Saberist

Particularly as regards Nihilous, I agree with most of what you say but you should realize that he is a typical 'male archetype' of evil for it's own sake. While Granny, god bless her black little heart, acts as a more female understandable 'Goddess Encounter' in which evil is used as a vector for /change/ and thus is an impetus towards growth metamorphosis and rebirth. All things which the 'other half' of genderization talks to at a more personal level than it does the male. This being one of the BIG problems inherent to 'gender neutralization' of heroic character arcs in that some of what Revan does and says and almost ALL of what Exile acts out simply doesn't gel with a male mindset. About the only way to get beyond this would have been to have Nihilous either be blood-related in a way which "Mom cannot kill even the most evil of her children..." OR for Kreia to BE Nihilous. Through a set of Costume changes and plot 'disappearances' similar to Palpatine/Sidious' cross-dressing. Given that this kind of primitive moralism (1 dimensional philosophies) is already set in motion for the PT, I doubt if BioSidian's design team found much room for 'improvement' going the latter route. That said, there are other things into which are ugly and in need of major cleanup /besides/ the Major Villains. 1. No Mass Shadow Generators! If only because, if you can do that to a planet with only four ships, then the whole 'Death Star' thing is balloon popped 4 MILLENIA before Sidious 'had the idea'. Yet also because it effectively removes the LIFE AS A CHOICE element from the game. Making Vader's statements about The Force (being more powerful than mere machines) again proven to be a lie of convenience rather than a deep truth. It doesn't matter whether the DEM effect is hostile or beneficial or simply inimical (sp.) to both sides of a moral debate. If you 'crane it in' at the last second, it becomes so obsurdly _plot device artificial_. Let's be clear here too: The whole bit with 'Shielded Circuits' and all the rest is because Star Wars tech includes _atomic dampeners_ (see the Han Solo series of books) which effectively removes most kinds of atomic-reaction type WMD off the board. THIS being why a 'back to the grunt infantry' approach (and Jedi in particular) are more important than machines in a galaxy largely at peace if ruled by terrorism/criminality. 2. Exile Is A Catalyst Empath. In 'Darkover Terms' (which covers Psionics better than most) this means that he forms unconscious links with people and 'wakes up' any latent Force gifiting. It is therefore LOGICAL, since (according to Yoda: "Between you, me, that rock, that tree... Yes, even between the land and the ship...") **Everyone** and anything, living, creates The Force; that Exile should be the one who caused the catastrophe on Malachor V. By magnifying everyone's death-scream into a particularly potent area-Force Breach (plus Death Field plus Force Drain) that was his own attempt to 'shut off the horror'. And that the Council, sensing this and sensing that he could go insane (Darkside, X10) if he kept 'flickering' with Force connection, DID cut his residual connection. And only a few of the Masters realized that it might come back after exiling him. i.e. Give the Jedi Masters some dignity in that they don't punish a man who wasn't anything like Revan (did not participate in the Jedi Insurrection) but only /seemed/ to hold him guilty. For the one crime (breaking the doctrine). While shielding his PTSD shattered conscience from what it could not accept of the real one (loving so much you slaughtered thousands). 3. Revan WANTS Exile Back. And Kreia is his own residual (leave behind operative) chess piece in that, while the Jedi Masters see only Exiles use against Nihilous, Reven and She KNOW that Nihilous is 'but the first of many'. i.e. the Sith are coming to US. HER 'motivation' is that of Arron Kae or whoever it was. In that, having been abandoned by the Jedi for breeding. She SOUGHT the Sith and was indeed either apprenticed with or _Mother Of_ Sion and Nihilous. But her own potency had indeed been abbrogated by the birth. And so when they turned on her, she was cast down. Whereupon Revan found her and brought her back, using her Sith Knowledge plus his Precognition to identify the real coming-soon threat. Kreia admires (envies) Revan his discipline in not losing his power and his Jedi lover. But she HATES the Council. Because the war she participated in (I would say it was the Sith Hyperspace war of Jolee's timeframe since that makes the timelines easier to handle) took her lover after they cast her out. And she had nothing left, No Sith, No Jedi, no Husband. THAT is a believable motive for her to want to annihilate the remaining Jedi Masters 'no matter what' their own motivations or change of heart. 4. The reason Exile must (K2) CHOOSE which path to take is that the endgame is not that of 'Dark or Light'. But JEDI or REVAN. As he is 'captured' by the True Sith after doing the final battle with Kreia. Or refuses to fight her and thus does what he thinks is best in not BECOMING her pawn. Thus returning to fight the TS from the same standpoint as Revan once did: Elite Jedi Liason/Commander of the fleet. Albeit in a losing battle. A K3 STORY PROGRESSION THEN: If you want a 'cliffhanger', you must give it. And the easiest way to do that is to bring the True Sith into the game at the very end of the second game. Perhaps with a defeated Kreia commiting suicide (lest they strip her mind and figure out who Revan really is, or perhaps just because she fears being broken by them...again). And the player seemingly having no 'good options left' after a long, hard, battle against Nihilous AND Sion. It being important that the 'null' effect of Exile's ability is now _spatially controllable_ to the extent that Kreia taught him how to 'leave only himself on' as he switched off all Force Connections Around Him. Thus Force Breach must be both withheld as a general power. And 'advanced level up' activated to first turn oneself off. Then to turn everyone around you off. And then to form an inverse-bubble in which everyone around you is off but you are still on. Such being the last mode that Kreia gives Exile before her death/defeat as 'all of a sudden' (you get a cut scene with) a MASSIVE organic type starship, just shimmer-blurring into existence within the arctic (Telos) or stormwracked (Malachor) sky. And as a tickle, we get to see what 'True Sith', or at least their dog soldiers are. Probably huge. Possibly skeletal or otherwise 'ghoulish/dead'. THIS would have set up any K3 environment to be an _In Conquest Born_ type event in which the player's ultimate 'point of view' had less to do with the (again, disappointing) personal motivation than it does the way Revan and Exile either team up. Or fight against each other. But only in a fashion which makes it clear that the K3 'suhprahz-suhprahz!' ending is that Revan is indeed the ultimate strategist. Playing both sides against the middle and his 'chose to fall' Darkside path was that of being a dark savior such as Darth Vader would never hope to achieve (i.e. REAL storytelling, not some git being thrown down a well). For what he had Kreia /train/ Exile to do was in fact to kill him and/or cut the Force Bond at a moment where the True Sith were on the verge of being ultimately triumphant. Yet stood terribly vulnerable. Using the JKA Marka Ragnos design ideal as a starting point, one might for instance assume that Revan 'needs' Exile to form a connection between Sith Lords so powerful that they can no longer be contained in Flesh. But must fill an empty vessel. With _Bastilla_ (battle meditation=Matrix Telepath) being that temporary 'ISP Distribution Host' and Revan being the means by which either a Clone Army is acquired or a 'Gathering' (think Slaver Raid) type precognitive hunt occurs for the galaxy's remaining Force Sensitives. And Bastilla (at last a REAL female hero!) is also the one who can permanently annihilate the Sith IF she is killed 'while a null is established' and the Sith Lords not only cannot stay within her but have no means of bridging the gap to ANY living host around them (shades of _Fallen_). For this, Revan must die too. And of course his 'motive' is obvious. Saving Bastilla. Yet his _goal_ is defeat at the hands of Exile. Because if Exile's 'level three null' Force Effect leaves a small bubble around him and Revan then Revan must not be eligible as a host either. The endgame objective? Not annihilation of specific beings but the 'shading' of The Force itself. i.e. Rather than have individual outcomes effect the player status as a Jedi or Sith. The player themselves effects the nature of _THE FORCE_ in a way that allows or prevents these Darkside entities from (for instance) taking all the weak Jedi and other Force Users (the majority of whom Revan allowed slaughtered for a reason) that Revan has Gathered and 'multiservering' them through Bastilla as a function of forming a Sith Army that is driven by one ravening hunger for evil (ala Nihilous) yet is sufficiently individual to not /drain/ The Force locally. While forming the administrative bureacracy by which such a 'renewed' (their current Empire is all but a desert) Sith Empire might flourish. If only in the act of constant corruption and decay. This army would be like unto a cross between Stargate Alien and the 'pod people' in _Body Snatchers_. A hive mind whose individual elements are not as strong as Jedi. But whose combined capability gives them 'communal powers' (one mind, coming togther through many bodies, proximally) far beyond those that any group of individual conduits to The Force could muster without burning out. What's more, by scattering the Darkside energy that the Sith Lords represent, you see the ultimate beginning of the weakening of The Force that will /lead to/ the OT/PT. Due to it's +/- side being splintered far and wide throughout the galaxy. (A function of the Exile Null effect let's say, you cannot destroy that much energy, but you can white-hole distribute it, almost infinitely, explaining why it took so long for the 'next cycle' of good-vs.-evil and why it took the form of a 'shroud' of Darkness rather than a vergence of multiple individuals.) Again, at some point, killing Revan or Bastilla or both must not simply 'redeem' but _give purpose_ to all that came before. So that, say, as pure Force Beings whose 'bond' is that of love which cannot be frayed and scattered with the energy of the evil they contained but did not 'become'. Post-mortem, one sits up and 'awakens' the other so that the Player can discover that each held the other's innermost conscience safe from exposure (expositional moment). Yet, though Very Real as reincarnated beings, the moment of their death has indeed occured and (and through Exile's witnessing), both must leave this plane to become some kind of 'Beyond Jedi' new-definition of Force Construct/Creature (the inverse of the Sith Lords at any rate). They are saved because, as twinned male:female (yin and yang in perfect dynamic-fit balance) spirits they have in unity 'beyond' this life, what The Sith sought to create artificially within it: The perfect preservation of each other's identity. Such also being the 'starting point' for the (Yoda and Ben) ability of Jedi to truly make the "No Death' element of their Code come true. If they choose the path of enduring sacrifice (leaving behind everything but their inmost core beings) the light will cherish what remains and not allow it to lose focus for that IS, ultimately, what it 'most is' (not loss, but preservation, only of the 'good stuff'). Rather than Darkness which doesn't refine but rather _conserves_ all elements of this, baser, world elements of psyche which 'explodes on contact' shattering the soul attempting to make the trip with all such baggage as pride and personal indulgence. Things which are only (Narcissistic) reflections of self not it's true center. CONCLUSION: The 'saddest love story' for all the girls to sigh over. The perfect 'heroic sacrifice' for all the guys to argue about 'how stupid-was-that, they did a personal Alamo by running off the /find/ Santa Anna!' And a murder mystery which keeps the audience glued to the cutscene pages. Because /surely/ something must happen to break the contradiction: that the 'likeliest ones' (the lovers) to survive, are also the most corrupted and undeserving of beneficience. And poor old Exile, 'no matter what he does' he is fated to be Pontius Pilate the guy who gets to vae victus come in from the cold and tell the story like Pat Garret bragging about who shot Billy. But with a (No, reeeeeally, they got away!) wicked gleam in his eye. Saberist Out.

"When it's time to shoot, shoot, don't talk..." (Tukko, 'from the hip, in the bathtub' in _The Good, The Bad And The Ugly_) Actually what made Vader cool was not the fact that he spouted one liners but that he did so in situations which were entirely under his control and thus, there being no 'active threat condition' at all, he could afford to be arrogant (if not sloppy). The Rebel is already dead when he asks the question about the ambassador the inquiry was 'rhetorical' even if it wasn't pointless (diplomatic privelege has been the cover for espionage for /millenia/, even on our world). Leia ("You are a spy and a traitor, take her away!") is both bound and surrounded by Stormtroopers. It also indicates a weakness of Vader in that the 'best he can do' when goaded is to remove the stimulus rather than eliminate his reactio to it...). In the War Room, this is made all the more obvious in that it takes Governor Tarkin to pull Vader off the man and there was _no point_ in his 'power point illustration' because not only did Vader have nothing to gain (intel or intimidation) from the act (the officer was in fact correct, the Death Star was more 'powerful'). But Vader also didn't get to /carry thru/ on his threat in a way that made him seem even weaker. More pitbull than potentate. In any case, however; Vader was never under any threat from the _unarmed_ officers in the room and I'm not even sure that the two door sentries (there in other shots of Governor Tarkin's 'office') were present either. At the other end of the scale, the pompous older Admiral Ozzle (sp.) is too busy trying to defluster himself (psychologically self-intimidated as a function of false-anger covering up for a real mistake) to be a threat, even if he hadn't died 'by hologram'. Again showing Vader's preference for killing beyond the influence of a crew that was potentially loyal to their task group Commander. At the same time it displays a decided lack of managerial 'hands on to the critical details' CONTROL of the situation on Vader's part ("I told you not to pop out of hyperspace so close in..." Is NOTHING compared to "Admiral, these are my orders, you will pop out of hyperspace at least .25 parsec out from the system..."). Captain Needa fulfills the 'heroic samurai' tradition (speared messenger) when he was 'too honorable' (aka also full of himself) to realize that taking responsibility upon his shoulders wouldn't mean diddly dip to Vader. Nor save his bridge crew if Vader was so inclined. And so, in failing to simply 'sit still, shut up and file the paperwork in triplicate, slowly...' he also assured that his /style/ of (effective) command would also be lost. Again, in NONE of these instances, is Vader 'really cool' as in level headed and insightful. He does however posess the schoolyard bully's sense of time and place to impose his sadism upon victims 'without a teacher looking'. Inner And Outward Silence is the gift of a focussed warrior in combat. Extensive dialogue just shows a lack of concentrated will if not capabiltiy to achieve an objective, that you have to 'talk them to death' otherwise. Saberist Out.

Alan C, Thanks for the suggestion and critique, I hadn't considered Dragon's Age because I don't own the game and so can't register to their forums (or at least I can't if it's like KOTOR), I'm going to take a look at the RPG Codex in a moment. In terms of the 'boring mimicry', I'm flexible! That's why I post to be honest. Sounding-board away with some alternatives if you will. As a point of reference to what I'm visualizing, think of 'Jedi Training' as something of a cross between the scene in _Conan The Barbarian_ in which the little Oriental dude with the horsetail braid jumps down into the pit arena and slaps this big Ah-nold brute silly for 'losing his focus'. And then kicks the peanut gallery in the crotch for daring to laugh at his training methods. Before later, alone, you see Conan 'getting it right'. And a similar scene in _Highlander_ in which Duncan sets down his precious (too short for his height and too cripplingly predictable in it's single edge and slashing limited forms) Katana to relearn the Great Wheel of Distreza against a real swordsman. Footwork. Footwork. FOOTWORK! Over and Over. Step and Slide Across. Shift and Turn And Cut. High and low. Prime and Secunde. A dance in which the purpose is not to make a rhythm between two people but to tease with it. And then to kill the one foolish enough to 'believe rather than know' when he can step in to follow rather than lead the next motion. Breaking his biomechanical predictability by changing the pattern on the fly to create a new outcome. Constantly MOVING, which is something the Jedi seldom 'batting practice' do. Learning at that level of mastery (basically what every Force Adept Apprentice would be /starting at/ within the SWU, IMO) should NOT be easy. It should be hard and it should be frustrating and humiliating and discouraging. There should be moments where, because your timing is off (foot leads, body centers, sword completes) with your master's stride. Or because you forgot to 'connect the dots' as you went from Q to D but didn't -turn- the grip as you moved from D to A. You look like an utter git because 'blade master' that you are, why is your weapon sitting there, gleaming at your feet? And in general, though your master never laughs, his silent appraisal hurts more because he knows when you've been practicing. And when you've slacked off. Or when you simply aren't a 'natural' and need to try even harder to get that particular part of the form. And it seems like you will never...quite...get....THERE! But you keep trying. Because the few examples he gives you make it look so beautiful. So effortless. And when 'there' finally happens, it is like everything in the universe suddenly makes sense. For just a moment. When, for a mere 'instance' of potential opening, all of you -just is- as the blade becomes the pattern and you twist the pattern to what your enemy's existence dictates is different from the way you KNOW an engagement is about to go as your muscles, mind and vision all come together to make your will a living thing. Now, given that this is Star Wars, I have no problem with (having memorized the form on a wheel diagram or linear mat system) seeing the instructor turning around to practice duel you using shinai or bokken type sticks so that 'as he plays the bad guy' you see literally how your form -succeeds-. Or even moving onto some kind of 'Holodeck **** Fighting Droid' type system (Imagine HK-47 with a spinning top and multiple arms like the fighting automaton in _Dune_) illustrating the way it is supposed to be used -situationally- against more than 1 opponent. i.e. As a reward for achievement you see '4 guys appear all around you' and by choosing the RIGHT GUY you just /flow/ through the engagement (Think _Last Samurai_ alleyway assassination scene only -better-): Kill 1. Turn, Reverse Countercut, Twisting blade out before lunging in to stab throat. Kill 4. Drop to Knee, Void Under #3's Blade, Twist And Thrust Up. Kill. Step Back And Up To Feet, Spin and Step Out Again. Blade Graces Back Of Neck. As Number 2 goes rushing by. So that, 'while it happens like a movie'. It REALLY IS _You_ who created the pattern. Who chose the target ordering. And /mastered the moment/ to make it occur. Even in the most 'realistic' of Kenjutsu and Bojutsu (among others) archaic forms still practiced, more or less authentically in Japan, as well as the WMA/ARMA stuff here in the states. Pople don't often fight at full speed, 'with intent', anymore because padded blades and body armor or no, the risk of permanently defacing/debilitating 'dueling scars' (missing teeth and smashed knuckles) is too high. And, without constant practice from childhood onwards, the eye and muscle memory and and psychomotor control plus sheer endurance just _never develop_ sufficiently to really hold the forms correctly at full intensity anyway. But if you could ever **See It Done**. Like it was originally intended to be. It is a pure-blur of physical magic. The kind of warskill that lets a single 'knight' of any elite warrior nationality stand, untouchable, against seemingly impossible odds (10-20:1 or more if he chooses his ground correctly) of 'militia'. And win. Almost every time. By comparison, having my own party members get in my way, having 'pause game' spacebar lags for every kill and mandatory target reassignment or aggression change as well as 'flashing neon signs' indicating everything from kill-XP to party member down, to target 'crosshairs' (when mines bubbles don't get in the way). Just isn't even close. Because it is all too technical looking. Too slow. And without flow of choice and pattern that is made-fate with a weapon that kills or incapacitates at every touch. Saberist Out. LINKS- The Spanish Circle, Death As A Wheel Of Instances. http://sjaqua.tripod.com/spanishc.htm Linear Kata's between Uchitachi and the Shidachi. http://users.skynet.be/nobara/TEST/Jokatas.htm

Funny how people claim that they would have waited for a completed game, but they aren't willing to wait for a completed patch. This isn't directed at you specifically, just a general observation of the people here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> IMO, The problem with Obsidian and 'The Patch' (like unto Monty Python saying 'The Grail') is that they don't involve people on a level of what's up and what's 'still yet to be done'. Pedantic Mode On: Ahhhehhheehhem! Is this thing on? 'Thesis Presentation On How To Do A Patch Right'. 1. Generate A Complaint LIST. Which a player must 'read before contributing to' (answer a test at the end of 5-10 "who suggested X fix?" questions using bug complaints spaced throughout the text of the list) 2. Further 'moderate' that list via a Forum Volunteer to keep overlapping requests to a minimum and not hassle the devs for say a month after initial release (while people continue to find bugs). 3. Include a 'time-event code' key so that when junior gets his whacked programming 'event' he can pull up and INCLUDE THE NUMBERS for it (module X line YY) in his suggestion. Probably including platform specs. 4. At the end of the complaint gathering segment, have an 'orderathon' POLL in terms of which complaints most need fixing and which are less spectacularly bad. Top 10-20 are in, the others 'as we find the spare time'. Obviously, misspelling 'Onasi' should not be that big a deal to fix. Slow frame rates and clipping or ghosting of characters may be more involved. 5. Start To Fix These Specific Problems. Publishing a weekly or biweekly completion notification as to the extent of the fixes already made, including those which have to 'refixed again' thanks to something else being altered. And then put out the patch when the PLAYER CHOSEN items are all done. It's not like there's any secrets left. It's not like Obsidian is having to protect something proprietary in terms of risk of code or a lawsuit for 'faulty product'. Not now. You want to BE a 'loyal fanbase'? You support your local sheriff through thick and thin. You want to HAVE a 'fanatical following'? You _Be Honest_ about where you are on fixing things and what you're willing to do to get someplace better. Stepping Off Soap Box- Saberist.

Darth Frog, >> I think VotF (a.k.a. Saberist) has made some good points about how a nice game ought to be if you look at it as a combat/martial arts simulation. However, d20 is no such beast and much less our favourite hack&slash lite which is based on a thoroughly watered-down version of d20. And given the math as it is and the game as it is the 'epic' versions of weapon specialization and the dual-wielding feats are utterly superfluous feat sinks. >> Hey, thanks for the kudos! ) From my perspective, 'knowing a little about D20', 90+% of what you wrote below is indecipherable without a calculator to hand while I _know_ if I could 'redesign KOTOR' to open it up to a wider audience; (always a good thing, commercially) I could invent a 'self teaching' system of tutorial which would be **visually comprehensible** to everyone. It two uses numbers. My strokes vs. Your strokes. But it /modifies/ them based on a vitruvian man concept (Michaelangelo's 'spread eagle guy') of 'designer cuts' using the- QWE ASD ZXC system of up/down, left/right + diagonals to 'soak up' a given number of cuts per melee round. Add to this a level-up form system by which you 'walk up and down the mats' with a Master REALLY TEACHING YOU (no cutoff movie scenes) a new 'kata' which you must follow based on a Simon-like (the electronic game) pattern mimicry basis (theoretically giving more quick eye'd players additional cuts per level up), you end up with an _integrated attack defense_ SYSTEM. Because when you see the 'green Sith' pop out of the woodwork (using JKO/JKA analogies) you KNOW, from his stance and blade angle what kind of a form he is fighting with. And so you can _select_ 1-thru-0 as an attack pattern which BEATS that system. In X or fewer moves. Ahah!! Now we have tactical game play! Because while maybe you have 8 cuts this melee round and maybe he has only 5, such that the Computer AI would beat him anyway. By selecting Kata #7, you can instead beat him in 4 cuts because _Your Master Says That's How It's Supposed To Work_. Which is important because bad guys always attack in groups. And so your 'first order of business' is to mouse click 'freeze time' (and activate a high-remote camera angle) as you swivel about and SELECT your first target, using the other mouse button to restart time. If you do this, properly, then every time you MOVE (translate, at Force enhanced speed) towards A, you BLOCK OFF or 'outrun' BCDE & F. Which means that you are not in a KOTOR like situation wherein you are literally surrounded at about 4ft distances, 'swinging away' against staff wielding thugs. And 'because the numbers say so', nobody hits you. Which is _utterly_ impossible, mathematically or otherwise. Yet common in the Trayus Academy especially. The Big Differences Between D20 and My System: Mine is not about technology. Swords are just big sticks. THE MAN who wields them is 'the weapon'. Mine USES numbers, yet is not used /by them/, to justify the impossible. Mine is simplistic in use AND understanding. Mine includes further modifiers- Facing: arms reach 2 feet, laterally, arms reach 3. This also effects the way certain forms end, with you 'stepping out' to cut as your opponent moves linearly by you. Spacing: Do you fight in the outer/mid/inner wards, basically first third, middle third or base of blade to effect _strength_ modifiers? Luke was a fool to cross into the mid/inner wards with Vader. He was too short for that crap. At the same time, the outer, 'speed based' ward, while quick and powerful, soaks up constitution (wider cuts have more power but cover MUCH wider blade arcs and so are very tiring). Pacing: Do you 'flurry up' and expend all your cuts in say a HALF or QUARTER melee round, beating your opponent on sheer FURY of assault, while losing out by having nothing left if you fail? If you do, there is still the 'engage/disengage' key which Force-gymnastics you away from being dogpiled. Or directly impaled. So that an 'advanced' player can further adjust his style (and indeed, some of the katas would likely employ these as 'cut soaks' once you get up to about 10-12 cuts per MR and geometry of the battle becomes more entertaining than simply speed of saber movement.) Mine assumes minimal if not NON EXISTENT Cortosis 'magic teflon' /crap/. So that the saber kills or incapacitates with almost any touch. So that the grace of slaying multiple opponents comes NOT on the basis of hack'n'whack batting practice. But on the notion of killing with a single blur of movement. 90+% of the average street-punks. i.e. Unlike Bioware and Obsidian (and Raven and Lucasarts) MY SYSTEM INVOLVES THE PLAYER. Yet doesn't overwhelm him with goodie-based modifiers that leave him 'watching a movie'. >> For example, around level 30 your enemies have defense 40 or less (except for two bosses), meaning you need an attack modifier of 38 in order to score any hit that can be scored. Roll 1 is automatic miss, and your attack roll must match or exceed enemy defense in order to score a hit, so in order to hit on roll 2 or higher you need an attack bonus of 40 - 2 = 38. Now, any level 30 character - even Consular/Jedi Master - already has a BAB of 30. Add to that the plentiful free items/upgrades that give you attack boni as a side-effect (!) and you end up with an attack modifier in the 50s/60s, meaning that the surplus attack bonus is already higher than the penalty for dual-wielding without having even the basic feat (-6/-10). With the third of the basic feats the remaining penalty is -2/-2 for the unbalanced case, which is completely negligible. >> Learning a sword form should be independent of class. One form might be linear 'power' based (shortest route between two points is NOT a circle). One form might be conservatively 'circle' based (Distreza or the Great Wheel is probably the most sophisticated 'mathematical' system of fencing on the planet) One form might be pankration 'whole body' based. Like _Gladiator_ where even your arms and feet are designed to /break/ your enemies defenses. One form might be Force Magic associated as the ONLY means by which a Jedi could execute non-physical attacks while fighting. NONE of which would necessarily reflect a 'class' (Guardian/Sentinel/Consular goes to what 'role' you play in everyday life as a bodyguard or A-Team type training advisor. An active investigator/intel operative. Or a high level negotiator and lie-detecting 'mediator' at both commercial and political games). The difference is that if I have a 5 foot nothing woman facing off against a 6'4" male, she had darn well better NOT go 'toe to toe' with him. BUT if she can use ALL her (lighter, quicker, whip-supple) body OR if she can use MAGIC as a 'standing' additional defense (without concentration or melee round interruption) so that "No blaster bolt will ever touch me, even though I have no strokes to spare as I fight with the best Saberist in the galaxy". Or alternately, "No Saberist will ever come into my inner ward (Close Spacing) because my Force Teek keeps him 'at bay', physically..." Now you have a _battle master_ 'woman' who is ten times what a _by build and sex_ you would expect the linebacker male to be 'better at'. This association of blade style and Force Gift with 'what you do at work' is tenuous at best. >> The situation is less dramatic at level 15 which is the earliest time where it is possible to acquire the feats, but around that time melee-oriented characters won't have any use for those feats either (assuming semi-decent equipment that anybody can get/craft). A similar dichotomy exists in, e.g., the question of double-bladed lightsabres (sabre staffs). They may be a stupid idea if you extrapolate the natural laws of our reality/universe but in the KotOR games the 'natural law' is d20 combined with whatever properties the designers assigned to game items. And from this point of view - the game as it is - the double-bladed sabres would beat single sabres hands-down if it were not for their halved critical threat range (20-20 vs. 19-20): higher base damage, one rare crystal gives benefits for both main hand and off hand, 1.5 multiplier for the STR damage bonus. Around level 30 this translates to +10 damage per main hand attack for a STR-based character, for a guaranteed 50 extra damage per combat round. >> Sigh. Grab a broomstick. Remembering that you can ONLY hold it in the middle third. And try to strike someone standing _directly ahead of you_, more than 2ft away. Without moving your feet. THAT, SIR, is the basic /nonsense/ inherent to a light staff: a 30-45` blade angle that amounts to less than 2ft of reach. You can twirl it by twirling your body or playing cheerleader baton artist. But you cannot 'live hand it' because you can never return the pommel to the base of ribs or bellybutton level which 'sets' the leveraged grip (i.e. it is incredibly simple to disarm). And more importantly, you cannot beat the speed of an enemy that WILL strike your center (hand hold) position with simpler (lighter weight, faster twitch) movements of his hands and arms as you rely on _yielding_ the centered balance of CG-over-feet that is a swordsman's best ally in defense. To move that damn energy blade across your center. Light Staffs are THE DUMBEST weapon Lucas ever invented. Period. Dot. >> Double-bladed sabre + Master Speed + Flurry + Juyo will serve you well in any situation and give fairly dependable results; approaches relying on critical hits yield 3...10% more average damage and much higher peak (and also much lower lows), but actual results tend to fluctuate rather wildly and thus the number of combat rounds needed to defeat non-grunt enemies. Note: the 10% figure is for STR builds; for weak characters the advantage from using Master Power Attack with keen 'non-double' sabres can be higher because for them the +12 damage bonus from Master Power Attack makes more of a difference. I prefer the double-bladed sabre with Flurry, because it is enough to cut down Sion in a single combat round reliably, so there is nothing to be gained from using a combo that cannot give any better results but that has higher probability of failure. >> Snort. Oh Boyee, _that's fun_! My machine killed him! ;-) Not me. Note that you also USE this as an excuse to bypass the obvious which is that _weak opponents attack in numbers_ (Hyenas vs. Lion, Dogs vs. Cougar, Pigs vs. Tiger) to distract and defeat their enemies on sheer overwhelming numbers. WHY would 'only the last' opponent be worth fighting (as a function of enduring game boredom) after wading through several hundred of his cannon-fodder lesser followers like they weren't even there 'from level 15 on'? Not to mention the sheer save-die-reload frustration and embarrassment of /pre/ Level-15 survival by reincarnation. No. These people should be the means by which you teach yourself the skills, detached ferocity and tactical insight to finally face your ultimate enemy. By -seeing- a threat-kata as a function of watching the bladework pattern develop. And choosing it's match from among your own that best suits the needs of the moment. A swordsman is only as good as his students. And if you have no real trouble with them, then there is no 'breathless and dripping sweat, I stepped over the last fallen body to stand before the Sith Master' sense of WHAT IT TAKES to finally beat the man not his disciples. Again, USING MY SYSTEM, there is one essential, elegant, cheat: Namely as long as the player has cuts left, he can and WILL defend, /perfectly/. BUT, through the choice of improving _kata'd forms_ and as he gains 'live hands' via simple experience; he/she will be able to 'step inside the pattern' and _break it_ as he knocks his enemies blade out of guard and steps through for the clean kill. While, being 'purely linear' these dog-soldiers will never be able to fight back. The difference (ironically) is 'in the numbers', of total enemy, whom the player MUST hold off by conserving enough cuts to /blend seamlessly/ between the present and next melee round, while exploring the boundless grace and variability (This kata or that one? Giving infinite replay value based on visual attraction of the fight mechanics 'where as a function of when the kill comes from') that is an elemental purity of opposed, intersecting, blade dance. 'Role Playing' is not about statistical combat. It is about adopting the persona of a character and 'seeing him thru' a game scenario that both states and reinforces yet also reveals new aspects and vulnerabilities of, your own psyche. That is what is so sad about the use of P&P 'rules' based systems in a CRPG. In that they were invented to allow a DM to moderate physical laws that were undefined if not 'invisible' within the living imagination. While THE PLAYERS (plural) got to enjoy the dramatic interaction of a 'conversational theater' team play environment. There is NO live-action supporting cast in either KOTOR and K2 has effectively proven how shallow and unsatisfying 'sophistrated vs. sophisticated' artificial dialogue (that goes nowhere) can be. But the dynamics of physics are very MUCH 'defined' through what the single player can 'observe and estimate a reason for being', on-screen. Offering a vital, visual, _mechanical_ alternative to the 'purely dice toss odds' based D20 setup. Saberist Out.

Well, /You/ noticed. So I believe 'thanks' are in order...;-) Saberist.

Think About This- 1 blade. TWO HANDS. _No Weight_ in the blade itself. Thus any 'power' of the strike comes from either Force Telekinetics (amplifying the kinetic motion of the blade itself) or force-as-Muscles literally treating the weapon like a baseball bat or a sledgehammer. Something you can only do if the blade is unshiverable and at the same time, 'all edge'. If both hands are on the haft, you get twice as much power. One hand on two hafts, half as much. HOWEVER; you also get half as much reach. You /can/ 'dual lock' blades by crossing them and in some ways this does give you added leverage (forcing against your own as well as your opponent's blade from a lowered elbow angle). But GETTING THEM THEM THERE is not easy because traditionally dual wielding is about clearing the blade cut planes so that they -don't- 'cross over' and self block each other. While staying offensive by making your enemy worry about two separate blade:body attack indexes on his own hide. Indeed, among the best schools of fencing (Italian and Spanish) the fencing 'dagger' is only about a 1/3rd as long as the main blade (a rapier _lunging_ thrust weapon of some kind) because the shorter weapon, often with wide quillons, is used purely to trap and redirect the enemy strike without becoming as commited to (gross body motion) 'dodging' yourself as to take your longer thrusting weapon out of line with a riposte or similar counterattack. Such a system may not be as necessary (endurance and speed) on a 'weightless' long blade. Wherein a series of eccentric circles like Distreza based fighting can help draw the enemy forward and out. But the (dual) blade clearance problems would remain and along with the axial body alignment necessary to strike-then-strike (linear timing vs. the reach of the swinging and '****ed' blade arms), a good single wielder can do a lot to 'interrupt' a dual wielders dynamic or nothing attack cycle. Making him look like a clumsy oaf. Stepping OUT of alignment with that linear 'pirouhette' attack you see in the trailer so much, either vertically or laterally, is one method that a single wielder, properly focussed can 'void' (be where the blade axis is not) do instead of parry/blocking or countercutting into a blade cutplane. Last but not least, let me emphasize here that the real warriors have 'live hands' which can tumble or redirect a blade touch location based on a 'repostured' grip rather than purely stance based hack & whack. They can also SWITCH hands, on the fly, making themselves lefty-righty ambidextrous in a fashion that is truly scarey to a man who has trained to strike at body locations that ONLY 'open up' reveal themselves (through a series of kata like form progressions) if the enemy is a guaranteed dexter or sinister handed player. Of all the faults in the KOTOR swordplay system (and there are MANY, ranging from body size vs. footwork and reach problems to inability to use open hand/'dirty trick' in-fighting methods, to Force Enhanced motions that alter or exceed basic body kinesthetics of facing, spacing and pacing) perhaps the most telling is that there is no 'system of systems' by which the various weapons and forms interact, allowing the PLAYER to understand and show his real skill. Irrespective of 'feats'. Instead, we have a deadly dull statistical system do all our fighting for us. I hope you all realize you -are- 'just watching a movie', done by automatons for whom, whether a blade touches or not, does damage or not, _on screen_ means absolutely NOTHING compared to the 'roll of the dice' mathematical (invisible, uncontrollable) resolutions? Saberist Out.

Shdy, >> Moral relativism is an observable fact. Different cultures have different values. You can assert that your values are better than other values. In fact, you should do that - if you don't assert your values, why do you have them? You may even prevail in the political struggle to have your values enforced, instead of other values. But that just proves that you've won. It doesn't show that your values are objectively better. As for the Jedi, I'd argue that setting yourselves above the law is inherently DS, even if you're doing it to promote the LS. >> Jedi are in many ways like a smart gun. A _tool_ which cannot be immorally used without it's owner being aware of what that 'hidden purpose' is. As such the nature of evil _in the individual Jedi_ is the real question you are asking here. >> It's also terrible in terms of practical politics. Do you really think common people would take well to having their laws and cultures judged by an unaccountable elite of mystics who take their guidance from some source that an ordinary man has no contact with? That'd only be workable if you set up some sort of Jedi theocracy, and brought the common folks into the church. It's conceivable, but the Republic doesn't work that way. >> No. Jedi 'just are'. Whatever their belief system, you don't see them rushing out to convert the unwashed masses so their power is highly personal, like a psionic, not a priest. If it were any other way, Lucas would not have been able to sell the belief system to a highly secularized America. Which IS the 'middle road' defining moral culture here, don't be fooled. >> In the real world, we don't expect Catholic priests to bomb abortion clinics. >> In the real world there is the 'commonly held' moral ground which responds to each and every act as a separate engagement in a longfought war between good and evil. And the 'movers and shakers' who /form/ the social conditions by which those acts can occur. The variance is that one views all acts from the past tense without any real power to change what is going on (and in this, rape, slavery, bombing are pretty much universally opposed, no matter the cause). And the other keeps (say) unwanted Brits in Ireland because that is where THEY want to stay. And thus creates the economic and moral disparities by which people becomes so frustrated that they cannot see any 'peaceful civil disobediance' means to change things towards their own point of view. Add to this feelings of nationalism "The UK is NOT to be broken up into little republics!" (which is a good, _unifying_, thing.) at home vs. 'hatred of the man' (the unknown, seemingly uncaring/untouchable priveleged threat not living within your scope of experience) and you have a set of overlying and underlying problems which are simply unresolvable. Now. A Jedi would look at a British PM or Parliament in 1960 and say: "By supporting the rights of Brits with generational residence in Ireland to stay where they are, you are _guaranteeing_ that their subsidized economic lifestyle (better jobs, guaranteed by nationality and religious affiliation) will drive the 'real' Irish insane with jealousy. Even as notions like divorce, and abortion and women's rights in general, seem diametrically against what their own 'higher power' (Catholic Rome) instructs them to hold as evil. _Listen To Me_ when I say to you that these 'struggles' will never end and the death count will exceed 100,000 before 2100. And by 2000, you will have spent in excess of 20 BILLION pounds sterling keeping forces in Ireland to protect 'your' citizens on 'their' turf. Whereas, if you simply PAY each of these citizens (alive today, in Northern Ireland, not their unborn sons and daughters) 150,000lbs to evacuate back to the central island, you will only have to pay _2 Billion pounds_." And you know what? It would only take 1-2 of those kinds of 'mistaken bulldoggedness' type adventures before _The Jedi Would Be Believed_. Not because it is morally right to restrict choices in things like divorce and abortion by allowing a culture to remain isolated within it's beliefs. But because the 'movers and shakers' would prize money before pride. >> HA! Your entire argument is flawed. As you said of course you should attempt to prevail your beliefs on others or why have them? Well do the Jedi believe slavery is wrong or not? If they think it is justifiable that is just sick. And inaction is just as bad as condoning it. Moral Relativism is true to the extent different cultures have different values but after recognizing that people have to accept that their belief is better or switch to whichever they think is best. You can't just let each culture be or the Jedi would be evil to attack the Sith. Heroes do NOT say oh slavery is despicable but it's legal on this Hutt planet so I better try to help a single slave in anyway or Ill slip to the dark side. That's insane. >> The sadness here is that Emperor Palpatine was a weak man who would have died, eventually, anyway (_The Sixth Day_ showed a much more probable use of suicide/memory transfer/cloning to achieve immortality than the Dark Empire EU ever did). As such, the creation of Vader to destroy him is unbelievably irresponsible on the part of The Force because /Vader/ as Palpatine's attack dog, killed and/or subjugted (another word for 'enslaved') BILLIONS of people. Thus what Lucas is effectively saying, -in the movies-, is that it would be better if ANAKIN remained an innocent who never leared power. Because at least as a slave he was happy and unspoiled. While as a Spartacus he became an Attila. Thus the entire story of Anakin, his fall and supposed redemption, is bogus. And so is all of the OT (which is the only series I consider halfway decent) and PT (which is utter garbage from start to last). >> Oh ok so the Civil War just meant the North was stronger. If the South had won it would still be OK to have slaves. Yeah, it's easy for you to talk all abstract about something completely dehumanizing and evil I think your views would be a little more realistic if you or someone you knew had ever dealt with slavery. Know anyone that's ever been raped? In some countries men aren't persecuted for it so it must be ok right? >> Sigh. You wanna know the tragedy of the Civil War me bucko? 1. We didn't want to integrate blacks into society in the North anymore than the South. And if you refuse to MAKE a man your equal, legally, by access to advanced schooling and nutrition, and ultimately by interbreeding so that no particular privelege remains unaccessible by class or natural advantagement. You are engaging in an act of hypocrisy to call him your equal or even really 'emancipated'. Once you do this, you create an inbuilt cancer of economic stress by which the 'total pie' is divided into separate ethnic sub segments by which each _individual slice_ is that much smaller. Thus, if you are unwilling to acknowledge what the results of your 'kindness' in abolishing slavery are going to require of you down the road, you are not helping ANYONE trying to live the lie of a 'separate but cooccupying' inequality. 2. The combination of steam tractors, artificial harvesting/threshing devices (the notorious Cotton Gin) and railroad economics would have quickly rendered the Southern Economy unprofitable as a slave-based system anyway. As things were, the 3 years of the Civil War gave the British an unbreakable monopoly as World Cotton Supplier using _Egyptian_ slave economics (including that which built the Suez Canal). While the sadly over-exploited state of Southern Soil more or less left them nothing to come back with, even once the war had been lost. Because Cotton _would not grow_ as it once had. Soy, Peanuts and Tobacco (the replacement crops) are NOT as labour intensive as (see _Places In The Heart_) cotton is in terms of either weeding, watering or harvesting. And once again, slave labor fades into nothing as a useful economic tool while U.S. economic growth -overall- is crippled by an internal conflict which let Europe grow so strong (and uselessly Imperialist /proud/) as to make WWI equally 'inevitable'. A 'Great War' which failed to learn even the most basic of rifled firepower lessons (the Gatling vs. the Trench system and long range artillery in general) and so slaughtered MILLIONS of infantry because the generals were TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND WHY they could no longer fight as 'honorable' combatants. The Difference A Jedi Could Make Here? "Stop and think gentlemen... Either integrate blacks fully into your society or return them to Africa. Morally there is no acceptable alternative as the poor breed like rats and so create their own hungry-mouth powerbase anyway. Economically, their base physical labour efficiencies will not stand up to the coming changes in agro of industrialization. And /by/ (the need for) skilled labor that is industrial manufacture itself. OTOH, a war with current weapons will result in the HIGHEST -white- casualty count of working age 'skilled' males of ALL American wars for the next 140+ years. Again, given that emerging technology will liberate black slaves anyway, all's you need to do is supply _1/10th_ the funds (say 100 million dollars) needed to wage this insanity of an internecine 'moral' conflict as economic guarantees. So that the Southern economy can convert peaceably, _in exchange for_ a guarantee of Union and Emancipation. It makes no sense to engage in war for sporting purposes. Because if you refrain from it, you will be twice as powerful at the turn of the century as you will otherwise (there was a major banking meltdown in the 1890's just like the late 1920's, largely as a result of 'reconstruction' debts and uneven economic growth) be compared to the rest of the Western World." Again, far from being 'out there, fighting for the little people', a precognitive Jedi would be /vastly/ overemployed by the RICH PEOPLE looking to -stay that way-. It then being 'up to him' to determine the internal moral causes and justifications by which their choices were made proximally ethical. >> Depends on what law you set yourself above? Hutt law? Don't make me laugh. Is smuggling medical supplies to refugees truly evil. Yep i can see how that person would definitely be a Sith. Heroes which I like to think the Jedi are supposed to be, try to make people's lives better. Not maintain the status quo everywhere. >> Smuggling doesn't stand on it's own for 'one mission'. It exploits existing infrastructure which may carry guerillas, drugs, medical supplies and chicken feed on differing days. Just read about Air America's actions in SEA if you don't believe me. In general, smuggling is a BAD idea because it must fight against the established government for economic as much as civil rights and the subsequent struggle leaves it little ability to give what a government TRIES to provide in the way of social services (roads, fire, emergency medical, education etc.) to the populace. 'Theoretically', an entirely free-market driven society in which freelance contraband generation and smuggling was only REQUIRED to enrich the local populace which it fed upon would allow that populace to grow in economic stature to the point where they could develop alternative methods of selfsustenance and so wouldn't NEED continued sponsorship. The problem here is that smuggling is both more fun and more profitable than conventional work:yield based activities and so, even if a drug lord (for instance) could be convinced to retire a rich man; he would never be able to keep those younger, dumber, poorer than him from using the one constant of _advantaged geography_ by which X gets to Y without being discovered and interdicted. i.e. The Young Turks will always want what the old bulls already have and will NOT want to do things the 'hard way' (boring, repetitive, unexciting) just because their economies say that that is now a safer option for a 40 year run into old age. >> Hmmm do I think practical people would take well to having their laws and cultures judged by an unnaccountable elite of mystics? Well ignoring the broad ignorance of that sweeping statement I would say it has to be judged on a case by case basis. First of all should the Jedi care if Hutt crimelords consider them to be a pain in their backside because they keep stopping their weapons smuggling? Hmmm you know what I guess not. Might all the people being adversely affected by it be grateful? Yes I think so. I am not saying the Jedi should sweep down as an army on planets and purge them of everything they consider evil and rewrite all the laws etc. I am saying if two Jedi stumble across two slaves on an Outer Rim world taking only the child because he is useful and leaving the mother behind is evil. No way around it. >> Proof. Proof is the puddin' here. If you seek to weigh something on the moral scales of 'just and deserved' punishment or reward, then you must establish that not only has a crime occured but what the history and sponsor of such activity is. My big worry would be that the Hutts, being evil little genius', would choose to come after lone Jedi using a system of cutouts to hire assassins/bounty hunters. KNOWING that they would fail. If a Hutt, deliberately or otherwise, made it impossible for a Jedi to work on a NEW world, because everywhere he went somebody blew up a bomb or sprayed down a crowded shopping mall trying to get him. You could greatly aggravate if not render 'persona non grata' unwelcome his presence and thus mission anywhere. This would require a decidedly more 'conjoined' attitude towards threats which might be supportable ONLY by a Jedi's "Okay, who did this" clairvoyant vision which showed the author but not the source or vice versa on a blast crater. A persecutionist view not unlike that which lead to our own little adventure in Iraq for example. And while I wouldn't want to fight a Jedi determined to come rip a chunk off. The fact of the matter is that the Jedi himself cannot afford to be wrong. Or -made to look that way-, even once. Because if he did, then HIS WORD would be no more reputatively worhy than that of of the Hutt him/herself. Maybe even less so among the latter's 'local fanbase'. >> Yeah. Jedi saving two slaves is like priests bombing abortion clinis. >> No. But that doesn't change the reality that Quigon exploiting Anakin (entering a child in a bloodsport is _wrong_ no matter who you are or how powerful your prescience is) led to him beginning the path of 'least resistance' by which Vader was created. And Vader did nothing so great as to counterbalance the hurt he caused. >> You try to argue with the most insane of analogies. The Jedi should have their own code. Maybe something along the lines of defending truth and justice throughout the galaxy. Geez, that'd be nice. Of course we can't defend them if their not on a core world. Oh but wait what if a cult arises on Coruscant worshipping the Sith and wants to separate? What should we do? It'd be wrong not to accept their different beliefs. <_< Whatever let's see what you want to say next to argue slavery isn't inherently good or evil. >> I think you will find that the most powerful of change-makers realize that there is no unified moral code. Because any hurt is always 'justified', by one viewpoint or another, based on past betrayals. Or future gains. The difference is that /overall/ a society can advance provided it doesn't become bogged down by the 'split hairs' of NOT knowing what the outcome to a given action might be. Because by the time a 'communal vote' can be taken on an act so horrific as to be 'globally inexcuseable' (WWII comes to mind) it is as a function of total loss rather than questionable gain. Such is why Lucas', Bioware's AND Obsidian's view of the Jedi as moral contentionists is incredibly crude and primitive. Because REAL Jedi, ones with the power to influence LARGE decisions would be working behind the scenes with the powerful individuals and governments that had the ability to change whole directions of development or injury. 'Miniquests' (find the serial killer/crime boss/rapist/Sith, heal a plague, help enrich crops, secure a critically needed shipment of X material or product) would then largely be a side effort. Like a hobby undertaken to relieve oneself of the stresses of 'real work'. As such, Jedi would be a shadowy elite. 'Rumored to be', if known at all. Saberist Out.

Lord Cecil, >> I made a few suggestions the other night and realized how much more there was to add to that list. So I made a new character to try and solo KOTOR, got two star maps before I decided I didn't like some choices, but in that time I compiled a pretty nice list. I've got them semi-organized, but its kind of hard to rank this kind of thing. Just know that this is not made for discussion or for anyone to disagree with me. This is more of a list for the devs to look over as a to-do list. The more they can implement the better the game will be. Its a little late in development for some stuff, but thats ok. Also note my old suggestions have been included here as well, for good measure. >> Quite a list. >> ***Delusions of Grandeur*** -More animations. At least three per feat (one for each level of flurry for example). When you advance to a higher tier still use the old animations, just make it random. Right now you see the EXACT same animation every time you attack if you just use feats (like you shuold) >> Definitely. But IMO, this is not enough. Each system needs to be based on a _kata_ which includes say 2-4 strokes to start. Then as you get better, MORE strokes are added. By learning from a master. Up and down a mat, lift blade, drop blade, step aside, turn, horizontal slash! Etc. etc. >> -Evil path is lame, fix it. Too much random killing for no benefit. Fallout 2, thats an evil game, but you guys should know that, follow your past example. Working for slavers, marrying some ho you got caught sleeping with, selling ho to slavers, then killing the slavers for loot/money is evil in its purest form. >> IMO, what is 'lame' is that you cannot be sarcastic (even if some characters only /respond/ to a 'hard hand and droll voice') without darksiding yourself. THAT is wrong. There should be 'fate moments' in every game where an action you take or an action you -inspire others- to take causes major LS/DS 'motivation' changes. But telling Atton not to try anything 'funny' when clearly you don't have the Force Senses to KNOW when he is doing so is actually kind, because it lets him know that the leash is short and if he wants to live, he'd better be nice. Since you don't necessarily want to kill him. IMO, true Darkside behaviors are those which can only be modified (for a Jedi anyway) by abuse of The Force. Using Force Persuade to 'compell' someone (screaming, hands to temples, "Get out of my mind!") to do something which either their interactive discussioin cue is not ready for yet (giving you an unfair advantage in the game but forever isolating you from further beneficial chat) or which they normally wouldn't do because it is against their character morals. >> -Too often I do something and I don't know why. On Kashykkkhskahk I did the entire quest in the forest about killing the legendary monster and getting the blade stuck in its side before I had even heard about it. That kind of thing happens through the entire game. >> Side quests are generally lame in a military setting because they don't alter or improve the status of The War At Hand. Look at Desert Storm. That was a battle decided in about 3 days after a 30 day air campaign. Assume that, with their technology, the Sith and Republic can do better. You CANNOT isolate major force or Force capabilities on 'boy scout' missions in that kind of a scenario. Because (given realistic travel times, on foot) you could literally lose 2-3 KEY systems before you got back from your first 'get granny across the street' sidequest. K2 is better because there is not the sense of urgency and you are in fact playing more like a hardboiled detective in a 1930's-40's Marlowe type drama. Talking to people to identify the threat and chase it down on a psycho serial killer type basis. Such doesn't excuse the notion however that you cannot _stand there_ while potentially another Katarr is happening because that too is _Darkside_ slothful/fearful behavior. I would -much- rather have a 'choose your own adventure' type scenario in which the plotroad forks and you can either choose the 'woods are lovely, dark and deep' or the more standardized escalation towards major boss-enemy or moral motivation challenges. Perhaps challenges where, for personal power, you have to be willing to lose major 'supporting actor' characters. >> -Side games should be important, challenging, and rewarding. Right now the only reward is money. First rework Pazaak like this. Each time you win the max bet increases (25->50->100->250->500 etc...), then each world the top player has a maximum that when you win your the champ of that planet. If you lose you have to start over. That prevents save/load/load/load/save repeat. When you become the champ on all planets you should get invited to a high stakes galactic tournament, that would be most excellent. It should be optional and the prize should be some newfangled item (special lightsaber crystal perhaps?). Swoop racing, ughh, it was better in SotE for the N64. Make it an actual race against people and follow the same champion everywhere/galactic tournament theory. Its good to have long time consuming OPTIONAL side-quests with big payoffs. Right now they are only another way to get money if you need it. >> Side games should be ALL ABOUT _money_. I don't mind high ticket items. But I should be able to sign up for **Republic** contracts (mercenary convoy/diplomatic escort, investigative inquiry, 'peacekeeping' etc.) which fill my coffers with perhaps 20,000 credits at a time PLUS 'loot' incentives on enemy bases etc. It is amazing that all these bad-boy enclaves, where there is absolutely no option for a conventional 'bank account' (which the government could order frozen) have no credits in a strong box type arrangement. AMAZINGLY BAD that is. >> -Doubled bladed lightsaber is utterly useless. Very minor extra damage at the cost of two lightsaber crystals? No way! I propose you let it carry THREE crystals. If you add enough interesting crystals that do more than just +Attack/Damage then it could be a hard decision to put three in one blade or four split up in two blades. This could be tricky to balance but I think its doable. Other options include giving it a unique feat set (dueling/dual wield/staff would be the options then) with special inherent bonuses over dual wielding. Could also increase its minimum (not max) damage to 8 or 10. A more challenging approach would be letting it hit adjacent enemies so you spin around a whole lot, would be a good mob killing tool. >> And so it should be. The light staff is the most worthless weapon Lucas ever came up with. You _cannot_ use it as a conventional staff because you can't shift to a 1/3rd grip point to sweep with. You can't defend your center adequately because the OBVIOUS vulnerability of that extended haft which you are offering up to be cut. You cannot, in 'conventional' grip mode, bring EITHER of the energy blades forward more than about 30-45` or 2ft which means if you stay right in his face and -step with him- as he retreats or advances to turn laterally (footwork, footwork, FOOTWORK!) he cannot 'stab' you through his dead zone at all. Lastly, if you are fighting two people, all's they need to do is step out to the sides and have ONE pin your low blade while the other 'stabs/slashes thru'. And you can't do _squat_ because if you bring the high blade around, the low one will yield to your enemy's attack and you will have your leg sliced out from under you. If you try and 'slide' the blade out of lock, you cannot defend against the second attacker at all. Light staffs are _worthless_. Especially given _Cortosis_ (which should be rarer than hen's teeth) a Naginata/Halberd/Pike type weapon makes more sense since you can either stick the blade out on the end of a long staff, protected by 'sword breaker' type minicross pieces. Or double the length of the blade ONE WAY and use it like a thrusting/spear weapon. With a haft also twice as long, such would make for an incredibly 'leverage advantaged' blade system. >> -Single wielding a lightsaber also sucks big time. +3damage/defense is worthless by the end of the game. Your going to have to increase those values to make it worth while. Perhaps some force powers could only be available if you have a free hand (lightning/grip/etc..) but that would be kind of lame and would piss everyone (including myself) off. It would make you decide between being an all out saber brawler or a force/saber combo though. >> And it always will until they develop kata systems which take advantage of the single wielders ability to increase leverage and shift direction from either a headon or sideon facing direction. Two blades are dangerous but they are also /predictable/ because you have to clear their arcs away from each other and your footwork on the 'leading' blade tends to compromise both reach and speed of the following one so that it is _very easy_ to get into a '1-2' system of attacks. A good single bladed fencer, especially one with 'live hands' can do a LOT MORE to move his body around the arc of a cut and attack the reverse or obverse sides of the hands and knees of a two-blader, 'through the gaps' of his defense. >> ***Gameplay Balance/Changes*** -Bash should either work first try or not at all. Slashing a door ten times is boring. If your strength is high. Same for persuade and other stat rolls. In pen and paper you only get one shot so its ok to involve the roll of a dice. In a computer game if its possible to do something but you fail EVERYONE will just load/retry untill they suceed. nough then give a little prying open / melting lock / slashing lock animation. It would also be nice to see a special animation of someone trying to pry open a door/melt a lock or something aside the regular attack animation. >> I agree. But then again, my opinion is that a saber should be able to cut through -anything- but an active force shield. It's just a matter of whether you have the TIME to do so. Certainly a Jedi who faces off against 20 _realistically_ capable gunners when he could cut a hole in the floor, roof or wall to 'move to the next room over' is a **fool**. That said, there is a 'door cutting gem' listed in the saber crystals for K2 and given that I've never encountered it in the game and my inventory list shows it as 'unrecognized' (you can mount it on a saber but ever after that saber cannot be further modded and indeed disappears from the equippables list) I haven't messed with it. The real danger of course is that if you plunge that much heat into a metal door and and there are ANY impurities or 'bubbles' of oxygenated gap, you will get uneven thermal effects which could easily 'spit back at you'. Gobbets of molten whatever, several thousand degrees in temperature. >> -Higher end grenades are too expensive. 750 for a plasma nade? 2000 for a thermal detonator (I think) Nice when your selling but thats far too much for a one time use item. >> Grenades are worthless. 1. Because nobody would throw rocks in a glass house if the 'great outdoors' was a vacuum. 2. Because they don't kill even nominally unarmored opponents. 3. Because they are NOT USED THE WAY THEY SHOULD BE. Namely, a grenade is a suppression weapon used to 'clear the way' for an assault or to prevent one from 'Chaaaarge!' forming up. You bounce them off floors and around corners to keep them from being picked up. And you use them _preemptively_ to avoid having to fight an overwhelmingly advantaged foe as you come through a chokepoint like an entryway. For all these reasons, I think that grenade use needs to be fully retooled so that you have ENERGY rather than (too like our world) frag effects and those energy yields are _specific_ to a living/droid target type with NO structural damage. A 'thermal detonator' might, for instance, act like the disruptor in JKO/JKA. 'detonating' the thermal neutron bonds between _carbon specific_ based atomic shell structures. And thus obliterating life forms. But not a steel hullplate which had a high silica content. Other things that need to be considered are repulsor powered systems. So that you aren't chucking a 4-6lb object but rather one which has only enough weight to defeat air resistance while exploding at 'chest height' (bouncing betty effect = more targets hit). And the use of distraction device/obscurrant systems which could either be a conventional smoke round or, perhaps through a 'sophisticated' holodisplay, actually REPEAT the background image so that your enemy can't see you walking up that hallway (or scooting across between doors etc.) NOT getting shot at it half the battle. And until you recognize a desire to have a contempt of engagement, with both random (true sniper attacks) and 'designated' opponents, until YOU are ready to begin the fight, you don't understand how grenades really are supposed to work. >> -Energy shields are useless right now. There are several potentially useful ones but they are used up far too quickly. Let them be rechargeable, fancier the shield the more energy cells it takes. >> Energy shields don't belong in the game. Period. Dot. NOBODY LIVING has them in the PT/OT movies. And the only droids which do look like they might weigh the better part of half a ton. Armor should be able to absorb 'class specific' blaster bolts (Pistols, Long Guns and LMG, HMG/Special Purpose Rifle 'heavy weapons') albeit knocking you on your behind at times. Cortosis should be rare. And Sabers should be able to cut through ANYTHING. Shields should not be present but _inertial dampening fields_ along with truly _power actuated_ anthropomorphic assists should be. To stabilize you against the mechanical (blast) effects of both explosives and energy fire impact. And to enable you to LIFT all the weight of the heavier 'assault/demolition' grade armor classes. The difference should be that you also have a 'LAR' or Liquid Ablative Reservoir that functions like our own STF 'liquid glass' armor in becoming stiff and resistant to high shear forces before evaporating and recondensing (at some total percentage loss) while disipating the massive thermal effects of blaster bolts in particular. People are IDIOTS if they think you can somehow 'take damage' (indicating the armor has been pierced) without losing the value of said armor. LAR-as-STF would change this because the implication would be that as long as you had goo left in the reservoir tank, it would both stiffen the outer plate and prevent it from slagging away. Of course having armor that 'glowed' from multiple impacts and 'steamed' as superheated goo vented off would also be a cool graphic mode. AND you could resupply your LAR tank by robbing the enemy dead. Giving you a reason to slow down rather than maintain the pace of the fighting (generally it is stupid to lose contact once made as it leaves you vulnerable to endless 'small ambushes'). >> -Repaired droids are utterly useless. They are scattered throughout the game, rarely do much damage, and always die fast. Make them a bit stronger, have them follow the main character (as opposed to patrol), and let them follow you outside thier initial area. In theory you could have 4 or 5 following you, and that would be awesome. Since they die relatively fast anyways it won't unbalance the game, but it would be nice to try and get all of them in the game (unlock another easter egg if you get so many at once !!) >> Disagree. You -do- need a 'Rigger/Decker' type character that can /exploit/ droids however; either to 'look around dangerous corners' (what the little hovering goober of Bao Dur is good for) or to execute a commando style breach into a specific part of a complex _separate_ from the main axis of the Party Attack and /support them/ by 'plugging in' and taking over a system. Nobody in their right mind would assault a Republic cruiser or Sith dreadnaught with 3 people. Because you would be facing anywhere from 500 to 5,000 (if it's an assault carrier) enemy. But something which can lock out enemy intruder security measures and/or even turn them against the their own would be a major 'force multiplier' advantage. Jedi don't need this as much because their 'awareness' should let them sidestep most threats and they would also be able to deal with things like depressurized hull segments etc., at least for short periods. But since (for some darn reason) everybody INSISTS on you 'learning how' for about half the game in which you ARE NOT in fact a Jedi; it would make sense to have a character which could support the main party using _throwaway_ (i.e. non character, only ability represented) droid support. Whether he has to steal the enemy's or brings his own is another matter... >> -Saber throw is kind of disappointing because when you throw it you get shot a whole lot by blasters. How about a third level that does a little bit more damage and lets you stop that incoming fire with your hand ala Darth Vader in ESB, that would be incredibly cool or it could be an innate soldier ability (hand blocking blasters that is) >> Sabers should kill or disable on contact. No matter WHAT armor you are wearing, it should break through. Such would keep the enemy from massing. And yes, the ability to 'deflect/redirect/absorb' (which is in K2 of course would be a 'nice thing'). So to would something that made multiple images of you. Or which 'convinced' the enemy you were standing right next to his fellow squadmate. Or indeed an acknowledged 'sniper mode' which let you attack from within stealth mode. Equally important in terms of dramatic plot device would be the ability to 'cut something loose' in a fashion which say dropped a gantry onto a Sith Ship keeping it from escaping etc. etc. >> -Flurry is too good. An extra attack for -1 attack, -1 def at level 3? Don't decrease the defence penalty, leave it locked at 4 or 5. Then its more of a kamikaze style attack, and would be ok for those non-force users who wear armor and there is balance in the force once again. >> Nonsense. No-penalty mode attacks when you are not wearing armor and -especially- if your opponent is wielding another 'unstoppable except by another saber' light blade; you cannot afford to be 'touched'. Even once. Flurry should represent the ability to divide the melee round into smaller and smaller segments so that you CAN expend your given number of strokes in the total round, in an even shorter period of time. The key here is to make the player AWARE of how many cuts he has per round as a function of a counter or meter which he can then 'tune' to defensive or offensive emphasis. And then understand that /whenever/ he is out of strokes, that's it for that round and he'd better have won or be disengaged and running. >> -Power attack is worthless. +10 damage versus flurry which gives you another attack that is guarnteed to do more than that? No contest. Different feats should have different advantages, right now there are very clear 'best feats.' >> YAW MAWN! But only because it is ridiculous to leap up in the air spin in a somersault and come down on your enemy. Rotational energy is efficient in and of itself but adds little or nothing to the PENETRATIVE FORCE of a blade because of the vector (slash not stab) that is implied. In any case, if you want to (say) destabilize the plasma containment sheath so that you can put more of the sabers energy into the target -thermally-, you do what Kenobi did in Ep.2 which was spin the blade, not the human body. People are not birds. You leap up in the air and you cannot 'flap wings' to alter your vector any further. This, added to your immense target area, leaves you _vulnerably predictable_ for Waaaaaay To Long to be worth it. Asian fighting arts use leaping maneuvers because they have MUCH lighter, shorter, body statures and were often facing mounted or armored threats with little more than hands, feet, and farm implements. No trained sword-warrior in the '6ft tall class' willingly loses control of his direction and balance by removing his feet from the ground. FOOTWORK wins about 60-70% of all fights. >> -If combat is initiated immediately after combat against a tough boss then auto-save! (Just make it an option) Going through several minutes of dialogue only to immediately die is depressing. >> Agree. Sometimes I forget and...it's depressing and immersion killing to realize too late that I am now going to have to 'relive all the moments leading up to my mistake'. A more potent tool to punish the foolish would be to LOSE PERMANENTLY party members who do in fact die. >> -Take out 'You must gather your party before venturing forth.' This isn't BG2, allies can't be left in obscure locations to take advantage of the game, they follow you (albeit slowly when you use knight speed), has no reason to be left in. >> Yes and no. Again, the optimum method of fighting a 'party war' is to have X sit at Y location while ABC move through a complex 'somewhere else'. Because it allows you to hit multiple 'schwerpunkts' of critical center of gravity and thus take on harder foes through a series of staged developments. In such a for grins instance, you should be able to 'switch locations' to use the technique or advantage you need most (like calling on artillery as a grunt and then /becoming/ the guy servicing the mortar or howitzer tube to deliver the remote fires). IMO, it would be better if the code was smart enough to recognize when a given character was either: 1. Dead or Too Badly Wounded to join up. = Lost forever or NOT if you /choose/ to leave another character behind to defend and/or medevac him back to the ship. 2. 'Detached Support' in a way that didn't require him to be with you, literally. He will make his own way out when the time is right. 3. Just Separated. In a fashion that allowed for teleportation catchup without the 'form up party before next level' nonsense. >> -20 seconds is too short for force powers, how about 30? Anymore might be a bit much, but 20 is definately too short. >> No. There is a saying I was taught awhile back: Skill is the ability to do one thing Really Well. Power is the ability to do many things with Skill. Grace is the Wisdom to know which thing most needs doing Right Now. Jedi Masters shouldn't be /that/ physically different from their (younger, quicker, tougher) padawan/knight pupils. The difference is that they should be able to 'summon and set' 2-3 Force Powers to act as a constant-on ' background program. It might be clairvoyance/precognition to show a 'vision' when you are about to meet a large enemy or simply take a road which leads to the whole party being DEAD. It might be 'absorb energy bolt' so that you cannot be snipered (from 100-1,000m not '28'). It might be Cloak to hide your presence altogether. Or Speed to let you jet from location to location. Or 'Valor/Shield' to help improve the whole party's performance. Even 'grenade and physical weapon suppression' (disruptors and other projectile devices as well as non-saber melee weapons). So that when someone threw a grenade or pulled a slug-thrower trigger, the projectiles snapped back in their face or jetted off in a harmless direction. The BIG DIFFERENCE being that _it doesn't take Force Points_ and so has no reason to be 'time limited' (since reactivation would only be for 'nuissance value'). While you have to be /careful/ which always-on powers you choose, because, while powerful, they also have some limits. The difference between a tank and a man is that the man can only duck the _muzzle index_ of someone pointing a rifle at him. By and large an armored fighting vehicle _just doesn't care_. Jedi Masters should be able to remain calmly centered and mission focussed during the height of battle because they are no longer reflex junky's so much as 'tanks' that just are not worried about the 'little things' of conventional threats. >> ***Random Game Stuff*** -Cut scenes are lame, I don't want to see the ship flying onto or off a planet, show something exciting >> Agreed. Except when it is an element of 'sneaking in under a cloaking field' (which would be far more useful/less blatantly obvious to a smuggler than milgrade shields and guns IMO). Cutscenes should 'set the feel' of the coming mission. >> -On Taris the side-thing where you help a dancer is abyssmal. Dancing in general looks reeeally bad. It could be fun little DDR-like easter egg though. Then if you go dancing on all the planets it can unlock DDR dance routines to the classic music (Imperial March, Duel of the Fates, etc..) Easter eggs are good, and that would be absolutely hilarious. >> Agreed. But only insofar as it isn't a functional element of the mission. Indeed, all of Taris is a waste because the 'only point' in your being there is to illustrate the power and lethality of a TOTAL WAR environment. Yet once you have been the motive for the slaughter of millions, you never LEARN from your mistake and knuckle down to stay AHEAD OF the ongoing conflict at hand. Preventing more such disasters by /avoiding/ the 'boy scout' missions. >> -Shiny aliens are good, take advantage of that more! They look exponentially better than regular textured critters. >> Ainhhh. >> -Party members should walk around mines if they can see it >> Ainnh. A real mine is one which is lethal to as much as 10-20m. Usually they are overlapped and cross-rigged to form 'spider webs' of cross-coned lethality which /shreds/ a grouped target after you trigger a mine at the top of the killsac and all the _hidden_ ones behind/beside you go off at the same time. It is because of these abilities that mines are generally classed as area/mobility denial systems because they require you to carefully 'look for the threat' using dedicated sensors (another reason to have droids) or a 'mineplow' type system of deliberate activation by a heavily armored/explosive juggernaut. NONE of these things are really applicable/compatible to the 'personal quest' (dungeon crawl) type environment of KOTOR because the general A#1 rule of 'mine avoidance' is _don't go there_. Don't open boxes and lockers. Don't go near defended areas such as the entrance to a facility or a chokepoint in terrain. While the use of mines 'indoors', in heavily trafficked areas, is also ludicrous because, especially if they are autonomously activated, it grossly inhibits the functionality of the work place. Indeed, most modern autonomous mines have such sensitive trembler switches that they cannot be safed, manually, at all. They have to be blown in place either on their own (time delay) or by exotic, robotic, vehicle-mechanical arm emplaced charges. For all the above reasons, most infantry will tell you that THE BEST mines are those which are _highly_ specific (have a camera/seismic/acoustic sensor on them or supporting them to identify the target) and preferrably _command detonated_ so that no attempt to 'sneak by' or disable the mine as a function of probing or clearance techniques works because you simply blow it up in their face as they sit there with their stick probing around. While loss of control of the position (rapid vacate or defeat) will not leave a threat which endures for decades to innocents blundering by. IOW: With no real crippling damage modifiers (lost limbs etc.) and nearly instantaneous damage repair, mines are worthless irritants except for their relatively low 'resale value'. They should be pulled from the game, IMO. >> -No saving in combat, thats cheap. >> Never really had time to this one out. When you fight, fight, don't grope the keyboard. >> -Big scary alien monsters are badly needed! How about a full sized rancor when you aren't level 5? >> Yeah and nah. WE are biggest, scariest, monsters. Our ability to create organized VOLUMES of fire (a single squad, firing in three round burst, can put out 30 rounds per second. And on the order of _900_ rds per minute with a 2 second target servicing lag) is incredibly, deafeningly, terrifying. You only need to hear a bullet zzzzzzhaaap! by your ear once to realize how 'technically inferior' we are to the tools of death we create for roughly 35 cents apiece. OTOH, the existing 'monsters' are ludicrous looking. It is _so lame_ to make comments like "Onderon has some of the most vicious predators in the known galaxy!". And then show me a critter which looks like a pig crossed with a bullfrog as example. Even the Jagget or whatever it was called, looks more like an ankylosaur than anything truly alien-interesting. A comment here: Speed and Sinuous Strength beat raw bulk for fear power. The creature has to _functionally_ be lethal or it's laughable. Such is why the Alien's of Geiger fame look so nasty. Because they are rangy and raw and lean. But they also have the POWER of restrained strength and predatory intent. >> -If you hack a computer for an area map the parts you haven't visited should be greyed out. I generally didn't download them because then I couldn't tell what rooms I had visited. >> Agreed. A Force Ability to show the room next door would also be nice. Again, Visas supposedly had 'Force Sight in first person mode' but I never could make it work. >> -Display damage to energy shields, make it yellow text or something (optoinal) >> Booooooh! The only things which should have the weight bearing ability to lug around a shield should be heavy combat droids. THEY should be the 'lead tank' in serious fights. Everybody else should concentrate on hitting the enemy at critical points (head and joints) before they are hit themselves. A 'briefing' system which showed each armor type you were likely to encounter on a planet and where it's vulnerable locations were, along with the targeting/precise shot and 'finesse' feats for _long gun_ accurate weapons would help here. Again, ONLY droids and maybe wookies should have the ability to lift heavy repeating blasters which can take out a threat in 1-2 shots. The rest of the party must score _accurate_ fire and/or GROUP their shots on each target to 'overload' it's defenses. Of course if you drain the bad guys LAR tank instead of 'nailing him through the eye' you don't get as much residual refill of your own armor. >> -Display damage dealt BY allies to enemies, I like to know whose dishing out damage and who isn't whilst I micro my force powers (agan, make it an option) >> Booooh! I get SO SICK of seeing HP attack variables and XP kill variables in battle! First of all it's not the kind of data you NEED to be functioning on. And it clutters up the screen. And it reminds me that this is 'just a game'. Give me a 'bodies and blood trails' count at the END of the fighting so I know how much _total_ XP I've got. And then allow me the option to assign that XP equally, by kills per party member or by _weakest_ party member (first) allocation. THAT is real power. >> -Pop up boxing showing exp/light,dark points gained and what not should NEVER say "Items Gained!" Just tell me what it is! Also, when talking with someone if they say they have a reward and you have the option to decline or ask more how about they just say what they are giving? >> Don't care. If it's the end of a dialogue 'storytelling' round, I will always look in the inventory to read the item description (powers and applicability) anyway and too much detail only clogs the screen. If it's the middle of a _running_ gun battle (i.e. the fire and maneuver never stops) I can't afford to be distracted anyway and THAT is infuriating. Warriors are not Thieves and Grave Robbers. At least not until the battle is truly over and you are looking for intel to bring back. >> -More puzzles! So long as they are optional they can even be pretty challenging, always good to spice up the mix and avoid some monotony. >> I agree with whoever said 'no more math!' crap. Also, you are a JEDI. That means that your principle 'weapon' (for defense and knowledge) is The Force. As such, learning new Force powers and indeed 'trialing' your way up a level should be a function of entering a 'save the falling ship!' final encounter whereby you match a mental pattern (swirling screen saver overlay) or...something. >> -More bosses/unique character with fancy death animations are needed. Its a *good* feeling to kill an extra powerful character, and a nice in-game cutscene would be a suitable reward. A blade through the stomach, blaster bolt between the eyes, these are all good exciting things to see. >> Agreed. But only if it's not so artificial that I feel every 'special' kill must come as a function of a cutscene movie. SOMETIMES the greatest kills are those which happen 'randomly' in the middle of a hard fight so that while he's twitching, you turn to deal with the enemy at hand. Long, drawn out, death-song type monologues stink of melodrama. >> -If you have more side-quests like the murder mystery on Dantooine and puzzle stuff why not randomize it? Keeps the game interesting the second time through, and it is always an optional thing to do so why not? Same for some of those math based puzzles >> Only to the extent that Jedi Sentinels should have special 'tracking' and 'lie detector' and 'balanced Force' (mercy vs. justice) Powers that let them execute these kinds of missions better than Guardians or Masters. Otherwise, it gets to be too much like Humphrey Bogart playing Clue. >> -When not in combat lightsabers should dangle at hips, blasters on sides, rifles strapped over the shoulder. Its just silly to see a jedi running through a city with a saber in each hand. >> OVERWHELMINGLY IN AGREEMENT! A relaxed threat is one that isn't worried about your ability to 'nail him while he isn't looking'. A man standing their with his weapon clenched in his fist looks nervous. Which inspires you to believe you could, maybe, 'get away with' nailing him. Lightsabers on a belt say that the "Jedi are never /that/ unaware...". And increase the utility of having a precognition power which shows you are -about- to be sniped from building X. Giving you the iajutsu advantage of 'quick draw' turning to MEET that threat while perhaps Force Wave pushing (and holding) the enemy at your front up against the wall. All without violating the 'only for defense' law. i.e. it adds another, REALISTIC, level of gameplay to a character who is fighting a mafia type threat. And must spank them _as a Jedi_. By turning towards the given sightline and activating their saber to quickly block the incoming threat, BEFORE the trigger is assassination-pulled (i.e. you could also do this as a function of being somebody's body guard). >> -When your evil you lose a few allies, how about throwing in a couple of characters you can only get if your evil? >> Agreed, though I'm not sure I like the choices available for 'falling' as it were. It would be much more heartwrenching if you lost someone you CARED about and /that/ is what drove you to be callous and uncaring to others. As a Darkside precursor. Certainly dialogue options should change as your 'mood darkens' so that eventually it is harder and harder 'to be nice to people' from among the the available conversation options. But sarcasm and humorous insight into peoples failings and manipulable personality characteristics should not necessarily be a Darkside cue in and of itself. Not if it's the natural way the PLAYER (not his character) would choose to respond to someone being a minor PITA. >> -There are some items in the game that have no use (sith lightsaber, special fire grenade) and thats not cool. I always thought throwing the fire grenade at the frozen acid should melt it causing anyone standing on top to die too. Also there is NO reason why the sith lightsaber shouldn't be like any other one. It would have been nice to be evil and use a sith lightsaber instead of a normal one you know? >> Don't care. Most of the 'power ups' serve only to render what should be _personal_ 'role playing' into a coldly rendered world of mathematics and 'statistical combat'. Such is not cool. Because it means you can slug away at a threat and beat him with technology rather than personal cunning or skill. >> -More light/dark only items. Light jedi definately got the better ones (armor/crystal) so make sure its not completely lop sided again >> Don't care. It is the _situational ethic_ response to encounters that should drive you towards (unforeseen but still "I shoulda known..." LOGICAL) final fates. Objects are objects unless they have some emotional response or rational use which makes their ACTIONS 'good or bad'. >> -Was there supposed to be a point to the Czerka corp? Everyone talked trash about them but they never really had a point. Run out of time perhaps? I always expected some long story filled side quest with them...and it never came. >> I wondered this too. I figured it was the 'nameless threat syndrome' in which the devs couldn't figure out how to make a corporate evil strong enough to be dangerous because they were SMART, rather than just thugs. The obvious options here are to make things like the Manaan Kolto mining/refinement/export process a 'three way tug of war' with Czerka standing in as the middle man for the Fish People (sorry, don't recall their species name) and you 'forced to negotiate' depending by not allowing them to steal from both sides, blindly. Again, given how badly the various 'court' scenes were, I doubt if the devs have it in them to do a variation of the _The Firm_ (Czerka vs. or 'secretly working for' The Exchange?) theme. >> -Force sight at least sounds useless right now (if its your 2nd time through then you know whose evil and whose not). Let it display armor/health/stats of enemy units, like awareness in Fallout. >> Yes, for many reasons. 1. It looks like 'color coded thermal'. Given all the dumba$$ 'fashion wear' I'm currently forced to put up with to convey some very basic (force power protection and ability modifiers) capabilities, I actually wouldn't mind if I had some kind of 'visionic modifier' to the conventional vision modes in-game. But magic should be different. Personally, I prefer the current setup of a 'blurry edged vision' indicator as an ambush or powerful monster (time to stim up and light off the shields!) cue. 2. Feats/Powers Should Chain Together For Special Purposes. So that when I have my 'All Seeing Eye' on, I should get a warning that a sniper is out there, sitting on a rooftop. And THEN I can convince him to take a little nap. Or throw him off the edge. Or blow his gun up. Samething for a bomb hidden in the mayor's limo. I 'see it' based on what WILL happen (boom) if I don't stop it from functioning. And then I do (fuze the detonator circuit board together, change the chemical composition of the explosive etc.). Even in 'conventional combat', when I have Master Flurry and Knight Speed/Jump selected, if I SEE the threats (location) I should be able to enter a room at Warp Speed and use my multiple-attack option to kill 3-4 opponents in the 'first round' of a fight. Leaving only 2-3 left. 2-3 I can beat, 'normally'. 7-9 I cannot. 3. Decision making. No matter how 'wise' you are, you can only make decisions based on the knowledge you have to hand. While it shouldn't always work (The Force should mask the outcomes from some decisions and make others warp in ways whose obvious visual indicator is NOT what you expected: X enemy is dead, but so is Y friend etc.) there should be MANY times in the game when the choice between flying off to a new world, completing the quest on the current one and shifting your focus to yet a third should all depend on 'seeing' what outcomes you have to choose from. Such would help with the sense of 'zig zagging' between a few planets to accomplish several overlapping quests rather than being stuck doing things linearly, one by one (very predictable story telling.) THESE DECISIONAL OPTIONS of overlapping ability and choice are what Force Sight should represent. >> Looks like thats it. Its late so please excuse all grammatical and typing mistakes. If I can find the PC version for cheap then I will give the game another run through and may add to this list. Its enough to give you guys some work for the time being. Again please note that this points are NOT up for debate so don't waste your time telling me how I'm wrong about something, because I'm not. >> Always nice to meet someone who is confident in his viewpoint. You have some interesting ideas, I just don't know how applicable they are within the computation requireements, development window (2-3 years) and size of a game. The problem being not so much technical in my opinion as the certainty that games manufacturers WANT you to beat a game, fairly quickly, without being really satisfied. Because then you will quickly come back to try for more. Given the number of flops for each commercial success (starts out 50-70 bucks, goes to 10-20 dollar bargain bin and _still_ won't sell), I would think they would learn that it's better to be head and shoulders above the competition than floundering in a sea of indifferent sharks but that's just me. There may also be larger factors involved as the slump in U.S. economics will continue to drive the 'up or out' element of superior gaming platform requirements into longer and longer (lower and lower base threshold) windows between upgrade or replacement. If you need a gig of RAM and a 4GHz processor atop a high speed 50-100GB harddisk transfer capacity to do all that you would like, you may end up severely disappointed. I know I sure have been. Saberist Out.

Alan C, >> The engine and combat mechanics: The KotOR games are not swordfighting games, nor were they meant to be. In an RPG, the character knows about swordplay, but the player does not. If you want tactical swordsmanship, look to the JK series. And adding long-range combat would have been just silly. Even if Obsidian wanted to just throw out the Odyssey engine and start from scratch with something like the Unreal engine, that just wouldn't look like Star Wars. Which is, you know, the point. >> This is where you are wrong. Jedi Knight was a fun FPS which broke down as soon as you got a saber because the inability to independently control Facing (always turning to meet your opponent 'head on' means you don't have to worry about footwork. It also means that your REACH is about 1-1.5 _feet_ shorter than if you turn sideways and extend your arm out laterally). Pacing (how fast you fight with a given expenditure rate of total strokes). And Spacing (if you fight on the outer 1/3rd of a weapon, you can take on opponents stronger than you because they cannot 'lever' a blade lock until you eat their edge. But you also have to swing across a tip arc which covers as much as 4-6 FEET of swing and is therefore /very/ tiring). All meant that you were reduced to basically a 'run and slash' type methodology. Saber-X helped this a /little bit/ by giving you more independent blade cuts but in turn it required MORE SKILL to combine mouse angle and key board leg movements to 'set' the attack pattern. OTOH, JKA and JKO were not games of any sort so much as interactive movies with automated (big thumb) saber fighting. _MY SYSTEM_ is based on a combination of the two. In that you 'know', from the stance and weapon hold position of the character if not his clothing color, what Kata it takes to beat him. Sith low-level (Assassin, Commando etc.) training not being as 'flexible or complete' as that used by Jedi. Because they fear giving away powerful techniques that might leave them vulnerable. Facing and Spacing and Pacing are keys that can be controlled independently. But are also integrated within the Kata System of cuts. Which, 'as you earn, so do you learn' to expand upon. While STILL using them as basically preprogrammed (1 thru 0) selectable attacks. In this, you can have /wildly/ 'sophisticated' attack forms (30-50-100? Even a 'creator tool' to make new ones at the player's own preference). And each one executes fluidly as they do in JKO/JKA. BUT. WHO you attack /first/ (second, third) is still -tactically- important. Because if X + Y have 9 and 7 strokes and you only have 9 yourself, you _cannot_ afford to be locked up fighting both of them, when Z comes around the corner with another 5. 'Swordplay' doesn't exist. It is desperately hard, sweaty, /exahusting/ WORK. Just watch the original _Three Musketeers_ or _Rob Roy_. But once you master it to a given level, it tends to (especially in battle not foppish 'duels') become instinctive with ingrained psychomotor pathways and 'muscle memory' leaving you much more time to choose /how/ the battle goes rather than -what technique- specifically you are using. I am far from so foolish as to think that you can emulate a system as complex and dynamic extreme a physical activity as swordfighting with a keyboard. I _want_ the cool animations that make it all 'look like a movie'. But I want to UNDERSTAND how those animations _will kill_ a specific opponent so that I can know that, at least in my head, I am in control of what techniques I employ. As a function of what tactics /between/ individual enemies I can use to improve my survival. >> General storyline: Your main objection boils down to Obsidian not writing the story you would have. And you actually have a couple of workable ideas. But proclaiming that "K2 was supposed to answer the question of 'why'? Why be an emperor in charge of an endless herd of sheep when you are a minor god in the things you can do on your own." displays impressive arrogance. What K2 was supposed to be about simply isn't your call to make. >> Perhaps. But it is wrong to ask 50 dollars for a game that falls so short of what it promises. If a snake oil salesman promised cures for everything from the common cold to lethal diseases and the only thing that happened was the town got drunk and he 'got away' (slithering into the night) then that is one thing. Obsidian and Bioware made MILLIONS on KOTOR and K2. And yet they failed to fix what was wrong initially (a 'statistical' rather than /tactical/ fighting system). And they 'stayed til morning' on the dialogue based story that never went anywhere. To steal a line... "Get a rope." >> Having said that, I'll agree that the motivation for seeking out the Jedi Masters in K2 is very weak. Kreia: I'll accept that it's possible for her to have been Arren Kae, though it's not very well supported by evidence. But to call her motivations selfish is preposterous. She's willing to die to further her goal of shaping the Exile. (Do Sith ethics permit that?) And if she considers herself expendable, how much more so would her lesser servants be? Also, she is a Darth Treya; there have been others. Kreia did not create the Academy. She found it, presumably after the battle of Malachor V. >> Kamikaze's were willing to die to further their ends of an Emperor who was himself a hollow figurehead. As a function of this, they NEVER ONCE attacked a ship en-masse. Never ONCE had someone standoff or even "if you don't find a carrier, come back!" to _return_ with an after action report. And so they ended up one-man, one-ship fighting most of the battles from the PI to Okinawa without any REAL chance of victory. What's more their dogmatic willingness to forfeit life based on a 'Samurai' ethic of having no VALUE for those who chose to surrender (all the atrocities in Malaysia, The PI, Wake Island, China etc. etc.) made them seem so un-human that many historians believe the hysteria of the atom bomb attacks (we would have won in another 6-10 months based on strangulation of their economy and attacks on their food sources) was a _direct result_ of their seemingly rabid desire for 'to the last man, woman or child!' battle lust. In the end a seemingly noble willingness to sacrifice themselves 'for a cause' thus brought about even worse horrors upon those they nominally _should have been_ set to protect. I play lightside 90+% of the time. From that perspective, Kreia brought down a 'Samurai's' fait upon hundreds of millions of lives. To further the goals of what (K1) set out ot be Revan's desire to _protect_ those lives is contraindicated to the point of being a contradiction in terms. This IS Obsidian's fault because rather than make Revan a standout character in his own right, changing _in the eyes of the player_ as he is recalled through Exile's memories. i.e. Obsidian can't afford to follow in Bioware's footsteps so they utterly assassinate Revan by reinventing his motives a _Darkside_ based, while excusing their actions based on introducing their own hero, Exile. Yet in doing this, they pull the same idiocy that Bioware did which was leaving the central character himself so devoid of driving motive 'who you are' that Exile is, at the end, no less a phantasm of Kreia's delusional behavior. Than Revan was a 'belief' held by the likes of Juhani, Mission, Canderous and Bastilla in K1. You _do not kill BILLIONS WITH A B_, in needless conquest of their independent lives, only to 'suddenly redeem yourself' through a few minor Boy Scout quests. Nor can you support such actions as Exile OR Kreia by making it seem like your own slaughter of innocents mimics or justifies his actions. If Obsidian wanted their own hero, they could just as easily have crafted a niche in the SWU for him. Humble or otherwise, it is better to be your own man than to stand in the shadow of someone you are not, trying to steal his limelight. Grafting one atop the other just leads to a beast of many heads with ZERO 'continuity' inherent to knowing any of them. >> The war against the True Sith: We can't argue coherently about this since we don't know what's going to happen in K3. But it's likely that this will not be "war" as the term is commonly understood. No fronts, no armies, no positions. DS Revan had armies of Dark Jedi. He deliberately threw them away. Therefore, armies of Jedi are not valuable. (The implication is that Revan developed new insight after K1, since before his reprogramming he had been attempting to create such armies.) Edit: possible alternative explanation -- DS Revan has gone over to the True Sith. >> Fine. In military doctrine there are two kinds of 'auxilliary missions'. Force Enablers. And Force Multipliers. An enabler is a preexisting condition (a UAV to find targets or a stealth strike fighter to knock out a radar or command center) that MUST be happen before a lesser (capable) mission element can accomplish their own objectives. A Force Multiplier acts /within the execution window/ of a given mission to add to or increase the effective capabilities of a given warfighter. An ECM pod is not a force multiplier because it means losing a weapons pylon that could otherwise carry more fuel (to hit targets deeper in enemy territory) or another bomb to improve the weight of fire or number of targets struck. A dedicated jammer plane that acts as either a standoff or penetration escort IS a force multiplier however because, in trade for it's specialized platform cost, the fuel needed to send it along for the ride and loss of bomb carriage by ONE plane, it renders all aircraft around it safer and more lethal. Given we have already seen (in the movies) how little Jedi can do to effect the course of 'real wars' (on a soldier to soldier basis), it can only be that they are 'Force' Enablers/Multipliers who open a hole for or ADD TO the mundane grunts ability to fight. The difference then being how many such specialized assets you have available. Because, again, 'real war' is about not fighting merely in one place but in many. And if your Jedi is not on the field, he is not able to support the mundane anyway. Such is a critical consideration when you realize that creatures such as Nihilous would _still require_ 'full military force' assets to deal with his planet-killing abilities on the level of 'first you must find before you can kill him' level of phantom Osama Binh Laden wombat hunting. And yet, without a Jedi to cancel out his 'wide area death field' abilities, those conventional forces would not be able to close with and annihilate him, even once he was pinned. THE ONLY ARGUMENT which could be made for the 'better a few good than many average' (Ultra Jedi, Jedi, Mundane) is that 'there can be only one' Force user in a given battle. That ALL available Light/Dark power tends to flow through a single polar avatar and there is not enough left over for anyone else to use. Somehing I don't buy given the size of the Galaxy and the nature of 'two Jedi, one Sith' battles in the movies. >> Gender representation: It's highly amusing to see the same arguments that feminists developed fall into the hands of whiny white males. Sauce for the goose, eh? Though as a white male myself, I'm kind of embarassed by this sort of thing. Thousands of years of male supremacy trickling out like this? >> There is no doubt we live in a feminized society in which 'whiney' socialization skills exceed those of the traditionally isolative combattant/hunter 'physical' male. However; what your counterargument is truly endorsing is even worse than 'my opinion'. Namely that if all power corrupts, blacks, hispanics, orientals and females in general are still too stupid to occupy a position of power from which they are MORE THAN shunted-aside victims of the 'superior males' (the whole scene with Kreia getting brutalized, followed by her 'indignities' comments later on, -screams- of rape as the only accepted 'gender norm' means by which females can suckle at power like Mynocks on a Conduit but never TAKE IT or indeed MAKE IT, for their own.). Don't accuse me of primitive reasoning when I am working AGAINST the blatant sexism by which Obsidian and Bioware -each- present females in 'situationally compromised' positions. >> Sion: He couldn't really perceive Kreia, so couldn't kill her. But he guessed what she was up to. This explains why he didn't finish her off. When your assumptions start to give you trouble, it's time to reexamine them. >> Sigh. I put any three 'normal' men in a pit with Bruce Lee or Jean Claude Van Damme or (name your favorite martial artist) on condition of 'only a single survivor will be thrown a rope'. And you can lay pretty good odds on the Martial Artist being the winner. And probably sooner rather than later since his edge will diminish with hunger and weakness eating into his mental as much as physically focussed superiorities, like anyone else. OTOH, I can put TEN MEN into that same pit with a half starved Tiger and you'd better have a ramp handy. Because kitties can climb paw over paw. WHY make a female deliberately weaker (blind) and then humiliate her with _mental_ incompetence (her 'vision', no better than his that he could strike blindly and amputate a limb while she could not even add a new scar)? Only to leave the audience 'Forced' to believe that that Tiger, living for others pain and locked in a _coat closet_ of sealed space. Didn't manage to finish her off. Bahhh. You denigrate the Jabberwhockey, you denigrate the Hero sent to kill it. >> Malachor V and WMDs: Not really sure where you're going with that. Our last 'industrial all out attrition war' ended with the use of WMDs too. And the moral aspect of mass destruction doesn't change whether the means used is Force-based or standard technology. Either way, it's power, and death, and responsibility. >> But that's the whole point. WHY is it that an army of 'ordinary' Jedi is no better than a Just One? Indeed, WHAT is it about Jedi in general that lets them compete in a system of systems based logistical/industrial attrition warfare environment to begin with? In Bastilla it is clearly an ability to reach out telepathically and amplify the sense of 'oneness' (cogs unite!) in Mundane warriors. In Exile is an _empathic_ skill to sense 'the battery itself' which is The Force that -every living thing- bonds itself to the universe with. The difference being that of understanding the binary code by which a computer acts to execute programs. And the base electricity by which it is empowered to do so at all. These are PERSONAL things. Things which 'make a hero a hero'. Instead of 'history as a dry record'. If you cannot recognize the difference between compelling drama (emotional/moral struggle of the individual with whom one can identify as a person) vs. the 'grand struggle' which HAS NO personality. Then you aren't getting the moral and philosophical basis of _story telling_. Kreia's baseline moral motivation is that All Power Is Dangerous. But where it _should have gone_ was towards a Player-as-Audience realization of the conflict inherent in determining "Is it in the use of personal power for larger goals that the danger of faulted perception leading to skewed objectives is corruptive? The exploitation of larger (than self) power for personal goals that is wrong? Or is it one and the same with only the 'in moment must be balanced against shifted outcomes' situational ethic that matters? As is, the hero causes suffering and yet is 'let off the hook' at the end (by vacant story telling resolutions) on the notion that it's 'not really his fault after all'. And that's just wrong. Because however 'entertaining' creative dreaming is, it should also never fail to teach you a lesson about yourself. The Mass Shadow Generators then are just a last-second DEM means to rescue the player from facing his own conscience in the face of a pyschopathically delusional Kreia whose own morals have no 'point' of reasoned endgame. >> Mira: There's a lot of outright babble at the beginning of your reply. At first I thought you were on drugs when you posted it. Anyway, which confrontation are you referring to? Under Jek'Jek'Tarr, Mira is justified in believing Hanharr dead. And at Malachor V, she can kill him at the player's option. But no argument at all with the throwaway nature of the M5 sequence. The whole ending of the game is deeply compromised. (I presume you're up to speed on the cut endings... if not, there are plenty of threads and a restoration project.) >> Unless you quote me the exact nature of my psychobabble AND the reasons for you disbelief or misunderstanding, I will assume you 'get it just fine' and this is merely the cheapest way you can whine you way into a counter argument. FWIW, I assumed that (if there ever was an original, linked, idea-package on where KOTOR was supposed to go other than to the bank with my money) they were creating three archetypes for an Herald. A Shapeshifter. And a Goddess Encounter/Guardian character rather than have simply a single 'hero'. The first to open the way into Campbell's 'Special World' of self discovery. The second to upset the player/audience perception of what the nature of that gateway if not the man who unlocked it by circumstantially different 'witness recollection'. The last (AT LAST, a deliberately -dominant- female protagonist!) a means by which the divergent male psyches can be either thrown off the path of a false quest (traditional dribble of the egotistic male 'humbled' by the all-seeing femme). Or forced to merge their attitudes in achieving it before returning them to the 'normal world' of post-quest resolution. Since Kreia is no longer alive to fulfill this role, the 'firey-independent redhead' character stereotype seems a far more dynamic (barely self-balanced) mode to work with than either the stiffly unresponsive Handmaiden. Or the easily dominated 'lushly evil' Visas. But if so, they did everything they could to subsequently make her seem _incompetent_ which is something NO hero mold should allow. Again, this is so incredibly (misogynisitcally) 'ironic' to me because it virtually yells out that someone on BOTH development teams can only view a strong female as one who submits to even stronger males. From the moment Hanharr is in a position to shatter her spin with a simple twitch of his wrist (no trained bounty hunter would let such a dangerous threat within TEN FEET of them, unrestrained). To the time when 'all bets are off' and she STILL fails to kill him in the Arena. To the moment when (admittedly I, myself) failed to kill him on M5 (because I _hoped_ that her's would be the 'civilizing' influence that kept Exile from becoming ferally lethal like Sion. Or natively dishonest in a psychotically manipulative fashion like Kreia). ALL these things point to a woman who is in fact _weak_ 'only until it comes time to TAKE THE PLACE of the male she has beaten. Mira is not being set up to fulfill an honest to goodness female heroic arc. She is just another 'gender normed' (nobody has gonads, everybody is femm'd out) blah narrative tool that...goes nowhere. >> Jedi bashing: yep, it's hard to not get the sense that the Jedi Order has failed in the KotOR games. But this is just like the films. >> The sadness is that one of the many (false) assumptions you can try to take away from Kreia's 'live life without The Force, rather than through it's wisdom'. Is the notional ideal that she is creating a smarter, stronger, less inhibited OR overreacting Jedi. When in point of truth, none of the Jedi Masters of the films is as strong as the weakest of the Jedi Padawans in the game. Thus she has (somehow) castrated the connection by implying that it is a corruptive influence rather than an 'all encompassing' enlightened one. Something I find to be a particularly BITTER pill to swallow because right up to the last, she is using The Force to do everything from break free the Ebon Hawk to telling Exile 'what he should discover for himself'. And never once is the hypocrisy of her nihilistic suicidal superiority complex brought into question. >> R2D2 and droids: Destroy his behavior core and anything you rebuild is a new droid. So yes, he can die. Sure, he took a shot to the head. But who says the core's in his head. >> Fair enough. I still believe that Lucas uses automatons to isolate himself from risk of audience and/or ratings 'disapproval'. And in turn the /attitude/ that this has spawned is one of self-indulgent refusal to understand the CLASSICAL REASONS for story telling sacrifice and tragedy. Namely that the power of victory is both stronger and more bitter-sweet when it is 'in memory' of those whose souls live on only in your heart. It's one thing to make an automaton take the dismembering blow. It is another to turn humans /into/ behavioral automatons. Because they are never put in a position to Have To Choose. That you then have endless iterations of Deux Ex _Machina_ intervention as both the ultimate symbol of evil. And life's salvatation from it. Is just... not what the first film's argument against technologic reliance was about I guess. >> And bringing up the fact that nobody important dies in SW films is true. But again, not relevant to anything. Does this thread really need any more subjects? >> It was a thread I started to illustrate what is being done SO WRONGLY in the KOTOR series as to need complete reconstruction to be saved in this or any followon Jedi/SWU based game. As such anything which is relevant to those mistakes is applicable. And I included the 'machine replaces conscience at too many levels' notion in my opening argument. >> I'm going to have to call BS here: "It is clear that Lucas is too frightened of his fanbase to do more than play 'sop to the saps'; killing ONLY non-living creatures (imagine if every droid soldier that was effectively cut in half at the waist by a saber on Naboo and the orbital battleship was in fact a human)." This completely muddles up two distinct concepts -- the death of a creature and the visual spectacle of its death. Lucas doesn't kill characters, whther droid or human. He butchers cannon fodder right and left, both droid and human. Due to ratings issues, the droids tend to die less cleanly than humans do. But that's just a tendency. Humans are dismembered too -- Luke, Anakin (twice!), Jango Fett, the bar thugs in ep. 4. >> I forget what the exact standard is (I looked it up in an argument about the use and abuse of 'PG-13' in _Aliens Vs. Predator_ forum of IMDB) but it's clear that you cannot show an excess of 'red blood' and you cannot show /the act/ of dismemberment, without bumping up the ratings. This is why ESB was shown the way it was as a 'scenclipping' between holding the saber and having the hand flying away AFTER. It is why Ben lunges and filips in one shot and the arm is lying on the ground in the next. Even in the scene with Maul there is OBVIOUSLY no 'wound' inherent to even a hairline cut in the Sith's clothing. Yet, from one frame to the next as he falls, the distance-blur doubles and his body separates, cleanly, without sign of massive bleeding or organ descent as the supporting mesentary and cavity encapsulate/structure is lost (diaphragm and ribs compresse to contain the lungs etc.). ROTS stands a fair chance of being worse if the multiple leg amputations and severe burn issues are true and Padme does indeed suffer major brain and/or spine damage as a function of being slammed into a wall. Yet the fact remains that even /they/ will be 'post accident scarring hidden' by the masked visage symbolism of the gargoyle Vader suit. What I am saying is that THERE IS A MISTAKEN DISCONNECT. Between the reasons Lucas hides and/or limits his 'kills' _in an MPAA_ environment. And the ones which should NOT equaly apply to a game. Namely, you can rate a game 'teen' and not chance horrifying a 8-12 year old. You may also save and go back to 'alter fate' if you don't like the way things turn out. AND by virtue of activateable dismemberment (JKO but not JKA) and 'clever storytelling' you can make death seem terrible because of _what you lose_. Both in personality and in _capability_. Compressing your choices through the loss of force options by which to accomplish a goal 'more cleanly'. Yet: "Angus was a brave man, we will miss him tonight. We will miss his sword..." Applies only if Angus is indeed GONE. And as long as that doesn't happen. As long as you confuse a movie need for a 'happy happy joy joy' ending with a _victorious_ one in which there is a /chance/ for happiness to be found again. You lose one of the deepest meanings inherent to ANY War Story. Namely that it /hurts/. And for those who have made the ultimate sacrifice, that 'hurt' is inherent to never getting a chance to be 'happy' in this world, again. Such is the sad sack endgame that Lucas has cut out for himself with the guaranteed OT/PT flop he has engineered for himself. Because 'knowing Vader' is knowing a small minded, spoiled, brat. Who (the Galaxy) would have been better off remaining a slave because the ONE EVIL he killed, was not so strong as to need his 'special' attention (the ROTJ ending was pathetic). While the notion that the 'happy ending' of the OT is justified on a -technical level- of 'this came /before/ that?' filmmaking craft is utterly laughable. The point I am trying to make in this instance is that it is _better not to go there_. Attempting to link stories through different creative teams without any real coherency of motive or arc. When you could break away from ALL assumptions. And simply make _K3_ free of the foibles which have ruined it's parents. And the movies which begat their twisted moral sense. >> You seem to be simply assuming that droids aren't people. There's no evidence of that in the SW universe. Lucas certainly doesn't think so. The droids were originally going to be major characters. (Whether a droid is capable of moral choice or not is an interesting side-issue). >> A droid whose basic behavioral functions can be externally alterred 'without say or guilty conscience afterwards' is not human. Lucas, whether intentionally or otherwise, illustrated this with both the R2 flight into the desert. And 3P0's misadventure as an SRS 'changed' battledroid (actually grew a pair, whodda thunk it). It will be FURTHER highlighted by the notion that one or both are mindwiped to 'hide all secrets' of the kids at the end of ROTS. Any time you can erase a personality 'without damage' of creating and overlaying another one atop it, you are illustrating a NON HUMAN, UN-PERSON-AL characteristic. You could not inflict such soul-altering effects without severe damage to the mind and body of a human. That is what makes them valuable 'as is'. That is further what makkes their 'never the same again' /deliberate sacrifice/ a more deeply felt gift. Whether they survive their risk or are lost to it. >> Personal shields: Good point that we don't see them in the movies, and so they shouldn't exist in the KotOR games. Blame BioWare, not Obsidian. They set this up in K1. >> As stated above. Who Cares? Make a game the way YOU want it. So long as it is an improvement over what came before (and I would be lying if I did not admit that I have as many if not more 'issues' with K1) continuity doesn't really matter. If only because the notion that a _20,000 year_ technology base has never improved beyond the level of OK Corral Gunfights and Saber Duels is itself ludicrous. In particular the best Combattive Force Power out there is likely Force Enlightenment. As it auto-activates all your 'best' Speed, Shield, Energy Absorb options while doubling the fluidity and lethality of your Saber work. WHY THEN can I not hit a similar 'go/no-go' switch on my ARMOR to enable all available stims, activate power amplification of movement and/or bring online _inertial dampeners_ to make the physical impact of blaster hits more withstandable. Ahhhhhh, you see, you _don't have to have_ shields to make your armor 'better able to withstand hits'. Or indeed to make Combat More Fun. You just need to have an ability to make _staying on your feet_ after the impact more believable! (Look at the Millenium Falcon /staggered/ by ISD hits on her shields and tell me that these are simple 'light beams'). The thing which should replace shield-technology and 'explain' how armor works without being effectively destroyed with hits of energized plasma that strikes with MEGAJOULES of force and heat is this: http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fict...asp?NewsNum=108 http://www.argee.net/DefenseWatch/SillyPut...Soldiers%20.htm In that, imagine you are wearing a suit which uses 'something like' STF. But in a form which 'explosively' evaporates and forms a countershock (like reactive explosive tank armor) to prevent both physical breaching and thermal overload of the outer plate. As part of the supercooling process by which this paste returns to a superdense but viscously mobile 'sludge', then being that some element of it is vented off. And so for each hit you take, your Liquid Ablative Reservoir or 'LAR tank' _goes down_. And for each enemy body whose kit you rifle through /after/ a kill. You get a refill on your STF sludge tank, from his. If there is time. Such would rewards the player who follows the soldiers code of 'short wars, not sport wars' (no dancing about with melee weapons in a gunfight or fighting against overwhelming odds 'just for the helluva it' for instance). Even as it makes the pursuit of 'more accurate fire from a bigger gun' a realistic possiblity for both YOU _and_ YOUR ENEMY. As your ability to connect with each other without 'critical damage' (statistical bull crud) as a constant dice toss is relevant to your own ability to control your troops engagement level and exposure (break contact, press to a finish tactical command options). Indeed, once you achieved a basic armor level, suit defensive AND offensive capabilities (weedeater type scythe blades built into shoulders for 'close combat' anyone?) should come as _automated_ addons that did things like provide powered exoskeletal anthropomorphics (necessary for all 'heavy' class systems) so that you didn't suffer a mobility penalty. And the inertial fields I mentioned which made being spun around by a 'lucky hit' less likely to take YOUR sights off your enemy. Even as it rendered the process of robbing the dead less ugly/unbelievable (during the middle of a literally 'running' gunfight where maintaining contact is critical to avoiding ambush, what IDIOT stops the parade?) and more practical (no 'suddenly' finding Unobtanium Type B armor on a dead Sith Private!). I -hate- having to waste Melee rounds 'pumping up the jam' on combat modifiers when ONE BUTTON 'break glass in case of emergency' internal hypo and combat system activation should be the norm. Even as I _despise_ the notion that once a fight breaks out, I am STILL going to be in an endless series of 'fight-pause-restart' modeals. That just destroys all sense of the 'urgency' that is battle. Especially on spaceships with perhaps a couple THOUSAND crew for me to wade thru. Saberist Out.

JediHuh, >> what fun would the game be if you couldn't walk through an army of sith by yourself laying waste to them with your saber, and I got my light saber on my first planet after telos so I had it for the majority of the game. >> I didn't. And given that, IMO, the Saber IS what makes the Jedi who s/he is as a status symbol 'class weapon', making me fight for half the game with conventional swords that look like cavalry sabers on steroids lessens 'the moment' when I first start acting like a Jedi again. I also found it bitterly ironic that I couldn't get one for ages but then every refugee on Nar Shaddaa started handing them out. Waaah-Waaaah-Waaah-WAAAAAAH. That said, you are NOT a Jedi when you start. So it would be nice if, either you had to be saved by (what you thought was) one to have a sufficiently 'cold water, large bucket, moment' so as to wake up to the threat of what was now chasing you. Or if you had to use alternate means (Dark Forces = GUNNER) to survive. i.e. if Cloaking Fields depend on proximity and 'displayed weapon' as a function of technology and not Force Morals intent, why can't you use a grenade and run away? You certainly should be throwing them from distances too far and/or too much 'around the corner' broken LOS to be detectable. >> if you didn't like the game thats all good. but some people play video games to get away from reality. if everything was as realistic as how you want it your character would be dead as soon as its sees its first oponent that hits it wiht a sword or shoots you. >> Indeed, I would rather the notion that Armor IS 'blaster proof' to at least some degree. And similarly capable against mechanical weapons like vibroblades. But I want a saber to be like liquid death. Killing or incapacitating 'on contact', with every touch. With that combination of sneakyness and smarts (and a high level JEDI in your party, which is what the robes that Kreia wears, if not the Code by which she acts should mean) you should be able to survive long enough to get off Peragus. I would also add that you should be 'eligible for government contract' rewards (taking the various log tapes from Peragus station would make a lot more sense than the notion that there is some kind of 'wreckage' left to analyze after the entire Asteroid belt goes up in a manner similar to the appearance of Peragus Prime). MONEY is the key to success in all the KOTORs. Because cash buys tech. And with tech, you can leverage a small force against a larger one. Until the point where you ARE a Jedi. And can walk through armies like they weren't even there. >> man take it easy its just a game. and just because someones opinion of love doesn't match yours it doesn't mean that that persons view is wrong. >> I'm not suggesting that it does. However; your own viewpoint, intentional or otherwise is that you can't have a 'realistic' Star Wars environment without either making it impossible to win. Or impossible to enjoy. My counter to which is that if it flows along in a fashion by which your subconscious is 'secretly agreeing' with all the things that are happening; then it is EASIER to immerse yourself in the moment of gameplay. Even as it is more dramatically intense because you FEEL the terror of consequence inherent to real defeat leading to real death. As an example: Say that the Sith Soldiers do indeed disable the Hawk 'just like that' (Massive Ion Charge over the engine bays or a simple Grenade up the exhaust). Kreia isn't with you, having disappeared 'someplace' behind (and you _decided_ not to wait any longer as a function of making your dash to the Hawk as the docking port depressurization alarms go off, telling the Sith _exactly_ where you are and what you are doing.). Having 'made the best decision possible' you are still captured. And end up being hauled before Sion at the front of a mass of his troops when...she appears. Why did she wait to save you NOW? Maybe because she KNEW that the Ebon Hawk could never escape a Republic Cruiser (tractor beams and heavy cannons which DON'T MISS). Maybe because she wanted you to lick the taste of Raw Terror that was the result of a dedicated Loner and Runner facing off with a Sith Lord determined to rip out your heart and eat it while you watched. In any case, she does what _you_ want, 'wailing away' on the conventional troops and forcing this living Terminator back and back yet further. So that you can then escape while he twitches on the ground (electroshocked or death fielded into 'possum mode'). As MORE Sith troops respond to the alarm on the Cruiser. And she can't finish him (or maybe she just doesn't want to) before you are forced to flee. NOW, you get to disable the Cruiser and/or set it to explode. Before stealing the Sith Marauder (those troopers had to come from somewhere and I doubt that they could ALL be cloaked and not detected by the Cruiser's Republic 'away team' sensors) as a NEW SHIP to play with. Why is such realism a 'bad thing'? IMO, the Ebon Hawk looks like a Cylon Raider that had a nasty collision with a set of woodclamps. It's painted like a U-Haul trailer. It is _MASSIVELY UNCOOL_ to look at. A /true warship/ (milspec sensors and weapons systems, not merely cobbled together 'smuggling' civil tech) could be ever so much more interesting. Even as it gave you a visual metaphor for 'breaking away from the last remnants of KOTOR 1'. Rather than trying to Bondo cover the Frankensteinian seams of two such disparately themed storylines. ALL because _I_ gave realism. And _YOU_ got the Jedi you wanted to be. HAD TO BE. To overcome the level of /accurately/ 'threat modelled' enemy capability present. Saberist Out. P.S. One of the coolest moments in the game comes when Kreia walks across the bridge to the Trayus academy and all those Sith Assassins appear around her. Only to fall dead, without a single 'sign of cause'. At her feet. THAT is **Power**, because it doesn't come with a flash and a bang. But silently and irrevocably.

My problems with this are as follows: 1. KOTOR 1 Already Blew It. In terms of having a Dungeon Crawl 'party' epic in a time of Total War. It gets to be difficult to have a reason for Revan to be off futzing about on his own, doing 'little jobs' of good or evil. When what is REALLY NEEDED is his focussed command of /thousands/ of troops and ships. Star Wars Galaxy already having been done... 2. KOTOR 2 Screwed Up Things Even Worse. By effectively rewriting Revan for the convenience of making Exile just like him. Instead of /highlighting Revan/ through memories of how the Exile saw him. You can have a Lancelot for Arthur. But only if it doesn't come down to evil Guinevere messing with his head for 'reasons unknowable'. Kreia was a great opportunity that turned into a terrible mistake IMO. In that Exile is as little know as Revan ever was and so now K3 must 'unravel both' while trying to finish what should ba a fast-paced endgame. It didn't help that the 'Sith Lords' turned out to be utter wusses. 3. As other's have hinted, K2 left such a bitterly banal ending ('heading off into yet more danger' without having really explained the current one) that /heads would roll/ if it turned out that there was nothing to K2 but a rushed development to have 'dollars by Christmas'. Given that Lucas' entire franchise is (IMO) hanging by the thread of ROTS, I don't think he can afford many more howls of outrage at the 'commercialism for it's own sake!' level of a private Empire of such shoddy dreams. CONCLUSION: KOTOR 3 is a done deal. Sealed endgame based on an unexplored universe and characters that were retarded in their development as personal as much as moral symbols. I myself would /vastly/ rather have a _NEW VISION_ that went even farther back into time. WHY are the Jedi called 'Knights'? WHERE does their huge powerbase within the Republic come from (especially if they can be so readily annihilated, only to rise again). HOW did they first discover sabers and The Force? WHAT was their role in bringing a Republic out of a series of (presumably) feudal monarchies on planets once held by the Rakata? DID they in fact help instigate interstellar communications as a function of say 'scouting hyperspace routes'? Make the Jedi functional. Useful. And let the 'mysticism' develop around how they changed from X into Y. Warriors/Explorers/Bounty Hunters into Mage Adepts. Then show me what FIRST schism'd the order into Sith and Jedi divided camps. NOT based on the Comic Books (which are what, 15 years old now?) But on a new vision. In particular don't bore me with details of a war whose outcome is indeed known and whose protagonists are not so particularly impressive as to require 'someone special' to be seen to defeat them (one of the few mistakes of having a Canderous/Mandalore type character in both games was in bringing the Mandalorian identity too far out into the bright light of everyday judgment of character, motivation and capability. Leaving them to look like common thugs...). Saberist Out.

The key to differentiating 'respect' from snobbery is that -at some point- (in Western cultures) you would be given permission to use the working title if not the name of the person as a functional courtesy followed by a deeper bond of friendship or 'mutualism' in respect. Assuming you stay medieval in your name associations there are still a LOT of alternatives to the 'squire and knight' concept. As I recall, the Norman and Saxon systems went something like: Norman Anglo Saxon Contemporary Sergens Dunno Sergeant or literally 'servant'. A man at arms. Vasseyur Vassal Squire Miles Theign/House Carl Knight. Baron Sheriff Captain Of Knights. Comes Dunno Roughly a Local Territorial Mayor or Supervisor Dux Eorl Lord What makes the above system both elegant and complex is that it reflects ownership. Not of an individual but of his -service- through land parcelling. Most people think that a Lord's property was entirely inherited or won through conquest and thus simply set by a series of boundary markers on a map or stones on a hill. This is not so as European land has been 'competitively prized' for a LONG time and the only way that the higher royalty (princes, kings, emperors) could maintain control was by awarding 'honors' of land grant. Total agro and tax output of the Lord's fief is still HIS responsibility to the King but obviously, if your central enclave ('caput' is actually the old Latin for capital) is separated by /miles/ from little allocations of land holdings, you need an intermediate level of management. Given that times were NOT safe and the natives were NOT friendly, this translated into being the Kings Land Agent and Tax Collector (literally 'relief' of rents) and as such, you needed to have both a standing force of knights around you to act like big, loyal, MEAN dogs. And a further means of local intelligence gathering and delegation of responsibility by whose guarantee of an 'honorable retirement' (past combat age) you could keep the commoners (Serfs, Villeins and Cottars) under-thumb. This dual need then led to the system of lesser ranks in turn for 'fiefed' (in fee) obligations of equipped soldiers in times of trouble. At the lowest per capita level of topheavy ranking. This later came back to bite several later Kings of England in the nether regions as the obvious weight of martial and taxable income support was often with the lower aristocracy and such could result in embarrassing instances of 'backwater diplomacy' forcing the issue on things like the Magna Carta. Socially, it allowed you to refer to a man as 'Lord' and yet /know him/ as a Duke (respect for real power). Without getting your honor trodden on using the whole 'master' thing. Only commoners had 'masters' because only they, excepting the Freeman, were specifically a piece of property owned by the land or by the type of work they did on it. Given that the SWU uses terms like 'Knights' so frivolously and grants 'The Order' power and wealth fit to make a Templar jealous, it would have been /vastly/ more interesting, IMO, if the Jedi Society was indeed based on a feudal system of psionic gifted 'families' controlling local star clusters as a function of being the most flexible and simple method of command government structure there is. Indeed, before the Republic itself formed, I would bet that that is exactly 'the way it was' (controlling bloodlines if nothing else). Such lack of depth and 'universal blase' attitudes about the root meanings of words is what irks me about much of the movie OT/PT Jedi methods of address, in that there is no graduated levelling of rank as an _incentive system_ when Jedi training ends and field service grants the experience necessary to start giving priveleges rather than merely always making demands. In _We Were Soldiers Once_ Colonel Hal Moore ALWAYS calls his functioning second in command 'Sergeant Major' in front of other ranks. But alone or in combat situations, he is not too proud to use the man's name. Plumley I think it was. And he equally made it clear that this was 'his man' and answerable only to himself. So that there would never be a case of his voice being heard from a Sergeants mouth as being 'in conflict' with say a Major or Captain. What the Sgt. Major says, goes. Because the Colonel would say it if he was there. THAT is _respect_. To paraphrase another famous movie quote: 'Though it doesn't mean we're taking long hot showers together' there is nothing more "Wow! I made it!" special than when your senior /teacher/ invites you to address him as an equal. Because you've earned it. No matter what your 'rank'. In the East, such differentiation of capability in service from vocational 'mastery' superiority of teaching rank is less well defined IMO, and it tends to create artificial barriers that particularly combat soldiers cannot live with for very long. In the field, the command necessities and dangers of acknowledged rank must be observed at all times (snipers and the need for a defined chain of command etc.). But the artificial formalities tend to fade fast if it's a tight unit. It's a matter of trust, really. As such, the JK system of Apprentice, Charge, Journeyman, Knight, Master, Lord sounds vastly more appropriate as -personal- markers of 'enlightenment'. Than the 'padawan/knight/prestige classes' they invented as some kind of mixed useage system for BOTH the achieved progress you have made. AND the rank which you have been given as a function of that accomplishment. In the best militaries and particularly special ops, capability not age or resume` commands. Seniority, and titles then just tend to be distractions that people pay lip service too only to 'get along' with the REMFers. Saberist Out.

Fortran Dragon, >> One thing I would like to point out is that your way of setting the Y-Axis is a tiny minority. Forward == up and back == down is the default way the mouse works on the computer. Leaving it that way works *for* the vast majority of gamers since flight-sim gamers are a minority even in the hardcore gamer groups. >> Actually it's more about vectors to any trained pilot or 'motive/kinetic thinker'. (warriors and phaselines of all kinds) Where an arrow is pointed that is a push ALONG direction of travel, creating closure. Where the base of the arrow is vee'd that is a retardation or retraction of motion maintaining current orientation or separation. Thus, when I push forward to chase something and the 'on the horizon' (negative superelevation) and find that I am instead displacing negatively (in 2D space on a monitor) 'away' from them. I am in fact working against the psychomotor skills which are ingrained into a hunting/combattive mindset. >> Yes, it would have been nicer if you could set that mouse options separately for the mini-games, but Obsidian went with the one that would be more 'natural' for the casual gamer. Who is, after all, the bulk of the gaming crowd. >> Actually I _did_ go back and adjust, from the options menu. But IMO, as long as you treat the game like point and click with a mouse arrow rather than 'grab the grips and slew the hose the muzzle over them!' you are missing the immersive sense of controlling, not an interface. But a mechanical weapon. Indeed, this is why I would prefer a setup that functioned like a B-29 optical gun director. In that, if I am going to move crosshairs _independent_ of muzzle swing, it behooves me to be able to see the gunfire arc out to hit targets not directly occupying my line of sight. Since I am 'managing the weapons system' at that point, moving a centroid around makes more sense from the Windows Interface viewpoint. >> Oh, from an XP viewpoint, letting those Sith on the Ebon Hawk was a better value. ;-) >> No single soldier, without magic and/or active defenses (forcefields, mines, stun barriers, more sentry gun type miniturrets at his command) could take on that many equivalently trained (and far more current in their competencies) soldiers and win. If only because the FIRST thing that forced entry teams learn is 'isolate and lockdown the escape mechanism'. Which means disabling the Hawk's engines. The second thing they would do is 'make their own door' (create an unexpected breaching point to avoid channelizing defenses). And the last would be to 'never to go where a grenade or DD has not slaughtered before you'. i.e. _Where you can't see_ and/or are caught transiting another chokepoint. How disabusing of the notion of competent opfor is it to find an unused grenade on multiple corpses and ask yourself 'why didn't they pitch it'? I want to win battles because I am smart. Not because the enemy are idiots. And the entire Hangar Combat scene with all those Sith (why didn't they come pouring in like Storm Troopers from the very start and 'secure the facility' through lockdown of all it's entry/exit points if Sion wanted me so badly?) just began the long descent into totally broken immersion, IMO. Saberist Out.

Kaleb Bombassan, >> Regarding Kreia, I really think you've missed the point. The important thing to remember about her is that she loved Revan more than anyone. And if she thought Revan's plan was to save the Republic by going to war then going away (cf wikipedia articles) then Sion and Nihilus (not the true Sith, according to her, just vandals, like Malak), then she would have them killed. She was never afraid of them as such. >> You cannot truly love a man and not believe in what he does as a function of his own beliefs. _IT'S_ _JUST_ _NOT_ _POSSIBLE_. And given her contempt for the Jedi's pompous moralism, there is no possible excuse for 'allowing' Nihilous and Sion to obliterate whole populations of future Force Adepts AND the only 'trained' people who could possibly form the cadre element of those who would have to stop the True Sith if Revan failed. Because she was his backup plan. His insurance policy against himself, but not his beliefs, failing. Why? Because _Revan_ did not believe in letting the small overrule the large. Remember, in KOTOR 1, his established motives for joining the Republic forces were always for the 'greatest good'. K2 merely warps those to make it seem like his fear of the Mandalorians was secondary to his fear of a coming Sith Invasion. If you want to make me believe otherwise, then you need to explain, IN CONTEXT, who Kreia was, what drove her to 'befriend' (take as apprentices or join as an apprentice herself) the likes of Nihilous and Sion. Because Revan NEVER would have. Even more specifically, you need to tell me WHY she would think that not giving a few whispered words to a Republic Fleet intel operative ('Disciple' comes to mind) about the Trayus and even Telos Academies would not be 'a good thing' for destroying the cannon fodder level Sith grunt force even as they did unto the Jedi. She clearly knew about both of them, albeit at different points in the game. In the end, there is no justifiable excuse for her actions. Because Jedi, even 'morally faulted' (and playing Lightsider I seemed to do okay) or 'second rate' (powers and feats) compared to True Sith; these would STILL be a better resource of potential fighters to stop them than anyone else. Given that it TAKES TIME (10-20 years) to raise those warriors to a level where even their base competencies are sufficient to be considered a Jedi Knight. And further given that all the 'drill instructors' who did that training were also being slaughtered (razing to earth the standing generation and sowing with salt the fields of the next). Her actions could not be said to have been done for the greatest good. Even simply as a function of 'admiring' Revan. Again, as I have stated elsewhere, the ability to work with what you've got. To forge alliances and 'kill my enemies by making them my friends' is probably the most relevant differentiator between 'good' (altruistically manipulative) and 'evil' (selfishly uncaring for any but one's own view, thus willing to let heaven fall or hell rise, so long as they don't interfere with one's own perception of reality). Indeed, given the level of power politic and religion that Kreia was playing at , it doesn't /matter/ 'what your motivations are'. Because simple survival is always the ultimate baseline from which you can begin again to state your case, make your political moves, plot your conspiracies and takeovers. And if she COULD NOT defeat Nihilous or Sion, on her own. Then what hope against an army of them, trained from birth? IMO, Kreia, by not annihilating the Sith Serial Killers personally. By not slowing down the progress of the Jedi Civil Wars and/or establishing a 'hidden Academy' of her own for those dedicated to maintaining a belief system beyond the selfish. Only proved how twisted and warped her 'love' for Revan really was. That she would try to create a mimic of the man rather than a continuance of his beliefs. Given that even this is merely an older phantom shadow of the (OTT obvious from the get-go) 'frozen love affair' psychology being portrayed between Exile and Atris; I cannot even call it particularly unique or dramatically innovative as a function of what it contributes to the plot arc. THAT being the worst offense of all: Pointless Expositional Storytelling. Saberist Out.