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Malhavok

Many Plot Points (spoiler city)

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If you think about it, K2 really starts to look at the grey matter in the SW universe - it hasn't been done before (to my knowledge; if anyone would like to elaborate on that please do)... therefore, OE were very ambitious to go this route. The thing is, while were looking at the arrogance and... well, yes, IGNORANCE of the light side and the consuming dark-side, we must choose either of these paths to progress through the game (yes, i know it is possbile to complete the game in the grey-matter area, but there are simply no ADVANTAGES to this). I think there should have been some sort of advantage with the 'grey-area' to really link up with what Kreia says throughout the game.

Well if you think of it, having awareness you wind up as neither ignorant light-sider nor consumed dark-sider *is* an advantage in a way... though that's on mental level rather, and you pay the price of no 'easy mode' with extra force powers and whatnot... but that seems like quite a fair trade-off. :s

 

Oh, and in the end Kreia says she loved you because you're not (fully) a Jedi/Sith --which was reward good enough on its own to me-- but perhaps you get that line in ending no matter what anyway? :p

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A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense.

 

Even the parts of the plot that aren't riddled with holes, do they really make sense? This "hole in the force" thing is kind of silly to me. Life creates the Force, its presence forms it. A "hole" in the force is just too much of a stretch for me to buy in the first place.

 

And, the whole force bond thing makes 0 sense too. OK, I could accept in the original that you and Bastila had a bond through the force. One of the amazing things about KotOR was that it actually offered a reason behind events such as that, rather then you just happening to be the most powerful person in the universe and all these other special things.

 

In this game, however, you make "force bonds" easily. How? Why? None of this is answered. This makes you a good leader. How? Why? Not answered and doesn't make sense.

 

Frankly, no matter how much anyone tries to make it pretty or rattle off explanations, I don't think anyone can make the story in this game good. I think everyone should do what I have done to feel better after playing this game.

 

I went back and played the original on my PC. Having only previously played it on the X-Box, it not only offered a somewhat new experience, but playing it and comparing it to KotOR 2, the difference is clear: There is no comparison. The 1st is just such a truly great game. It has an amazing story; realistic, indepth, and believable characters, excellent pacing, and incredible writing. I don't think there is a single part of KotOR 2 that is better. I really think this game does not even deserve to stand in the shadow of the first one.

 

I will post in defense of K2.

 

First of all, the "hole in the Force" is another way of saying that the Exile is a wound in the Force. It makes sense, really. He's killed so many people that all their lives lost left a gap in life itself. The Force is life. There was a gap in the Force; a wound.

 

Secondly, the Force bond was faked. Kreia led you to believe that your Force bond would be likely to endanger both lives. She did this so you would not have thoughts of killing her--because it would be killing yourself. That's why none of the Jedi Masters knew of such extreme bonds. They don't exist!!!

 

Lastly, blame Lucasarts, not Obsidian. They set an early deadline. Only 18 months where as Bioware had 3 years. WTF?!!

 

I just want to convince those who hate KOTOR2 to look at it from a different angle. Look how much Obsidian accomplished in 18 months! Over 30+ hours of gameplay. I personally thought K2 was equal to K1, if not greater.

 

Then why did the Exile experience the pain of Kreia's hand getting cut off?

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A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense.

 

Even the parts of the plot that aren't riddled with holes, do they really make sense? This "hole in the force" thing is kind of silly to me. Life creates the Force, its presence forms it. A "hole" in the force is just too much of a stretch for me to buy in the first place.

 

And, the whole force bond thing makes 0 sense too. OK, I could accept in the original that you and Bastila had a bond through the force. One of the amazing things about KotOR was that it actually offered a reason behind events such as that, rather then you just happening to be the most powerful person in the universe and all these other special things.

 

In this game, however, you make "force bonds" easily. How? Why? None of this is answered. This makes you a good leader. How? Why? Not answered and doesn't make sense.

 

Frankly, no matter how much anyone tries to make it pretty or rattle off explanations, I don't think anyone can make the story in this game good. I think everyone should do what I have done to feel better after playing this game.

 

I went back and played the original on my PC. Having only previously played it on the X-Box, it not only offered a somewhat new experience, but playing it and comparing it to KotOR 2, the difference is clear: There is no comparison. The 1st is just such a truly great game. It has an amazing story; realistic, indepth, and believable characters, excellent pacing, and incredible writing. I don't think there is a single part of KotOR 2 that is better. I really think this game does not even deserve to stand in the shadow of the first one.

 

I will post in defense of K2.

 

First of all, the "hole in the Force" is another way of saying that the Exile is a wound in the Force. It makes sense, really. He's killed so many people that all their lives lost left a gap in life itself. The Force is life. There was a gap in the Force; a wound.

 

Secondly, the Force bond was faked. Kreia led you to believe that your Force bond would be likely to endanger both lives. She did this so you would not have thoughts of killing her--because it would be killing yourself. That's why none of the Jedi Masters knew of such extreme bonds. They don't exist!!!

 

Lastly, blame Lucasarts, not Obsidian. They set an early deadline. Only 18 months where as Bioware had 3 years. WTF?!!

 

I just want to convince those who hate KOTOR2 to look at it from a different angle. Look how much Obsidian accomplished in 18 months! Over 30+ hours of gameplay. I personally thought K2 was equal to K1, if not greater.

 

Then why did the Exile experience the pain of Kreia's hand getting cut off?

 

Kreia's telepathy is pretty impressive - she could have very well transmitted her pain to the Exile, to create the notion of a possibly fatal force bond.

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A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense.

 

Even the parts of the plot that aren't riddled with holes, do they really make sense? This "hole in the force" thing is kind of silly to me. Life creates the Force, its presence forms it. A "hole" in the force is just too much of a stretch for me to buy in the first place.

 

And, the whole force bond thing makes 0 sense too. OK, I could accept in the original that you and Bastila had a bond through the force. One of the amazing things about KotOR was that it actually offered a reason behind events such as that, rather then you just happening to be the most powerful person in the universe and all these other special things.

 

In this game, however, you make "force bonds" easily. How? Why? None of this is answered. This makes you a good leader. How? Why? Not answered and doesn't make sense.

 

Frankly, no matter how much anyone tries to make it pretty or rattle off explanations, I don't think anyone can make the story in this game good. I think everyone should do what I have done to feel better after playing this game.

 

I went back and played the original on my PC. Having only previously played it on the X-Box, it not only offered a somewhat new experience, but playing it and comparing it to KotOR 2, the difference is clear: There is no comparison. The 1st is just such a truly great game. It has an amazing story; realistic, indepth, and believable characters, excellent pacing, and incredible writing. I don't think there is a single part of KotOR 2 that is better. I really think this game does not even deserve to stand in the shadow of the first one.

 

I will post in defense of K2.

 

First of all, the "hole in the Force" is another way of saying that the Exile is a wound in the Force. It makes sense, really. He's killed so many people that all their lives lost left a gap in life itself. The Force is life. There was a gap in the Force; a wound.

 

Secondly, the Force bond was faked. Kreia led you to believe that your Force bond would be likely to endanger both lives. She did this so you would not have thoughts of killing her--because it would be killing yourself. That's why none of the Jedi Masters knew of such extreme bonds. They don't exist!!!

 

Lastly, blame Lucasarts, not Obsidian. They set an early deadline. Only 18 months where as Bioware had 3 years. WTF?!!

 

I just want to convince those who hate KOTOR2 to look at it from a different angle. Look how much Obsidian accomplished in 18 months! Over 30+ hours of gameplay. I personally thought K2 was equal to K1, if not greater.

 

Then why did the Exile experience the pain of Kreia's hand getting cut off?

 

Kreia's telepathy is pretty impressive - she could have very well transmitted her pain to the Exile, to create the notion of a possibly fatal force bond.

 

And she was able to commit this sinister mind trick while she got her hand cut off by Sion's lightsaber? It sounds very illogical.

 

Also explain how Exile and Kreia shared their force powers. When Kreia used a force power, Exile got it as well, and vice versa. And other stuff. It sounds too big for even Kreia to handle.

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There was a force bond that was sufficent for the Exile to feel pain from the wound however, it wouldn't have been sufficent to kill the Exile like Kreia claimed. That's what I think anyway :geek:

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A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense.

 

Even the parts of the plot that aren't riddled with holes, do they really make sense? This "hole in the force" thing is kind of silly to me. Life creates the Force, its presence forms it. A "hole" in the force is just too much of a stretch for me to buy in the first place.

 

And, the whole force bond thing makes 0 sense too. OK, I could accept in the original that you and Bastila had a bond through the force. One of the amazing things about KotOR was that it actually offered a reason behind events such as that, rather then you just happening to be the most powerful person in the universe and all these other special things.

 

In this game, however, you make "force bonds" easily. How? Why? None of this is answered. This makes you a good leader. How? Why? Not answered and doesn't make sense.

 

Frankly, no matter how much anyone tries to make it pretty or rattle off explanations, I don't think anyone can make the story in this game good. I think everyone should do what I have done to feel better after playing this game.

 

I went back and played the original on my PC. Having only previously played it on the X-Box, it not only offered a somewhat new experience, but playing it and comparing it to KotOR 2, the difference is clear: There is no comparison. The 1st is just such a truly great game. It has an amazing story; realistic, indepth, and believable characters, excellent pacing, and incredible writing. I don't think there is a single part of KotOR 2 that is better. I really think this game does not even deserve to stand in the shadow of the first one.

 

I will post in defense of K2.

 

First of all, the "hole in the Force" is another way of saying that the Exile is a wound in the Force. It makes sense, really. He's killed so many people that all their lives lost left a gap in life itself. The Force is life. There was a gap in the Force; a wound.

 

Secondly, the Force bond was faked. Kreia led you to believe that your Force bond would be likely to endanger both lives. She did this so you would not have thoughts of killing her--because it would be killing yourself. That's why none of the Jedi Masters knew of such extreme bonds. They don't exist!!!

 

Lastly, blame Lucasarts, not Obsidian. They set an early deadline. Only 18 months where as Bioware had 3 years. WTF?!!

 

I just want to convince those who hate KOTOR2 to look at it from a different angle. Look how much Obsidian accomplished in 18 months! Over 30+ hours of gameplay. I personally thought K2 was equal to K1, if not greater.

 

Then why did the Exile experience the pain of Kreia's hand getting cut off?

 

Kreia's telepathy is pretty impressive - she could have very well transmitted her pain to the Exile, to create the notion of a possibly fatal force bond.

 

And she was able to commit this sinister mind trick while she got her hand cut off by Sion's lightsaber? It sounds very illogical.

 

Also explain how Exile and Kreia shared their force powers. When Kreia used a force power, Exile got it as well, and vice versa. And other stuff. It sounds too big for even Kreia to handle.

 

Err...all Jedi can do that they're just lazy and selfish!? :geek: And Kreia could

have let her arm get cut off, to errr....

 

No, I might as well accept it - I'm more stumped than Kreia's arm......

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Great job in putting together many salient parts in the story.

 

 

- The Exile has an ability to form force bonds. This is quite possibly his only real major 'force talent'. These bonds allow him to influence people quite easily, but also allow him to feel some of their emotions and pain. In a conversation with HK-47 it is revealed that Revan knew of this ability in the Exile and to some degree even pitied him. The exact reason why is not known and its possible that the pity part is pure conjecture on the part of HK-47. Assassain Droids are not known for being impartial bringers of the truth :shifty:

 

That comment by Revan makes me think that Revan would never have agreed to Exile becoming involved, had he been asked. But he wasn't--this was Kreia's deal all the way. And that could be a great point for K3 when/if the two meet. Not to mention the fact that Exile killed Revan's master at the end of K2.

 

But the bonding is not so much a Force ability as it is a 'human' ability. Exile still does it without a strong connection to the force, whether he realizes it or not.

 

Revan created an atmosphere for bonding artificially at Malachor, because people who fight together tend to become very close--far closer than loyalty to a Jedi Council sitting light-years away. That Council doesn't have a clue what those fighters are going through. Convert one, you've pretty much converted them all. And that's what Exile is doing. Converting people into 'his' type of Jedi. He had a gift for it, one so strong that the Council itself sent him away once and reinforced it a second time, for fear that they themselves would be swayed.

 

 

 

- When the other Jedi look at the Exile and see a 'wound in the force', what they are observing is actually something I like to think of as 'the force in reverse'. Instead of the force flowing through the Exile, it instead is being consumed by him. The Exile is very much a different version of Darth Nihilus, in that they both have the ability to absorb the Force from other living things. Darth Nihilus is obviously consumed by his hunger, and it eventually leads to his downfall (does this portend things to come for the Exile?). There is more of this when I talk about Darth Nihilus in particular.

 

As someone else said, I don't think Exile is consuming; rather, through his bonds, it's a two-way street. He's probably doing more giving than taking, except in one instance:

 

 

Darth Nihilus

 

...is probably one of the Sith Lords that fled from Korriban after the Jedi Civil war, as is Sion. Kreia said that by the time the Republic got there, the place was deserted, and the Republic forces 'assumed' that the Sith had all killed each other. But Korriban and Malachor lie at the fringe of the Unknown galaxy, and the techniques they're using are from the 'true Sith'. It is left up to conjecture as to how they learned it; but she did say that Nihilous is the approaching the pinnacle of that power.

 

What makes Nihilous such a wimp is the fact that he cannot feed off the Exile. He can't even feel him on the ship. And also ... I noticed an animation at the end of that battle which was EXACTLY the same as when Kreia drained the three Jedi Masters of the Force, leading right back to Exile. He used Nihilous's ability right back against him, and the dude went down.

Probably if anyone else had fought Mr. N, they'd have been fodder, but all Exile really had to do was flip the switch.

 

Yes, the Jedi Council had good reason to fear. First of all they could get no reading off Exile as to his intentions. Second, they felt that any Jedi who had this 'Sith' power could not be controlled. And they didn't trust Kreia to have taught him anything, only to make him more dangerous. Notice how they waited until we had gathered as many Jedi together as possible--they wanted the balance of power on their side when they took the Force away.

 

In the end Kreia never says much about YOUR destiny, although she probably knows, and that's why she singled you out. All she really does is toughen Exile up so he can bear to feel the Force again, and have him work on controlling the give and take. She makes him think about concepts which are neither Jedi nor Sith, but a mix of both. That's what Revan learned, and the only tactic that will aid him.

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QUOTE(DrSpock @ Dec 31 2004, 10:25 PM)

"A lot of this still seems like conjecture to me. And besides that... even if you do think you've actually made sense of this story, well frankly, it still doesn't make any sense."

 

I second that.

 

Though, great elements for a story were there;

 

A LS Jedi did - as a LS Jedi! - a dark deed by destroying the population of a whole planet. Trauma, loss of memory.

 

Kreia is a non Jedi, Non-Sith who tries to manipulate both sides to reach her goals. The PC has to follow her because the "LS"-Council kicked him out and actually put him into that position where he has no other leads.

 

The Jedi council is *not*, by verdict, always doing the right thing. The PC has to rebel against it without actually having to become "evil". This is the best element IMO, since OE actually managed it to come over that simple stupid LS/DS thing.

 

All in all, some pretty good "grey" story elements, being entirely possible and consistent with the SW-universe. BTW, in Kotor1, Jolee Bindo was also a guy who was not into that LS/DS stuff. So it *is* possible and has already been proven, that the star wars world can indeed also feature "grey" storylines.

 

 

Elements I hated;

 

No, I won

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