BETTER STORYLINE

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The stories were both enjoyable, IMO, until the ending.  Thus I voted for KOTOR 1 because the ending was more satisfying (yes, it was simplistic, but so are most SW stories).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

KOTOR II impressed me more than either Jade Empire or KOTOR even in it's less than perfect completeness. The logic behind it is simple KOTOR and JE complete were Biowares best efforts I was not impressed, call me jaded (pun ) or just that I have outgrown Biowares simple stories. On the other hand given time to pull things together Obsidian would only improve on KOTOR II.

[Kalfear]

In KOTOR1?? if so sure i could see it coming but it was interesting all the same...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not when you visit Kashyyyk first then spend the next 10 hours of the game waiting for the the rest of the universe to catch up.

 

Bioware did exactly the same thing in Jade Empire. Its either that subtle storytelling is beyond them. They are intentially writing for stupid people who dont pay attention to what is going on, or they are so proud of their plot twists that the feel the need to illumiate them with "neon signs".

 

The fact that KOTOR II dosnt rely on any sort of twist is one of the things that makes the story more interesting. Plot twists are one off devices which even if they work well, and done well they can certainly enhance a story "Luke I am your Father" but you will never get that same shock value subsequently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

SP, I dont think Bioware is incapable of writing subtle storytelling, I think they write to their audience. Which is a good bussiness practice to be honest.

 

I know (other then being Revan) nothing in KotOR1 surprised me and NOTHING at all in JE surprised me (By the start of chapter 3 I had guess ALL twists in the plot correctly). Yet you visit Bioware boards and you see never ending posts from people claiming they WERE surprised. Then you look back at these boards when K2 was originally released and you see the never ending threads from players who didnt understand parts or all of the story lines. LOL, there was endless posts about K2 being bugged when in fact the answers to peoples questions were in the storyline if they paid attention.

 

It just becomes appearent the many many players out there DONT want to be challenged or forced to think far as storylines goes, they want it all layed out clearly with no forshadowing what so ever. So Bioware is writing to their customer base.

 

I agree its fustrating to not be challenged and not have to think, but many players only skim read rather then actually read whats being said in todays linear games. Thats how they want it.

 

I still rank K2 as better then K1 or JE because it was NOT written for the reading impaired but when you look at the shear number of posts you have to realize people just dont want to be challenged in their games today.

 

Its just a said truth to todays gaming, if it challenges you beyond combat its bad. You see it over and over in many titles. Those that said Halo had a good story (its story was written like a freaking Jack and Jill book), those that hated K2 storyline or claim it was less detailed then K1 story, those that say K1 or JE wasnt linear or predictable.

 

Heck, just look at this poll itself and how many "THINK" K1 storyline was better. Anyone who reads even casually knows K2 was better written, but K1 was much much much more direct in its writing style.

 

I agree with you, but afraid we in the minority on this one.

[dufflover]

K2 style stories seem more suited for movies.

I know there are people who think opposite but I like games which, although blantantly obvious in some parts, still provides a fulfulling experience.

And at least with a movie, you are not the Exile, so you won't be annoyed that you can't ditch Kreia - just accuse the onscreen character of being stupid...

[Lord Tingeling]

OMG PALLY. Been a while.

 

 

For the record, let us make one thing clear: Bioware *sucks* at making deep stories. Bioware *sucks* when it comes to good/evil in their games.

 

TSL's story was subtle, witty, and also quite complicated, in a good way. KotOR1, on the other hand, had a story so blatantly simple and obvious it was ridiculous. Omg j00 R Revan!!1! TEh big suprise!11!1

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

K2 style stories seem more suited for movies.

I know there are people who think opposite but I like games which, although blantantly obvious in some parts, still provides a fulfulling experience.

And at least with a movie, you are not the Exile, so you won't be annoyed that you can't ditch Kreia - just accuse the onscreen character of being stupid...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That dosnt make sense for the following reasons.

 

1. A movie is much shorter than a game and 3 hours isnt time for an average movie to have a complex plot.

 

2. You dont have the ability to cross reference in a movie. You cant rewind and play the dialogue over in order to get the whole picture.Therefore everything needs to be more straightforward.

 

A movie type plot in a 50 hour game however lacks the depth that having the extra time and involvement requires. K2's plot needs that time where as K1's dosnt since its about as deep as puddle and as difficult to see the bottom of

 

As for people being annoyed because they cant ditch Kreia, well too bad you cant ditch any of the KOTOR I characters either because the story is told through them in the same way. Since you could see Bastila's fall coming a mile off (plus it was pretty much a carbon copy of NwN) why did you never get the option to leave her with the Jedi. Or lock her in the cargo hold. That is an accusation you would have to level at both games.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

OMG PALLY. Been a while.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Took the kids over to meet their grandparents for the first time

[Tel Aviv]

Bioware *sucks* when it comes to good/evil in their games.

Ahh. But BioWare made vast improvement over our much-loved Malak with Jade Empire though. The

brothers Sun

were excellent antagonists,

Sun Li

especially,

lets not forget his fine beard

. In some ways they are comparable to TSL's baddies, in that

two are made out to have more of a role in things, yet are simple diversions for the primary antagonist

. Then of course there is the

Darth Nihilus\Deaths Hand

resemblance! Don't think I hadn't noticed Muzyka, wherever you be!

 

As for the KOTOR\TSL conundrum I prefer TSL's bleaker story arc. Yes yes yes, it can be messy at times... (and hurried) ...yet it is infinitely more complex than KOTOR. I think the exile is very under appreciated also, OE gave us the opportunity to role-play, to give our character actual dimension. BioWare did no such thing.

[Padmi Skydrunkard]

KOTOR was more fun in my opinion

[dufflover]

simple and obvious it was ridiculous. Omg j00 R Revan!!1! TEh big suprise!11!1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OMG. Kreia is evil! The big surprise!!!!

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"OMG. Kreia is evil! The big surprise!!!!"

 

It wasn't ever meant to be a surprise.

[Darkfire]

A difficult question to be sure.

 

KOTOR being the first will always have a special place, much like Baldur Gate has, but I have to say KOTOR II was a better storyline for me.

 

Part I has the whole twist thing for it, which though quite obvious if you paid attention, was very good from a context point of view (look at how desperate the Jedi masters were to risk such a thing!) and was the first time I'd seen such a twist used (I'm sure someone can say it was used before though).

 

Part II though had much more depth than the whole good vs. evil thing in that it made you think what Revan was really trying to do. Plus I could be a bad guy without feeling like a petty gangster.

 

Really though I take the story as a whole with I and II together now. It will be interesting to see where part III will go...

[metadigital]

Thats like telling a falling man he isn't falling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it's like telling a falling man he can't fly if he chooses to.

[metadigital]

K2 style stories seem more suited for movies.

I know there are people who think opposite but I like games which, although blantantly obvious in some parts, still provides a fulfulling experience.

And at least with a movie, you are not the Exile, so you won't be annoyed that you can't ditch Kreia - just accuse the onscreen character of being stupid...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That dosnt make sense for the following reasons.

1. A movie is much shorter than a game and 3 hours isnt time for an average movie to have a complex plot.

...

As for people being annoyed because they cant ditch Kreia, well too bad you cant ditch any of the KOTOR I characters either because the story is told through them in the same way. Since you could see Bastila's fall coming a mile off (plus it was pretty much a carbon copy of NwN) why did you never get the option to leave her with the Jedi. Or lock her in the cargo hold. That is an accusation you would have to level at both games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obviously you haven't watched the Direector's Cut of the LotR trilogy ... I think Peter Jackson is gunning for Wagner's crown. :D

 

If you ditched / hid / rubber hose over the head and stuff in a closet Bastila in KotOR then someone else would have to be sacrificed to escape from jawless. Or the PC would be captured / turned / killed. So as obvious as Bastila's cature and fall was, it was alsofundamental to the very simplistic plot.

 

I certainly agree that K2 had a better plot; it was woefully implemented and therefore didn't translate into a good game. (Poor philosophical dissertation, notwithstanding. " )

 

I used to be able to watch the direst acting as long as the underlying plot was good (Doctor Who anyone?). Then I learnt about acting, and more importantly good acting, and now I can't watch a film where I can see the acting. Shadowlands is a simple true story about CS Lewis meeting the love of his life; no special effects, no grand designs -- yet it is masterfully compelling because of the superior performance of Antony Hopkins. K2 has a great plot, good shade in the light / dark -- good / evil -- but the terrible implementation meant playing it is like trying to watch Gigli.

 

That said, the two stories are very different animals, and all comparisons are odious.

[Shryke]

...to escape from jawless.

 

i thought that said "to escape from the jawas" at first

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Obviously you haven't watched the Direector's Cut of the LotR trilogy ... I think Peter Jackson is gunning for Wagner's crown.  :D

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have but obviously he too considered it too much for the cinema audience and stripped the more complex elements out for general release. Which really only reinforces the point I made.

 

Since I know the books inside out anyway its not really anything new to me at least. And even the directors cut is less complex than the books themselves especailly when you take the whole history into account. But again it's about pacing. Reading a book is a much more sedate affair which you do at your own pace, giving you time to digest what it going on.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Ahh. But BioWare made vast improvement over our much-loved Malak with Jade Empire though. The

brothers Sun

were excellent antagonists,

Sun Li

especially,

lets not forget his fine beard

. In some ways they are comparable to TSL's baddies, in that

two are made out to have more of a role in things, yet are simple diversions for the primary antagonist

. Then of course there is the

Darth Nihilus\Deaths Hand

resemblance! Don't think I hadn't noticed Muzyka, wherever you be!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Biggest problem with Jade Empire was how the NPCs worked. They either sit on their butts and recharge your abilities which quite frankly I never needed. Or they die leaving you to kill everything and then pop again fully healed. At least KOTORs NPCS had a function beyond being a talking book to spoonfeed you their background. In Jade Empire they were more unwanted hangers on than comrades.

[metadigital]

Obviously you haven't watched the Direector's Cut of the LotR trilogy ... I think Peter Jackson is gunning for Wagner's crown.  :D

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have but obviously he too considered it too much for the cinema audience and stripped the more complex elements out for general release. Which really only reinforces the point I made.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Um, that was a joke.

Since I know the books inside out anyway its not really anything new to me at least. And even the directors cut is less complex than the books themselves especailly when you take the whole history into account. But again it's about pacing. Reading a book is a much more sedate affair which you do at your own pace, giving you time to digest what it going on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True I don't envy them the task that they aquitted themselves of so well. (Iread the books when I couldn't wait any longer to findout what happened in the Return of The King. Longest two weeks in recent memory. Although I enjoyed it, the target readership is about teenage, I think, and I was not very interested in prolonging my agony by reading the extra historical appendices at the end of my copy. Tolkien, too, had quite simplistic characters, though: no bad characters doing good acts to bring about a evil masterplan, or good characters doing evil acts to mitigate worse evil, etc.)

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Um, that was a joke. 

 

True I don't envy them the task that they aquitted themselves of so well. (Iread the books when I couldn't wait any longer to findout what happened in the Return of The King. Longest two weeks in recent memory. Although I enjoyed it, the target readership is about teenage, I think, and I was not very interested in prolonging my agony by reading the extra historical appendices at the end of my copy. Tolkien, too, had quite simplistic characters, though: no bad characters doing good acts to bring about a evil masterplan, or good characters doing evil acts to mitigate worse evil, etc.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh. :"> Jokes dont come across that well on message boards.

 

It depends how far back you go. The Istari (Gandalf and friends) were the same type of divine beings as the Balrog. Because they had almost destroyed the earth in Melkors time by doing the whole assault of the divine powers thing they sent the wizards against Sauron to be a more subtle and less destructive force. Saruman started off very much as a "good guy" but he delved too deeply into the artifices of the enemy and became trapped. Both he and Sauron are Aules servents (or rather were) and he's the closest Middle Earth has to a god of technology.

 

Sauron in the age of Numenor is very much doing good acts to bring about an evil plan. In the guise of Anatar. So in many ways everyone has already had their roles set as it were in previous works. So taken as a whole the characters are much more complex than they appear in the book as a standalone work.

[Darth Kavar]

"OMG. Kreia is evil! The big surprise!!!!"

 

It wasn't ever meant to be a surprise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then why do the dialog options to choose from sound like no matter what -> the Exile had no idea Kreia was evil and didn't expect it even a bit?

[Burpmaster]

I think if Obsidian had been give one more month to make some important cutscenes for the endgame, this poll would have shown different results.

 

Sadly LA pulled off an EA(remember Westwood Studios?) for this game.

[Guest Fishboot]

K1 was a somewhat "light" but solidly constructed RPG (not light as in mood, but as in weight). A lot of its success can be attributed to it being a SW-licensed game that wasn't atrocious right when the films were convincing everyone SW couldn't be saved. K2 began with much more heft and was just "bigger" all around - more dynamic impact on the galaxy (I thought the concept of Telos as the keystone of progress was brilliant), bigger villains, more intense relationships with (some) sidekicks - but in the end a lot of the good was ruined by the terrible deformities of the game, both in storyline and quality control, compounded with an obviously uncooked endgame.

 

I'd have to vote K1, even thought K2 had more potential and might be superior after the modders finish it.

[Uldin]

Okay just wanna add one more thing...

 

KOTOR3 needs and must have a new game engine... better graphics.

 

And like many of you would agree; A MORE THOUGHT OUT AND COMPLETE STORY!

[dufflover]

KOTOR3 needs and must have a new game engine... better graphics.

I'm pretty sure it was never the plan to use the same engine for KotOR 3, so should e no worries there (except for people like me with crap computers and no money)

 

And like many of you would agree; A MORE THOUGHT OUT AND COMPLETE STORY!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the KotOR 2 story had been fully mapped out but not enough time, and so as a consequence, we have the cut content stuff and lots of small cuts here and there which made the side quests seem really shallow and the end incomplete.

[JamieKirby]

Kotor I was far better, but it was more well done and not rushed as Kotor II was.

[Darth Abomination]

I prefer KOTOR1 because the story was original, in Sith Lords, they merely changed the Star Maps to Jedi Masters and took away the twist.