Shooting for 30 hours?

[Volourn]

"What "roleplaying" options really existed in Baldur's Gate? You could "play" evil....if you didn't mind fighting hordes of guards. Certainly didn't see much difference between classes or even gender however."

 

Roleplaying is more than choosing good vs. evil. Then again, plenty of quests offered good or evil ways to solve thenm. On top of this, role-playing was also served well by how you interacted with potential joinable npcs. Heck, the Minsc/Dynaheir/Wizard quest illsutrates this a lot.

 

 

"Freshness of it's approach? A world with a linear plot, sidequests, and tons of monster killing? I guess you didn't play RPGs before Baldur's Gate. You could have at least mentioned a game like Ultima, which actually granted the player the opportunity to do stuff other than quest (like bake bread if you wanted to!)."

 

Oh please. Don't give me that 'old skool RPGs were awesome RPG games'. Outside of Ultima, 'old skool RPGs' were nothing more than dungeon haks that were leveling treadmills. As deep as POR2 is at its most shallow.

 

I;m sorry but while the GB games were fun when I wa slike 10 they didn't know what role-playing was. GB, M&M, Wizardry, and a host of other games were all like that.

 

Ultima was the EXCEPTION not the RULE.

 

 

"Unless you consider doing sidequest X before sidequest Y as a "distinct" difference....but that wouldn't differentiate between the game and other games at all)."

 

BG may noy be the best role-playing experience; but outside of Ultima and a few other games it CRUSHES 'old school RPGs'.

 

 

"The original Baldur's Gate had it right. Leveling was never intrusive and effectively reflected the development of your character through the adventure, the latter being the point of the game..."

 

BG is an excpetion; not the rule. Most old school games (GB aside) were all about fast leveling.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Volourn

[LadyCrimson]

When was this? If you don't mind telling us your age, that is.

 

I'm not sure what age has to do with it, I just had old-fashioned, rather prim parents (they were both born in the early/mid 30's if that's interesting to you at all), even for the period of time I grew up in (70's/early 80's). They didn't think TV in general was good for a child's mind/development, and how many hours of TV I could watch a day + content type was strictly regulated even into my teens. They objected to Popeye for the violence but also more for the demeaning stereotypes it often presented (in their eyes).

 

And I'm 37.

Edited January 14, 2006 by LadyCrimson

[Lyric Suite]

And it consists of a handful of games...Baldur's Gate not being one of them.

 

Which is but a testament on how bad 'roleplaying' computer RPGs have gotten considering Baldur's Gate is better then everything released this past few years.

 

Make no mistake, the reason i choosed BG1 as the object of my argument is exactly that the game had many inherent flaws, yet, it succeeded in those elements which i consider pivotal of a great roleplaying experience.

 

Truly, from your last reply you seem so stuck with game mechanics you have completely forgotten why those games need to be played to begin with.

 

You ask me what difference is there between 'THAT' and an adventure game, or reading a (fiction) book, i say: there is none. They all serve a similar purpose. Their approach may be different, but they share the same goal.

 

The issue here is that you cannot focus on how a particular medium goes about achieving this particular common goal and nothing else, because there is no value in that by itself.

 

Seriously, what do you get out of those so called 'roleplaying options'? What does it mean to you to be able to be 'evil' or 'good' in itself? Torment is often slandered for lacking 'roleplaying options'. Please, feel free to explain to me the appeal of having options in itself, with no regard as to whether they are REALLY worth taking in the first place.

 

If you are using Baldur's Gate as a baseline for playing at your own pace, then literally every RPG is just as good. Pacing is moot in most RPGs, which let you (despite the fact that the hordes of bad guys are coming, or a meteor is coming, or whatever) wander aimlessly doing pointless little fun sidequests. You can play through KOTOR at your own pace as well.

 

I say Baldur's Gate offered a great level of freedom that i have yet to experience in an RPG since. The main quest literally doesn't start until you enter Baldur's Gate.

 

Many people seem to be rather tired of the common 'save the world' plot scenario, and Baldur's Gate is often cited as one of the games that didn't follow this tired device. Why do you assume?

 

Freshness of it's approach?  A world with a linear plot, sidequests, and tons of monster killing?

 

Again, quit being so obsessed about game mechanics. The freshness i'm referring to applies to Bioware, not the game. The way Baldur's Gate is crafted is very natural and direct. Every other game they made since has a 'forced' quality to it, like they are trying too hard to please their fans whereas in BG1 they allowed themselves more personal freedom.

 

Torment achieved it because you were actually able to play through the game in a relatively distinct way.

 

Nonsense. Torment was such a successful attempt because the game was developed following the criteria of the developers themselves. The chemistry behind the group effort that produced this game is almost palpable.

 

You see, in Torment options actually meant something, because whilst their number was relatively limited compared to 'some' games i could mention, each one of them offered as unique an experience as the developers were able to design.

 

For comparison there was thousands of things you could do in Morrowind but none of them amount to jack. This is why i'm not at all impressed when you talk about 'roleplaying options'...

Edited January 14, 2006 by Lyric Suite

[Judge Hades]

Baldur's Gate 1 is the game I use as a standard to judge all others.

[GhostofAnakin]

Baldur's Gate 1 is the game I use as a standard to judge all others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Baldur's Gate 2 is better.

[Judge Hades]

I agree but BG1 is the standard.

[Haitoku]

Baldur's Gate 1 is the game I use as a standard to judge all others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Baldur's Gate 2 is better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What makes you say that?

 

... Never tried it, but I think Planescape: Torment better then both. "

[Judge Hades]

I also agree with that.

[Darque]

I really need to reinstall PS:T and finally finish it.

 

I would have already beaten it once already but my old comp (which I was playing it on) tweaked out and died while I was in Curst Prison <_<

[GhostofAnakin]

What makes you say that? 

 

... Never tried it, but I think Planescape: Torment better then both.  "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I just enjoyed the story better.

[Haitoku]

I really need to reinstall PS:T and finally finish it.

 

I would have already beaten it once already but my old comp (which I was playing it on) tweaked out and died while I was in Curst Prison  <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You really need to finish it...

 

It will leave you feeling something very special.

[Volourn]

If I want to see the general PST story, I'll just watch a soap. (and, I do).

 

And, their amnesia storylines tend to better acted with sueprior dialogue. The wekaness of course is there is no player/viewer choice. Hahaha.

 

R00fles!

[Darque]

I really need to reinstall PS:T and finally finish it.

 

I would have already beaten it once already but my old comp (which I was playing it on) tweaked out and died while I was in Curst Prison  <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You really need to finish it...

 

It will leave you feeling something very special.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I probably will, probably quite soon in fact

 

Of course I'll have to start from the begining.. but that's ok

[Haitoku]

If I want to see the general PST story, I'll just watch a soap. (and, I do).

 

And, their amnesia storylines tend to better acted with sueprior dialogue. The wekaness of course is there is no player/viewer choice. Hahaha.

 

R00fles!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, you got that right.

 

I'm not big on role-playing, so that's probably why I consider it the best PC RPG of all time.

[Weiser_Cain]

Wolf is the game I use as a standard to judge all others.

[Judge Hades]

Wolf?

[Calax]

30 or so hours is a pretty good average if your going for a story that people will be able to stay with and enjoy.

 

Demands for a 100 hr story are ubsurd... I mean think about it, what most gamers hail as the paragon of storytelling and rpg is Final fantasy seven. While you can log more than 100 hrs on a game in that it's following all the side quests and trying to get everything... the actual story can be rushed at about 40 hrs.

 

as for not holding true to the D&D franchise... well you have to realize they are using the D&D name to get Forgotten Realms.

[Weiser_Cain]

Wolf ran on this thing called DOS.

[Judge Hades]

Never heard of it. Then again I have never ran a game off DOS. All the Old School games I played were for the C64.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I really need to reinstall PS:T and finally finish it.

 

I would have already beaten it once already but my old comp (which I was playing it on) tweaked out and died while I was in Curst Prison  <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only good thing about PST is sitting on the shelf collecting dust. It's a waste of hard drive space.

[CoM_Solaufein]

Baldur's Gate 1 is the game I use as a standard to judge all others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Baldur's Gate 2 is better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The thing I liked about Baldur's Gate 2 is the improved NPC interaction with each other and the pc. That was non-existent in the first one. I like the first one because of a better story and more areas to explore and quests to take.

[Gromnir]

Have to agree with Volourn. Took roughly 40 hours to complete Torment the first time I played it... missed a few things in the first third of the game... and despite being quite linear and fast-paced in the second half, that was the most enjoyable game I've ever played.

 

If NWN2 is a quality game, 40 hours for the single-player portion is plenty.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are assuming that the MAXIMUM estimate of the developers is the correct one. However normally even the minimum estimate is normally an overexaggeration. This is from my experience, at least.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...

 

it had to happen sooner or later... roshan managed to be making a genuine point.

 

anybody 'round here live near the ocean? has the seas turned to blood yet?

 

while Gromnir would be perfectly satisfied with a 40 hour game, developer estimates is typical ridiculous. vol points to ps:t as being 40 hours... but estimated hours were 60+. anybody recall HoW? that game were so short and so underwhelming that to salvage some of their dwindling reputation with fans, fergie had bis develop a free add-on to HoW. get josh on the board and get him to tell you what were bis announced estimates of the 10-15 hour HoW.

 

even if you is one of the folks that does every possible quest and dialogue in a crpg, a safe bet is to cut bottom end of developer guestimate by 1/3. 30-40 hours becomes 20.

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, the important thing to 'member is that roshan had a real point. so please excuse us while we go get started on our bomb shelter.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[mkreku]

Vampire: Bloodlines

 

Hades styles:

HAHAHA!!

 

Ok, so my sense of humour is weird. But that was damn funny!

[kirottu]

I don

[Jumjalum]

I'm actually with Hades on this, leveling is far too fast on modern CRPGs.

 

The original Baldur's Gate had it right. Leveling was never intrusive and effectively reflected the development of your character through the adventure, the latter being the point of the game...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yup BG had the best level progression, levelling up was a HUGE deal especially since there were only 7 (iirc) levels in the game. I don't expect to see this in NWN2 since it would mean the game would have to be massive to get anywhere near the level cap but it would be nice. The Jefferson project was going to be along those lines before it was cancelled - huge pool of feats and skills, limited levels.