents their position in the game - he even says he is no longer a jedi at one point). And isn't Jolee in the first game an example of this? We don't know how many of those former "lost" jedi are out there, and they might return to help found a new order on their own ideals, the ideals of the old masters having clearly failed. The point is that Luke had to start from scratch, before almost an entire generation had passed since the order fell, and we know that Vader and Palpatine hunted all the survivors down and even killing the younglings. The same is not true in TSL, which seems more like it was the knights and masters - the teachers - who were killed, while the students were still there with no one to teach them. Disciple is a prime example of this. And all the events that led to this all took place within less than a decade. This leaves ranks of potentials to teach for a new academy. They'll need time, of course, but not as much as Luke did.

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1. "Return to the franchise in a grand way" - Explain how this means sequel, or the LAST part of the franchise that is ever going to be made? The Clone Wars returned to the franchise in a (Well not in my opinion) grand way, games are made in that time period, Star Wars Galaxies was made in the time period of Episode IV, all these returned to the franchise in a grand way. Yet there is always more room to build on plots (take the force unleashed as an example). Returning the franchise does not mean finishing the franchise. Now, if LucasArts would have said, "We are going to finish this franchise in a grand way." I would be P/Oed

Here's the thing, at the time most games and other media in star wars are set, it's already a foregone conclusion that the Republic/New Republic forces are clashing with an opponent of some kind. And while games have been coming out in these sections they have not been considered my the mainstream to be the main set of fiction. they all tell side stories about characters that we have no history with and thus the developers are given a fertile playground to plan and execute (to varying degrees of Quality) a war, or other conflict of galactic significance. What they ususally don't have to do is tie it in with another game thats currently in development and to be released as a world primairly based around armies of players doing quests and trying to cut each others **** off. Kotor 3 does have the conflict with the MMO and thus would have the ability of it's writers to fully explore certain things curtailed. The area that was the setting for some of the best star wars games to date was Post Endor. Why? Because while the monolithic empire had it's head cut off there was a VERY easy way to come up with a new character at a secret installation of some kind to threaten the New Republic. Or they were set so that they were telling a story that was glossed over because the player was a simple pilot or ground trooper. The Kotor era doesn't have anything like these two scenarios that could easily play out in an RPG. Sure you could be a ground pounder but that would make for probably the most boring RPG in exsistance. RPGs generally have to have the main character embroiled in a conflict that is MASSIVE. otherwise why wouldn't the group that you are fighting with just steamroll their way through the opposition. Honestly probably the best "small conflict" RPG I've ever played was the opening acts of FFXII. Rather than be a member of the standard 2 clashing empires you play as a kid who's from one of the smaller empires that gets forced to choose sides. Admittedly I didn't get very far in the game (only fought the first Judge) but even that still required two large empires to clash, and don't point to Kotor 2 as being a pinnacle of small wars, to set the stage for the conflict the writers had to wipe out the entire Jedi Order.

2. "Revan and the exile never returned from unknown space, but the Sith Empire did" - Why did they wait 300 years bud? Wouldn't it be the ideal time to attack the republic after both the MANDALORIAN and Jedi Civil Wars? Its like Germany versus Poland in World War II. They would've ROLLED the Republic, the only possible competent defenders would've been the Exile and companions and MAYBE Revan and companions. The "True Sith" would've won, end of story. The Galaxy would be in a period of Sith rule and control. Revan stopped them, but like all things bad and evil, they returned, took'em 300 years though, which tells me if they couldn't rebuild fast enough to attack a fledgling republic, Revan (possibly exile) did something very important.
Why Did they wait 300 years? Simple. They didn't have ANY forces what so ever to start with. I personally think that Bioware should have been yelled at by the LA "cannon bible" people because in the Kotor era, as I understand it, the chain of events is like this:

360 years prior to Kotor, the Great Hyperspace war Breaks out when a pair of Force sensatives randomly hit the hyperdrive and jump into the Sith Empire, The Sith Empire was lorded over by the decendands of Dark jedi who had been exiled about a millenia before this particular war, and cross breeding with the slave creatures they found gave birth to what is commonly called the Sith Race.

 

Timeline:

Great Hyperspace War

2000 years

Sith War

oh about 60 years

Jedi Civil War (which we all know about)

Five years

Kotor2

 

Now heres the thing Somehow in about 2 generations the Mandalorian armies went from being entirely made up of a different race (that looked like it was ripped from predator) to a group of people who were simply humans just with cybernetic implants and conditioning to make them Tough. Oh and the Basalisk war droid went from a bug like droid to looking like it was owned by Prince Xizor. So the Sith Empire had attacked, it'd just been defeated about 60 or so years prior to the events of Kotor 1, As to the True Sith? Well the only way that they could possibly be still around is if a faction of the Dark Jedi that had been exiled 1000 years before had somehow stayed OUT of the Great hyperspace war, and had kept their planets from being found by Republic war fleets. I'm guessing that this Sith Empire that we are dealing with for T:OR Idolize Exar Kun and Ulic or their contemporaries as those two were the most powerful Sith within memory.

Also, it is possible that the Sith attacking this Republic aren't the True Sith spoke of in KOTOR 2. Afterall, if only Kreia knew about the True Sith, how could the Rest of the galaxy put a name to their attackers and know that they were "The True Sith waiting in the dark corners of the galaxy plotting to take over the galaxy?" Those Sith could've been wiped out and remnants of their teachings could have been found and then the Sith order could have been rebuilt in the uknown regions of space. If I remember correctly, there are a lot of civilizations out in the unknown regions that the Republic still hasn't discovered yet.
Exactly now here's somthing that might blow your mind but My guess is that Kreia's idea of True Sith isn't that they are a seperate group of people, but rather they are an Ideology that is based around the Sith masters of old. The Sith and the Jedi get wiped out pretty regularly if we are to believe all the "cannon" that gets written and produced. So it's doubtful that a single group of Jedi or Sith could last two of the purges.
Also, I think the possibility of these, "Uber sith" you speak of was flawed straight from the beginning. No one said they were going to be more powerful than anything ever known. Kreia simply stated that they were rebuilding their empire on the borders of known-unknown space. Afterall, how would you beat an EMPIRE of nothing but "Uber sith"? They were simply darkside users left alone, watching the galaxy unfold like a chess game (or Dajarik in star wars terms).
Doubtful, most of the original Sith Empire was found and wiped out by the Republic during the great hyperspace war and Despite all the spotlights on Korribon the Siths true hq back in those days was Ziost. Also the Sith just by their nature probably couldn't put together an Empire without constant squabbling between the various lords without having a constant target to aim the various lords at. It stands to reason that the Sith Empire that Revan was supposedly going to go stop, probably didn't even know that the Republic existed except in legends, and even then they might have beaten themselves back to the stone age by the time revan got there.
"This makes Revan a failure, because he did not stop the True Sith."

 

That means EVERYONE is a failure. In the entire galaxy. No one every DESTROYS the Sith utterly to where they don't come back. I guess the Exile and Revan are both failures because Palpatine came along to be in existence at some point in time. The Republic is a failure because they couldn't stop Palpatine. Luke is a failure because he couldn't destroy the sith before all the NEW EU stuff. Everyone must be a failure... Geez.

This move by LA is the exact same thing we ALWAYS see in Star Wars. Sith are beaten, a few hundred years later they want the galaxy again, they get their butts whooped, but come back a few hundred years later.

 

Also, the FAQ does not tell you how GREAT this war is going to be. It simply says there is a war. When the game is actually released and all of the details revealed then we can speculate more on this issue.

Ok, Revan just went into the unknown regions, from everything I've seen it was either to stop the true sith, or rally the true sith. Also this war that has to occur between the nascent Sith and the Republic, is going to have to be one HECK of a war considering that the Republic has had 300 years of relative peace to rebuild and rearm itself, Admittedly they might become complacent but I'd guess that in a Republic as decentralized as this one is, there's always brush wars and rebellions and police actions occurring that would require a Republic military to put down. And this military would be supplemented by Regional forces raised out of the area the Military is fighting in. Once a REALLY large force started fighting most of the brush fires and rebellions would be forgotten by the main military and they'd rush to put a stop to the Siths drive into their territory.
If you told a person that hadn't played the KOTOR games that the Republic once fought the Mandalorians, they would have NO IDEA how bad the war actually was. That is our knowledge of this new conflict.

 

And like I said, it not impossible for the Exile/Revan to make a grand stand against the True Sith. (First of all, it was never said that that was their plan, it was stated that Revan did LEAVE to fight the True Sith, but not what his intentions/plans were). Like I said, 300 years passed. The Republic was not crushed instantly after the end of the Jedi Civil War. Revan (and maybe Exile) did beat the True Sith. The MMO is picking up where the Sith have rebuilt (Like they always do) and are trying to take over (like they always try).

Again, the Mandalorians question would depend on the age and the level of geek that you were talking to. The republic had fought Mandalorians in the Sith War. As for Kotor3 being done with the Exile and Revan vs. the Sith? the chance of this is practically impossible considering this would require not just an Attonesque series of questions for the player about alignment, class, gender (and lightsaber color), But also require not one, not two, but THREE character creations otherwise the company would loose money because the fans got angry that Revan and the Exile weren't their Revan and Exile. Also it is almost impossible that your character could be Revan or Exile again as this would require a depowering of either character in order for them to be playable as starting characters. I don't think that another klonk on the head will cause amnesia (which would be TERRIBLE storytelling). As NPC's you couldn't use Revan and Exile, nor could you have them really do anything as the psychotic fanbase would cry foul because "Revan are the bestest mostest powerfulest Jedi in the UNIVERSE! Nobody is better than Revan!" Why do fanbois cry this? because Revan (and Exile to a degree) are them. and they ALWAYS are the Top Dog. Exile is a WHOLE other animal in that he literally eats force potential and makes it his own. H He Echos the force potential of those around him and the stronger the echo, the stronger he is, and with his force bond making those around him stronger as he grows stronger, he could be a freaking god by the time he entered a Sith Society. Also IIRC the Faqs never even MENTION the Exile or the events of Kotor 2
About the Episodes, yes KOTOR is Episode IV: A new Hope (this even makes sense), KOTOR 2 is Episode V: The Empire Strikes back (Also makes sense) and yes, there is no Episode VI, but that is because it is not made. Think about it "Return of the Jedi" would make A LOT of sense as a third installment to the KOTOR series. Afterall int his MMO, we do not even know why the Jedi are rebuilt, or who did it and how long it took.

 

Unlike the movies, the MMO gives the KOTOR plot 300 years for things to happen. In the crappy new EU stuff, luke beats Palpatine, rebuilds the Jedi and the Galaxy is thrown into CHAOS AGAIN! Thats not even 100 years. Luke Skywalkers lifetime was filled with war and chaos and turmoil.

For the Jedi to be used as unit commanders rather than Generals (which I find strange given that a jedi probably wouldn't know how to get around a military map much less have a firm grasp of tactics and strategy) and for the Numbers to be high enough for a MMO playerbase to be able to choose a Jedi Knight right out of the gate you'd have to build the Order AND the Sith alot higher than Luke EVER did (I think the highest he got was about 500 or so, maybe 1000 including trainees that are good enough to fight) I'm talking by an order of MAGNITUDE rather than just adding a few thousand.

Ok on the Why the Order was rebuilt? Because that's LITERALLY what Kreia gave you if you had a lightside ending. Battlecookie(hassat Hunter) can dig around for the files but she literally tells you that the people you had around you excepting her and the droids would go on to become the new jedi council and teach rebuild the Jedi Order. Their teaching credentials however... Also who would you play in this grand end cap to the series? Some random punk who was trained by the only person who seemed to have an inkling of how to teach on Exiles team Handmaiden/(he wants to eat me)Disciple? Atton was too hard headed to be effective at teaching, Mira MIGHT after alot of work become a pretty good teacher, Visas would not take the transition well but could do it, Bao Dur's classes would be completly silent, Hanharr would kill the students and the Droids are nonentities. So basically for Part 3 of your epic trilogy to happen you'd have to wait about 18 years Maybe 10, for a student to be good enough to reach Knighthood, and then you'd want the player to run around and hunt for more recruits? Cause that was basically how Lukes school worked and it only turned out 500 pupils of ability in the 2ish generations it was running. And even then one of his best and brightest went "YAY DARK SIDE" and wiped em all out again. BRILLIANT plan there sport.

And, in my opinion, the fact that Revan did NOT return is even better. If Revan returned, we would know what happened. He would've either failed or succeeded. Had he succeeded, like you said, he probably would've kept everything a secret. Had he failed though, he probably would've warned hte Republic about what was out there so the Republic could do everything they could to prepare for a war, even if it did come 300 years later. Revan did not return however. This leaves a plethora of possibilities that could have happened (considering the immense time difference between KOTOR 2 and the MMO).

 

Also, you said NO Great War came, but wouldn't that mean Revan and the Exile did something great out there? We don't know what they did, so it is very possible there was a GREAT WAR in the unknown regions. It just wasn't fought between True Sith and Republic. It was fought between True Sith and something else, and revan and hte exile factored into all of it to destroy the threat and save the Republic from an imminent invasion that would've crushed it. SWtOR is simply a new star wars plot, in which the Sith are doing what they always do, being jerks and trying to conquer everything.

Revan not returning is practically a Given. I think the Faq's that Jediphile are quoting state that "Revan never returned from the unknown regions". As to his success or failure, that depends on his mission. If he was a dark sider in K1 (they seem to leave this up in the air for now) he went to build a new empire to supplement the one he had created with the star forge that, without it's head, devoured itself. Light side he went to forestall any big nasties coming out of the wood work and uniting the Sith to come tearing through the republic. As story telling goes, unless you are exceptional at it, you don't really have a very easy time when you have to follow certain rules for a certain outcome. Now I know Star Wars is some what fantastic in that no matter what happens there's always something big and evil coming. But from the way TOR is framed thus far, and the way the Kotor games have treated the galaxy, I highly doubt that a Kotor 3 would appear. It most likely will end up in a book as books are easier to write because people can have set personalities and power levels, AND it's pretty east to make the story only occur within a much smaller area. If they made a Kotor 3 it'd inevitably be not only compared to Kotors 1 and 2 but also to Mass Effect. And after players looked at the sheer size of the world they were let loose in during the events of Mass effect, People would view a single system or sector that was embroiled in a brush war as limited in comparison.

 

1. True. But there is no foregone conclusion to Revan's mission in the unknown regions, thus we must have a game to tell us what happened.

 

2. Ok, so you are saying that Sith who have been in the unknown regions for a couple thousand years undisturbed had no forces to invade the Republic with during the Jedi Civil War? Then why the heck did Revan make such a big deal out of them? There was a obviously a really huge threat out there, waiting and plotting. Otherwise, Revan wouldn't have cared.

 

3. I agree. I never said that I thought the True Sith were a specific race or anything like that. I simply believe the True Sith are people, of many races, who are following older, more trusted Sith teachings from some of the greatest Sith lords to have ever lived.

 

4. As long as the common enemy exists for the Sith, they can unite and fight. Until there is no enemy, their hierarchy will not break down IMO.

 

5. I'm not sure if you are arguing with me here or not.

 

6. These are all game mechanics. These can be easily overcome.

 

a. Letting you customize the way the Exile and Revan look upon meeting either or of the characters would not be hard, and would let people make Revan and the Exile the way they wanted to make them.

 

b. Questions are an easy thing. A Revan-Exile conversation would be very easy to do considering the Exile was Revan's top general, and probably best friend next to Malak.

 

c. The whole, "Losing some power thing" can be easily done. It doesn't have to be amnesia or something stupid. Its a GAME, let us not forget. Maybe these new places you are exploring are so filled with vile energy you cannot fully use your powers until you learn to control the force in these areas that are so filled with these intense force energies. If worse comes to worse it needs no explanation. Suspension of disbelief is when the audience suspends any disbelief of the game, film, musical, what have you, in order to more fully enjoy it.

 

d. Choice is an excellent thing. I don't understand why it would be an idea to let the player choose whether to be Revan or the Exile, and come up with dialogue options for either one. That way, if you like the Exile more than Revan or vice versa, you can play as who you want and have dialogue options. Just because we have a KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2, does not mean that a KOTOR 3 can't try new things.

 

7. Read above. And I'm also pretty sure that ALL the Jedi aren't dead, thats what the games lead us to believe, but I'm sure there are a few in hiding out there.

 

8. As I have stated. There is a plethora of possibilities. Literally ANYTHING could have happened in the unknown regions. I mean ANYTHING. KOTOR 3 does not have to take place IN THE REPUBLIC and tell everyone how the Jedi order was rebuilt. It can be a more secluded, plot-answering-question game. You would finally find out what everyone was talking about, and then fight/unite/smack-talk whatever was out in the unknown regions.

 

The thing is, we don't know nearly enough about this immense plot to conclude it just on the release of this MMO.

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I personally think that Bioware should have been yelled at by the LA "cannon bible" people because in the Kotor era, as I understand it, the chain of events is like this:

360 years prior to Kotor, the Great Hyperspace war Breaks out when a pair of Force sensatives randomly hit the hyperdrive and jump into the Sith Empire, The Sith Empire was lorded over by the decendands of Dark jedi who had been exiled about a millenia before this particular war, and cross breeding with the slave creatures they found gave birth to what is commonly called the Sith Race.

 

Your timeline is a little off. Pardon me for revising the timeline (BBY = years Before the Battle of Yavin):

 

7003-6900 BBY: The Second Great Schism / Hundred Years Darkness - This is the conflict within the jedi order that ends with the dark jedi being exiled and going to Korriban to subject the Sith species and founding the Sith Empire.

 

5000 BBY: Great Hyperspace War - Naga Sadow's Sith Empire invades the Republic almost 2000 years later. The Republic resists, however, and between infighting among the Sith and retaliation from the Republic, the Sith Empire falls as a result.

 

4000-3996 BBY: The Great Sith War begins a thousand years later, when the jedi Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma fall to the dark side and become the new lords of the sith. The Sith Empire is not involved, though the force-ghost of Freedon Nadd guides Exar Kun to the dark side. Freedon Nadd was himself a student of Naga Sadow, though their exact history is still rather unclear.

 

3986 BBY: The Conclave on Exis Station and the redemption and death of Ulic Qel-Droma on Rhen Var. This is all fallout from the Great Sith War.

 

3976 BBY: The Mandalorians begin conquering worlds in the outer rim.

 

3964-3960 BBY: About 30 years after the end of the Great Sith War, The Mandalorian Wars begin when the Mandalorians attack Republic space. The war ends with the Mandalorians' defeat at Malachor V, where Revan kills Mandalore.

 

3959-3956 BBY: The Jedi Civil War begins a year after the Mandalorian Wars, when Revan and Malak return as conquerors. It ends with the events of KotOR1, when Revan kills Malak and destroys the Star Forge. A year later in 3955, Revan disappears into the unknown regions.

 

3955-3951 BBY: The First Jedi Purge sees the Sith Triumverate of Traya, Nihilus and Sion exterminate the Jedi Order in a "shadow war". The Jedi Order suffers a major blow, when in an attempt to discover their enemy it stages the The Conclave on Katarr in 3952 only to be destroyed by Darth Nihilus. The conflict ends with the return of the exile and the events of TSL. The exile then leaves the Republic to join Revan in the unknown regions.

 

3656 BBY: 295 years later the Sacking of Coruscant and the subsequent Treaty of Coruscant sets the stage for The Old Republic MMORPG.

 

As to the True Sith? Well the only way that they could possibly be still around is if a faction of the Dark Jedi that had been exiled 1000 years before had somehow stayed OUT of the Great hyperspace war, and had kept their planets from being found by Republic war fleets. I'm guessing that this Sith Empire that we are dealing with for T:OR Idolize Exar Kun and Ulic or their contemporaries as those two were the most powerful Sith within memory.

 

I'm not sure. We know very little of just what happened at the end of the Great Hyperspace War when the Sith Empire fell. Looking at the "Tales of the Jedi: Fall of the Sith Empire" comic books that described the event, it all seemed to be have been resolved in two battle fought consecutively, one when Naga Sadow's defeated forces returned to the Sith Empire only to be greeted by the hostile forces of Ludo Kressh, and another when the Republic fleet following Sadow back to the Sith Empire destroyed the remnants of both fleets. Wookieepedia clear presumes battles to have been fought over Korriban, but I'm not sure how they know that, since it is actually never mentioned in the comic book where these battles are fought. It would make sense, since Korriban is where the Daragons found their way to the Sith Empire, and the Republic forces followed coordinates he gave them before his death. But it's actually never stated in the story.

 

In any regard, the battles took place in space, so while that might destroyed the war machine of the Sith Empire and killed its leaders, it says nothing about the people of the empire - there is no evidence of the Republic performing planetary bombardments of Korriban or other Sith worlds, for example. Indeed, after the battle, Empress Teta makes a point of returning to the Republic immediately. The Sith Empire consisted of many planets, and it seems unlikely the Republic could have devastated it all in a single day. Besides, is that the sort of thing the Republic would do?

 

But I doubt the Sith Empire would idolize Exar Kun and Ulik (or Malak for that matter). They were all humans and fallen jedi with no bloodlines back to the sith empire. Revan might a different matter, if Kreia is correct that he left for the unkown regions to follow the call of home, but then again, he (canonically) redeemed himself, and the Sith would hate him for that even more.

 

Ok on the Why the Order was rebuilt? Because that's LITERALLY what Kreia gave you if you had a lightside ending. Battlecookie(hassat Hunter) can dig around for the files but she literally tells you that the people you had around you excepting her and the droids would go on to become the new jedi council and teach rebuild the Jedi Order.

 

Or someone else :)

 

Kreia (responding to the exile asking about the fate of his friends): "You travel with them for so long, yet you do not know them still. Feel them through the Force, feel what they feel, hear their thoughts and know them, as I fought to know you.They were the Lost Jedi, you know. The true Jedi, upon which the future will be built. They simply needed a leader, and a teacher."

 

So basically for Part 3 of your epic trilogy to happen you'd have to wait about 18 years Maybe 10, for a student to be good enough to reach Knighthood, and then you'd want the player to run around and hunt for more recruits? Cause that was basically how Lukes school worked and it only turned out 500 pupils of ability in the 2ish generations it was running. And even then one of his best and brightest went "YAY DARK SIDE" and wiped em all out again. BRILLIANT plan there sport.

 

Well, I agree with your observations here, but I think you're forgetting something too. Luke had no basis to found his academy on - he had to start from scratch with very few jedi. The same is not true at the end of TSL. The Jedi Order is decimated and most of the knights and masters dead, yes, but nobody ever says all the younglings and padawans were killed. And what about the other jedi of the era out there whose fates we don't know, such as Nomi, Vima, Jolee and Juhani. Clearly Bastila is still around as well. Even Kreia doesn't say they were all killed.

 

Kreia: "The loss of many Jedi Knights in the war against Malak has further weakened the Republic.Not all Jedi Knights fell in battle... some were seduced by the dark side and the teachings of the Sith.Other Jedi Knights abandoned the Order, claiming the Jedi Council's teaching of Malak and Revan caused them to turn on the Republic.Where once there were thousands, by the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi Knights remained."

 

Kreia: "The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings.The Jedi Academy on Dantooine is nothing more than a crater that echoes with the ghosts of dead Jedi.And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost.{Bitter, she was Revan's teacher}Many Jedi blamed the teachings of the Jedi Masters for Revan's fall... and the civil war that followed. These Jedi turned from the Jedi Order and set out to find their own truth - no one knows where these Lost Jedi travel now.Perhaps. And if they are not dead already, then their time runs short. The Sith will not spare any they find.Perhaps, but they are Jedi no longer. If the Sith have not already slain them, then they will not help you, nor can you help them."

 

Now, are those hundred only knights or does she mean both knights and masters? We don't know. But they have to cover all the jedi subsequently killed by herself, Nihilus and Sion, including Nihilus' attack on Kataar. If the masters are counted among those hundred, the number also includes Zhar, Dorak, Vandar, Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, Kavar, Vash and Atris, all of whom (with the possible exception of Atris) are dead by the end of TSL.

 

But note how Kreia also says that some jedi were disappointed by the order and left it (I guess Zez-Kai Ell represents their position in the game - he even says he is no longer a jedi at one point). And isn't Jolee in the first game an example of this? We don't know how many of those former "lost" jedi are out there, and they might return to help found a new order on their own ideals, the ideals of the old masters having clearly failed. The point is that Luke had to start from scratch, before almost an entire generation had passed since the order fell, and we know that Vader and Palpatine hunted all the survivors down and even killing the younglings. The same is not true in TSL, which seems more like it was the knights and masters - the teachers - who were killed, while the students were still there with no one to teach them. Disciple is a prime example of this. And all the events that led to this all took place within less than a decade. This leaves ranks of potentials to teach for a new academy. They'll need time, of course, but not as much as Luke did.

 

I agree with your points.

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1. True. But there is no foregone conclusion to Revan's mission in the unknown regions, thus we must have a game to tell us what happened.
I fail to see how we MUST have a game. It's more than likely that LA would hire a single writer to tell that smaller story rather than a team of writers, modelers, actors, programmers, designers, and marketers to get a game.
2. Ok, so you are saying that Sith who have been in the unknown regions for a couple thousand years undisturbed had no forces to invade the Republic with during the Jedi Civil War? Then why the heck did Revan make such a big deal out of them? There was a obviously a really huge threat out there, waiting and plotting. Otherwise, Revan wouldn't have cared.
If the Sith were out there they were probably more worried about what eachother was going to do. The only way one particular Sith rose to dominence was through either killing every other Lord or by focusing on an external threat. Given that the republic has been of minimal threat over a couple of thousand years it's doubtful they'd be patient enough to wait until the republic was weak to attack. I believe that the Sith would instead be plagued with internal strife and civil wars until either an outside force alerted them to the presence that they weren't alone, or they finally found artifacts telling about the outside world.
3. I agree. I never said that I thought the True Sith were a specific race or anything like that. I simply believe the True Sith are people, of many races, who are following older, more trusted Sith teachings from some of the greatest Sith lords to have ever lived.

 

4. As long as the common enemy exists for the Sith, they can unite and fight. Until there is no enemy, their hierarchy will not break down IMO.

 

5. I'm not sure if you are arguing with me here or not.

It's been thousands of years since the Sith have heard from the republic. How would they even knew it exsisted except in Legend (or Revan stumbling drunkenly into their sphere of influence). It's like us believeing that Methusela and other members of biblical times not only were able to inbreed without problems, but also survived for close to 1000 years each. It's more likely that the Republic lives as a sort of mythical Harbinger of Doom to scare little sith kids into bed.
6. These are all game mechanics. These can be easily overcome.

 

a. Letting you customize the way the Exile and Revan look upon meeting either or of the characters would not be hard, and would let people make Revan and the Exile the way they wanted to make them.

 

b. Questions are an easy thing. A Revan-Exile conversation would be very easy to do considering the Exile was Revan's top general, and probably best friend next to Malak.

 

c. The whole, "Losing some power thing" can be easily done. It doesn't have to be amnesia or something stupid. Its a GAME, let us not forget. Maybe these new places you are exploring are so filled with vile energy you cannot fully use your powers until you learn to control the force in these areas that are so filled with these intense force energies. If worse comes to worse it needs no explanation. Suspension of disbelief is when the audience suspends any disbelief of the game, film, musical, what have you, in order to more fully enjoy it.

So you want to make the developers not only have to record about 16 different lines saying similar things but with a flavor for Revan being LS male LS female DS male DS female, the same thing for Exile, and then the combinations there of. Also if you give Revan and Exile ANY lines they'd either have to be in the Nihilus toilet draining style or get criticized by fans for not having the right voice. It would require too much work dev side for a little bit of plot consequential choice. As to depowering, I don't think I've ever seen an instance where all pervasive darkness has caused characters to go out of control. Cloud their judgement? Maybe but loose control to the point of being dangerous? not the force. As to it not needing an explanation that's just a steaming pile of crap, there have been times where somthing goes unexplained about why somthing happens that is CENTRAL TO THE PLOT and the backlash from critics and fans is tremendous. If somthing happens that is central to the plot you generally try to explain it as best you can so that people can really get into the game world if you don't tell why somthing like the hero from the previous game getting his powers eaten by a gremlin and thus is only strong enough to beat up a Gizka, then your audience will have a serious problem getting into your world. Particularly a fan of the previous game, who is your main market.
d. Choice is an excellent thing. I don't understand why it would be an idea to let the player choose whether to be Revan or the Exile, and come up with dialogue options for either one. That way, if you like the Exile more than Revan or vice versa, you can play as who you want and have dialogue options. Just because we have a KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2, does not mean that a KOTOR 3 can't try new things.
the amount of work to pull this off would be staggering on the writers part. They'd pretty much have to come up with either two storylines, or a story so generic Darth Vader could walk in and pull it off believably.
7. Read above. And I'm also pretty sure that ALL the Jedi aren't dead, thats what the games lead us to believe, but I'm sure there are a few in hiding out there.
Every Jedi that was able to act as a Knight was slaughtered. Even Jediphile agrees, but he also brings up a good point in that the Jedi padawans and trainees probably weren't killed (or deemed worth it by the Sith Lords). But I think that one thing that Jediphile glosses over is that while yes, there are people who've received at least some training by their masters before the masters were wiped out, most of the artifacts and training aids that he Jedi used were stolen and sold on the black market. I think that the games also (admittedly this stems from the games not having much to do with the comics from a decade earlier) gloss over the fact that 60 years prior to the events in k1 Ossus was demolished. Ossus was the Jedi equivalent of the Library of Congress. And it was hit with a tidal wave of force from a series of nearby stars going supernova. So while luke had nothing and was able to get maybe 500 Jedi able to act independantly of his Order, the Exiles disciples probably were able to have a bit of a head start but wouldn't be anywhere NEAR the levels that they were at the start of the Sith War, even after 200 years. and with the alarming regularity of the Jedi Order being wiped out in stories, I'd guess that if we made another game the fledgling Order would have it's numbers cut again.
8. As I have stated. There is a plethora of possibilities. Literally ANYTHING could have happened in the unknown regions. I mean ANYTHING. KOTOR 3 does not have to take place IN THE REPUBLIC and tell everyone how the Jedi order was rebuilt. It can be a more secluded, plot-answering-question game. You would finally find out what everyone was talking about, and then fight/unite/smack-talk whatever was out in the unknown regions.

 

The thing is, we don't know nearly enough about this immense plot to conclude it just on the release of this MMO.

Like I've stated elsewhere, Logistically and in terms of Marketability its doubtful that Kotor 3 would be developed or released while the MMO was still going on. However as to taking the Knights of the OLD REPUBLIC out of the Republic (Star Wars Knights?), Yes this would open possibilities but it still wouldn't let you use Revan or Exile as both these characters have stupifying power levels (if fan hype is to be believed, or in Exiles case the way his powers work) and to either force the players to believe that the Ex-Dark Lord and his General would reign in their powers so that they didn't kill someone stretches the imagination. Also if you were to set it in the Sith Empire it'd be particularly hard to have a player be rewarded for ANY lightside action. Darkside, yeah you guys get an easy path, but to immerse yourself in the Sith and still come out smelling like roses is just unbelievable.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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1. True. But there is no foregone conclusion to Revan's mission in the unknown regions, thus we must have a game to tell us what happened.
I fail to see how we MUST have a game. It's more than likely that LA would hire a single writer to tell that smaller story rather than a team of writers, modelers, actors, programmers, designers, and marketers to get a game.
2. Ok, so you are saying that Sith who have been in the unknown regions for a couple thousand years undisturbed had no forces to invade the Republic with during the Jedi Civil War? Then why the heck did Revan make such a big deal out of them? There was a obviously a really huge threat out there, waiting and plotting. Otherwise, Revan wouldn't have cared.
If the Sith were out there they were probably more worried about what eachother was going to do. The only way one particular Sith rose to dominence was through either killing every other Lord or by focusing on an external threat. Given that the republic has been of minimal threat over a couple of thousand years it's doubtful they'd be patient enough to wait until the republic was weak to attack. I believe that the Sith would instead be plagued with internal strife and civil wars until either an outside force alerted them to the presence that they weren't alone, or they finally found artifacts telling about the outside world.
3. I agree. I never said that I thought the True Sith were a specific race or anything like that. I simply believe the True Sith are people, of many races, who are following older, more trusted Sith teachings from some of the greatest Sith lords to have ever lived.

 

4. As long as the common enemy exists for the Sith, they can unite and fight. Until there is no enemy, their hierarchy will not break down IMO.

 

5. I'm not sure if you are arguing with me here or not.

It's been thousands of years since the Sith have heard from the republic. How would they even knew it exsisted except in Legend (or Revan stumbling drunkenly into their sphere of influence). It's like us believeing that Methusela and other members of biblical times not only were able to inbreed without problems, but also survived for close to 1000 years each. It's more likely that the Republic lives as a sort of mythical Harbinger of Doom to scare little sith kids into bed.
6. These are all game mechanics. These can be easily overcome.

 

a. Letting you customize the way the Exile and Revan look upon meeting either or of the characters would not be hard, and would let people make Revan and the Exile the way they wanted to make them.

 

b. Questions are an easy thing. A Revan-Exile conversation would be very easy to do considering the Exile was Revan's top general, and probably best friend next to Malak.

 

c. The whole, "Losing some power thing" can be easily done. It doesn't have to be amnesia or something stupid. Its a GAME, let us not forget. Maybe these new places you are exploring are so filled with vile energy you cannot fully use your powers until you learn to control the force in these areas that are so filled with these intense force energies. If worse comes to worse it needs no explanation. Suspension of disbelief is when the audience suspends any disbelief of the game, film, musical, what have you, in order to more fully enjoy it.

So you want to make the developers not only have to record about 16 different lines saying similar things but with a flavor for Revan being LS male LS female DS male DS female, the same thing for Exile, and then the combinations there of. Also if you give Revan and Exile ANY lines they'd either have to be in the Nihilus toilet draining style or get criticized by fans for not having the right voice. It would require too much work dev side for a little bit of plot consequential choice. As to depowering, I don't think I've ever seen an instance where all pervasive darkness has caused characters to go out of control. Cloud their judgement? Maybe but loose control to the point of being dangerous? not the force. As to it not needing an explanation that's just a steaming pile of crap, there have been times where somthing goes unexplained about why somthing happens that is CENTRAL TO THE PLOT and the backlash from critics and fans is tremendous. If somthing happens that is central to the plot you generally try to explain it as best you can so that people can really get into the game world if you don't tell why somthing like the hero from the previous game getting his powers eaten by a gremlin and thus is only strong enough to beat up a Gizka, then your audience will have a serious problem getting into your world. Particularly a fan of the previous game, who is your main market.
d. Choice is an excellent thing. I don't understand why it would be an idea to let the player choose whether to be Revan or the Exile, and come up with dialogue options for either one. That way, if you like the Exile more than Revan or vice versa, you can play as who you want and have dialogue options. Just because we have a KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2, does not mean that a KOTOR 3 can't try new things.
the amount of work to pull this off would be staggering on the writers part. They'd pretty much have to come up with either two storylines, or a story so generic Darth Vader could walk in and pull it off believably.
7. Read above. And I'm also pretty sure that ALL the Jedi aren't dead, thats what the games lead us to believe, but I'm sure there are a few in hiding out there.
Every Jedi that was able to act as a Knight was slaughtered. Even Jediphile agrees, but he also brings up a good point in that the Jedi padawans and trainees probably weren't killed (or deemed worth it by the Sith Lords). But I think that one thing that Jediphile glosses over is that while yes, there are people who've received at least some training by their masters before the masters were wiped out, most of the artifacts and training aids that he Jedi used were stolen and sold on the black market. I think that the games also (admittedly this stems from the games not having much to do with the comics from a decade earlier) gloss over the fact that 60 years prior to the events in k1 Ossus was demolished. Ossus was the Jedi equivalent of the Library of Congress. And it was hit with a tidal wave of force from a series of nearby stars going supernova. So while luke had nothing and was able to get maybe 500 Jedi able to act independantly of his Order, the Exiles disciples probably were able to have a bit of a head start but wouldn't be anywhere NEAR the levels that they were at the start of the Sith War, even after 200 years. and with the alarming regularity of the Jedi Order being wiped out in stories, I'd guess that if we made another game the fledgling Order would have it's numbers cut again.
8. As I have stated. There is a plethora of possibilities. Literally ANYTHING could have happened in the unknown regions. I mean ANYTHING. KOTOR 3 does not have to take place IN THE REPUBLIC and tell everyone how the Jedi order was rebuilt. It can be a more secluded, plot-answering-question game. You would finally find out what everyone was talking about, and then fight/unite/smack-talk whatever was out in the unknown regions.

 

The thing is, we don't know nearly enough about this immense plot to conclude it just on the release of this MMO.

Like I've stated elsewhere, Logistically and in terms of Marketability its doubtful that Kotor 3 would be developed or released while the MMO was still going on. However as to taking the Knights of the OLD REPUBLIC out of the Republic (Star Wars Knights?), Yes this would open possibilities but it still wouldn't let you use Revan or Exile as both these characters have stupifying power levels (if fan hype is to be believed, or in Exiles case the way his powers work) and to either force the players to believe that the Ex-Dark Lord and his General would reign in their powers so that they didn't kill someone stretches the imagination. Also if you were to set it in the Sith Empire it'd be particularly hard to have a player be rewarded for ANY lightside action. Darkside, yeah you guys get an easy path, but to immerse yourself in the Sith and still come out smelling like roses is just unbelievable.

 

Before I begin, can you tell me what I have to type to break your writing up into segments? I'm getting tired of quoting the entire thing.

 

 

 

1. A game makes more money, and is more enjoyable to most people.

 

2. This could be true. During the events happening in K1 and K2 is when a Sith Lord united the True Sith out there, which is maybe why they are finally a threat. While the Mandalorian/Jedi Civil War is going on, the civil strifes between the Sith could be ending, and they could be United by a Sith Lord who has his eye set on the decimated Republic. Maybe for the past thousand years however they were having some power struggles. This makes sense.

 

3. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't know that the Republic existed, considering it was probably recorded in history their wars with them. And Kreia says they are rebuilding JUST OUTSIDE known space so that the Republic doesn't detect them. This tells me they know the Republic exists, which is why they are smart enough to stay outside its borders.

 

4. Technology is advancing. If you have not noticed, games are becoming more and more advanced. End War is using voice commands... you play the game by talking through your headset. It would take time, but not necessarily difficulty, for the developers to do all that I have mentioned. You have not seen an instance where Dark Power is so strong that it makes it hard to use your power, that is correct. That doesn't mean that these areas can't be like that though. And, what I was trying to say about it needs no explanation, is that it is a game, and people can easily understand that you have to start weak in order for there to be any POINT to playing... Its simple game mechanics. A couple things could be done about the voice. You can get a few voice actors voice out the dialogue for the exile/revan, and let players choose the one they like the best. Or, you can simply let players choose to view Exile/Revan dialogue in text, much like you view what you say.

 

5. They wouldn't really have to come up with two story lines. Both would be similar.

 

6. We have no proof that every jedi that could act as a knight was slaughtered. The Sith couldn't find the masters you unite in the game. Kreia had to bust in and ruin your day there. There are probably (not hundreds) but I'd estimate 5-15 Jedi Knights/Masters in hiding out there.

 

7. It is not impossible to market another KOTOR game while the MMO is going on. Everyone thinks the MMO is the end of all things. May I remind you, the only MMO right now that has more than 100,000 on a day is RuneScape and World of Warcraft. MMOs do not leech everything in existence. I have addressed what can be done about power levels. People can easily understand its a game, and suspend their disbelief about why they have to level up again in a K3 game, because the game wouldn't be fun if you didn't level up. Another thing I just thought of, you can start your character at say level 20, add 20 more levels, but make the starting enemies level 20 as well. Very realistic. You might say this gives you too many force powers or feats, but maybe only 5 levels of those 20 additional levels would give you a new feat/force power point. The rest would be pure stats. There are a lot of workarounds for the creative mind.

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I fail to see how we MUST have a game. It's more than likely that LA would hire a single writer to tell that smaller story rather than a team of writers, modelers, actors, programmers, designers, and marketers to get a game.

1. A game makes more money, and is more enjoyable to most people.

 

Not sure about that, but then games also cost a lot more to produce, as far more people are involved. And since Revan and exile now cannot defeat the true Sith in any definite way, it's not a game LA is likely to produce. Star Wars stories are epic stories of good vs. evil. Just name me one plot-driven Star Wars game that does not have a plot of good vs. evil on a galactic scale. There are games like the Episode I Racer, sure, but that's a game focused on the racing bit and not the plot. The plot driven games tend to place the player as the savior of his age, the hero who defeats all evil and kills the bad guys. Well, if the player chooses the light side ending anyway (and LS endings always seem to be the canonic ones).

 

Since Revan cannot return triumphant from the Sith Empire and cannot defeat it and kill its emperor, the plot would not meet the criteria of an ultimate victory over the bad guy that such a plot-driven game would demand. Hence it is not likely to be made. Consequently I agree with Calax that we're more likely to see this resolved in a novel or comic book. LA has let it slip that they plan to publish a novel in time for TOR's release. Will it reveal the entire plot of the MMORPG? Unlikely. But I expect Revan's and exile's fates may be dealt with in some manner. I find it more likely that Revan and exile will now only serve the purpose of historic background figures of TOR used to set the stage for the plot. It resolves their fates and gets the trouble of their various alignment and gender options out of the way. It will not matter if one or both were darksided, because they both left to stand against the true Sith anyway. The fates of the Star Forge and Malachor V are unlikely to be mentioned for the same reason. I could even imagine a plot where they are both dark sided with no other explanation than someone musing as to whether they were all along or turned to the dark side in order to gain power in the Sith Empire. Since they're both dead 300 years later, it doesn't matter anyway. I mean, did Revan go and oppose the true Sith because he was lightsided and wanted to defend the Republic or did he do it because he was darksided and wanted to preserve his own empire or expand it? Well, if his tactics and actions are the same either way, then what does it matter? The plot simply does not need to answer it, and so it can be left to each player to answer it for himself, just as it was the case in TSL.

 

3. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't know that the Republic existed, considering it was probably recorded in history their wars with them. And Kreia says they are rebuilding JUST OUTSIDE known space so that the Republic doesn't detect them. This tells me they know the Republic exists, which is why they are smart enough to stay outside its borders.

 

I agree. It may have been a long time, but the Sith Empire hates the Jedi and the Republic so much that Naga Sadow was itching for revenge 1900 years after his ancestors were exiled from the order and the Republic following the Hundred Years Darkness. Instead of his revenge, the Republic destroyed their empire. So it's not hard to imagine they'd still hold a grudge 1300 years after the fall of the empire.

 

Or as Kreia puts it: "These Sith... they seek the death of all Jedi. As have all the Sith since the Jedi Order was first split.Yes... the Jedi Civil War is not the first one of its kind - thousands of years ago, the Jedi had another civil war that split the Order. It was a... terrible thing.A faction among the Jedi abandoned the teachings of the order, following their own path.They waged war on their fellow Jedi, a war that raged across the galaxy.But these fallen Jedi were cast out, defeated, and they retreated to worlds in the Outer Rim. Over time, they took on the mantle of the Lords of the Sith.But in their hearts, they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and echoes in their teachings. Revan tasted it... as Malak did."

 

4. Technology is advancing. If you have not noticed, games are becoming more and more advanced. End War is using voice commands... you play the game by talking through your headset. It would take time, but not necessarily difficulty, for the developers to do all that I have mentioned. You have not seen an instance where Dark Power is so strong that it makes it hard to use your power, that is correct. That doesn't mean that these areas can't be like that though. And, what I was trying to say about it needs no explanation, is that it is a game, and people can easily understand that you have to start weak in order for there to be any POINT to playing... Its simple game mechanics. A couple things could be done about the voice. You can get a few voice actors voice out the dialogue for the exile/revan, and let players choose the one they like the best. Or, you can simply let players choose to view Exile/Revan dialogue in text, much like you view what you say.

 

Are these things possible to do? Sure. But that doesn't mean they're likely to be. A K3 where you can choose to play both as Revan and exile is unlikely in the extreme, since the devs would either have to make a custom story that is so generic that it fits both characters and so risks losing interest, because there is virtually be no difference between Revan or exile, or it would require a separate plot for each, meaning making basically two game plots in one game. Not likely. It's not cost-effective. Yes, lots of things can be done in games now, but note how games tend to focus on a particular feature and circle around it as something unique. It's a selling point if a game has something special in it. But you don't go pooling lots of advanced features in one game, because they're expensive to develop, though the game will still be sold at about the same price. Besides, Calax has a point when he says people will not like seeing Revan or exile scaled back to level one. What? The character suddenly lost his or her connection to the force and had to start over AGAIN?!? No, the exile was not amnesic like Revan, but she still lost all her experience. She didn't forget her past, but it hardly mattered - the result was still the same. It may be game mechanics, yes, and even game mechanics that I don't like because it's based on the D20 rules, but KotOR games are plot-driven games. A convenient excuse to make the player start over will be seen as just that - convenient. Or at worst as a cop out. I play KotOR games because I like the plots, not because I enjoy the mechanics. If the character is conveniently forced to start over again for the purpose of serving the mechanics rather than the plot, then it will not sell as well because people will be disappointed.

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I fail to see how we MUST have a game. It's more than likely that LA would hire a single writer to tell that smaller story rather than a team of writers, modelers, actors, programmers, designers, and marketers to get a game.

1. A game makes more money, and is more enjoyable to most people.

 

Not sure about that, but then games also cost a lot more to produce, as far more people are involved. And since Revan and exile now cannot defeat the true Sith in any definite way, it's not a game LA is likely to produce. Star Wars stories are epic stories of good vs. evil. Just name me one plot-driven Star Wars game that does not have a plot of good vs. evil on a galactic scale. There are games like the Episode I Racer, sure, but that's a game focused on the racing bit and not the plot. The plot driven games tend to place the player as the savior of his age, the hero who defeats all evil and kills the bad guys. Well, if the player chooses the light side ending anyway (and LS endings always seem to be the canonic ones).

 

Since Revan cannot return triumphant from the Sith Empire and cannot defeat it and kill its emperor, the plot would not meet the criteria of an ultimate victory over the bad guy that such a plot-driven game would demand. Hence it is not likely to be made. Consequently I agree with Calax that we're more likely to see this resolved in a novel or comic book. LA has let it slip that they plan to publish a novel in time for TOR's release. Will it reveal the entire plot of the MMORPG? Unlikely. But I expect Revan's and exile's fates may be dealt with in some manner. I find it more likely that Revan and exile will now only serve the purpose of historic background figures of TOR used to set the stage for the plot. It resolves their fates and gets the trouble of their various alignment and gender options out of the way. It will not matter if one or both were darksided, because they both left to stand against the true Sith anyway. The fates of the Star Forge and Malachor V are unlikely to be mentioned for the same reason. I could even imagine a plot where they are both dark sided with no other explanation than someone musing as to whether they were all along or turned to the dark side in order to gain power in the Sith Empire. Since they're both dead 300 years later, it doesn't matter anyway. I mean, did Revan go and oppose the true Sith because he was lightsided and wanted to defend the Republic or did he do it because he was darksided and wanted to preserve his own empire or expand it? Well, if his tactics and actions are the same either way, then what does it matter? The plot simply does not need to answer it, and so it can be left to each player to answer it for himself, just as it was the case in TSL.

 

3. I find it hard to believe they wouldn't know that the Republic existed, considering it was probably recorded in history their wars with them. And Kreia says they are rebuilding JUST OUTSIDE known space so that the Republic doesn't detect them. This tells me they know the Republic exists, which is why they are smart enough to stay outside its borders.

 

I agree. It may have been a long time, but the Sith Empire hates the Jedi and the Republic so much that Naga Sadow was itching for revenge 1900 years after his ancestors were exiled from the order and the Republic following the Hundred Years Darkness. Instead of his revenge, the Republic destroyed their empire. So it's not hard to imagine they'd still hold a grudge 1300 years after the fall of the empire.

 

Or as Kreia puts it: "These Sith... they seek the death of all Jedi. As have all the Sith since the Jedi Order was first split.Yes... the Jedi Civil War is not the first one of its kind - thousands of years ago, the Jedi had another civil war that split the Order. It was a... terrible thing.A faction among the Jedi abandoned the teachings of the order, following their own path.They waged war on their fellow Jedi, a war that raged across the galaxy.But these fallen Jedi were cast out, defeated, and they retreated to worlds in the Outer Rim. Over time, they took on the mantle of the Lords of the Sith.But in their hearts, they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and echoes in their teachings. Revan tasted it... as Malak did."

 

4. Technology is advancing. If you have not noticed, games are becoming more and more advanced. End War is using voice commands... you play the game by talking through your headset. It would take time, but not necessarily difficulty, for the developers to do all that I have mentioned. You have not seen an instance where Dark Power is so strong that it makes it hard to use your power, that is correct. That doesn't mean that these areas can't be like that though. And, what I was trying to say about it needs no explanation, is that it is a game, and people can easily understand that you have to start weak in order for there to be any POINT to playing... Its simple game mechanics. A couple things could be done about the voice. You can get a few voice actors voice out the dialogue for the exile/revan, and let players choose the one they like the best. Or, you can simply let players choose to view Exile/Revan dialogue in text, much like you view what you say.

 

Are these things possible to do? Sure. But that doesn't mean they're likely to be. A K3 where you can choose to play both as Revan and exile is unlikely in the extreme, since the devs would either have to make a custom story that is so generic that it fits both characters and so risks losing interest, because there is virtually be no difference between Revan or exile, or it would require a separate plot for each, meaning making basically two game plots in one game. Not likely. It's not cost-effective. Yes, lots of things can be done in games now, but note how games tend to focus on a particular feature and circle around it as something unique. It's a selling point if a game has something special in it. But you don't go pooling lots of advanced features in one game, because they're expensive to develop, though the game will still be sold at about the same price. Besides, Calax has a point when he says people will not like seeing Revan or exile scaled back to level one. What? The character suddenly lost his or her connection to the force and had to start over AGAIN?!? No, the exile was not amnesic like Revan, but she still lost all her experience. She didn't forget her past, but it hardly mattered - the result was still the same. It may be game mechanics, yes, and even game mechanics that I don't like because it's based on the D20 rules, but KotOR games are plot-driven games. A convenient excuse to make the player start over will be seen as just that - convenient. Or at worst as a cop out. I play KotOR games because I like the plots, not because I enjoy the mechanics. If the character is conveniently forced to start over again for the purpose of serving the mechanics rather than the plot, then it will not sell as well because people will be disappointed.

 

1. Games are hot on the market now. Sure your older generations may not enjoy them as much (trying not to stereotype) but more and more people are being drawn to gaming entertainment.

 

2. Virtually no difference between Revan and Exile? Revan is mysterious still, his intentions are unknown, and he is very intelligent. The Exile is the opposite. He served as a General. Did his duty, but refused to fall to the Dark Side. I think it'd be easy to make plot dialogue for each character... I just wish they'd give me a job and I'd do it :D. As for starting over with force powers etc... There are a lot of workarounds. I'm just saying I believe anyone wouldn't mind having to start over. It wouldn't be seen as (PLOT WISE) your character completely losing their power. It would just be seen as the need to have to achieve something. (How boring would a KOTOR game be if there was no point to leveling up and creating character builds). Also... The possible third playable character is indeed possible. Can't play as either Revan or Exile, third character ( you play as and name and such ) meets Revan/Exile late in the game (like level 18). Would fan boys cry, "NOOOO, Revan and Exile are the STRONGEST, this is IMPOSSSHIIBLEE!!!!?" I don't think so. Why? They have KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 in which each of those characters are the main honchos. I have personally never witnessed such extreme fanboyism over Revan or the Exile. Until I do, I refuse to believe K3 would fail just because your main character does better than Revan/Exile (assuming Revan/Exile are NPCs that you can have in your party).

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Maybe KotOR3 doesn't have to be about Reven or the Exile, maybe it can be from another Sith or Jedi's point-of-view. From force users that we've left behind to re-build the republic.

 

In the game your charater would know that Reven left and would waiting for his/her return. You'd be searching known space trying to find out what happened to the exile. You could meet up with some old characters from KotOR 1 and 2.

 

The game doesn't have to be about going out and finding the True Sith, or about finding and helping Reven. Maybe the game could be about finding the exile and starting something else entirely different from what Reven was doing to help the republic. Maybe you'd help the republic in a complete different way.

Edited by Darth Allanon

Always knowing the answer doesn't make you smart, but being able to discover the answer does.

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1. Games are hot on the market now. Sure your older generations may not enjoy them as much (trying not to stereotype) but more and more people are being drawn to gaming entertainment.

 

2. Virtually no difference between Revan and Exile? Revan is mysterious still, his intentions are unknown, and he is very intelligent. The Exile is the opposite. He served as a General. Did his duty, but refused to fall to the Dark Side. I think it'd be easy to make plot dialogue for each character... I just wish they'd give me a job and I'd do it :D. As for starting over with force powers etc... There are a lot of workarounds. I'm just saying I believe anyone wouldn't mind having to start over. It wouldn't be seen as (PLOT WISE) your character completely losing their power. It would just be seen as the need to have to achieve something. (How boring would a KOTOR game be if there was no point to leveling up and creating character builds). Also... The possible third playable character is indeed possible. Can't play as either Revan or Exile, third character ( you play as and name and such ) meets Revan/Exile late in the game (like level 18). Would fan boys cry, "NOOOO, Revan and Exile are the STRONGEST, this is IMPOSSSHIIBLEE!!!!?" I don't think so. Why? They have KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 in which each of those characters are the main honchos. I have personally never witnessed such extreme fanboyism over Revan or the Exile. Until I do, I refuse to believe K3 would fail just because your main character does better than Revan/Exile (assuming Revan/Exile are NPCs that you can have in your party).

 

1. Actually, the average age of gamers is now about 30 years of age, which means you can market games to adults. Hence games like GTA and Manhunt. However, it also means that game plots cannot be as convenient anymore, because adult gamers won't abide the sort of plots you might be able to sell to teenagers.

 

2. You misunderstand. My point is that the whoever would write the game would not write two plots - one for Revan and one for the exile - in one game, and so if both characters had to be an option, it would be a plot that fits both, and which would make it less interesting. It's not a question of who the characters are, but of what sort of the plot the game writers would come up with as a result. As for starting over, you seem to be only one here voicing support for that idea, and that is on a board of fans heavily dedicated to KotOR, since we would otherwise probably not read and post here. I'm not going to argue against a third, new character who meets Revan and exile late in the game, however, since that is a suggestion I've made myself in the past. Because of the MMO, I don't believe there is any possibility of that now, though. Sadly.

 

Note: You haven't witnessed extreme fanboyism over Revan or exile?!? Oh, lucky, lucky you... :shifty:

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1. Games are hot on the market now. Sure your older generations may not enjoy them as much (trying not to stereotype) but more and more people are being drawn to gaming entertainment.

 

2. Virtually no difference between Revan and Exile? Revan is mysterious still, his intentions are unknown, and he is very intelligent. The Exile is the opposite. He served as a General. Did his duty, but refused to fall to the Dark Side. I think it'd be easy to make plot dialogue for each character... I just wish they'd give me a job and I'd do it :D. As for starting over with force powers etc... There are a lot of workarounds. I'm just saying I believe anyone wouldn't mind having to start over. It wouldn't be seen as (PLOT WISE) your character completely losing their power. It would just be seen as the need to have to achieve something. (How boring would a KOTOR game be if there was no point to leveling up and creating character builds). Also... The possible third playable character is indeed possible. Can't play as either Revan or Exile, third character ( you play as and name and such ) meets Revan/Exile late in the game (like level 18). Would fan boys cry, "NOOOO, Revan and Exile are the STRONGEST, this is IMPOSSSHIIBLEE!!!!?" I don't think so. Why? They have KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 in which each of those characters are the main honchos. I have personally never witnessed such extreme fanboyism over Revan or the Exile. Until I do, I refuse to believe K3 would fail just because your main character does better than Revan/Exile (assuming Revan/Exile are NPCs that you can have in your party).

 

1. Actually, the average age of gamers is now about 30 years of age, which means you can market games to adults. Hence games like GTA and Manhunt. However, it also means that game plots cannot be as convenient anymore, because adult gamers won't abide the sort of plots you might be able to sell to teenagers.

 

2. You misunderstand. My point is that the whoever would write the game would not write two plots - one for Revan and one for the exile - in one game, and so if both characters had to be an option, it would be a plot that fits both, and which would make it less interesting. It's not a question of who the characters are, but of what sort of the plot the game writers would come up with as a result. As for starting over, you seem to be only one here voicing support for that idea, and that is on a board of fans heavily dedicated to KotOR, since we would otherwise probably not read and post here. I'm not going to argue against a third, new character who meets Revan and exile late in the game, however, since that is a suggestion I've made myself in the past. Because of the MMO, I don't believe there is any possibility of that now, though. Sadly.

 

Note: You haven't witnessed extreme fanboyism over Revan or exile?!? Oh, lucky, lucky you... :shifty:

 

1. I meant OLDER generations... like... 50-70s... :D

 

2. I fail to understand why a plot that fits both would be less interesting, considering if the plot didn't fit both then it would make no sense at all. And there are a few games out there that have plots for multiple characters. (I forgot the name of my favorite one where you can decide who to play as, it was like based in ancient Japan and there were all sorts of things you could do). I may be the only person here voicing my opinion about the starting over thing, but I am one of like probably 5 people in general voicing the opinion, so these forums are not an accurate depiction. Its either

 

a. Make a creative workaround to the starting over thing

b. Accept that it simple game mechanics to start a character at level 1... Canonically Revan/Exile is NOT losing power, but for the sake of giving players a sense of achievement you must have a level system in which characters can customize their characters.

c. Don't make K3 because of this close-minded argument regarding the Exile/Revan and how the plot would work.

 

Truth is, if the plot isn't written yet, then it can be written anyway it needs to be written. Just because a game will require your character to start at level 1 does not mean that it nullifies the achievements you earned in K1 - K2. K3 would of course be a different game. Also, if the plot is not yet written, then all it requires is a lot of time, and a decent plot could be written for K3.

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Maybe KotOR3 doesn't have to be about Reven or the Exile, maybe it can be from another Sith or Jedi's point-of-view. From force users that we've left behind to re-build the republic.

 

In the game your charater would know that Reven left and would waiting for his/her return. You'd be searching known space trying to find out what happened to the exile. You could meet up with some old characters from KotOR 1 and 2.

 

The game doesn't have to be about going out and finding the True Sith, or about finding and helping Reven. Maybe the game could be about finding the exile and starting something else entirely different from what Reven was doing to help the republic. Maybe you'd help the republic in a complete different way.

 

This idea could make an interesting game, but I'm pretty sure most KOTOR fans are dying to know what Revan and the Exile are doing after K2 in the unknown regions.

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This idea could make an interesting game, but I'm pretty sure most KOTOR fans are dying to know what Revan and the Exile are doing after K2 in the unknown regions.

 

Well the exile could of went to the unknown regions or he could stayed back in the known regions. So don't assume the exile is off with Reven just yet.

 

But I'm more interested in what Reven did during KotOR2 rather than what he might do after KotOR2. There was plenty of time during the game for Reven to of accomplished something. Maybe KotOR3 could be about what Reven was up to during KotOR2...instead of afterwards.

Always knowing the answer doesn't make you smart, but being able to discover the answer does.

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This idea could make an interesting game, but I'm pretty sure most KOTOR fans are dying to know what Revan and the Exile are doing after K2 in the unknown regions.

 

Well the exile could of went to the unknown regions or he could stayed back in the known regions. So don't assume the exile is off with Reven just yet.

 

But I'm more interested in what Reven did during KotOR2 rather than what he might do after KotOR2. There was plenty of time during the game for Reven to of accomplished something. Maybe KotOR3 could be about what Reven was up to during KotOR2...instead of afterwards.

 

Good idea.

 

This nullifies the whole argument about having Revan/Exile in the same game. Instead, K3 would go back to KOTOR 2 time period and would let you play as Revan again. You would be able to customize him how you like him, voicing Revan would not be a problem. Writing separate plots would not be a problem.

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This idea could make an interesting game, but I'm pretty sure most KOTOR fans are dying to know what Revan and the Exile are doing after K2 in the unknown regions.

 

Well the exile could of went to the unknown regions or he could stayed back in the known regions. So don't assume the exile is off with Reven just yet.

 

Well, the game more ends up more than implying that exile will indeed follow Revan into the unknown regions.

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. It would have helped had he made her understand. But she was always strong-willed, that one, and did not understand war as Revan did."

 

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark. Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. It would have helped had he made her understand. But she was always strong-willed, that one, and did not understand war as Revan did. Because I did not know where he had gone. If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know.But he will need warriors, Sith and Jedi, any who can be sent after him into the depths of space, any who know the way.Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things."

 

This is the conclusion of TSL. It's not so easy to just ignore, because then what was the point of Kreia revealing all that.

 

But I'm more interested in what Reven did during KotOR2 rather than what he might do after KotOR2. There was plenty of time during the game for Reven to of accomplished something. Maybe KotOR3 could be about what Reven was up to during KotOR2...instead of afterwards.

 

Well, by the time TSL begins, Revan has been gone for four years already. What has been doing during that time? I always expected we'd see a new game set a few years after TSL, where the true Sith threaten the Republic and Revan and the exile turn out to have worked tirelessly for years to prevent the fall of the Republic. Alas, I fear that will never happen now, save in a comic book or a novel, or even as part of throwaway comments in TOR.

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Well, the game more ends up more than implying that exile will indeed follow Revan into the unknown regions.

 

I disagree, you are given a choice to stay at the academy and wait for more force sensatives to find you, or you could follow Reven's path into the unknown regions.

So is the Exile expected to go to the unknown regions? Kreia expected him/her to, but Kreia could not foresee everything. So that plot is still up in the air.

They game makers left the plot undecided and for the gamer to choose. That's why in KotOR3, the Exile isn't going to be the main character like in KotOR2.

So that leaves either Reven or some new Jedi or Sith charater.

Edited by Darth Allanon

Always knowing the answer doesn't make you smart, but being able to discover the answer does.

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1. I meant OLDER generations... like... 50-70s... :D

 

2. I fail to understand why a plot that fits both would be less interesting, considering if the plot didn't fit both then it would make no sense at all. And there are a few games out there that have plots for multiple characters. (I forgot the name of my favorite one where you can decide who to play as, it was like based in ancient Japan and there were all sorts of things you could do). I may be the only person here voicing my opinion about the starting over thing, but I am one of like probably 5 people in general voicing the opinion, so these forums are not an accurate depiction. Its either

 

a. Make a creative workaround to the starting over thing

b. Accept that it simple game mechanics to start a character at level 1... Canonically Revan/Exile is NOT losing power, but for the sake of giving players a sense of achievement you must have a level system in which characters can customize their characters.

c. Don't make K3 because of this close-minded argument regarding the Exile/Revan and how the plot would work.

 

Truth is, if the plot isn't written yet, then it can be written anyway it needs to be written. Just because a game will require your character to start at level 1 does not mean that it nullifies the achievements you earned in K1 - K2. K3 would of course be a different game. Also, if the plot is not yet written, then all it requires is a lot of time, and a decent plot could be written for K3.

the way to break a quote post is by putting /quote (the number of times that you have in a quote tree) in brakets (these things:[ ]) and when you're done put in quote again in brackets the number of times you need to have for your quote tree.

 

1) That generation? yeah they aren't that interested in games.

2) The reason a plot that fits both is less interesting is because like Jediphile said the devs would have the characters doing the exact same things in the exact same way. Thus the two characters personalities would have to be the same (unless they locked the choise and made Revan be DS and Exile be LS or something similar). Or the developers would have to spend stupid amounts of money on writing producing and programming in a different way to get through the obstacles that will invariably be thrown in your path. As to the the "creative workaround" that the developers would come up with? sure they could probably do something like Revan and Exile were found unconscious and had power restraint collars tossed on them but then fans would ask the simple question of where the hell these collars came from and how they work. Similar ideas would have to be thought of and made so air tight that superfans can't poke holes in them and thus the writers and developers would probably say "too much work for a very small thing". As to your letter B) the problem with a simple accept it, is that Gamers I've found ALWAYS want a reason why you have thus and such. For some things they are willing to wait for a sequel but given Kotors new life as an MMO you probably won't see anything like it. (the best example of this is Deus Ex: Invisible War, where when entering certain areas you had to have your guns locked out so you couldn't use them, the reason was flimsy as heck but it worked well enough that gamers were willing to suspend disbelief.)

Your final paragraph reminds me of the saying about monkies and typewriters, sure with enough time a teenager could come up with a literary breakthrough in storytelling that everyone quickly adopts but by the time he did it he'd probably be on his deathbead. Also you point out that this would need time. Time is a thing that if you want K3 to see the light of day, it doesn't really have. TOR will probably be released either late 09 or early 10 which means that K3 would have to be released before or be sunk as a threat to the TOR playerbase.

 

Thus we're left with the fact that you can't depower Revan or Exile without looking foolish, to show them in game would be a chore and a half (well you might be able to work around with Revan given he likes to wear a mask and bulky robes, but Exile? you're screwed.) And like Jediphile said, if you haven't seen a rabid revan fan you're lucky. Just look at any of the MANY MANY "who's the most powerful sith lord" threads and you'll find a heap of fanbois flaming away that Revan (read: they) is the mostest powerfulest Jedi in the known history of Star Wars!

 

Just a few:

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=4386 Gets good at the second page. We also made a record in that it became a flame war in under a page

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=41423 Oh OPG, how great memories of you we have.

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=41950 oohhh found more than just OPG

 

and finially

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=41560

Edited by Calax

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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Well, the game more ends up more than implying that exile will indeed follow Revan into the unknown regions.

 

I disagree, you are given a choice to stay at the academy and wait for more force sensatives to find you, or you could follow Reven's path into the unknown regions.

 

Only in the DS ending, which is not canon. Clearly the exile cannot stay at the academy on Malachor in the LS ending, because there is no Malachor.

 

And even in the DS ending, the choice is to go where Revan did now, or stay on Malachor and show others the way, until the exile does decide to go.

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My statements will be in BOLD, just in case I fail hard at this quote break-up thing.

 

1) That generation? yeah they aren't that interested in games.

Hehe

2) The reason a plot that fits both is less interesting is because like Jediphile said the devs would have the characters doing the exact same things in the exact same way. Thus the two characters personalities would have to be the same (unless they locked the choise and made Revan be DS and Exile be LS or something similar). Or the developers would have to spend stupid amounts of money on writing producing and programming in a different way to get through the obstacles that will invariably be thrown in your path. As to the the "creative workaround" that the developers would come up with? sure they could probably do something like Revan and Exile were found unconscious and had power restraint collars tossed on them but then fans would ask the simple question of where the hell these collars came from and how they work. Similar ideas would have to be thought of and made so air tight that superfans can't poke holes in them and thus the writers and developers would probably say "too much work for a very small thing". As to your letter B) the problem with a simple accept it, is that Gamers I've found ALWAYS want a reason why you have thus and such. For some things they are willing to wait for a sequel but given Kotors new life as an MMO you probably won't see anything like it. (the best example of this is Deus Ex: Invisible War, where when entering certain areas you had to have your guns locked out so you couldn't use them, the reason was flimsy as heck but it worked well enough that gamers were willing to suspend disbelief.)

The characters wouldn't have to do the EXACT same things... but they would have to be on the same mission (with the exception of LS/DS ending difference). What I mean by plot fits both is that it wouldn't happen like this: In the Revan campaign, (LS) you destroy the True Sith Empire. In the Exile Campaign (LS) Revan dies, and exile barely fractures True Sith Empire. That kind of plot difference would be stupid. It would have to make sense and the plots would have to be similar.

Your final paragraph reminds me of the saying about monkies and typewriters, sure with enough time a teenager could come up with a literary breakthrough in storytelling that everyone quickly adopts but by the time he did it he'd probably be on his deathbead. Also you point out that this would need time. Time is a thing that if you want K3 to see the light of day, it doesn't really have. TOR will probably be released either late 09 or early 10 which means that K3 would have to be released before or be sunk as a threat to the TOR playerbase.

This is true, but the plot has already been nudged in the right direction from K1 - K2. If K3 were to be produced, Revan would be in the unknown regions doing SOMETHING to/with the Sith Empire. This is something they can build on that shouldn't take too much time. Besides, I'd rather a company take 20 years to finish a masterpiece like the KOTOR series, than rush another game like K2 and miss a lot of key features. I disagree with your marketing statement. Yes, K3 cannot be released DURING the MMO's prime time. But it also can't be released (or announced) before the MMO, as enough hype is already built around the MMO. It must be done AFTER the release of the MMO, some time after, I'd have to say 3-6 months after. This way MMO hype has died down. (Unless its a smash success with 11 million players like WoW, but this is doubtful).

 

Thus we're left with the fact that you can't depower Revan or Exile without looking foolish, to show them in game would be a chore and a half (well you might be able to work around with Revan given he likes to wear a mask and bulky robes, but Exile? you're screwed.) And like Jediphile said, if you haven't seen a rabid revan fan you're lucky. Just look at any of the MANY MANY "who's the most powerful sith lord" threads and you'll find a heap of fanbois flaming away that Revan (read: they) is the mostest powerfulest Jedi in the known history of Star Wars!

 

It would be a chore. And Revan/Exile would be easy, just allow players to customize them from pre-existing K1-K2 faces. (Maybe the graphics will be better but the faces will still be similar). AND LOLOLOLOLOLOL at those threads... LOL. EDIT: Oh, and I failed hard at the quote thing.

 

 

Just a few:

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=4386 Gets good at the second page. We also made a record in that it became a flame war in under a page

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=41423 Oh OPG, how great memories of you we have.

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=41950 oohhh found more than just OPG

 

and finially

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?showtopic=41560

Edited by Rosbjerg
Helping with quotes
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My statements will be in BOLD, just in case I fail hard at this quote break-up thing.

 

The characters wouldn't have to do the EXACT same things... but they would have to be on the same mission (with the exception of LS/DS ending difference). What I mean by plot fits both is that it wouldn't happen like this: In the Revan campaign, (LS) you destroy the True Sith Empire. In the Exile Campaign (LS) Revan dies, and exile barely fractures True Sith Empire. That kind of plot difference would be stupid. It would have to make sense and the plots would have to be similar.

Except that to save alot of time and work the devs would make the PC go through the exact same thing regardless of who they were, because they don't want to have to write and program in two entirely separate stories. Sure they may do something like have 2 quests have slightly different outcomes but that'd only really be cosmetic changes while the main story plowed along on it's one track. This is the reason why newer games that say "we have choice yes we do!" usually have the choices be outside the realm of plot choices, or have one or two very pivotal choices about how the game ends and thats it.

This is true, but the plot has already been nudged in the right direction from K1 - K2. If K3 were to be produced, Revan would be in the unknown regions doing SOMETHING to/with the Sith Empire. This is something they can build on that shouldn't take too much time. Besides, I'd rather a company take 20 years to finish a masterpiece like the KOTOR series, than rush another game like K2 and miss a lot of key features. I disagree with your marketing statement. Yes, K3 cannot be released DURING the MMO's prime time. But it also can't be released (or announced) before the MMO, as enough hype is already built around the MMO. It must be done AFTER the release of the MMO, some time after, I'd have to say 3-6 months after. This way MMO hype has died down. (Unless its a smash success with 11 million players like WoW, but this is doubtful).

Except that with the MMO running the marketing department at lucasarts would probably sink the project out of the game because it could have a negative impact on the MMO. I mean look at WoW, blizzard isn't going to make a Warcraft 4 while it's running because they've got themselves a cash cow that can easily bankroll anything blizzard would want. Also an MMO only needs 1 or 2 hundred thousand players from anywhere to be successful at raking in the cash. City of Heroes only has 107k or so players and it's survived longer than most single player games.

It would be a chore. And Revan/Exile would be easy, just allow players to customize them from pre-existing K1-K2 faces. (Maybe the graphics will be better but the faces will still be similar). AND LOLOLOLOLOLOL at those threads... LOL. EDIT: Oh, and I failed hard at the quote thing.

 

to open (start) quotes you just put quote in brackets, to close them you put /quote in brackets.

 

Except that not only would you have to give Revan and Exile faces you'd also have to give them more of a voice than just "Yeah?" and "EEEEYAH!" Also you'd need to give them a more definitive personality because in the games that they headlined their personalities were blank until a player made choices. Basically Revan and Exiles personalities are defined by player actions in their respective games, and thus when whoever goes back to write for them they'd either have to make the most generic personality known to man or they'd have to make some rabid fanboi hate them because it wasn't "their" Revan and Exile.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

Kevin Butler will awesome your face off.

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