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KOTOR or KOTOR2  

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  1. 1. KOTOR or KOTOR2

    • KOTOR
      148
    • KOTORII
      88


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I prefer KOTOR1 because the story was original, in Sith Lords, they merely changed the Star Maps to Jedi Masters and took away the twist.

It did feel like that, didn't it? I guess the argument would be that KotOR2 had deeper characters and an influence system to interact with them better. Well, that was the plan, I'm sure. :blink:

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I prefer KOTOR1 because the story was original, in Sith Lords, they merely changed the Star Maps to Jedi Masters and took away the twist.

 

but that is the underlying formula that I think you will continue to see:

 

* get 4 clues

* endgame is triggered after you have the 4th clue

 

one way to make it less predicatable is to keep the 4 clue thing but have more than 4 worlds you can navigate to (in addition to the introductory worlds, obviously). the location of the 4 clues changes every time....but it is not a wasted trip if you end up on a "non-clue" world because there are always sidquests to do and unique merchants to visit.

 

I realize that creating the worlds is probably the most time-consuming aspect of this but one can dream anyway.

 

MORE REPLAYABILITY!!!

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I prefer KOTOR1 because the story was original, in Sith Lords, they merely changed the Star Maps to Jedi Masters and took away the twist.

 

but that is the underlying formula that I think you will continue to see:

 

* get 4 clues

* endgame is triggered after you have the 4th clue

 

one way to make it less predicatable is to keep the 4 clue thing but have more than 4 worlds you can navigate to (in addition to the introductory worlds, obviously). the location of the 4 clues changes every time....but it is not a wasted trip if you end up on a "non-clue" world because there are always sidquests to do and unique merchants to visit.

 

I realize that creating the worlds is probably the most time-consuming aspect of this but one can dream anyway.

 

MORE REPLAYABILITY!!!

Amen. :devil:

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There is a world of difference. Star Maps you just clicked on and that was it. In NwN you just collected and that was it. KOTOR II added depth by adding depth to the 4 things. It wasnt just a case of click the Jedi (except for the dead one) there was meaningful interaction there especially in view of your banishment and how you react to them. Vrook even if you were LS well lets just say he was a realy test of your self control. Very different prospect indeed from clicking on a static object and getting your next puzzle piece.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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There is a world of difference. Star Maps you just clicked on and that was it. In NwN you just collected and that was it. KOTOR II added depth by adding depth to the 4 things. It wasnt just a case of click the Jedi (except for the dead one) there was meaningful interaction there especially in view of your banishment and how you react to them. Vrook even if you were LS well lets just say he was a realy test of your self control. Very different prospect indeed from clicking on a static object and getting your next puzzle piece.

Ooooooooo but the star maps were pretty.

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The story was faster paced in KOTOR II, which I liked. Although there were some areas that dragged because, for me it seemed too similar to the first one. As previously stated: find/collect four things or people, then a linear sprint to the finish line. The graphics looked dated as well. The story was more interesting, but ultimately was marred by little payoff in the finale.

 

For those who played KOTOR I, having to go to some of the same planets again was boring. If we had to go to those places to tie loose ends, then cutscenes would have been fine with me. Let's move on to new worlds, or at the very least new areas of old ones.

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Anybody here Jackie Chan Adventures (ending cartoon series) fans? One reason for the ending was that every season was different but followed the same pattern of travelling around world and picking up or doing a particular task/item, depending on the theme the series was on (ie, it got boring).

So for me, the idea of travelling around looking for something was familiar - not boring, but I was disappointed when even in LS, it didn't really amount to anything

they all get zapped, no Jedi/Sith showdown or anything

.

KotOR is about travelling with a party doing stuff so I when it comes to the task, maybe they should change it so it's a bit like an open Star Trek Final Unity (v. old game). In that, rather than finding pieces to solve a puzzle, it's more like following the clues/trails to solve the puzzle, but you were free to go anywhere (in space) as well.

So the idea I'm just floating is that you have like 8 to 10 planets (lots of work, I know), and you can go to any of them if you want, but in terms of the main story only 2 or 3 planets are useful at the current stage of story, and after that, the clues will lead to the other planets or even back to old visited ones. It would take a lot of storyboard planning work to design lots and lots of scenarios for it to not seem linear so LucasArts would need some patience - I'm guessing we picked up some after seeing what happened to K2.

It's all a bit of rough sketch at the moment but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

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Anybody here Jackie Chan Adventures (ending cartoon series) fans? One reason for the ending was that every season was different but followed the same pattern of travelling around world and picking up or doing a particular task/item, depending on the theme the series was on (ie, it got boring).

So for me, the idea of travelling around looking for something was familiar - not boring, but I was disappointed when even in LS, it didn't really amount to anything

they all get zapped, no Jedi/Sith showdown or anything

.

KotOR is about travelling with a party doing stuff so I when it comes to the task, maybe they should change it so it's a bit like an open Star Trek Final Unity (v. old game). In that, rather than finding pieces to solve a puzzle, it's more like following the clues/trails to solve the puzzle.

So the idea I'm just floating is that you have like 8 to 10 planets (lots of work, I know), and you can go to any of them if you want, but in terms of the main story only 2 or 3 planets are useful at the current stage of story, and after that, the clues will lead to the other planets or even back to old visited ones.

It's all a bit of rough sketch at the moment but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

 

I wouldnt call myself a fan but I've seen it enough to know whats going on. It's not about the collecting but rather about what happens during the collecting. Each item they collect does something, it has a consequence much like when you talk to the Jedi, what ultimately happens to them isnt relevent because you dont control fate the only relevant part is the interactions between them and you. There was a lot more to Jackie Chan adventures than just collecting 12 Talismans , at the core you had the big bad evil looking for resurection, the fact that the talismans did something to make you more than that what you were, and the temptations that went with it etc. Self discovery etc. So even if you have 100 things to collect click on it's still not going to add as much as if you had 4 or 5 that were much more more than simple collectables/clickables.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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I when it comes to the task, maybe they should change it so it's a bit like an open Star Trek Final Unity (v. old game). In that, rather than finding pieces to solve a puzzle, it's more like following the clues/trails to solve the puzzle, but you were free to go anywhere (in space) as well.

So the idea I'm just floating is that you have like 8 to 10 planets (lots of work, I know), and you can go to any of them if you want, but in terms of the main story only 2 or 3 planets are useful at the current stage of story, and after that, the clues will lead to the other planets or even back to old visited ones. It would take a lot of storyboard planning work to design lots and lots of scenarios for it to not seem linear so LucasArts would need some patience.

 

Sounds a lot like Fallout, with planets taking the place of the Fallout cities/towns (Or if taken to an extreme, to the Bethesda RPG format of huge world with tiny main quest). I think the Fallout approach wouldn't work that well for the KotOR idiom (maybe I should say wouldn't be necessary) because KotOR is mostly about the characters rather than the world - Fallout is almost about the towns/cities themselves. Heck, they get more of the ending than the PC. In KotOR the quests can be anywhere, since the game is about how the sidekicks REACT to the quests and the PC while doing them.

 

I didn't feel like the "Intro - Planet hopping - Endgame" structure of K2 was a ripoff, I just thought they were conciously mimicking the structure of the previous game to keep the KoTOR feel. I like the planet hopping part because each planet usually amounts to a "closed" questing zone, meaning the quests of each planet aren't usually to interconnected to those of other planets - which keeps the game from overwhelming you with quests and gives you a nice sense of completeness when you "finish" each planet.

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I didn't feel like the "Intro - Planet hopping - Endgame" structure of K2 was a ripoff, I just thought they were conciously mimicking the structure of the previous game to keep the KoTOR feel. I like the planet hopping part because each planet usually amounts to a "closed" questing zone, meaning the quests of each planet aren't usually to interconnected to those of other planets - which keeps the game from overwhelming you with quests and gives you a nice sense of completeness when you "finish" each planet.

I can see your point, but I would have liked to have many more worlds, filled with many more inconsequential NPCs (for conversing with or killing). Local gossip could fill the dialogue baloons.

 

I think the quests-contained-within-each-world idea does make for a simpler game, but I think it was too simple. All you need to do is have a hint system in place, so there is either random conversations that provide a hint to solve a quest the PC has been "stuck" on for a while (i.e. no progress), or even a direct Q&A type hint, with answers from riddles to street directions. That's not a part of the game.

 

I felt the game was too linear, too limited. One of the aspects of the first KotOR game was the incidental sidequests; the Trandoshans and secret assassins guild, for example. I felt that the first game was a "denser" RPG while the sequel tried to be bigger, but with less in it. Like a cheap movie, where every character on screen has a speaking part and is involved with the plot to some extent.

 

It can't be that difficult to have lots of worlds -- even if they are not as detailed in graphics. I felt that K2 had made an effort to create "distance" in the game zones, so that the PC had to traverse across the map several times, through circuitous routes, sometimes, just to complete a simple fed-ex mission. But that just becomes tiresome after a while. What is fun is to go exploring without an absolute need to do so, and to find something interesting. (Even if it isn't "ph4t 100t", just some sort of hint or oblique reference to the central plot.)

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I think the quests-contained-within-each-world idea does make for a simpler game, but I think it was too simple. All you need to do is have a hint system in place, so there is either random conversations that provide a hint to solve a quest the PC has been "stuck" on for a while (i.e. no progress), or even a direct Q&A type hint, with answers from riddles to street directions. That's not a part of the game.

 

I felt the game was too linear, too limited. One of the aspects of the first KotOR game was the incidental sidequests; the Trandoshans and secret assassins guild, for example. I felt that the first game was a "denser" RPG while the sequel tried to be bigger, but with less in it. Like a cheap movie, where every character on screen has a speaking part and is involved with the plot to some extent.

 

You're right - I think the most dense planet in K2 was still pretty porous (NS) and two of them were barely there (D and especially K). I haven't played K1 in a while so I don't remember enough to compare the two, but K2 was definitely not bristling with quests.

 

That doesn't change my opinion about liking the "planet = closed package of quests" system - you could end up with something like Morrowind (which I also like a lot, but in a different way), where you run around getting quests willy-nilly and when you're travelling around you just kind of go through your journal looking for stuff you can do while around there - it really breaks any sense of involvement you have with those quests and really kills any impression of urgency.

 

"Hmm, in my journal it seems like a couple of months ago I was given an order by the god of insanity to kill a certain monster with a dinner fork... I'll get around to it when I'm in that part of town, whatever, I'm sure the god of insanity didn't put me on a timetable."

 

In K1+K2 I rarely even need to check my journal - all of the quests on a planet can usually fit in my brain, which I think really helps immersion even if it has a cost to freedom. In that context you don't need a hint system, because you're limiting the field of solutions to something reasonable - just that one planet, meaning some mapscreens and a few dozen NPCs. Obviously it's a matter of taste, but I don't think it's something simple like "complex and open-ended = unqualified good" (not that you're saying that).

 

What is fun is to go exploring without an absolute need to do so, and to find something interesting. (Even if it isn't "ph4t 100t", just some sort of hint or oblique reference to the central plot.)

 

You sound like a Bethesda fan, too. :)

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"Hmm, in my journal it seems like a couple of months ago I was given an order by the god of insanity to kill a certain monster with a dinner fork...

 

not just any fork, THE FORK OF HORRIPILATION!!! (w00t)

 

but yeah, korriban was pretty pathetic quest-wise

nar shadda was the only quest-intensive planet in kotor2 (dantooine and dxun had a few, but nowhere near as much)

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You're right - I think the most dense planet in K2 was still pretty porous (NS) and two of them were barely there (D and especially K). I haven't played K1 in a while so I don't remember enough to compare the two, but K2 was definitely not bristling with quests.

 

That doesn't change my opinion about liking the "planet = closed package of quests" system - you could end up with something like Morrowind (which I also like a lot, but in a different way), where you run around getting quests willy-nilly and when you're travelling around you just kind of go through your journal looking for stuff you can do while around there - it really breaks any sense of involvement you have with those quests and really kills any impression of urgency.

 

"Hmm, in my journal it seems like a couple of months ago I was given an order by the god of insanity to kill a certain monster with a dinner fork... I'll get around to it when I'm in that part of town, whatever, I'm sure the god of insanity didn't put me on a timetable."

 

In K1+K2 I rarely even need to check my journal - all of the quests on a planet can usually fit in my brain, which I think really helps immersion even if it has a cost to freedom. In that context you don't need a hint system, because you're limiting the field of solutions to something reasonable - just that one planet, meaning some mapscreens and a few dozen NPCs. Obviously it's a matter of taste, but I don't think it's something simple like "complex and open-ended = unqualified good" (not that you're saying that).

What is fun is to go exploring without an absolute need to do so, and to find something interesting. (Even if it isn't "ph4t 100t", just some sort of hint or oblique reference to the central plot.)

You sound like a Bethesda fan, too. :)

Yep, I wouldn't be angry if the quests were limited to one planet -- even the planet that they originated from (of course there was the main "non-quest" to find the Jedi Council members; they were on different planets :blink: ); I agree that Morrowind was faulty for that: there were too many quests there. The other problem with Morrowind, aside from the plethora of fed-ex missions, was the voluminous and bland dialogue. Counting the type marks on the Porsche Curves of the Le Mans during the 24 hour race is a quest, but not one I would want to do; "complex and open-ended = unqualified good" is certainly not true!

 

I really enjoyed wondering around the K1 universe; I was actually expecting K2 to be K1 with more, denser worlds.

... nar shadda was the only quest-intensive planet in kotor2 (dantooine and dxun had a few, but nowhere near as much)

Dxun was almost an exact duplicate of the underworld of Kashyyyk, with more illumination.

Nar Shadarr was a great idea that again fell down due to poor implementation. But I prefered it to all the other worlds.

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When it comes to the start of planet hopping it depends on what information the player wants to know. Like at the start of the KotOR games your mission is set and never changes, where as in a developing story, it won't feel repetitive with "3 down, 2 to go".

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Until the oh-dear-god-WHY-did-I-get-dropped-into-an-FPS ending, I was of the opinion that K2 was superior to K1 in pretty much all ways. I loved the upgrade and influence systems. I loved it that by the end, the Obsidian tweaks to the combat animations made it look like my damned PC was dancing, not fighting. I loved it that most, if not all, of the characters in the story, including mine, were pretty gray when it came to past actions. I loved it that the central conceit was about choice. I loved it that I could at least somewhat roleplay a Neutral Good/Chaotic Good, rather than a Jedi-boot-licking Lawful Good like you had to to go lightside in K1--I like a little sass in my characters, thank you very much. HOWEVER (and it's a doozy)....

 

Not a whit of it paid off. I spent the game gaining influence and coaxing NPCs' backstories out of them, only to have them fall completely out of the game as of the meeting with the three Masters on Dantooine. All the choices I'd made to help/harm didn't matter, and I got to make no choice about how to handle Kreia/Sion. I spent the game modding the crap out of everyone's stuff (or at least my favored Jedi Superfriends), only to... See above. K2 was an abominable disappointment.

 

And for all that the plotline of K1 may have been linear and simplistic, the writers at BioWare do seem to understand the concept of setup and payoff. And they also understand closure--character revelations having ramifications not just for the PC, but for the members of the party (whether or not you've detected them a mile out). The ending of a game makes or breaks for me, so until the blessed modders finish the ending restoration on K2, K1 wins by a landslide.

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When it comes to the start of planet hopping it depends on what information the player wants to know. Like at the start of the KotOR games your mission is set and never changes, where as in a developing story, it won't feel repetitive with "3 down, 2 to go".

Yeah, I would have liked this to be some sort of random five out of eight planets, or something, where you have to find clues as to what planets to travel to on each of the other planets, too.

 

That way it's not just "go planet, kill everyone whilst investigating every corner, then repeat". You actually have to think and plan and do a bit of detective work. The story of K2 wasn't in and of itself interesting enough, nor told in a compelling enough way, for it to captivate the audience and impel us towards the exciting conclusion.

 

It was banality dressed up as sublime.

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It's sort of funny how it works out; when I play KotOR I, I miss TSL. When I play TSL, I miss KotOR I.

 

For all that it gets criticised, for all its problems, I like the influence system. I like the idea that the things you say matter to those around you, that you can make them like you more or less. Even just having the points, corresponding to negative or positive reactions, of course, gives the NPC's a little more life.

But at times - well, most of the time, actually - the influence system effectively trivialized social interaction by making it a game of 'how can I make them talk to me?" which is, actually, a bit different from, "How can I make them trust me?" People are actually fairly open about talking to stranger's, in real life, but in K2 no one would dare talk about the weather unless they agreed with your decisions and sides taken for the political situation in Onderon. If you want them to talk about the weather, and much as it helps moral ambiguity, it hurts the game in how much less you are given to care about your fellow NPC's. Perhaps the influence system would've worked better in a longer game? It just seemed like there wasn't enough time for you to get to know your party members, and that was one of my favorite things in the first game.

 

When I play K1, I miss T3's buzzing around and fixing things on the Ebon Hawk, I miss Bao Dur's tinkering with the droids, I miss Kreia's pestering, and I just miss all the people from the second cast. When I play K2, I wish I could just sit down and talk with one of my NPC follower's, but it really just becomes a burden to even try, so I miss K1. The influence system really made Kreia come alive; with how much she had to say, you were constantly learning more from her and about her, and just about every single effort to earn her favor was well-rewarded. It just didn't work that well with the other character's - in particular, Atton rand, Handmaiden, Bao-dur, and to a certain extent, the droids.

 

KotOR I was a little formulaic, and your interactions with them had nothing to do with what you actually did with them. But couldn't there be a combination of both? Of being able to small-talk, and being able to share experiences on a deeper level?

 

I only hope NWN 2 doesn't fall into the same trap KotOR2 did.

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I went with #1 by far

 

I think the storylines of both were strong, but the twist of #1 is pretty much unmatched. Don't get me wrong. #2 was a very very strong game. Crystals, bulilding your own saber, force powers, the list goes on. It was strong in those areas, but in the storyline, I felt it was lacking. Both great games, both providing hours of gameplay.

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The story would have been better if Kreia's motives were given more depth. Perhaps she lost someone she loved... a daughter, a friend, a lover? In doing research... or out of blind grief, she comes to believe that

The Force

is to blame for his or her death. That would have made more sense to me. As it is, I understand why she dislikes

the idea it has a will of its own

... but to hate it to the degree she wants to destroy it? You're going to have to give her a better motive than that for me to buy it.

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The only reason Kreia wants revenge is because no one wants the old hag.

 

She was the head of the jedi Libary, she got banished for being Reven's master. She even got her force surpressed by the masters.

 

So Kreai went off to join the Sith, but Sion and NIhilius were both getting ****ed that Kreia wasn't doing anything against the jedi so they took things into their own hands and exiled Kreia out.

 

Ever since Kreia just wants to end the force period because she's a crazy old hag.

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The story would have been better if Kreia's motives were given more depth.  Perhaps she lost someone she loved... a daughter, a friend, a lover?  In doing research... or out of blind grief, she comes to believe that

The Force

is to blame for his or her death.  That would have made more sense to me.  As it is, I understand why she dislikes

the idea it has a will of its own

... but to hate it to the degree she wants to destroy it?  You're going to have to give her a better motive than that for me to buy it.

 

It's simple. If the force has it's own will then it's manipulated her from the start. She had no real choices and all her suffering is down to the force and you cant deny that indeed she has suffered.

 

To understand why look at the last line of the Sith code.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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