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Malhavok

Many Plot Points (spoiler city)

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Ok, this will probably qualify me for uber nerd sainthood someday, but I played through KOTOR 2 a few times as a character with high intelligence, wisdom, charisma and persuade skills as well as concentrating on trying to get as many dialogues with all the characters as possible by maximizing influence with them.

 

In any regards, I have come up with a few salient points about the plot that I feel are pretty firm. That is, not much conjecture on my part. Of course since I have my own opinions on events that happened or are revealed in the course of the game I may put forth my own interpretation, but I'll try to keep the facts prominent and my opinions towards the end.

 

All that being said, here are a few things that I've managed to collect about various people in the game as well as backstory:

 

The Exile

 

- The Exile was a General in Revans fleet during the Mandalorian wars. He is also responsible for giving the orders to put into action a sort of doomsday device called the 'Mass Shadow Generator'. This device killed alot of people, both Mandalorians and Republic forces.

 

- The Exile was never very strong with the force prior to the battle of Malachor V or even up until you actually take control of the PC. In a flashback between two Masters (Vrook and Zandar ? ) they comment on how The Exile is a medocre student of the force, but for some reason the other students follow his lead. It is espoused that this is 'natural leadership' abilities - This is partly true, but also there is more to this....

 

- The Exile has an ability to form force bonds. This is quite possibly his only real major 'force talent'. These bonds allow him to influence people quite easily, but also allow him to feel some of their emotions and pain. In a conversation with HK-47 it is revealed that Revan knew of this ability in the Exile and to some degree even pitied him. The exact reason why is not known and its possible that the pity part is pure conjecture on the part of HK-47. Assassain Droids are not known for being impartial bringers of the truth ;)

 

- During the battle of Malachor V the mass deaths of Jedi, Republic and Mandalorian soldiers to the mass shadow generator created what is constantly refered to as an 'echo in the force'. The entire 'echo in the force' theme is very prominent through the entire game and if you do not pay attention to it, you miss quite a bit of the story. For some reason that is not fully explained The Exiles ability to form force bonds allows him to 'listen' to this echo and the sound of the countless casualities at Malachor V was so intense that in order for him to survive, he subconciously cut himself off from the force. Frankly, don't believe a single word that Kreia says to you at the beginning of the game about how you were cut off from the force. She is only intent on blaming the Jedi Council for this act because she wants to see them brought low.

 

- Through the act of cutting him/herself off from the Force, the Exile is very unique. Kreia supposes that the people do not use the force, but the force uses them. To her the force is a form of slavery. Hence her interest in the Exile. When she looks at him and sees the 'death of the force', I think quite literally what she means is the death of the forces control over people. There is more about this when I talk about Kreia.

 

- When the other Jedi look at the Exile and see a 'wound in the force', what they are observing is actually something I like to think of as 'the force in reverse'. Instead of the force flowing through the Exile, it instead is being consumed by him. The Exile is very much a different version of Darth Nihilus, in that they both have the ability to absorb the Force from other living things. Darth Nihilus is obviously consumed by his hunger, and it eventually leads to his downfall (does this portend things to come for the Exile?). There is more of this when I talk about Darth Nihilus in particular.

 

- Depending on if you play light side or dark side KOTOR 2, you will see different scenes or exposition about the Exile's force consuming abilities, but it basically amounts to this: As an explanation of why the Exile keeps getting stronger and stronger the more foes he kills, the reason why is because he is absorbing their Force and making it his own. As a dark-sider you see him literally do this to the Jedi Masters he defeats, and as a light-sider this is expounded upon by Master Vrook in the final confrontation with the Jedi Masters on Dantooine. It's quite funny to think about it, but even though the Jedi seem like they are 'betraying' the Exile, in actuality they are not . There is a little subtle difference between the light-side Exile and the dark-side Darth Nihilus and that is basically what amounts to 'good intentions'. And as we all know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions... Darth Nihilus probably started out like The Exile as well, consuming a little bit of force here and there from people he slew, eventually working his way up to entire planets. Also remember that by the time Darth Nihilus is wiping out Visas race, he essentially has no control left. he needs to feed on these people. The Jedi masters quite possibly see the same end in store for the Exile. Not quite the betrayal it seems when you look at it that way eh?

 

Kreia/Darth Traya

 

- Kreia is a manipulative bitch. Everyone pretty much agrees on this, the thing is not many people delve deeply into why she is that way. Part of it is because of her obvious Sith teachings, but also another big part of it is that she is playing a huge game against not only the PC, the Sith Lords and the Jedi Council but also against the force itself. To her the Force is not just a tool that Jedi and Sith use for opposing purposes, but the Sith and Jedi are tools of the force that it uses to achieve a sort of 'balance' in the universe. During the final battle with the PC on Malachor V she admits that to the Exile that 'you are beautiful to me, for in you I see the death of the force'. She also laments on how the force controls people and uses the Sith and Jedi as pawns.

 

- Kreia strangely enough is also a very sympathetic character if you take the time to delve into her motivations. Observe the conversation she has with Atris before the PC's final visit to her - she laments that its a terrible thing to fall, and even more terrible to admit it. This alone should set off warning bells for people. When was the last time you ever heard of a Sith Lord lamenting their fall? Even acknowledging that it was a terrible thing? Play over the conversation in your head (if you've completed the game) between you and Kreia's Darth Traya aspect - not once does she say something like "behold the power of the dark side" or "the dark side is power" or any of that nonsense. The reason is because Kreia doesn't see it that way, she says flat out that the force holds Jedi and Sith in slavery (in her opinon).

 

- If you go back to an earlier conversation with Kreia about the Mandalorian wars, she asks you something to the effect of "how come it was so easy for Revan to turn Jedi to the dark side?" and asks you where he got these teachings. None of the answers you give her are satsifactory, but thats because in Kreia's head she already knows the answer - The force, not Revan or the Sith turned these Jedi. That is why she is so bloody interested in the PC. To her there is one question that needs to be answered, that is: Did this Jedi turn from the force because he resisted the fall to the dark side, or did he turn from the force because he was too weak or afraid? Remember the PC is the only Jedi to return from the Mandalorian wars not a Sith. That is a pretty impressive acomplishment, and to Kreia it is essentially the puzzles that consumes her life.

 

- Another thing about Kreia is that she is a fatalist. She laments her fall, she does not bask in the power of the Dark side, she feels as if she is a pawn to the Force - but instead of rebelling against it outwardly, she embraces her fate and her role. Remember Kreia is Darth Traya the Betrayer. Throughout the game she betrays several people, but these are just pawns for the big set up - the thing she is trying hard to 'betray' is the force itself. If Kreia believes herself to be a slave to the Force (and by all indications she says as much during her final scenes), then what could be considered the ultimate act of betrayal but to betray her master? If the force is the source of the sith teachings and Kreia as Darth Treya is the ultimate aspect of the teaching of Betrayal, then what greater act could signify the acomplishment of pure betrayal than betraying the force itself? Sort of a doozy to wrap your head around, but think of it this way: Kreia think she is a slave to the force, her way of 'freeing' herself from this slavery was to submit to it and embrace her lesson of betrayal - commiting the ultimate betrayal of course against the force, which holds her in slavery.

 

Darth Nihilus

 

- Ok I do have to admit that Nihilus is a bit of an enigma, we don't really know much about him except for a few things: 1) He feeds off the force, 2) The more he feeds the stronger he becomes, 3) The stronger he becomes the more he needs to feed to sustain his existance. That basically sums up what we know about this character, so I'm going to have to jump into the realm of conjecture to explain his role in the game.

 

- First off, he's not the foil. One thing thats wierd about this game is that there is no real foil for the character. There is no clear cut arch nemesis. Even Kreia isn't really your enemy. Nihilus sends Visas to you, but why doesn't he come after you himself? He could quite easily destroy the entire planet the PC is galavanting around on. Even Sion doesn't really care much to chase you down, he's too busy looking for Jedi masters to destroy. Kreia is the closest you can come to a true foil in this game, but even then she really doesn't desire the death of the character. So what is Nihilus' deal?

 

- This is pure conjecture on my part, but to me it seems that Nihlus is a cautionary tale. He essentially has the same ability that the PC has, that is the ability to absorb the force from things he kills. However by the time you finally face him, he is not the all powerful being he at first seems. Infact, he is quite weak. He's a creature that just consumes and consumes and has essentially eaten up all his food supply. In Nihilus you can glimpse a bit of the PC's future, or possible future if his abilties are left unchecked. The potential is there, its expounded upon by both the Jedi Council and Kreia. Perhaps this is the reason why Nihlus is masked and doesn't speak in basic? I wonder if the writers wanted him to be some what un-personified so that he existed more as a concept instead of an actual enemy. Sadly there is so little exposition about Nihilus' motives and desires (other than consuming all life) that we're left to just openly speculate.

 

- Why does Nihilus send Visas after the PC? Is it to spy on him and learn how he manages his force draining abilities without being a slave to it? Is it to help him 'grow' so that she can bring the PC before him for a super-sized force meal? Honestly I don't know. If anyone can uncover some dialogue in the game about this guys motives please share it with us. Frankly I almost wonder if Nihilus and Sion are not just stooges. Basically macguffins used by Kreia to back the PC into a corner. That certainly would fit into her methodology. Infact, perhaps the entire being exiled by the Sith thing was part of her plan all along?

 

Anyway, I think that covers most of the major plot of the game. There are minor plots with the various allies and other characters in the universe, but the majority of the story revolves around Kreia and her manipulations to bring about the death of the force through the PC. I do with that several characters had been fleshed out some more, like Nihlus and Sion (they serve almost no purpose to push the plot along, infact you could take out the entire ravager scene from the game and it would still make sense). Also as far as I can tell there are no direct references to what Reven really is doing beyond the outer rim. The only thing that comes close is a vague reference that the true sith lay somewhere out there, also it is some what hinted at that the Mandalorian war was set into motion by these 'true sith'. Perhaps Revan, being the brilliant strategist that he is, brought about the Jedi Civil war in an attempt to consolidate Republic power against this real threat. GO-To mentions that Revan, unlike Malak, actually kept key worlds intact during his campaign of conquest to serve as ship yards and resupply ports. Anyone here willing to bet me 10 bucks that KOTOR-3 has Revan leading the Mandalorians against the Sith beyond the outer rim?

 

grin

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While I think you're mostly right in your conjecture, this line:

""Hence her interest in the Exile. When she looks at him and sees the 'death of the force', I think quite literally what she means is the death of the forces control over people.""

 

I don't think is quite accurate. Kreia does loathe the way the force controls people, but the echo is something different. Nihilus is similar to the PC, but never referred to as an echo, or causing echo (that I recall anyway) however is referred to as a wound indirectly. The PC's wound in the force seems to have a unique quality, the fact that he can "drain" people as well is just gravy in the power sense. The game suggests that as the exile continues his path of destruction, the echo will become louder and louder (note that Visas could hear him across the galaxy). The game also suggests that if the echo is allowed to "grow" unchecked it would reach of deafening level, killing alll that can hear the force. So, the echo isn't the death of the force's control over people, it would be a more literal death of anyone that's force sensitive... no more Jedi or Sith, the echo would kill them.

 

As an additional plot point regarding "the enemy", we do hear from Kreia that maybe true Sith teachings are beyond the outer rim, but I thought Atris's comment was more interesting. If , instead of killing her, you leave her to the Sith Holocrons, she comments about why the teachings on Malachor were allowed to survive if they only create wounds in the force (thus, teachings that are a danger to all other force users in a way). The sith Holocrons do some hissing, and she replies, "as a beacon? a beacon for who?"

 

This suggests that the events of this game, Nihilus's rampage, and the exile's echo may have been the Trayus's academy's manner of contacting someone/something (possible true Sith) beyond the outer rim. True Sith is a good bet, since the Trayus academy was most likely constructed by the old sith, and it seems unlikely that they would place a beacon to a hereto unknown third party there.

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While I think you're mostly right in your conjecture, this line:

""Hence her interest in the Exile. When she looks at him and sees the 'death of the force', I think quite literally what she means is the death of the forces control over people.""

 

I don't think is quite accurate.  Kreia does loathe the way the force controls people, but the echo is something different.  Nihilus is similar to the PC, but never referred to as an echo, or causing echo (that I recall anyway) however is referred to as a wound indirectly.  The PC's wound in the force seems to have a unique quality, the fact that he can "drain" people as well is just gravy in the power sense.  The game suggests that as the exile continues his path of destruction, the echo will become louder and louder (note that Visas could hear him across the galaxy).  The game also suggests that if the echo is allowed to "grow" unchecked it would reach of  deafening level, killing alll that can hear the force.  So, the echo isn't the death of the force's control over people, it would be a more literal death of anyone that's force sensitive... no more Jedi or Sith, the echo would kill them.

 

As an additional plot point regarding "the enemy", we do hear from Kreia that maybe true Sith teachings are beyond the outer rim, but I thought Atris's comment was more interesting.  If , instead of killing her, you leave her to the Sith Holocrons, she comments about why the teachings on Malachor were allowed to survive if they only create wounds in the force (thus, teachings that are a danger to all other force users in a way).  The sith Holocrons do some hissing, and she replies, "as a beacon? a beacon for who?"

 

This suggests that the events of this game, Nihilus's rampage, and the exile's echo may have been the Trayus's academy's manner of contacting someone/something (possible true Sith) beyond the outer rim.  True Sith is a good bet, since the Trayus academy was most likely constructed by the old sith, and it seems unlikely that they would place a beacon to a hereto unknown third party there.

 

 

Nihilus was a true Sith. Kreia might be using the Exile has a bait for the true Sith.

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i always considered Nihilius as the Exiles polar opposite. Nihilius grows stronger by draining the life from those around him, while the exile, through his/her force bond talent, seems to empower those around him. Both grow stronger through death, but the exiles power is a shared power with all who follow him/her.

 

just a thought

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Trayus academy

Darth Traya

 

i made the leap and figured that Kriea was the teacher at Trayus Academy.

Pffft. I was hoping for "the True Sith" or artifacts. <_<

 

Anyways, So Kreia taught Sion pain and Nihilus hunger, and then was taught betrayal?

 

 

In Malachor V, Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia learned huger, pain, and betrayal. Malachor taught pain and huger and betrayal, not Kreia.

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Malakor 5 is like the beacon on Halo 2 it is communicating a super luminal speeds with the other rings or in this case with other 'True Sith' not gungans.

 

Slaughtering Gungans on Battlefront is fun.

 

Gungan: Mesa on de way.

Blam Shotgun to the face!

Dark Trooper: Yea on the way to where aliens go after they die!

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Malakor 5 is like the beacon on Halo 2 it is communicating a super luminal speeds with the other rings or in this case with other 'True Sith' not gungans.

 

Slaughtering Gungans on Battlefront is fun.

 

Gungan: Mesa on de way.

Blam Shotgun to the face!

Dark Trooper: Yea on the way to where aliens go after they die!

 

From TSL to H2 to SWB. Odd. :thumbsup:

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A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense.

 

Even the parts of the plot that aren't riddled with holes, do they really make sense? This "hole in the force" thing is kind of silly to me. Life creates the Force, its presence forms it. A "hole" in the force is just too much of a stretch for me to buy in the first place.

 

And, the whole force bond thing makes 0 sense too. OK, I could accept in the original that you and Bastila had a bond through the force. One of the amazing things about KotOR was that it actually offered a reason behind events such as that, rather then you just happening to be the most powerful person in the universe and all these other special things.

 

In this game, however, you make "force bonds" easily. How? Why? None of this is answered. This makes you a good leader. How? Why? Not answered and doesn't make sense.

 

Frankly, no matter how much anyone tries to make it pretty or rattle off explanations, I don't think anyone can make the story in this game good. I think everyone should do what I have done to feel better after playing this game.

 

I went back and played the original on my PC. Having only previously played it on the X-Box, it not only offered a somewhat new experience, but playing it and comparing it to KotOR 2, the difference is clear: There is no comparison. The 1st is just such a truly great game. It has an amazing story; realistic, indepth, and believable characters, excellent pacing, and incredible writing. I don't think there is a single part of KotOR 2 that is better. I really think this game does not even deserve to stand in the shadow of the first one.

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A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense.

 

Even the parts of the plot that aren't riddled with holes, do they really make sense? This "hole in the force" thing is kind of silly to me. Life creates the Force, its presence forms it. A "hole" in the force is just too much of a stretch for me to buy in the first place.

 

And, the whole force bond thing makes 0 sense too. OK, I could accept in the original that you and Bastila had a bond through the force. One of the amazing things about KotOR was that it actually offered a reason behind events such as that, rather then you just happening to be the most powerful person in the universe and all these other special things.

 

In this game, however, you make "force bonds" easily. How? Why? None of this is answered. This makes you a good leader. How? Why? Not answered and doesn't make sense.

 

Frankly, no matter how much anyone tries to make it pretty or rattle off explanations, I don't think anyone can make the story in this game good. I think everyone should do what I have done to feel better after playing this game.

 

I went back and played the original on my PC. Having only previously played it on the X-Box, it not only offered a somewhat new experience, but playing it and comparing it to KotOR 2, the difference is clear: There is no comparison. The 1st is just such a truly great game. It has an amazing story; realistic, indepth, and believable characters, excellent pacing, and incredible writing. I don't think there is a single part of KotOR 2 that is better. I really think this game does not even deserve to stand in the shadow of the first one.

 

That's some heavy stuff, now i gotta load up my ol' KOTOR disc.

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A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense.

 

Even the parts of the plot that aren't riddled with holes, do they really make sense? This "hole in the force" thing is kind of silly to me. Life creates the Force, its presence forms it. A "hole" in the force is just too much of a stretch for me to buy in the first place.

 

And, the whole force bond thing makes 0 sense too. OK, I could accept in the original that you and Bastila had a bond through the force. One of the amazing things about KotOR was that it actually offered a reason behind events such as that, rather then you just happening to be the most powerful person in the universe and all these other special things.

 

In this game, however, you make "force bonds" easily. How? Why? None of this is answered. This makes you a good leader. How? Why? Not answered and doesn't make sense.

 

Frankly, no matter how much anyone tries to make it pretty or rattle off explanations, I don't think anyone can make the story in this game good. I think everyone should do what I have done to feel better after playing this game.

 

I went back and played the original on my PC. Having only previously played it on the X-Box, it not only offered a somewhat new experience, but playing it and comparing it to KotOR 2, the difference is clear: There is no comparison. The 1st is just such a truly great game. It has an amazing story; realistic, indepth, and believable characters, excellent pacing, and incredible writing. I don't think there is a single part of KotOR 2 that is better. I really think this game does not even deserve to stand in the shadow of the first one.

 

I will post in defense of K2.

 

First of all, the "hole in the Force" is another way of saying that the Exile is a wound in the Force. It makes sense, really. He's killed so many people that all their lives lost left a gap in life itself. The Force is life. There was a gap in the Force; a wound.

 

Secondly, the Force bond was faked. Kreia led you to believe that your Force bond would be likely to endanger both lives. She did this so you would not have thoughts of killing her--because it would be killing yourself. That's why none of the Jedi Masters knew of such extreme bonds. They don't exist!!!

 

Lastly, blame Lucasarts, not Obsidian. They set an early deadline. Only 18 months where as Bioware had 3 years. WTF?!!

 

I just want to convince those who hate KOTOR2 to look at it from a different angle. Look how much Obsidian accomplished in 18 months! Over 30+ hours of gameplay. I personally thought K2 was equal to K1, if not greater.

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A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense.

 

Even the parts of the plot that aren't riddled with holes, do they really make sense? This "hole in the force" thing is kind of silly to me. Life creates the Force, its presence forms it. A "hole" in the force is just too much of a stretch for me to buy in the first place.

 

And, the whole force bond thing makes 0 sense too. OK, I could accept in the original that you and Bastila had a bond through the force. One of the amazing things about KotOR was that it actually offered a reason behind events such as that, rather then you just happening to be the most powerful person in the universe and all these other special things.

 

In this game, however, you make "force bonds" easily. How? Why? None of this is answered. This makes you a good leader. How? Why? Not answered and doesn't make sense.

 

Frankly, no matter how much anyone tries to make it pretty or rattle off explanations, I don't think anyone can make the story in this game good. I think everyone should do what I have done to feel better after playing this game.

 

I went back and played the original on my PC. Having only previously played it on the X-Box, it not only offered a somewhat new experience, but playing it and comparing it to KotOR 2, the difference is clear: There is no comparison. The 1st is just such a truly great game. It has an amazing story; realistic, indepth, and believable characters, excellent pacing, and incredible writing. I don't think there is a single part of KotOR 2 that is better. I really think this game does not even deserve to stand in the shadow of the first one.

 

I will post in defense of K2.

 

First of all, the "hole in the Force" is another way of saying that the Exile is a wound in the Force. It makes sense, really. He's killed so many people that all their lives lost left a gap in life itself. The Force is life. There was a gap in the Force; a wound.

 

Secondly, the Force bond was faked. Kreia led you to believe that your Force bond would be likely to endanger both lives. She did this so you would not have thoughts of killing her--because it would be killing yourself. That's why none of the Jedi Masters knew of such extreme bonds. They don't exist!!!

 

Lastly, blame Lucasarts, not Obsidian. They set an early deadline. Only 18 months where as Bioware had 3 years. WTF?!!

 

I just want to convince those who hate KOTOR2 to look at it from a different angle. Look how much Obsidian accomplished in 18 months! Over 30+ hours of gameplay. I personally thought K2 was equal to K1, if not greater.

 

That just sounds so wierd, "Force is Life." :geek:

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Great work Malhavok! Even Chris Avellone would be impressed I bet :-

 

And also it pretty much sums up how I see the story myself, only I couldnt articulate it that well myself..

 

And "wound" and "echo" are two words I had enough of for a lifetime :lol:

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That just sounds so wierd, "Force is Life." :rolleyes:

 

One problem I always perceived is that they always mix up causality. In Empire strikes back Yoda clearly states life creates the force, and not the other way round. So there is no hope in ever destroying the force if you are not willing to eliminate all life in the universe.

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Ok, this will probably qualify me for uber nerd sainthood someday, but I played through KOTOR 2 a few times as a character with high intelligence, wisdom, charisma and persuade skills as well as concentrating on trying to get as many dialogues with all the characters as possible by maximizing influence with them.

 

In any regards, I have come up with a few salient points about the plot that I feel are pretty firm. That is, not much conjecture on my part. Of course since I have my own opinions on events that happened or are revealed in the course of the game I may put forth my own interpretation, but I'll try to keep the facts prominent and my opinions towards the end.

 

All that being said, here are a few things that I've managed to collect about various people in the game as well as backstory:

 

The Exile

- The Exile has an ability to form force bonds. This is quite possibly his only real major 'force talent'. These bonds allow him to influence people quite easily, but also allow him to feel some of their emotions and pain. In a conversation with HK-47 it is revealed that Revan knew of this ability in the Exile and to some degree even pitied him. The exact reason why is not known and its possible that the pity part is pure conjecture on the part of HK-47. Assassain Droids are not known for being impartial bringers of the truth :thumbsup:

I think too that the Exile can estabilish force bounds, but ingame there are some dialogue that show how these bounds can be just the leadership ability of the exile and have nothing to do with the force. (visas dialogue after dantooine)

 

- During the battle of Malachor V the mass deaths of Jedi, Republic and Mandalorian soldiers to the mass shadow generator created what is constantly refered to as an 'echo in the force'. The entire 'echo in the force' theme is very prominent through the entire game and if you do not pay attention to it, you miss quite a bit of the story. For some reason that is not fully explained The Exiles ability to form force bonds allows him to 'listen' to this echo and the sound of the countless casualities at Malachor V was so intense that in order for him to survive, he subconciously cut himself off from the force. Frankly, don't believe a single word that Kreia says to you at the beginning of the game about how you were cut off from the force. She is only intent on blaming the Jedi Council for this act because she wants to see them brought low.

Is probable that all the jedi where suffering the same fate as the exile, there was a lot on discussion in a topic in this forum about kreia goals, generally i think is more likelly that the exile simply was scared enought to flee from the deaths and pain and so from the force itself.

 

- When the other Jedi look at the Exile and see a 'wound in the force', what they are observing is actually something I like to think of as 'the force in reverse'. Instead of the force flowing through the Exile, it instead is being consumed by him. The Exile is very much a different version of Darth Nihilus, in that they both have the ability to absorb the Force from other living things. Darth Nihilus is obviously consumed by his hunger, and it eventually leads to his downfall (does this portend things to come for the Exile?). There is more of this when I talk about Darth Nihilus in particular.

i'm more inclined to think that the Exile use the overflow of the force more than to drain it from the ones around him, he is not weaking his companions, also if the exile feed on the other is it possible that he will become another nihilus.

 

 

Kreia/Darth Traya

 

- Kreia is a manipulative bitch. Everyone pretty much agrees on this, the thing is not many people delve deeply into why she is that way. Part of it is because of her obvious Sith teachings, but also another big part of it is that she is playing a huge game against not only the PC, the Sith Lords and the Jedi Council but also against the force itself. To her the Force is not just a tool that Jedi and Sith use for opposing purposes, but the Sith and Jedi are tools of the force that it uses to achieve a sort of 'balance' in the universe.  During the final battle with the PC on Malachor V she admits that to the Exile that 'you are beautiful to me, for in you I see the death of the force'. She also laments on how the force controls people and uses the Sith and Jedi as pawns.

just want to point that Kreia is not working against the Exile but for him, also she is not too interested to the jedi council, during the game her main focus is the exile (that want to turn in an example of life whitout the force) and then the sith lords mostly because they will destroy the galaxy if not stopped

 

- If you go back to an earlier conversation with Kreia about the Mandalorian wars, she asks you something to the effect of "how come it was so easy for Revan to turn Jedi to the dark side?" and asks you where he got these teachings. None of the answers you give her are satsifactory, but thats because in Kreia's head she already knows the answer - The force, not Revan or the Sith turned these Jedi.

I agree that the force had a main part, expecially on malachor, but probably we must even the war in the equation.

and all of this was done for the plan of Revan

 

That is why she is so bloody interested in the PC. To her there is one question that needs to be answered, that is: Did this Jedi turn from the force because he resisted the fall to the dark side, or did he turn from the force because he was too weak or afraid? Remember the PC is the only Jedi to return from the Mandalorian wars not a Sith. That is a pretty impressive acomplishment, and to Kreia it is essentially the puzzles that consumes her life.

I think she is curious i don't think this is a puzzle that consumes her life, she is more focused on other things than to know why the exile have done that, for her is more important that is happened and how to five counsciosness to exile than to know why he done that.

During the game she give him a bot of hints about what will happen, she tries to prepare him for the future, but she don't ask him about his past or his decisions.

 

 

- Another thing about Kreia is that she is a fatalist. She laments her fall, she does not bask in the power of the Dark side, she feels as if she is a pawn to the Force - but instead of rebelling against it outwardly, she embraces her fate and her role. Remember Kreia is Darth Traya the Betrayer. Throughout the game she betrays several people, but these are just pawns for the big set up - the thing she is trying hard to 'betray' is the force itself. If Kreia believes herself to be a slave to the Force (and by all indications she says as much during her final scenes), then what could be considered the ultimate act of betrayal but to betray her master? If the force is the source of the sith teachings and Kreia as Darth Treya is the ultimate aspect of the teaching of Betrayal, then what greater act could signify the acomplishment of pure betrayal than betraying the force itself? Sort of a doozy to wrap your head around, but think of it this way: Kreia think she is a slave to the force, her way of 'freeing' herself from this slavery was to submit to it and embrace her lesson of betrayal - commiting the ultimate betrayal of course against the force, which holds her in slavery.

i think she is enlighted more than fatalistic, she see a "closed" destiny in the force, but she is fighting to give freedom to humanity.

She is enslaved by the force, and she know that but still her efforts are to end that enslavement.

And i don't she is anymore darth Traya when she meet the exile, she say herself that she left that role and when Atris meet her telling that she is a sith she reply that is just a title that doesn't represent her.

 

 

Darth Nihilus

 

- First off, he's not the foil. One thing thats wierd about this game is that there is no real foil for the character. There is no clear cut arch nemesis. Even Kreia isn't really your enemy. Nihilus sends Visas to you, but why doesn't he come after you himself? He could quite easily destroy the entire planet the PC is galavanting around on. Even Sion doesn't really care much to chase you down, he's too busy looking for Jedi masters to destroy. Kreia is the closest you can come to a true foil in this game, but even then she really doesn't desire the death of the character. So what is Nihilus' deal?

Kreia is again your best ally, Nihilus sends Visas after you to bring you to him. he can't feel you, and when Visas betray his master he have no other way to come to you.

 

Also during the game is stated that Nihilus can't freely move in republic space, so he simply can't just come with Visas.

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Even with all the cut-content aside...

 

TSL suffers mainly from trying to base an entire story that is grounded in a concrete and established universe around something that is very abstract... The Force... And then trying to construct a fantasy RPG around it that uses absolutes (LS/DS; Influence) in order to tell the story.

 

Even if Malhavok's interpretation is correct and closest to what Chris Avellone intended to convey as the author...

 

How well is this message actually conveyed in the game as you play through it?

 

In other words, is the story Malhavok summerized A) Interesting enough to make a game out of and B) Can it be executed properly given the limitations of an RPG and the current engine (LS/DS; Influence) that OE used?

 

I believe this is one of the major reasons why people either love this game or hate it, cut-content aside.

 

People have argued this story is done brilliantly while others argue that it makes no sense. I think it's a bit of the two mixed together if we are going to be completely honest. I also think it stems from the fact that I believe people are trying to compare it as a whole and not separate the story from the game itself and vice versa.

 

I will be honest.

 

As much as I am a current critic of this game's storyline... It sounds like a good storyline ON PAPER (if not a little too cerebral and abstract for general audiences).

 

However, this is my whole point.

 

It sounds really good on paper... But then how does one translate a storyline like that into an RPG that is constructed with the limitations of absolute LS and DS choices and Influences -- Regardless of the Neutral stance; Overall, you must pick a side in order to play the KOTOR games to their fullest if we are going to be honest.

 

This is where I think the storyline runs into trouble and where the "split" between people who love the game and those who love the story emerges.

 

People will of course say they love both the game and the story equal well... And in fact, how can you argue you like one without the other?

 

Well, I am doing just that.

 

I like TSL as a game in terms of CRPG with subquests, the LS/DS choices and other mechanical gameplay elements (combat; stats; etc)... But from a strictly story perspective, have a problem with it because I feel that it doesn't mix with the game mechanics given what the story wants to address and the foundations the SW universe were based on.

 

George Lucas said he created "The Force" to get young people (this was the '70s) to believe in something again, something "higher" and bigger than themselves. He never publically stated it is meant to represent "God" or relgions of any kind, but most people can draw this conclusion fairly easily.

 

What TSL does is try and expound on that... What is essentially a pretty open-ended concept, reglious overtones or not... But it is restricted to a game engine that measures things in absolutes (DS/LS; Influence) and this is where the two are in conflict and why they are working at cross-purposes a lot of time from my perspective IF you choose to take both the game and the story as a whole entity and not separate them.

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Dahvernas brings up a good point. I personally loved the story but was annoyed at the game dynamics themselves because they don't fit cohesively. If you think about it, K2 really starts to look at the grey matter in the SW universe - it hasn't been done before (to my knowledge; if anyone would like to elaborate on that please do)... therefore, OE were very ambitious to go this route. The thing is, while were looking at the arrogance and... well, yes, IGNORANCE of the light side and the consuming dark-side, we must choose either of these paths to progress through the game (yes, i know it is possbile to complete the game in the grey-matter area, but there are simply no ADVANTAGES to this). I think there should have been some sort of advantage with the 'grey-area' to really link up with what Kreia says throughout the game.

 

^ I know this got a little off topic, but as a final note, I completely agree with Malhavok's interpretation. This was something I really was going to post about myself, but he has done such a good job of it :thumbsup:

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(yes, i know it is possbile to complete the game in the grey-matter area, but there are simply no ADVANTAGES to this). I think there should have been some sort of advantage with the 'grey-area' to really link up with what Kreia says throughout the game.

 

I think you nailed it on the head, at least for me.

 

The basic storyline and philosophy TSL is espousing is basically one of FREE CHOICE and FREEDOM (from the Force according to Kriea)... And the only way one would foreseeabily be able to free themselves from The Force if they are a Force Sensative (Jedi or Sith) is to simply just not do anything the The Froce tells them... Like choose NOT to be a LS Jedi, or be a DS Sith.

 

However... The game is not constructed this way.

 

There is NO benefit to "not doing anything" (taking the Neutral stance) no matter how hard you try.

 

I've never actually done a Neutral side play through on TSL or KOTOR, but it seems it would be pretty boring because you basically don't/wouldn't take any side-quests and say, "I don't want to get involved"... Yet that is the meat and potatoes of any RPG: Doing quests and other things that further your character's goals and the storyline (either dark or light motivations).

 

If they had incorporated payoffs that actually rewarded Neutral play throughs... THAT would have been even more ambitious than just attempting a Neutral storyline in my opinion because that WOULD be hard to do with this current engine (they could rewrite it) and how the SW universe is set up.

 

Esoterically, even the Neutral play through would have to have elements of LS and DS because that is just the nature of performing various tasks. You may be doing it for your own gain, but you will inevitably either be forced to pick a side eventually and or what you do, regardless if it is in your own interest, will have consequences, both light and dark.

 

THIS (above) is what I think TSL is trying to tackle with TSL.

 

It's just that the game engine is holding this back because of its absolute LS and DS construction.

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i don't agree too much with Malhavok's interpretation as he seem to present a "standard vision" of the force and even the enlightment path remain unexpressed.

 

 

I think Obsidian tried to give a new vision of the force that is not a grey vision, but an idea of a "dominating force"

 

The force here is more presented as a whole thing that has its own will and goals (balance).

 

In my opinion this make TSL very itneresting for SW universe, and this idea fit extremely well in what we see happens in the new movie trilogy.

 

 

the game is very deep and complex, way more of the movie, but i appreciated that... the movie story and character are developed in few hours, so generally is not really possible to buld a very complex story.

 

for a game the thing is different and more tought can be put in it i think that the fact that developers put a lot of works to build a deep story and characters is a thing to appreciate not to blame telling that SW is a more flat galaxy.

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