"Why I Hate Fantasy RPGs"

[alanschu]

I can understand spawns being used in older games because a typical computer couldn't handle the load of having all the actors preplaced, but that's not really a valid excuse today.

 

It seems this is also a condition of developers trying to balance gameplay issues associated with non-linearity. NWN did spawns so it could create encounters more appropriate to your level. In fact, I think they are even called "Encounters" in the Toolset.

[Calax]

I can understand spawns being used in older games because a typical computer couldn't handle the load of having all the actors preplaced, but that's not really a valid excuse today.

 

It seems this is also a condition of developers trying to balance gameplay issues associated with non-linearity. NWN did spawns so it could create encounters more appropriate to your level. In fact, I think they are even called "Encounters" in the Toolset.

well... wouldn't this lead to cases like (infamously) FF8 where the enemies leveled with you (so you could hit lvl 99 pretty easily at the start of the game)

[alanschu]

It would.

[Diamond]

It would.

IIRC, in NWN's toolset you can control the degree of randomness of encounters, so encounter creatures' power is not always equal to your own.

[alanschu]

That sounds right. It wasn't a perfect match. But that is besides the point. I brought it up since we were discussing spawned versus preplaced enemies.

[Diamond]

NWN's encounters are more like preplaced spawns.

Also, they can be one-off or recurring.

[alanschu]

Sure, but the characters are still spawned. Which seemed to be what Wistrik was complaining about (in addition to respawning characters).

 

 

I can understand spawns being used in older games because a typical computer couldn't handle the load of having all the actors preplaced, but that's not really a valid excuse today. Why include one of the detection spells if the player can't detect anyone who hasn't spawned yet?

[CoM_Solaufein]

I don't like forced NPCs either. I prefer the Baldur's Gate type of, "Hey can I join your group?" or "Would you like some excitement in your life? Come join me." Plus NPCs have to be interesting, have a back story, etc. One thing that annoyed me about Baldur's Gate 1 is the lack of communicative NPCs, they were nothing more than mules to hold all of the loot you found. Baldur's Gate 2 did it right in that regard, communicating NPC's, interesting personal quests and romances.

[Walsingham]

I liked the BG approach. Some NPCs come with baggage, e.g. Minsc (superb) and Dynanheir (awful). However, it wasn't wrong before I realised I could hand Dynaheir a bottle of mysterious potion and in a friendly fashion command her to drink it. The rather predictable death was met with cries of "Good heaven's how dreadful!" Then cheerful whistling.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I liked the BG approach. Some NPCs come with baggage, e.g. Minsc (superb) and Dynanheir (awful). However, it wasn't wrong before I realised I could hand Dynaheir a bottle of mysterious potion and in a friendly fashion command her to drink it. The rather predictable death was met with cries of "Good heaven's how dreadful!" Then cheerful whistling.

Dynaheir was great. I wish she had a place in BG2.

[Diamond]

I didn't play BG1, but from what I read, I think Bioware killed off less liked and annoying characters in BG2.

[alanschu]

Or gave them brief cameos, which ultimately let you kill them off if you really wanted.

[CoM_Solaufein]

Plus they never made any mention to some of them like Skie, Alora and a few others.

[Plano Skywalker]

Forced parties is something I can understand in a very linear game, but the nonsense of forcing evil characters into a party consisting of good characters has got to stop. I don't associate with such people in my personal life, and I certainly don't want them in my virtual party. Maybe it's a funny joke to developers, but I'm not laughing.

 

[[sLIGHT K2 SPOILER ALERT]]

 

 

I absolutely agree. While I do see the benefit in having forced joinable NPCs for the purposes of storytelling, the current implementation (the KOTORs, JE, and, apparently, NWNs2) is not the right way to do it. It is, of course, the least time-consuming and easiest way to do it.

 

But here is the thing: it really isn't even necessary for good storytelling. In K2, for instance, you had to take Candyman down to the surface of Onderon for a certain mission. Fine...that we can have...during that time, Candyman can fill your ear with all kinds of story clues. Also, Candyman tracked down Exile in the endgame and assisted. That we can have. But LS Exile really had no business taking him along in the middle game BUT HAD NO CHOICE but to do so because of game design.

 

And, even with Kreia, there should have been some point in the middle game where you could release her as your mentor. Obviously, she will keep reappearing for plot reasons at various intervals in the game but, being FORCED to keep her as a joinable was just wrong.

 

I think the answer is FORCED JOINABLE = YES but RELEASABLE after they give up their first story clue.

 

And, there should be slots for hirelings/droids, etc that don't play as much of a story role and don't have as much dialogue.

There should be quite a pool to choose from in these slots.

 

I have no problem with there being 1 or 2 non-releasable, deus ex machina storytelling characters. In a Star Wars game, the pilot and the astromech droid come to mind. In a fantasy game, I don't know, could be some sort of guide that you just can't proceed on without.

 

The bottom line is that good party management is an important part of the role play experience and does not have to be sacrificed in order to tell a good, immersive story.

[Dark_Raven]

"Of course they are short. Less places to explore, less side quests to do compared to older games."

 

Nope.

Why yes.

[Dark_Raven]

One of the biggest things that bothers me in RPGs in general, is that when you fight a party member... they are incredibly good. but when they decide to hop into your party, the "forget" everything they knew and can hardly take a hit.

Good old amnesia. Like hey I thought you were good! I am? uhhh.

[Walsingham]

I liked the BG approach. Some NPCs come with baggage, e.g. Minsc (superb) and Dynanheir (awful). However, it wasn't wrong before I realised I could hand Dynaheir a bottle of mysterious potion and in a friendly fashion command her to drink it. The rather predictable death was met with cries of "Good heaven's how dreadful!" Then cheerful whistling.

Dynaheir was great. I wish she had a place in BG2.

 

Hey, I liked Montaron.

I cleaned that Harper lodge out like an avocado when I discovered who killed him. I still butcher them whenever I find them. Bloody conspiracists.

 

[Dark_Raven]

I liked Montaron,

dead

. I only had him in the party to get Xzar.

[Walsingham]

At the time having someone so refreshingly vicious was a novelty. Plus he was so very useful in his role as thief fighter. I was immensely looking forward tro putting him back in the team with Xzar.

[Sand]

I never had Skie in my party. I never did find her. Then again, I never looked either.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Sand

[Wistrik]

An area-wide spawning of characters would be preferable to having them appear as you get near the spawn point. That way you could still have their numbers/equipment scale for challenge, but they'd also be around for spells like Detect Evil to work properly. Having them spawn once for the remainder of the game is sufficient, in my opinion.

 

NWN2 doesn't seem to implement respawning, but it does appear to use multiple triggers for a single spawn (haven't looked with the toolset), so you can for example fight the same group (again) just by entering a room via a different hallway. On the other hand, you can enter an apparently empty room, park your party, and have creatures spawn right on top of the party as you approach the room from another hallway. A one-time area-wide spawn would eliminate all such oddities.

[Dark_Raven]

I never had Skie in my party. I never did find her. Then again, I never looked either.

The internets is your friend.

[Walsingham]

I can't remember who she is. This is good, as I can hope to stumble across her when I replay it. The next time I am crippled in bed for three weeks.

[Spider]

It's kinda hard to stumble across Skie. She's part of a quest for another NPC and without him in the party she isn't joinable.

[Dark_Raven]

It's kinda hard to stumble across Skie. She's part of a quest for another NPC and without him in the party she isn't joinable.

Yeah, I think it was Eldoth, both of whom I never had in my party.