Mask of the Betrayer

[Tale]

I've played through that game twice and have never played that level the way you're supposed to. Even with fan patches that little nook behind a tree causes the werewolf to forget you exist.

[taks]

My take on the NWN franchise is that there is an understanding that players will only occasionally issue orders to each individual party member.

the difficult in this w.r.t. NWN2 is that often, if you click on one character to issue an order, the others may suddenly drop what they're doing and run to the selected character. they instinctively obey the last broad command, which defaults to "Follow Me." even with the latest beta patch, i'm still seeing this behavior and it is annoying. the solution is puppet mode, but then the NPCs seem unwilling to do _anything_, even respond to attacks on themselves. puppet mode was definitely a requirement in duskwood, else sand would have spent the lot of his spells by the time we reached the cave at the top of the hill (did that last night).

 

taks

[Spider]

There hasn't been a challenging CRPG since Fallout 2.

 

Gothic 3, (in parts, depending on how you levelled up) Oblivion, Two Worlds.

 

I also found Icewind Dale to be somewhat challenging and definitely BG2 the first time I played it, although that's probably more due to my lack of understanding the rules system than anything else ("Breach seems like a crappy spell, let's ignore that one").

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

This seems like an ideal time to bring up the werewolf.

 

YEAH! Sand what about the werewolf...

[mkreku]

There hasn't been a challenging CRPG since Fallout 2.

 

Gothic 3, (in parts, depending on how you levelled up) Oblivion, Two Worlds.

 

I also found Icewind Dale to be somewhat challenging and definitely BG2 the first time I played it, although that's probably more due to my lack of understanding the rules system than anything else ("Breach seems like a crappy spell, let's ignore that one").

It's a pointless discussion because as soon as you bring up a difficult RPG, he'll just go "But that's not a REAL RPG"..

 

But it's true though. The Gothic games can be horribly difficult and it's one of the reasons why I love them so.

[Gfted1]

I definately didnt find BG2 easy, even with a strong knowledge of 2E. There were many many fights that wiped the floor with my party. The first time encountering Firkraag, the bottom level of WK just before entering Demogorgons room, the room containing the Staff of the Magi, etc...

[Spider]

My point about BG2 is that I don't really know if I think it's hard or not. I know I did the first times I played it, but these days I can't play it without tactics installed because it's just so crazy easy.

 

It's a pointless discussion because as soon as you bring up a difficult RPG, he'll just go "But that's not a REAL RPG"..

 

But it's true though. The Gothic games can be horribly difficult and it's one of the reasons why I love them so.

 

Gothic 3 was extremely difficult. It kinda erred on the side of being too difficult though, at least in the beginning where EVERYTHING would slaughter you. But it made combat much more relevant compared to NWN2. If only the performance wouldn't have been so horrible on my (aging) machine, I would have finished it and loved it. Now I uninstalled it when NWN2 came along and haven't looked back on it.

[Pop]

BG2 was only really easy for me when I had played it enough that I knew what was coming around every corner, and thus knew when to Barry Bonds my party. The first time around I got clobbered by everything from the few gauths hanging out past the broken bridge under the Temple sewers to every mind flayer I encountered (the city of them seemed goddamn impossible) I still have trouble with the mind flayers, what with the lack of grappling (when are they going to institute that in a game) and instead just making 2 hits an instant kill.

 

Fallout 2 was only really difficult if you didn't know about the drug dealers in the Den that you could effortlessly knock over and equip your party with.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Pop

[Azarkon]

There's a difference between difficult combat and enjoyable combat, IMO. Combat can be difficult and yet be boring - I tend to call them frustrating. Combat can also be easy and yet surprisingly enjoyable - BG 2 falls into this category, as does Bioshock. It might be best to have both, but if I had to choose, I'd choose easy, enjoyable combat over difficult, frustrating combat.

[Sand]

This seems like an ideal time to bring up the werewolf.

 

QUIET YOU!

[Sand]

It's a pointless discussion because as soon as you bring up a difficult RPG, he'll just go "But that's not a REAL RPG"..

 

But it's true though. The Gothic games can be horribly difficult and it's one of the reasons why I love them so.

 

The problems I had with Gothic was 1) I couldn't create my character and 2) the controls of the game were quite wonky. If I am going to play a CRPG one of the main things I like to do is make my own character. If I can't make my own character then the story had better be superior to anything currently on the market for it to make up for that. Also if a game has bad controls, which in my opinion Gothic had, I just can't get intot he game. I won't go into the argument that Gothic isn't a CRPG because that would be silly. It is as much as a CRPG as Bloodlines or Torment, its just not one that I like.

 

Baseline Oblivion wasn't all that difficult. It was just as difficult as 1st level as it is at 30th level. That is why I use a lot of mods on it.

[taks]

There were many many fights that wiped the floor with my party. The first time encountering Firkraag, the bottom level of WK just before entering Demogorgons room, the room containing the Staff of the Magi, etc...

yeah, but those examples were supposed to be hard fights, all of which had non-fight options, too. well, where the staff of the magi was located wasn't an optional fight if you managed to get in there (well, i never chose the "sorry, but i entered the wrong room" option, so i don't know if it is escapable or not).

 

personally, i found BG1 harder but mostly because that was my first game of the sort since the gold box games a decade earlier. i never found those games difficult, btw.

 

IMO, most of the difficulty with NWN2, assuming hardcore rules, is the somewhat clunky AI and controls. originally, you couldn't click on a character and take control, which i found myself attempting all the time (you can now) because of so much BG play (partially my fault for not getting used to the new method). you can now, of course, with the latest patch, but i find i keep accidentally switching from one player to the next attempting to direct a certain character to some location... grrr. the fact that the currently selected "target" (top center icon) gets spell effects also creates a few headaches. i suppose, really, what makes it difficult for me is that i got so used to simply scripted AI in the IE games, in which players never really follow any one character, that i'm having a hard time adjusting.

 

taks

[Tigranes]

Let's skip the "WHAT IS RPG" stuff, huh? Huh? Come on guys, THE HORSE IS DEAD.

 

 

BG2 was amazingly difficult the first time I played it, but I was 13 or something and that was my first exposure to any type of D&D, ever. Once I read up a bit on it, and understood the rules a bit more, it hit the right balance - it was fun and challenging. After a while of course, the issue was that you know every encounter before you come up to it, and BG2 unlike later IE games often does give you the time to buff till the shiny lights blind your grandma and lay a thousand traps. (The Tree of Life Irenicus is killable in 0.5 seconds using traps alone.) Which is where Tactics and so forth came in. But I don't think BG2 itself can be blamed for that. It needed some AI improvements and it was a little too much on the easy side, but the balance was fantastic.

 

NWN2 isn't difficult at all. I don't remember a single OC battle, on D&D Hardcore difficulty, that you get wiped out easily - esp. with full party. There are some battles where you do need to think about what you're doing, but the final boss was more of an endurance battle than a challenge and I think I only ever had trouble with the dragon (before I worked it out) and the last 3 skull-dudes.

[mkreku]

Gothic 3 was extremely difficult. It kinda erred on the side of being too difficult though, at least in the beginning where EVERYTHING would slaughter you. But it made combat much more relevant compared to NWN2.

Yeah, combat is tough in Gothic 3. Even at level 80+ (which I am now) you still have to watch out for a pack of wolves.. just as I think it should be.

 

I want to be slaughtered by anything and everything in the beginning of a game! I want to learn how to survive, what I can beat and slowly progress from bunnies to giant birds to wolves. The problem with NWN2's combat is that it's totally effortless (I just click attack and sit back and watch what happens) and practically non-challenging. I have yet to have my first full party wipe (I've just left Neverwinter City..). I think it's much more rewarding to be able to walk into a pack of wolves in my 150,000 gold paladin armour and be able to survive (Gothic 3) than it is to take on slightly bigger city guards than last time and still not have to worry about a thing (NWN2).

 

But it's not only the combat that's difficult in Gothic 3. Some of the quests feel almost impossible too! The one where you're supposed to recruit people for the Okara rebel camp.. Or the one in Mora Sul where they want you to find and kill all the water mages (to gain entrance to Ishtar).. Or just trying to find the twelve fire chalices (no, it's not a collect quest as in a MMORPG!). There are no quest arrows. There are no maps to guide you. Nothing you're supposed to find shines with a bright light (I'm looking at you, Bioshock ). You. Are. On. Your. Own. The way you have to do it is by talking to people. You have to explore. You have to follow vague clues and experiment. That's how you make quests interesting.

[taks]

are you playing hardcore rules? if not, the game becomes much more difficult when you can be damaged by your own spells.

 

taks

[Cantousent]

Yeah, and having the NPCs do more damage to the party than the enemy makes the game much harder.

[mkreku]

I'm not sure. I don't think so, unless the game is on hardcore by default. I am playing a rogue character trying to become an assassin though, so spells are not my top priority..

 

And playing a rogue in a D&D game is ****ing boring! Sneak mechanics suck. Backstabbing SUCKS. In combat you fight way worse than any other class (it seems) and you can't use heavy armour. So what's the point?? I'm hoping the assassin class brings with it some FUN to the game. Not that I ever see how I'll be getting it. According to the stats screen I have everything needed to be able to become an assassin, yet when I level up I never have the option of choosing it. No idea why.

[Cantousent]

You tried any of the new classes Cant?

 

I've created characters from all the classes. However, I did the vast majority of my builds in a very speicific prestige mage class.

 

I'd also suggest, if you think it's too easy, that you leave the NPCs at home and solo the game on hardcore. The game will be considerably harder. I think it would be a shame to miss all the NPC interaction, but if difficulty is your deal breaker, then that's the way to go.

 

EDIT: mkreku, do you have a screenshot of your character levelup screen? I'm curious as to why you can't take Assassin.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Cantousent

[mkreku]

No, I am at work, but I can take one when I get back home. In like 8 hours..

[Aegeri]

No, I am at work, but I can take one when I get back home. In like 8 hours..

Are you of evil alignment? Because you can't take it if you're non-evil.

 

Other than that maybe the game is just being a jerk.

 

Also, I find a rogue with dual blades of acid or similar sillyness (dual wielding basically) is horribly effective on anything that isn't undead. They become whirling stealthy death machines of doom after a certain point. Just need to build them the right weaponry.

 

One thing I've thought of, does MotB still do NWN2s stupid thing where if you're anything other than a combat class, you end up face to face with your that you are talking to? For example, I do not want my mage right next to the fighter I am talking to (who is going to attack me regardless of what I do anyway). It's frustrating and stupid. If it still does this sillyness, I'll have to restrict myself to fighters/clerics and other classes that can stand toe to toe for the sake of my blood pressure.

[Cantousent]

I've made copious complaints about that very issue. It still exists. I hate it. As I see it, I don't have to be standing right next to an enemy, who is clearly set to attack me any minute, to exchange words with him. Why not have the PC speak but have the fighters and other meat shields between him and the bad guys? You won't be stuck playing a fighter type, however. First of all, mages have spells to help deal with these issues. For example, my mage builds invariably invested max points in tumble, which does wonders. Second of all, while there are cases where bringing the PC to the front causes some irritation, mostly it's a non-issue.

 

What really burns me isn't that it makes it more difficult so much as it really tears me out of the game. Every single time it happens, I think to myself, "Why the hell would my super-genius level mage not stand behind the muscle to talk to these people?" Hell, why approach them at all? I'd says, "Stand where you are if you want to talk. Any closer, and it's not a discussion. It's a fight."

 

This should probably have been in my original write-up, it irritated me so much, but it's kind of specific. On the other hand, it's not specific to MotB. Most of these dumbass games seem to follow that trend. Really breaks immersion for me.

[taks]

I'm not sure. I don't think so, unless the game is on hardcore by default. I am playing a rogue character trying to become an assassin though, so spells are not my top priority..

nope. you should up it to hardcore... there are other things it effects, too. the game is much too easy on the default. there are maybe 2 or 3 fights that are hard otherwise, that i can recall.

 

taks

[Tigranes]

Game is on 'normal' by default. Hardcore solves a lot of difficulty problems without making it unreasonable. I mean, spells SHOULD damage your own party. The game is still too easy, but I suppose soloing an assassin changes that.

 

Sneaking was much more fun in IE games for me, because it was obvious when you were found and when you weren't, and the controls weren't as clunky, and backstab could do some really high damage (chunk!), and you had traps for some of them. The sneak/backstab mechanics on NWN2 are one of the few things I think are actually horrible, and I don't think it would have changed in motb.

[Starwars]

I don't think Rogue has been all that fun in any D&D games I've played, which is to bad since I love the class itself. Though I do think it was more fun in the IE games.

 

If you have NWN1, you might wanna check out a few of the mods that are made especially for rogues. Some of them are pretty good.

[Avakki]

Official campaign was just running trough even on hardest difficulty. Dragon part was the only place where I had to use tactics.

 

Artificial intelligence can never be perfect when it comes to providing difficulty. The more you play it, the better you start to know it and can anticipate it's next moves. Raising difficulty (monster stats, not ai tactics) is an option, but results in relying more and more on chance to instakill.

 

Adding more random factors, like environment effects and surroundings provide more interest to me at least.

 

From what I've read of Sawyer's replies, the difficulty on Motb looks good. I just hope that the combat pace is slower aswell, so there's at least chances for strategic thinking.