The end is the beginning is the end.

[alanschu]

I suspect the XBOX 360 will eradicate the PC gaming industry about as effectively as the XBOX/PS2 did.

 

 

 

Though a bit of me (perhaps the elitist caught in denial) does consider supporting the consoles to be a financial vote for the "Graphics first" school of game design

Edited November 22, 2005 by alanschu

[Atreides]

Yeah, I'll be getting a 360 to drive in the final nail into the PC coffin.

 

Actually no, because it's expensive and I don't own a tv. The PC will always be around.

[alanschu]

An interesting thing I've noted is that to get the most out of these consoles seems to require a $1000+ TV to go along with it.

[Surreptishus]

Those TVs will become commonplace as more and more braodcasters switch to hi def and the next gen DVDs go on sale. MS and Sony are just thinking ahead with that aspect.

[Darque]

All this "PCs are the main game platform and consoles are stealing our games" crap smells of stubborn elitism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Call it what you will, but it's a reality, would you want to deny that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't deny it's stubborn elitism

 

Sucks being the smallest market doesn't it? :D

 

Don't feel bad, I was once like you... then I got a console or two to go with my PC and suddenly my bitterness disappeared.

[Musopticon?]

Are pcists really the smallest market in terms of games?

[Meshugger]

Those TVs will become commonplace as more and more braodcasters switch to hi def and the next gen DVDs go on sale. MS and Sony are just thinking ahead with that aspect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep, but it will be a while before i start investing in an HDTV. I would never buy one for a console though, i might reconsider when all broadcasts are in HDTV(a 27" costs a whopping 1099

Edited November 22, 2005 by Meshugger

[Darque]

Are pcists really the smallest market in terms of games?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Apparently, otherwise there'd be more PC games released and fewer die hard PCers ******** about the lack of games and developers going console. "

[Pidesco]

I suspect that if you were to count piracy, the PC market would not be quite as small as it seems to be compared to the console market.

[Surreptishus]

The console and PC game industry takes a hit from piracy. The question is, how big is that hit and is it having an effect?

[alanschu]

I wonder what the PC market is like compared to the GameCube market.

 

Those TVs will become commonplace as more and more braodcasters switch to hi def and the next gen DVDs go on sale. MS and Sony are just thinking ahead with that aspect.

 

Fair enough. But that time is still not now. Is it really much different than getting that uber-DX9 card when there is no games out that utilize it? I don't think it would be a stretch to claim that most people will not use these new consoles with an HDTV.

 

Having said that, the support for it is never a bad thing. I just thought I'd mention it since I have had conversations with many people that tell me how expensive PC gaming is, yet they have a $2000 HDTV for their consoles.

[Delerius_Jedi]

Those TVs will become commonplace as more and more braodcasters switch to hi def and the next gen DVDs go on sale. MS and Sony are just thinking ahead with that aspect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep, but it will be a while before i start investing in an HDTV. I would never buy one for a console though, i might reconsider when all broadcasts are in HDTV(a 27" costs a whopping 1099

[kirottu]

I don

[Hell Kitty]

the only real reason for this "decline of the PC" is that the major players MS/Sony will do everything to sell as many consoles as possible. And the best way to do that is to fool people into thinking that the PC is dying as a gaming machine

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sony and Microsoft, or Nintendo and Sega, were never the ones claiming the PC gaming is dying, it was typically the pro-PC crowd doing the "woe is me" thing. See the "consoles have been a constant poison to the PC industry" comment earlier in the thread.

 

Thief 3 and D[eu]s Ex 2 could have been much more if the Xbox had never been released

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, these two games could have been so much more had they built there own engine from scratch (as Harvey Smith later wished they'd done) instead of taking apart the Unreal engine and reuilding it as a piece of crap. Better design decisions and maybe some better talent, I mean they couldn't get the water and goddamn flash bombs to work.

 

The best developers make great games no matter the limitations. If anything, the problem is formerly PC only developers are moving into making console versions of games for the money (perhaps out of necessity) without really having an understanding of console gaming, so we're left with a messy PC game shoved awkwardly into a console.

 

Though a bit of me (perhaps the elitist caught in denial) does consider supporting the consoles to be a financial vote for the "Graphics first" school of game design

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That seems an odd comment, even if it's not particularly serious, given that PCs, with the ability to constantly upgrade, have always been the domain of graphics whores. Sure, the new consoles may be capable of better graphics when first released, but that never lasts.

 

I suspect that if you were to count piracy, the PC market would not be quite as small as it seems to be compared to the console market.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

With todays high speed internet, people can play all the lastest PC games without ever buying a single one. You can pirate console games, but it's far more troublesome. I think the ease of piracy on PC is a problem, but I think the console market is much bigger than the PC gaming market due to the ease of use for people who like to play games now and then, but aren't really into gaming as a hobby and wouldn't consider themselves gamers.

 

Anyway, as for the Xbox 360, I see the new generation of consoles as being the same as the last. I have a PC, PS2 and GC, and I never got an Xbox because there was nothing on it I was interested in that I couldn't get on PC or the other consoles.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Hell Kitty

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"That seems an odd comment, even if it's not particularly serious, given that PCs, with the ability to constantly upgrade, have always been the domain of graphics whores. Sure, the new consoles may be capable of better graphics when first released, but that never lasts."

 

Yes, but with consoles, even poor people can be "graphics whores". No need to cry about the good old times when design was law, etc, etc, when everybody is running their games on the same hardware and you can be certain that the newest games run just as well on your machine as they do on your rich friend's.

[alanschu]

That seems an odd comment, even if it's not particularly serious, given that PCs, with the ability to constantly upgrade, have always been the domain of graphics whores. Sure, the new consoles may be capable of better graphics when first released, but that never lasts.

 

It's not an odd comment if you consider the focus that the console developers are making this year.

 

MS forsees the future with tons of people essentially on an assembly line creating art content for many games. Talks I've had with the Games Group seminars at my University which have included John Buchanan from EA as well as one of the head programmers from Bioware anticipate disproportionate amount of the new resources available with the new consoles to go towards graphics. The Bioware chap anticipates that at least half of the memory for the XBOX 360 will be reserved for the graphics engine. Both the EA and Bioware expect a huge increase in total percentage of available resources being allocated to graphics over the current consoles, with a decrease in resource percentage for AI and physics and whatnot (though this will still be an increase in absolute resources, as 5% of 1000 > 10% of 100).

 

Metadigital has made many references to I think it was the GDC where there was actually a big outcry against the focus of graphics driving the cost of development up way too fast. Part of the thing Will Wright was pimping about Spore was that the world is populated with user-made content from a central server, helping them to reduce the costs. He was also one of the vocal people at the conference concerned about escalating development costs.

 

 

In my opinion, with every new console release there seems to be just a little bit more focus on the graphics than the previous version. Not to say previous consoles didn't hype up graphics, because they are a very easy thing to observe. I just get the impression that the focus is slowly shifting more and more towards graphics.

 

PC's aren't necessarily an exception. Though I doubt it influences the market as much as the consoles do.

[Hell Kitty]

even poor people can be "graphics whores".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Since when do poor people buy the latest consoles at launch? Just how well off are the "poor" people in your area?

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Since when do poor people buy the latest consoles at launch? Just how well off are the 'poor' people in your area?"

 

It seems you're misunderstanding me, read it again.

 

And no matter what, it would be redicilous to interpret poor, in this context, as truly poor. It's quite obvious, really, that it was used to mean people who can't really afford to keep their PCs as up-to-date gaming rigs.

[Hell Kitty]

In my opinion, with every new console release there seems to be just a little bit more focus on the graphics than the previous version.  Not to say previous consoles didn't hype up graphics, because they are a very easy thing to observe.  I just get the impression that the focus is slowly shifting more and more towards graphics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think there is definitely a bigger focus on graphics with this new generation of console than past consoles, but that big focus has been there on PC for ages anyway.

 

I suppose buying a new generation console in the first year ot two of its release could be seen as supporting the "graphics first" school of design, much as buying the most powerful PC video card could be seen the same way. The difference between buying the latest console versus buying the latest video card however, it that if you buy the latest console, you will have a bunch of games at launch that can only be played on that system, whereas buying the latest video card at launch is more for bragging rights, with previous generation cards running the latest games just fine, hence the "PC is the domain of the graphics whore".

[alanschu]

I see it as "supporting graphics first" school of design based on what those involved with the XBOX development have stated about how they see the future of videogaming progressing.

 

 

It doesn't have anything really to do with the buyer's intentions or expectations from the system.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I blame PC developers. I got so fed up of jumping through hoops just to make something I'd just paid for work I ceased to care. Paying

[Hell Kitty]

that it was used to mean people who can't really afford to keep their PCs as up-to-date gaming rigs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If they can afford to buy the latest console at launch then they can afford to buy a quality video card. And of course while they can only afford a console, their rich friends probably have the latest PC hardware which they can afford to upgrade constantly.

 

When new PC video cards are released ever few months, compared to new consoles released every few years, the PC will alway be the domain of the graphics-first crowd, both consumers and developers alike.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Hell Kitty

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"When new PC video cards are released ever few months, compared to new consoles released every few years, the PC will alway be the domain of the graphics-first crowd, both consumers and developers alike."

 

Of course. But, as I said, you're misunderstanding me.

 

Console gamers are labeled as graphics whores (by PC gamers) because since they don't have to worry about the performance, they will complain if a game is ugly or looks out-dated. There is no vocal group of people playing games on crap machines (say, NMA), demanding that the games should run perfectly fine on 5 year old computers and declaring that anyone who disagrees is a retarded moron.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I was just reading one of the faulty 360 threads. Makes me even more in favour of releasing stuff in Japan first so it can get a proper test :D

[Judge Hades]

Until a console can make use of MS Word and allow me to make PDFs when I need to then a console will never be better than a PC. I need a device that can be a good utility and provide good entertainment. If I can't have both then it better be damn impressive in one or the either departments which the next gen game machines are not.

Edited November 22, 2005 by Hades_One