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KOTOR or KOTOR2  

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  1. 1. KOTOR or KOTOR2

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    • KOTORII
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wait just a sec...let me get this strait.....Shadow, you thin that killing a lot of people slowly one by one for just the fun of it is more evil than killing God??

 

By killing god you mean destroying the force that holds everyone to destiny of slavery ? I dont even consider that evil.

It's the side effect of the billions that would die as a result that would cause me to pause.

 

Killing for no reason beyond personal amusement is about as low as it gets.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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The force doesn't enslave anyone nor does it kill people. People kill people. Next you are gonna blame guns.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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The force doesn't enslave anyone nor does it kill people. People kill people. Next you are gonna blame guns.

 

Without guns you couldnt shoot people... A gun has to exist in order for it to be possible to shoot someone.

 

You dont actually have any proof that the force dosnt enslave people. Destiny is enslavement and SW is all about destiny.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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The force doesn't enslave anyone nor does it kill people. People kill people. Next you are gonna blame guns.

But Kreia is the One True Prophet! She knows the ultimate truth, that the Force is controlling the Force Sensitives of the universe to fulfil its own secret agenda: holding out the illusion of free will when secretly seeking its own hidden self-aggrandizement.

 

The Anti-Force Forces will take up Kreia's banner, hold the Standard high and fight to the end of the Force!

OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS

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OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT

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"Without guns you couldnt shoot people... A gun has to exist in order for it to be possible to shoot someone."

 

Who said anything about shooting? I said killing. You don't need guns to kill people. Afterall, people have been killing each other ages before a gun ever existed. Nice try; though.

 

 

"You dont actually have any proof that the force dosnt enslave people. Destiny is enslavement and SW is all about destiny."

 

When making an accusation; you need proof. Kreia accused the force of being a slaver yet offered no proof. The only proof offered is the poor judgement of human beings. And, no, destiny is not about enslavement. Afterall, destiny is usually brought on by someone's choices. People read too much into detsiny. Destiny is not about being forced to do anything. It may have been 'destiny' for Anakin to turn to the Dark Side; but let's not pretend that it wans't his choice to do so. He made his chocies out of his own free will. He chose to murder children, and commit his other evil acts.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Who said anything about shooting? I said killing. You don't need guns to kill people. Afterall, people have been killing each other ages before a gun ever existed. Nice try; though.

 

 

"You dont actually have any proof that the force dosnt enslave people. Destiny is enslavement and SW is all about destiny."

 

When making an accusation; you need proof. Kreia accused the force of being a slaver yet offered no proof. The only proof offered is the poor judgement of human beings. And, no, destiny is not about enslavement. Afterall, destiny is usually brought on by someone's choices. People read too much into detsiny. Destiny is not about being forced to do anything. It may have been 'destiny' for Anakin to turn to the Dark Side; but let's not pretend that it wans't his choice to do so. He made his chocies out of his own free will. He chose to murder children, and commit his other evil acts.

 

One leads to the other it's clear enough if you know how a gun works. No force means no Jedi or Sith and no force powers.

 

Where on earth did you get that idea... Kreia dosnt need to prove anything she only needs the will and the means to do what she intends. It's not a court of law. People who dont agree with her , she removes.

 

If he was destined to be Darth Vader and balance the force then choice dosnt come into it. It was going to happen and his actions were meaningless. Nothing more than a puppet of the force whether or not he realised it. Kreias a good deal smarter than Anakin doubt he would ever figure out he was being played since he couldnt even see it close up.

 

Destiny removes choice, thats why it's destiny.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Where on earth did you get that idea... Kreia dosnt need to prove anything she only needs the will and the means to do what she intends. It's not a court of law. People who dont agree with her , she removes.

 

 

Sorry was in another thread missed stuff lol.

 

above quote...sounds pretty evil to me.

 

By killing "God" as it were (the force) you would be depriving millions of of people of free choice. The force would no long touch anyone but obviousely somthing that exsisted and leaving those touched by the force helpless in a galaxy they could no longer funtion in (worse than killing anyone is leaving them in suffering..to be honest your plesure killer isn't near as evil as Kreia.)

 

You see kreia didn't slowly kill the people but she intended to take away everything that was dear to them out of revenge for having it taken away from her.

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Sorry was in another thread missed stuff lol.

 

above quote...sounds pretty evil to me.

 

By killing "God" as it were (the force) you would be depriving millions of of people of free choice. The force would no long touch anyone but obviousely somthing that exsisted and leaving those touched by the force helpless in a galaxy they could no longer funtion in (worse than killing anyone is leaving them in suffering..to be honest your plesure killer isn't near as evil as Kreia.)

 

You see kreia didn't slowly kill the people but she intended to take away everything that was dear to them out of revenge for having it taken away from her.

 

It depends on your perspective.

 

Actually by killing god you are granting those that remain a life free of destiny in otherwords a life of free choice. Those that survived could function. You(the exile) and she were proof of that.

 

Or she intended to free them from slavery ,again it depends on your point of view.

 

When it comes to destiny ignorance is most definately bliss.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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she said on Telos that Jedi can't make it where normal....beings lol...can.

 

She wished the total destruction of the force which included all jedi. She wanted vengence against the force. She made her choices and suffered due to them but she did what anyone (even in real life) would do...found someone to blame in her eyes she thought the force made her fall and suffer as she did..she was a coward and the real irony is that she in all her glory, all her power, and all her streath...was the least wise of all the NPCs...she was lost in her own grief.

 

 

Another thought after typing that lol.

 

She spoke many times of having a war with your past but another interesting irony is that her..being as powerful as she was..could control and confuse and manipulate like she could..but she couldn't do what every other ally could..force or no Light or Dark she could not over come her past...she could never face...and accept her past choices...one moral the game hits pretty hard...she was the preacher that didn't practice what she preached.

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she said on Telos that Jedi can't make it where normal....beings lol...can.

 

She wished the total destruction of the force which included all jedi. She wanted vengence against the force. She made her choices and suffered due to them but she did what anyone (even in real life) would do...found someone to blame in her eyes she thought the force made her fall and suffer as she did..she was a coward and the real irony is that she in all her glory, all her power, and all her streath...was the least wise of all the NPCs...she was lost in her own grief.

 

I think she said something like "even you are more capable than a Jedi" to Atton. When they were talking about being cut off from the force. But since both she and the Exile "made it" it's obviously not universal and you can relearn to do things without the force.

 

Well if she was right and the force had destined her for that role shes quite justified in being peeved. I'm sure you would be peeved if you came to the realisation some higher power had given you a sucky destiny just so you could be part of a greater puzzle.

 

Thats the point you cant seem to grasp. You say "She made her choices" but if she was correct and certainly from her view , they were not her choices at all but rather those imposed by the force since destiny bound her to a particular path.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Even without the Force there would stil, be wars. There would be suffering. Removing the force would not change that. The Force does not cause these things; people cause these things.

 

And, no, destiny is not about prechoosing. Anakin made choices that led to his downfall. His poor choices were forseen; not literally predestined. It was known he would make certain choices; not forced to do certain things.

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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she could never face...and accept her past choices...one moral the game hits pretty hard...she was the preacher that didn't practice what she preached.

 

Oh she had no trouble facing them. As for accepting them, well they were not her choices, she was manipulated by the force to play a particular part. Thats why she planned to wipe it out once and for all.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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Sorry for reposting this i edited..didn't know i was at the bottom of page 4 lol.

 

Another thought after typing that lol.

 

She spoke many times of having a war with your past but another interesting irony is that her..being as powerful as she was..could control and confuse and manipulate like she could..but she couldn't do what every other ally could..force or no Light or Dark she could not over come her past...she could never face...and accept her past choices...one moral the game hits pretty hard...she was the preacher that didn't practice what she preached.

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Even without the Force there would stil, be wars. There would be suffering. Removing the force would not change that. The Force does not cause these things; people cause these things.

 

And, no, destiny is not about prechoosing. Anakin made choices that led to his downfall. His poor choices were forseen; not literally predestined. It was known he would make certain choices; not forced to do certain things.

 

Quite likely but there would be no higher power pulling your strings.

 

Destiny.

 

The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.

A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control:

 

In other words Anakin was screwed from the start puppet of the force whether or not he realised it.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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lol she never faced them..had she faced them she would accept the choices she made and accepted who she was as her own person instead she through all her choices on the force so as to cop-out and blame her mistakes on somthing other than her...she is a Post Atris and you thnk Atris could ever admit to being wrong about anything?

 

The force is like God in pretty much every way (save the force powers ofcourse lol) God knows everything to the end of time knows every turn in every path and if he so choose he can present anwsers to hard choices...this is not predestiny.

 

Force is the same way...knows what will come knows the choices that will be made that doesn't mean the choice wasn't Kreia's or whomevers to start with.

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Only because he was prone to making poor choices.

 

Your really not grasping this destiny thing are you. Him becoming Darth Vader was nothing to do with his poor choices. His poor choices were required in order for him to fulfil his destiny and as such were not even choices since the outcome was already known.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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lol she never faced them..had she faced them she would accept the choices she made and accepted who she was as her own person instead she through all her choices on the force so as to cop-out and blame her mistakes on somthing other than her...she is a Post Atris and you thnk Atris could ever admit to being wrong about anything?

 

The force is like God in pretty much every way (save the force powers ofcourse lol) God knows everything to the end of time knows every turn in every path and if he so choose he can present anwsers to hard choices...this is not predestiny.

 

Force is the same way...knows what will come knows the choices that will be made that doesn't mean the choice wasn't Kreia's or whomevers to start with.

 

Except she wasnt her own person , she was a puppet of the force.

 

Unless you can actually prove that god exists then thats all twaddle since you dont know what god is or even if there is one.

 

Go read the defintion of destiny please.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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wow you guys type fast lol.

 

so what (if Kreia was right) was Ani's detiny? To go dark side or as you said "screwed from the start" or to kill the Empy?

 

Wanna know how "Destiny" works? Ani made his own choice to be evil..the force (as a will possesing living being) forsaw the danger of such a choice and knowing how we chose it presented a new choice...Luke was born the one thing in all that galaxy that made Vader choose to kill Emp the force has a will yes but never removes free will...only gives you reason to go one way or another thats not destiny thats simple planing...Force does not "cause" events only presents other factors.

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wow you guys type fast lol.

 

so what (if Kreia was right) was Ani's detiny? To go dark side or as you said "screwed from the start" or to kill the Empy?

 

Wanna know how "Destiny" works? Ani made his own choice to be evil..the force (as a will possesing living being) forsaw the danger of such a choice and knowing how we chose it presented a new choice...Luke was born the one thing in all that galaxy that made Vader choose to kill Emp the force has a will yes but never removes free will...only gives you reason to go one way or another thats not destiny thats simple planing...Force does not "cause" events only presents other factors.

 

Well in your world destiny works very differently from the accepted definition and I'm going to have to go with the accepted definition here.

 

Really ? Well it was the will of the force that Qui Gon meet with Anakin and thus set the whole thing in motion.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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lol ohh your funny..Destiny is pre-destination first strongly belived by Calven (forget first name at moment) which the Puritans (erarly American settlers) believed which stated...no matter your actions you are pre-determend a St. or sinner. Your actions no matter how noble or deviouse can't change your birth right of St. or sinner; thus, you shall be saved or dambed at birth.

 

Destiny is absense of free will or more simply removal of choice. Meaning you can't escape your futrure you are planned for a spacific role in life be it good, or be it evil.

 

Are you happy now? doesn't help your case much though as the Force could never make a destiny for someone that would inolve killing destiny itself. Such a destiny could never be ; however, the CHOICE is always there to destroy that which oversees your life.

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Destiny is absense of free will or more simply removal of choice. Meaning you can't escape your futrure you are planned for a spacific role in life be it good, or be it evil.

 

Are you happy now? doesn't help your case much though as the Force could never make a destiny for someone that would inolve killing destiny itself. Such a destiny could never be ; however, the CHOICE is always there to destroy that which oversees your life.

 

Pretty sure the Greeks predate the puritans :(

 

In other words Kreia isnt responsible for her actions but whatever set out her specific role, in this case the force is.

 

Actually it more or less proves my case :p

 

You just contradicted yourself if you cant kill the force then you dont have a choice just the illusion of choice like Anakin who thinks they have free will but dont. The fact that Kreia is destined to fail is the last cruel twist of fate and thats what she realises when your standing above the Trayus core.

 

Because of the circumstances of being outside of the force the exile may not have been subject to fate and perhaps thats what Kreia was looking for.

I have to agree with Volourn.  Bioware is pretty much dead now.  Deals like this kills development studios.

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When did I contridict myself? I said if the force has a destiny (meaning Kreia is right) then it could never allow a destiny to be one that destroys it's self. (thus kreia can't be doing what she's doing)

 

Also what I sad was If choice is real (thus kreia is wrong) than you could make the choice to destroy the force..which kreia has come to depend on. (Kreia could do what she's doing)

 

What your suggesting is a vaccum that swallows it's self.

 

 

Also if Kreia needed you to have free will (you being disconected from the force as you say) then destiny could not account for Kreia's failling as you would not be a facter thus the first still holds destiny can't destroy it's self.

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KOTOR2 was as black, and white as it gets and there were no surprises yet you were forced to travel with kreia despite knwoing she was as evil as she come. You did not have to think in KOTOR at all. Everything was handed to you on a golden platter.

 

I think part of the problem is that you were FORCED to travel with her. They could have still used her in a very prominent role without you carting her around.

 

Your Force training could have been a patchwork from a variety of sources (i.e. the Ithorian priest on Telos, holocrons, and more stuff from the 3 Masters, etc). Forcing Kreia on you to the extent that they did was REALLY BAD.

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