"Why I Hate Fantasy RPGs"

[SteveThaiBinh]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Drizzt at all. He's a nice guy.

He helps you against the nasty vampires who kidnapped your beloved

in BG2. OK, he does have a rather unfortunate accent, one that could quite easily be imagined to say 'Tally-ho!', but that's no reason to kill him. And Deekin was great fun, too, especially when singing the song from Fame. I wish they'd got a voice actor for the gnome song in NWN2.

[Calax]

drzzt is the reason that all dark elves are the rare dark elves with violet eyes who rebel against their sisters and are able to cut a bloody swath through 10000 orks and have pet extraplanar panthers.

 

Thus anyone with swords wants to be Drizzt, anyone with magic wants to be Raistalin.

[Cantousent]

Drizzt isn't cliche. Those who copy him are the ones who are cliched. His popularity created the 'cliche'.

 

I agree. Why does something become cliched in the first place? Because it's an idea that has broad appeal? Drizzt was just fine as a character. He might have been overused, but the outright hatred folks express for the guy seems overboard. Not only that, but someone must love the character. A lot of someones.

[alanschu]

I think that's the problem. He's become so popular that it's "cool" to hate on him now. It's more "rebellious."

[Azure79]

I liked Drizzt. I thought he was cool when I first read the books. Then he started whining and crying and boo-hooing about everything. I pretty much lost interest after that.

[Diamond]

Not that I don't like Drizzt (honestly, I don't care as I haven't read a single book), but I hate, hate his "fan club".

[Dark_Raven]

I liked Drizzt. I thought he was cool when I first read the books. Then he started whining and crying and boo-hooing about everything. I pretty much lost interest after that.

I thought he was ok in the beginning, but after reaching the surface, Salavatore turned him into a superhero with swords.

[Tale]

He's kind of preachy. I've been reading the Drizzt books lately (actually just got to the point where it was appropriate to switch to the Sellswords trilo of Artemis books) and I distinctly recall him preaching on in one of the chapter introductions about faith. It felt distinctly out of place for Forgotten Realms.

 

It was basically Drizzt stating that because he never met Melilikki (even though he techncally did) during the Time of Troubles that his religion is better than everyone else's because he has faith and they don't. Which I think is as telling of Salvatore as Drizzt.

Edited February 26, 2007 by Tale

[Gromnir]

drizzle is the ideal character to exploit fantasy geeks and losers. from the very start, sex and drow were linked... were drawn pretty in modules and in fiend folio and described as decadent and promiscuous. geeks and losers not know much 'bout sex so they is more fascinated by it. drow gots same appeal as does vampires and similar beings. also, drizzle is a comic book super hero. fantasy geeks and losers tends to be fans o' comic books, and drizzle mighta' jumped straight from pages of marvel or dc. sure, drizzle started as a simply a competent drow swordsman, but salvatore quickly changed so that driz would be magic with swords in hand... capable o' acheiving the most improbable victories. most important, driz is beautiful and heroic and shunned by a society simply 'cause he is different... and his original drow brethren shun him 'cause he refused to conform. fantasy geeks and losers amost always feels likes outsiders and so they can empathize with drizzle. the thing is that drizzle still has powerful peoples who know his worth, and he has hot babes who is attracted to him, so drizzle is an outsider who has friends of quality and romance with supermodels?

 

...

 

poor driz. lucky driz.

 

bah.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Junai]

Drizzt must be the only character in FR that is not a copy of any of Tolkien's Middle-Earth heroes..

That makes him pretty unique.

 

And how can faith be out of place for FR? It's a world with 100+ Gods no?

 

J.

Edited February 26, 2007 by Junai

[Cantousent]

"he has hot babes who is attracted to him"

 

I was literally laughing in my seat.

[metadigital]

Just don't mention the Tome of Unspeakable Sexual Gratification ... or whatever it's called.

[Volourn]

"And how can faith be out of place for FR? It's a world with 100+ Gods no?"

 

Except, unliek the real worl god(s0, there is no neeed for 'faith' since it's pretty common knowledge the gods exist. They have tangible including up to them walking on Faerun. Don't need faith really when you know the gods are real.

[Dark_Raven]

"he has hot babes who is attracted to him"

 

I was literally laughing in my seat.

[Walsingham]

I'll have you know I had not a clue who this mincing fop was, approaching me on that lonely road in the sword coast. All I know was that in an instant I had to kill him.

 

"Oh look at me, I'm a poseur waving a couple of swords around and turning hapless gnolls into smoothies. For my encore I will prance up to some perfect strangers and compress a lifetime of asinine pomposity into a single sentence. Then I will skip off, pausing only to strike a heroic form against the sunset."

 

Like I say, I had to kill him. No-one with that high an opinion of themselves passes my characters by without getting (variously) a dagger in the stomach, a hand grenade down the trousers, and a bat up the nightshirt.

[Dark_Raven]

Good job, good job.

[Pop]

I think Gromnir hit the nail on the head on this one, as far as what Drizzt represents. He really is the D&D Wolverine. A brave dual-wielding superhero outcast with no roots, who just happens to fight for good because he's a badass like that. He's the hero that every nerd is in his head when he plays D&D. Heh,

 

And the whole thing with drow puzzles me. I like the idea of drow as the antithesis of the "eternal force of good" that surface elves embody (never much liked orcs in the antagonist's spot anyway) but the kind of frankly immature ideas that go with them just aren't cool. Drow are hypersexualized, and I'm not even sure if that started with RA Salvatore's god-awful descriptions (from what I remember, he threw an inkling of incest in one of the books I read.) It's kind of this idea that part of what makes the drow inherently evil is their casual attitude towards things of a carnal nature, just as much as their willingness to murder indiscriminately. It seems almost puritan to me. And part of the reason Drizzt is so popular amongst the geeks is his hypersexuality in relation to the rest of the D&D world. Living vicariously and all that (for the record, sex never works in PnP in any capacity. It's just... ew). It's one of the big reasons why I find playing PnP to be embarrassing (video game RPGs tend to be okay) it's supposed to be like comic books - you throw them away when you grow past adolescence.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Pop

[Calax]

I think Gromnir hit the nail on the head on this one, as far as what Drizzt represents. He really is the D&D Wolverine. A brave dual-wielding superhero outcast with no roots, who just happens to fight for good because he's a badass like that. He's the hero that every nerd is in his head when he plays D&D. Heh,

 

And the whole thing with drow puzzles me. I like the idea of drow as the antithesis of the "eternal force of good" that surface elves embody (never much liked orcs in the antagonist's spot anyway) but the kind of frankly immature ideas that go with them just aren't cool. Drow are hypersexualized, and I'm not even sure if that started with RA Salvatore's god-awful descriptions (from what I remember, he threw an inkling of incest in one of the books I read.) It's kind of this idea that part of what makes the drow inherently evil is their casual attitude towards things of a carnal nature, just as much as their willingness to murder indiscriminately. It seems almost puritan to me. And part of the reason Drizzt is so popular amongst the geeks is his hypersexuality in relation to the rest of the D&D world. Living vicariously and all that (for the record, sex never works in PnP in any capacity. It's just... ew). It's one of the big reasons why I find playing PnP to be embarrassing (video game RPGs tend to be okay) it's supposed to be like comic books - you throw them away when you grow past adolescence.

you wound me with your last statement sir.

 

I think everyone would want to be uber sorceror of doom death and destruction (better known as bob, in accounting) but don't like the sheer complications of being a mage. (do you have the proper spell's, ingrediants, are the conditions correct, can you use that spell, can you call a comet and so on and so on)

[Pop]

heh, I said you're supposed to. It was probably a bad analogy anyway. Not nearly as much stigma attached to comics as to PnP. Conventional wisdom would probably assert that the nerdiest comic freak is pretty average by PnP standards, for whatever reason.

 

*edit - k, I didn't actually say that. But I meant it!

Edited March 1, 2007 by Pop

[Cantousent]

Sexual promiscuity seems particularly apt in the case of drow. After all, they have become the symbol of chaotic evil and, by association, lack continence. The point isn't that they are sexually promiscuous. It is that they are promiscuous in all ways. They are random and capricious.

 

As far as Drizzt goes, I can't make much of an argument. I don't care enough about Drizzt one way or the other. In a larger sense, however, I disagree with Pop whole-heartedly. For example, I go to action flicks sometimes. Hell, my wife enjoys a good action film from time to time. Now, we're both comfortable, middle-class Americans. We are educated. We don't desire to be the "loner out to save the world." I certainly don't leave the theater wishing I were "more like that guy." I generally leave talking about the film. It provides an escape, but enjoying an action film every now and then, in and of itself, does very little to describe me as a person. The sole fact that my wife and I, over the past week watched and enjoyed the Leathal Weapon series yields very little true insight to the casual observer. I watched it and enjoyed it. Sure, I rolled my eyes at some of the scenes that held me enthralled when I saw the films the first time. Still, it was a great escape.

 

Now, I don't have any particular insecurities that prevent enjoying a PnP game. Perhaps I just lack the capacity to be embarassed by it. My biggest problem playing Dungeons and Dragons isn't that I can't find fellow adults my age to play. Hell, my groups have ranged early twenties to early sixties and from unemployed to lawyer. What is a problem, and probably the biggest reason PnP has become less and less relevant in my life, is the difficulty in accomodating conflicting schedules. That and the fact that a decent campaign requires real work on the part of the DM. That would be me the vast majority of the time, and I'm lazy.

 

So, to recap, Drow aren't evil because they're sexually promiscuous. They aren't even promiscuous because they're evil. They are promiscuous because they lack fidelity in pretty much any sense and a big heaping dose of evil is added to the mix. Enjoying a Drizzt novel (which I have yet to do) does not, by itself, make any particular statement about the maturity or intellectual capacity of the reader. Complaining about the reader, however, might make a statement about you.

 

...And why is it that Drizzt warrants so much time in this thread when I don't recall him playing a vital role in any of the games we've cited. The most important impact he has in any of these games is giving you a significant hand with the... vampires I think it is in BG2?

[Pop]

...And why is it that Drizzt warrants so much time in this thread when I don't recall him playing a vital role in any of the games we've cited. The most important impact he has in any of these games is giving you a significant hand with the... vampires I think it is in BG2?

I don't know, really. I got here late. But I suspect, since this is a thread about what sucks regarding Fantasy RPGs, that the Forgotten Realms came up at some point, and people here who hate Drizzt brought him up, resulting in this tangent.

 

But I see what you're saying. Perhaps I'm too stuck in high school, where the only kids who played D&D were the ones who got way too into it, the guys who carried around spellbooks and "spell materials". Actually, I'm having the same problems you're having with PnP. Getting into the college years you just can't find the time anymore.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Pop

[Cantousent]

Well, that's pretty much how it went down. The dreaded Drizzt made an appearance. I have to admit that I don't like the Forgotten Realms setting as such, but it has provided me with some great CRPGs.

[Pop]

tru that. It's because of all the great FR CRPGs that I like FR so much. I guess I'm biased.

 

Actually, when I played BG2 and got to the vampire den part, I always used to recruit the Shadow Thieves and the paladins as well as Drizzt, and always, sometime in the middle of battle one of the NPCs would cast a fireball, but since the NPC was an ally the damage counted as coming from me. So the fireball would go off and all of a sudden Drizzt and the paladin would turn on me because I "attacked them", and they along with Bodhi would maul me. I had to cheat to kill the fireball NPC before he could get the shot off. So these days when I play I usually go it alone, or just with Drizzt.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Yes, I had that a lot. Especially if one of the vampires 'charmed' me - I could usually dispel it within a few seconds, but one hit and the Paladins ran away. Very unhelpful bunch. Drizzt was actually useful in those battles, and usually survived them, too, unlike the shadow th- whoops, he's dead.

[CoM_Solaufein]

The Shadow Thieves were always killed off in a short amount of time. They were not that useful as allies.