to all who prefer kotor 1 story

[darknesslord]

only one question, how are you doing this? I mean kotor 1 story was nothing, simply nothing, a stupid vilain, a stupid team (a teenage twilek with an attitude, a stupide jedi, an even more stupid jedi, an old padawan , a republic pilot with a personallity complex, a frendly wookie who have as much charism than a rock, a droid that do nothing, and one that is funny but good to nothing, oh and canderous)

 

second thing, if you take kotor 2 storyline, even tho it's unfinished and all, you can still make a really big story, with darkness, sadness, happyness sometime ,tho rarely, the story's complicated and all. In kotor 1 , you got the all cliche story about a nobody who is actually a hero and will kill the bad guy who is stupid and want nothing but conquer the galaxy for no reasons. Along the way, you'll meet a bunch a 2 cm deep caracters, who take nothing seriously, and all the citizen who donc even seem to realize that there's a war going on. Oh the sith will conquer us all, but hey that's okay, were happy.

 

and to all those who say that playing as revan was great because he was a very deep caracter..... just remember what revan was before kotor 2. A nowhere sith lord who did what he did for who know why, and got capture, than got all powerful again to beat the vilain........ wow...... deeeeeeep

 

obsidian have done a great thing of redoing kotor 1 storyline in their game, it's less stupid like that

anyway, feel free to add more things

[Taran'atar]

Given your poor spelling and grammar, as well as your obviously limited vocabulary, I'm not inclined to give your opinion any weight at all. Why should I believe that you know what you're talking about if you don't know how to talk (figuratively speaking)?

[Jediphile]

Yes, KotOR2 is bigger, deeper... except for a few problems:

 

1. It's not finished - there are hordes and hordes of plots left hanging.

 

2. The cast isn't really any more interesting than in the first. Kreia is about the coolest character, but then Jolee was just as complex in the first game. HK-47 is still interesting, but he was in both games... Bastila and Handmaiden seem to share many... issues. The most interesting change is probably Visas, who is indeed more interesting and deep than Juhani was. You don't get to know her as well as Juhani, though.

 

3. You actually get to know who you're playing in KotOR1. I still don't feel I know the character I was playing KotOR2 even after finishing the game... You might feel different, but I had great difficulty identifying with the Exile since the game wouldn't let me know him.

 

4. Point 1 above means that you lack a certain sense of accomplishment after finishing KotOR2. I definitely got my payoff in the first game. Yes, KotOR2 has a richer story, but I only know that because I visit this forum and listen to the missing sound-files and read about the removed plots - not because I played the game.

 

5. As with all sequels, the original is always more, well, original... KotOR2 is an improvement in many respects within the actual game, but it doesn't feel as fresh as KotOR1, and there are many character from the first games I miss or recurring characters that I dislike or just find annoying. The most annoying thing in KotOR2 is probably how it keeps circling around Revan without ever letting us make any real discoveries of what happened to him.

[dufflover]

What's wrong with a predictable storyline (did you suspect the K1 Revan deal?), and the classic kill the baddie and save or destroy the galaxy. What's so stupid about that?

There are actually very few games which let you do this. The only other one which comes to mind for me is Jedi Knight.

 

if you take kotor 2 storyline, even tho it's unfinished and all

Exactly....

with darkness, sadness, happyness sometime ,tho rarely, the story's complicated and all.

Did you by anychance play all the combo's in K1 LS/DS/Male/Female and do the sidequests? Did you do the Bastila romance sidequest? Don't you find it unfortunate that Carth tries to save Female/DS Revan to no avail. (I wouldn't say it was 'sad' mind you).

In kotor 1 , you got the all cliche story about a nobody who is actually a hero and will kill the bad guy who is stupid and want nothing but conquer the galaxy for no reasons

Exactly...a bad guy, the Dark Side - strength, power, tyranny and all that.

 

K2 was good, but I liked K1 way more.

 

 

(incase you're wondering, I don't criticise people's good or bad English)

 

[dewaybe2678]

hey guys anyone noticed he missed something bout Revan. Before he became a Sith lord he was a jedi hero.

[nuanil]

Well I hope english isn't the OP's primary language.

 

K1 had a complete, if predictable plot (even though I didn't exactly see the "You are Revan thing coming till right before it was revealed) and honestly the plot is on par with your average "block buster record breaking opening weekend" movie. The last movie that surprised me with a plot twist was the sixth sense.

 

K2 is severely incomplete, you're left with more questions about the characters than when you started. It's still predictable in it's general flow.

 

I wasn't all that surprised about Nihilis "starving" on me due to the conversation with Visas mentioning that his need to feed on the force would wind up starving him, and then later when you discover that you are this walking gravity well for the force, and you're ability to wield the force again is a side effect of having formed these bonds of friendship with you companions (or one sided friendship if you're darkside lol).

 

Sion is revealed to feed on pain very very early in the plot, so it's no surprise that inflicting pain on him would make him stronger (or at the very least be able to regenerate completely).

 

It's no surprise that Kreia was/is Sith. Almost all her influence gains involve you supporting Darkside actions. You have to essentially apologize for every light sided action you do to simply keep from loosin influence.

 

I loved the ability to make the upgrades for your weapons.

 

Bottom line for me was that K1 may have been a simpler story but it was presented very well, and K2 is a better story that would have blown K1 out of the water if Oblivion had had another 6 months at least to polish it up. And a sequel that blows the predascesor out of the water is a good thing IMO.

[dufflover]

And a sequel that blows the predascesor out of the water is a good thing IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true, when you raised that I found it hard to name some sequels which were better than the originals. (granted, I haven't been doing much lately)

 

Well, at least this'll make it easy for a K3 to do - K2 has made it a pushover

[nuanil]

And a sequel that blows the predascesor out of the water is a good thing IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very true, when you raised that I found it hard to name some sequels which were better than the originals. (granted, I haven't been doing much lately)

 

Well, at least this'll make it easy for a K3 to do - K2 has made it a pushover

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Wing Commadner 2 is the first sequel that pops into my head as showing up is predacessor off teh top of my head.

 

Fallout 2 didn't do it, Privateer 2 didn't do it, I-War 2 didn't do it, Baldeur's Gate 2 did do it, but ToB didn't. A lot of the series get better simply because of technology leaps, Mechwarrior for example, oh I know the Space Quest series did really well up till 4, 5 was alright, Police Quest was good for the first 3.

[Saberist]

DL,

 

>>

only one question, how are you doing this? I mean kotor 1 story was nothing, simply nothing, a stupid vilain, a stupid team (a teenage twilek with an attitude, a stupide jedi, an even more stupid jedi, an old padawan , a republic pilot with a personallity complex, a frendly wookie who have as much charism than a rock, a droid that do nothing, and one that is funny but good to nothing, oh and canderous)

>>

 

KOTORs biggest mistake was in following Lucas by playing 'backwards forwards' without any real understanding of Revan as a person or the Mandalorian Wars as the 'opening battle' of the current Sith debacle (or the Sith Hyperspace Wars before that). It's like trying to understand WWII without knowing Hitler. Or the conditions, before during and after, WWI which forged his views.

 

It doesn't help that Malak, as his official replacement, is just another conqueror without HIS OWN story. Something to make you feel guilty about his pain at the last. I mean, I ask you, you're a demigod. Why do you /care/ about the rest of the squalid universe and WHY would you intentionally put yourself into conflict with 'the herd' of society as an alternative to other demigods who could take it all away from you?

 

This makes no sense at all to me. Look at Vandar and Yoda. THOSE are the 'evanesced into true power' focussed ideals that Jedi would want, IMO and the -danger- would be thinking that they would NOT choose to become cloistered or itinerant rather than always being available.

 

>>

second thing, if you take kotor 2 storyline, even tho it's unfinished and all, you can still make a really big story, with darkness, sadness, happyness sometime ,tho rarely, the story's complicated and all. In kotor 1 , you got the all cliche story about a nobody who is actually a hero and will kill the bad guy who is stupid and want nothing but conquer the galaxy for no reasons. Along the way, you'll meet a bunch a 2 cm deep caracters, who take nothing seriously, and all the citizen who donc even seem to realize that there's a war going on. Oh the sith will conquer us all, but hey that's okay, were happy.

>>

 

There are elements of K2 which make me check check my BS meter on a 'forget the hip waders, it's time to man the lifeboats!' basis. As with many decent 'scene based' epics, there is a lot that is said which sounds deep and impressive yet doesn't tie into the adventure dynamic at hand, let alone the endgame. Mystic Blah-Blah'ism from Kreia runs a fine line between Deux Ex Machina and Windows Tutorial at times. While her dominance of the female casting (Visas and The Handmaiden haven't changed their dialogue options in /ages/) offsets a grandma'ism against the pretty tainted flesh in a way that makes my skin crawl a bit (Who wants to be 'bonded' to /that/? ;-)

 

It's one of those things where, if you let the storyteller dazzle you with daftness rather than baffle you with _true brilliance_ you can end up feeling hollow at the end as the story collapses upon it's empty promises rather than substantively comes full circle to answer an unknown question that has been 'hinted rather than hammered at' throughout.

 

Immersed or sceptical, it is the continual story listener's problem when faced with something that doesn't make sense 'but could'. In a game this is further complicated because you are _looking for_ (hoping for actually) clues that make you less of a dolt in terms of survival and alliance issues. K2 does no better than K1 in this, to be honest.

 

>>

And to all those who say that playing as revan was great because he was a very deep character..... just remember what revan was before kotor 2. A nowhere sith lord who did what he did for who know why, and got capture, than got all powerful again to beat the vilain........ wow...... deeeeeeep.

>>

 

I agree, completely though more for 'dramatic' reasons than moral ones. Five Basic Rules rules of decent storytelling:

 

1. It must be generally appealing as a subject.

2. Must Be Logical Within It's Own Melieu.

3. Timing is everything don't try to jockey a dead horse to the finish line.

4. Story Must Never Succumb To Cinematography.

5. Characters Must Never Start Chewing The Scenery.

 

Rule 1 is covered under the general indemnity clause of 'It's Star Wars!'.

 

By the second rule, not much makes sense in K1. Jedi Masters 'knowing' Revan needed to be exploited as a function of regaining himself yet The Force hiding from them the simple vision of the StarForge (or the Starmaps needed to find it) while allowing them to rape a mind. Not logical. Not kind. Ultimately insulting to the Masters 'insight' as much as the lives of the people on Taris who died for seemingly nothing.

 

Indeed, I NEVER found a purpose inherent to all the miniquest's relevance to the War At Hand.

 

You cannot ignore the fact that Bastilla is, in and of herself, A WEAPON. One whose absence would quickly begin to weigh heavily on the Republic as she galavants around the universe acting as some kind of chaperone to Revan. Even given that BaM! is some kind of advanced group telepathy, why is HER 'bond' deeper or more necessary than that of the Jedi Masters who rewrote Revan's mind? She contributes little or nothing to his quests. Just as the other characters are little more than window dressing to gain (back) XP for levels. Something which, in terms of raw slaughter could be achieved in half the time, fighting the Sith directly.

 

Again, it just doesn't seem creditable, except to give the supporting cast a sense of game presence justification through unending 'airtime' filler of an otherwise non-present threat plot.

 

All of which was made massively worse (bordering on farcical) by the ending. Revan as a slayer of Billions with a B now a 'prodigal son returned'? Bwuahahahahahhah! The Republic couldn't afford to let that one slide. And The Order couldn't afford to have their separate status unto themselves be compromised by not protecting him. So you have a Becket and Henry II situation. If he doesn't just 'disappear' on his own, they will Hoffa his behind. Glory is also not something a Jedi would seek or accept and so the entire (ANH cloned) 'celebration' is just...ugly. Indeed, but for Bastie's clumsy 'curtsy', the DS ending equivalent makes more sense.

 

A better alternative would have been having a crushed young man wandering, sightlessly choked up, down a hallway, 'when a pretty hand reached out and grabbed him' . And against a sunset sky we FINALLY got to see that (Campbell's traditional alternative to the Heroic Path) personal salvation mean something more than empty philosophy. As the twosome finally got to on-screen consumate all that supposed passion in a kiss that wasn't yet another memory 'black out'.

 

Timing probably has a lot to do with this in that, like music, if you don't change the bar from 4:4 to 1:4 in terms of 'deliberate skips' in pacing and rythm, there is no sense of unknown expectation to jolt your heart along. And in K1 there are indeed _darn few_ alinear "Ooops, they just flattened or occupied the last starmap planets, we need to come up with an alternate plan!". Instead, everything is entirely predictable once you 'figure out' the Revan mystery. And accept that Bastilla is nothing but a DID (Damsel In Distress) seeking to be dominated by whatever male is handy. Can't press romance if you aren't willing to do the 'before and after' elements of getting to know you. And Bastie as an object of endless rescue and corruption (the Goddess Encounter motif) doesn't stand up as a woman you would WANT a male hero to be chasing. In turn, the 'unending suspense' (kill her, make her the dominant character who has to rescue Revan, /something/) of a linear plotline from A to Z has no missing, shortcut or redirected _obstacle_ (not dumb detour) moments to distract you from their juvenile blundering about with physical attraction-only.

 

No music.

 

Which of course brings us to the clumsily 'divided' terrain scapes (Tatooine especially) and abuse of exotic (but familiar) urban/forest/desert terrain forms to replace story telling altogther. Itself a no-no but one made purely farcical given the LIMITED 2D perspective view embellishment (pure dungeon crawl relic and another 'shared fault' with K2 I might add).

 

Try standing on the roof of Baron's Head Tower in Jedi Knight and looking up at the stars or out at the city. And _understand_ the meaning of full neck tilt, first person,

Scenic Beauty. 'Timing' on Manaan, such as it was, would have likely meant a full TOD sun rotation leading to sunset and 'dark of night' battle that did what they only /suggested/ would happen when Malak finally got round to Golden Horning them.

 

Indeed, the 'panoramic picture' (scene as story) elements of dramatic tale telling were almost ALL relegated to Malak's darker moments and the Ebon Hawk arrival/departure scenes. So that what little background scenery was present was just not worth seeing as a function of 'this is what it really looks like'. FEW habitable planets are likely to be 'all one environment' in total climatologic unity. And isolating quests to nearest-spaceport proximity sucks, bigtime for imparting more than a funhouse sense of quest as travel.

 

K2's Telos Arctic Quest was a little better here. But not much.

 

And K2 is just as guilty as K1 in saying /dumb/ things like "This is the only trading city on the planet because the rest is too wild!" (Onderon: K2). At least Taris' attempt to show me another 'city planet' didn't try to excuse a urban center that didn't fully occupy a single continent. Though it too suffered from LOGIC problems inherent to 'strafing' (NGS) from orbit what a few nukes would do far better to obliterate, once the atomic dampers were destroyed.

 

Short Form: E-Gads people, don't MAKE ME drop immersion by /telling me/ you are too cheap to make it bigger!

 

Such being the leapoff point to a lecture on the stupidity of overvalueing characters to the point that they start chomping on the rest of the surroundings and leaving the 'supporting cast' nothing to say on their own behalf that is relevant to a non self-obsessive (WAR AT HAND) moment. Indeed, everytime you tell me that Revan is such a ruddy bloomin' benevolent despot, 'so terribly misunderstood', I _automatically_ think the opposite: "Cover Up In Progress!".

 

Not of true evil. But of lousy storycrafting.

 

In this case, the conspiracy was that of only having ONE real 'plot twister' by which the character motivations /could/ change. But didn't. Mind you, a hero who was once a villain is kind've on probation so it's not like he can do much but wriggle on the hook but the whole notion that 'cheerleader syndrome' was a /lead in/ to Revan being who he was was just NOT SURPRISING! I mean (raise your hands) how many of you knew it was either You or Bastie from the moment she started spouting off about what a 'sensitive' Closet Revan was after being rescued? All her guff was unsupportable as Jedi Behavior so it HAD to be a red herring coverup to what she was 'really hinting at'.

 

The Do You Want To Be A Millionaire Final Choice being rendered 100% clear from the time they walked into the ruins and I didn't get to see Revan's face. Duhhhhh.

 

How much BETTER a story to have Revan 'come back to himself' after leaving the influence of the Star Forge? Thereby FAKING his own death. Contacting Bastilla (a teenage Padawan first love who was still 'closer than the Council would like') to help him try to right things or at least escape. Only to be nearly real-killed when MALAK, as the 'senior partner' (he certainly looked old enough to be a Master) uncovered his actions?

 

Revan, no matter how gifted, would never be allowed to write his own mission orders (effectively becoming a mix of George Bush and Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf in one person) _at 18_. And if you make him older than that, 8 years of war would make him TOO OLD to be 'pretty and naive'. Which is what the demographic needs to see to feel a sense of shared identity (sales) with.

 

Indeed, why do you think it is that most such tales of adventure come down to (Campbell's Laws) a 'youth forced to bear burden to discover his own strengths' type rite of passage? It's because you can feel pity or sympathy with the INNOCENCE such that you can forgive what a grown adult might be held responsible for.

 

Evil shouldn't need to have exotic circumstances to feel guilt and try for redemption. Sometimes 'goodness just happens too'. Something made easier when you see MALAK as the instigator.

 

At which point it doesn't matter if the 'audience' (player) knows who Revan is. And assumptions of surgical or Force (shape change) alteration get you past all the "Whole galaxy knows what you look like!" impossibility factor of a redeemed Revan /ever/ being accepted by the Jedi and Republic in particular.

 

Imagine sharing the cringe when the mistakes Revan was accredited with _when others told only half the story_ and the cut-scene movie showed the player character 'smiling and nodding' as s/he pretended it didn't hurt. Before the /real/ way it happened was shown (less mystic blah-blah than real life sociology lesson) as a past-recollection?

 

Having said that, the lack of aesthetically pleasing, -young-, character icons (white male anyway) compared to the thug-uglies was only part of the problem for their is nothing like being stuck as a mute without ANY VOICE just /kills/ K1 SOD. And this is a failing of KOTOR 2 as well. Conversations can't happen without a sense of "You and me against the world babe!" co-participancy. And without words to say, the moments where words aren't needed also tend to be flat 'for what hasn't come before'.

 

As a truly /heart rending/ 'love story' could be the source of 'will they make it?' alternative to redemption of power. That was really all a realistic KOTOR could have held out hope for in it's existing plot.

 

Wherein Bastilla and Revan stole private moments and helped prop each other up to the strain of an outward facade 'that no one else must know'. Not only about forbidden love. But about forbidden identity.

 

Paranoia of discovery vs. passion of tender trust being the themic conflict rather than 'how long can we subject the player to endless variations of supporting team rah-rah'ism.

 

Bioware thought they were being clever by having the outsiders do this horn-tooting. But in fact, all's they managed to achieve was deny the CONFLICT (Inner vs. outward, private vs. grand.) by which Character Sympathy MUST be generated. Obsidian has done little better so far (about half done now), IMO. Because they have effeminized the equally 'unknown' exile by subjecting him to endless reiterations of capture, humiliation, manipulation and deceit on the part of females (the most Dark-temptress interesting of which, Visa is just like Bastilla in being utterly subservient to you without a single reason other than 'masterful' domination at the hands of a male...ewwwwh).

 

>>

Obsidian have done a great thing of redoing kotor 1 storyline in their game, it's less stupid like that anyway, feel free to add more things

>>

 

I would not argue that the packaging is better. But it is isolated to basically one or two individual characters (Kreia and Atton) with too much DEM intervention and not enough common sense to defeat the 'conspiracy for conspiracies sake' inertial of a stagnated plot that falls down on it's own pretentions.

 

Indeed, whereas KOTOR had it's problems with trivialism in the presence of an overriding desperate need (interstellar WAR) to find and complete 'greater good' objectives, K2 is at the opposite end of the spectrum wherein the barbarians are thru the gates and the Republic As Rome has already fallen. Thus, ironically, given the new threat has no true desire to take the reins so much as eat the horse, raw. I NEED some clue-in as to who I am. What my actual vs. moral choice 'flaws' are.

 

As I forge myself through my alliances to try and build the personality necessary to understand as much as defeat my enemy.

 

In this, Obsidian's mimicry of the K1 'no powers, half the game spent getting them' sport warring is less appreciated than the few and far between (Granny and You.) dialogue moments.

 

It would have been BETTER BY FAR if they had given you a Jedi's sense of himself _not wanting_ The Force because something he saw made him CHOOSE to turn away.

 

And having said Energy Field knock down the door to whatever hovel of mind and body he was hiding in and drag him, kicking and screaming, out into the light of a 'creeping destiny'. But not a blank personality.

 

A rusty mystic that hesitates to use his powers may still be effectively 'invisible'. But a man who has no "This is me!" sense for a player to work outwards from has no real presence in the story around which his choices build.

 

And it is not merely placing the psyche in-context with the story either. For it is purely a civillian myth to think that a warrior can have a 'learning curve' in combat. You train like you fight. And then you fight the war you brung son. Or you die in your first battle. And Kreia's enigmatic 'know it all but won't tell you' chaotic-good idiocy doesn't match to her weak combat POWER in protecting you from your own stupidity in getting past a ten-mission hump.

 

Nor does it stand to reason that she would not want Exile to believe in a need to fight again. As a function of explicitly describing what drives a Sith Lord to do what he does. "Do not think it is merely a matter of killing him or dying at his vampiric need! It is a matter of -how as who- you are when that choice is made. Lest the ravening hunger merely transfer itself to whatever victory emerges, tainted by his triumph..."

 

Visa and HM's Lawful Evil and Lawful Good alternatives remain basically unexplored as sounding board alternatives. Showing that even the /females/ are excessively dominated in this game.

 

CONCLUSION:

 

1. No personal Identity. No Voice. No existing sense of competence as moral man or bitter warrior. Equals unacknowledged as much as important central character (one of the big drawbacks of 'gender neutral' story telling, IMO.)

2. No 'pretty people' sense of projective association ('Who I wanna be!'. I swear, I am playing as a hispanic male because he is the ONLY guy with a decent hairstyle I can 'pretend' doesn't look like a member of a Skinhead Militia).

3. No interaction with the combat environment resolutions or sense of fighting for a cause through other-character role skips (after T-3 anyway) that exploits /their/ specific abilities to expand and expound upon the storyline. 'Killer' Atton gets jumped in a bar. Whoopie. I was rooting for the cute twilek twins.

 

Such is the penalty of having a too-feminine (all mystery, no meat) approach to teaching at least a /male/ PC to fight for his own morals. In that it just doesn't appeal to a MALE sense of what is sensible as much as 'right' in KNOWING what those morals must be tuned to face. And in this particular story setting there is no alternative sense of 'my country right or wrong' overriding need. Which at least K1 pretended to have.

 

I won't say Obsidian blew it. For their work is classy and chique in what it shows. But I will say that _before the bugs_ (which are /infuriating/, given the price paid and lack of updates) they advertise more than they come through on for an adult morality tale. Bioware made a flat but crisp, 'heroic adventure', tale. Albeit one that is part-crippled by the RPG stat-playing turn system in what feels like it would be better as an FPS.

 

FWIW, the latter company delivered to it's (10 year old worldview) age group. I'm still undecided on WHAT KIND of story Obsidian is trying to sell-tell me. And at this point in the tale, that's never good.

 

 

Saberist Out.

[Timber Loftis]

Given your poor spelling and grammar, as well as your obviously limited vocabulary, I'm not inclined to give your opinion any weight at all.  Why should I believe that you know what you're talking about if you don't know how to talk (figuratively speaking)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Holy unfairness, Whystalker. Online I don't expect folks to be exactly astute in their grammatic -- heck, who is? Additionally, try to remember that non English speakers may be using the site.

[Slipstreme]

Given your poor spelling and grammar, as well as your obviously limited vocabulary, I'm not inclined to give your opinion any weight at all.  Why should I believe that you know what you're talking about if you don't know how to talk (figuratively speaking)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Stop! Hold It Right There! this is not a place to be criticizing someone

[Hive]

It's all a matter of preference.

 

For me, KotOR had a more interesting PC, more interesting story, more interesting party NPCs, more fleshed out part NPCs, was more complete (far more!) and had better worlds.

 

KotOR II had some very cool new features (like eg. the weapon switching or random loot system), new force powers, a few new weapons (nothing important, though), alternative party NPCs for the same spot (Mira/Hanrarr and Handmaiden/Disciple), more epic battles and more Sith Lords. But all this is not important enough to give it the edge over the first game.

 

If I could play KotOR with the new features and force powers from KotOR II, I would be a happy man.

[Azure79]

Saberist, are you writing a paper on story elements and the KotOR series? Interesting read and you do bring up some interesting points, especially on the characterization of Bastila and Revan though I frankly don't understand some of the things you're writing about.

 

I'll come back around and read it again later when I'm not so tired.

[hawk]

Maybe the Kotor I story is a bit "more of the same", a guy running around the galaxy in search of Starmaps to finally save the republic or concer the galaxy again, but I disagree about the characters in Kotor I and some of the events happening in the game. Sure, in Kotor II more things actually happen like all the events taking place in Nar Shaddaa and Onderon / Dxun. It's just that you get to know the characters so much more in Kotor I then in II and the revelation was IMO much better then the one in II (finding out that you are Revan v.s. the beginning of the End game in II). Finally, the ending itself in I is far better done then the one in no. II.

I mean, asking Kreia about your friends to what would happen to them is far worse then actually see them being awarded by the Republic.

[Hive]

I mean, asking Kreia about your friends to what would happen to them is far worse then actually see them being awarded by the Republic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And the end sequence with the heroes being awarded medals and stuff is after all a classical SW ending, used in both Ep. IV and Ep. I.

[Darth Flatus]

Kotor's story is the simpler of the two but that doesnt mean its inferior. It had good pacing and the twist was well done and the story was wrapped up no matter your alignment.

 

The story in K2 attempted to be bolder by introducing new ideas but these wre poorly executed and it seemed rushed so overall it just became confusing and unsatisfactory

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Kotor's story is the simpler of the two but that doesnt mean its inferior. It had good pacing and the twist was well done and the story was wrapped up no matter your alignment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok for a movie dull for a game. Worse was that the game gave away the twist but then would not let you act on it. It's something Bioware dont seem to be able to get out of.

[Jivin]

I probably could have lived with the fact that there were some other unconcluded plots in KOTOR2, and I like the fact that it has been left open for good integration into a 3rd game, but I can't beleive they neglected to give you sufficient closure to the plots and relationships of the characters you travelled with, -especially- since interactively developing the relationships with those characters had been such a big focus throughout the game. I loved the characters in TSL, and since I got into it so much and bonded with those characters I felt might ripped off that the ending didn't entail what a good ending for such a great game should have.

 

At the end of the day, despite my love of the game in general and the characters... if KOTOR1 tied it all together and ended it properly, then I would rather that over the advantages KOTOR2 has to offer (great characters and an ending open to a 3rd game). Ending the game properly is just that important to me. And really, the only reason I like the idea so much of KOTOR2 being open to a 3rd game is BECAUSE they didnt conclude the game properly - because if they had have finished it up well, I wouldn't be so worried about wanting those characters to re-appear in the 3rd installment (although it would still be nice)... so its a bit of a catch 22.

 

I'm yet to play KOTOR1, so im really just going off common opinions though when I say that KOTOR1 tied things up well.

 

- Dan

[ada]

Given your poor spelling and grammar, as well as your obviously limited vocabulary, I'm not inclined to give your opinion any weight at all.  Why should I believe that you know what you're talking about if you don't know how to talk (figuratively speaking)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thouth that this is international forum and nobody expects huge vocabulary or perfect grammer IN ENGISH from us

[Jediphile]

And really, the only reason I like the idea so much of KOTOR2 being open to a 3rd game is BECAUSE they didnt conclude the game properly - because if they had have finished it up well, I wouldn't be so worried about wanting those characters to re-appear in the 3rd installment (although it would still be nice)... so its a bit of a catch 22.

 

- Dan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

There's a difference between an open ending and no ending. Empire Strikes Back had an open ending, where it was clear that a lot of plots were intentionally left unanswered (will Han Solo be rescued? Is Vader Luke's father? Will Luke become a jedi now that he has defied Yoda and Obi-Wan? Will Leia choose Han or Luke? Etc.). However, you did get closure to that chapter, even if it was a "to be continued"/cliffhanger ending - you knew where the protagonists were at in their internal relationships and which conflicts they had to confront in the next chapter.

 

You just don't get that in KotOR2. I still don't know if Bao-Dur lived or died, or whether G0-T0 or the drone won their little fight. I know that Mira (or Hanharr, if you were lightsided) lived, but otherwise I'm left with no idea of what happened to the characters I spend an entire game building relationships with. Kreia makes some predictions, but - I mean - consider the source....

 

Sure, I've read and heard much of the cut material, but we still don't know whether that will be considered 'canon' in the next game. After all, since it didn't make it into the actual game, it is not impossible for the developers of KotOR3 to just ignore it all, since it didn't really happen - it was just something planned that never made it into the game.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

or whether G0-T0 or the drone won their little fight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's given away in the cinematic.

[Jivin]

And really, the only reason I like the idea so much of KOTOR2 being open to a 3rd game is BECAUSE they didnt conclude the game properly - because if they had have finished it up well, I wouldn't be so worried about wanting those characters to re-appear in the 3rd installment (although it would still be nice)... so its a bit of a catch 22.

 

- Dan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

There's a difference between an open ending and no ending. Empire Strikes Back had an open ending, where it was clear that a lot of plots were intentionally left unanswered (will Han Solo be rescued? Is Vader Luke's father? Will Luke become a jedi now that he has defied Yoda and Obi-Wan? Will Leia choose Han or Luke? Etc.). However, you did get closure to that chapter, even if it was a "to be continued"/cliffhanger ending - you knew where the protagonists were at in their internal relationships and which conflicts they had to confront in the next chapter.

 

You just don't get that in KotOR2. I still don't know if Bao-Dur lived or died, or whether G0-T0 or the drone won their little fight. I know that Mira (or Hanharr, if you were lightsided) lived, but otherwise I'm left with no idea of what happened to the characters I spend an entire game building relationships with. Kreia makes some predictions, but - I mean - consider the source....

 

Sure, I've read and heard much of the cut material, but we still don't know whether that will be considered 'canon' in the next game. After all, since it didn't make it into the actual game, it is not impossible for the developers of KotOR3 to just ignore it all, since it didn't really happen - it was just something planned that never made it into the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

All good points, but I think the way I made my post probably left me open to misunderstanding. Like you, I am of the opinion that the ending to KOTOR2 wasn't up to scratch, even for an 'open' ending, however that said, even with plot lines unexplained and character relationships left hanging, it is still an ending that is very open to a 3rd game, and my point was that I want closure to KOTOR2 a LOT, and because of that I feel its good in a sense that KOTOR2 was open to a 3rd game. Of course, as I said, this is a huge catch 22, because its the fact that they made it a 'open' (albeit crappy) ending in the first place that drives this...

 

Of course there is a possibility that they proceed to make a 3rd game that more or less ignores the remaining issues from KOTOR2.... and that would just be horribly annoying However the premise of my posts were that at least by leaving it open, they have the oppurtunity to take all the development time they need and address the KOTOR2 issues in KOTOR3 and make it into a really kick ass game. I'm not sure that when/if they do that I will get everything I want out of it, but who knows... maybe they will work in some info-gathering questions at the beginning and do a really great job of working it all in as well as creating a kickass new game.

 

- Dan

[Judge Hades]

Given your poor spelling and grammar, as well as your obviously limited vocabulary, I'm not inclined to give your opinion any weight at all.  Why should I believe that you know what you're talking about if you don't know how to talk (figuratively speaking)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Gee, maybe English isn't his first language. Ever thought of that, dipstick. KotOR 2 was released in other languages than just English.

[Nitron]

only one question, how are you doing this? I mean kotor 1 story was nothing, simply nothing, a stupid vilain, a stupid team (a teenage twilek with an attitude, a stupide jedi, an even more stupid jedi, an old padawan , a republic pilot with a personallity complex, a frendly wookie who have as much charism than a rock, a droid that do nothing, and one that is funny but good to nothing, oh and canderous)

 

second thing, if you take kotor 2 storyline, even tho it's unfinished and all, you can still make a really big story, with darkness, sadness, happyness sometime ,tho rarely, the story's complicated and all. In kotor 1 , you got the all cliche story about a nobody who is actually a hero and will kill the bad guy who is stupid and want nothing but conquer the galaxy for no reasons. Along the way, you'll meet a bunch a 2 cm deep caracters, who take nothing seriously, and  all the citizen who donc even seem to realize that there's a war going on. Oh the sith will conquer us all, but hey that's okay, were happy.

 

and to all those who say that playing as revan was great because he was a very deep caracter..... just remember what revan was before kotor 2. A nowhere sith lord who did what he did for who know why, and got capture, than got all powerful again to beat the vilain........ wow...... deeeeeeep

 

obsidian have done a great thing of redoing kotor 1 storyline in their game, it's less stupid like that

anyway, feel free to add more things

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Okay, every single point made by the OP can apply to part 2 as well.

 

The Party--Stupid Jedi, i.e. Kreia. I NEVER used her unless forced to. Useless Droids. Never used G0-T0, only used T3 when forced, used HK a little. Pilot with a personality complex? Sounds like Atton to me. A Wookie and Canderous. BTW, CHA is useless to a Wookie Scout. Only needed for Jedi and the PC.

 

Cliche storyline of a nobody who's really a hero? That could apply to Exile just as much as Revan. Stupid bad guy? Malak is one hundred times the villan Traya is. Conquer the galaxy for no reason? Do you know the Sith code?--

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

Given the choice between ruling the galaxy and not, I can see why Malak made his choice. Traya wanted to destroy everyone's connections to the Force. That's like a five year old saying "If I can't have it, nobody can." People arent happy/ignorant about the war. You can find a dozen characters on freaking Korriban who hate the Sith. Manaan is another prime example, and Dantooine. They are all worried about the Sith's victories. Many of the characters are just as deep, if not more so, as the ones in part 2.

Darkness--The fall of Revan and Malak, the Jedi Civil War, tombs on Korriban, discovering the truth about your past, falling to the dark side again

Sadness--Destruction of Taris, Bastila's sacrifice, Chuundar selling his own people, half of the quests in the game

Happiness--Romances, redeeming Bastila, redeeming yourself

 

If you ask me, part two is the cliched one. It has no real driving force. "Oooh, Sith are attacking." Yeah, that's what they do. "Gotta reunite the masters." This contradicts their belief that congregating only places others in danger, due to what happened on Katar.

 

Part two had no climax. No OMG! moment like in part one. Traya you could see a hundred miles away. She tells you about her past on Citadel Station for crying out loud. Revan was much more subtle.

 

Revan was a nothing Sith? Let's see he rallied hundreds, if not thousands, of Jedi to his cause and turned them all to the Dark Side (not counting those he had killed). Was a brilliant strategist and had a powerful command of the force. As for Traya, well she has nothing going for her. "Did what he did for who know why"? Power, control, domination. That is what all Sith desire. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Vader, Sidious/Palpatine, etc.

 

Plain and simple, part one had the superior storyline.

[Haitoku]

Plain and simple, part one had the superior storyline

 

Your opinion, nothing more.