Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 5

[Gorth]

Ah yes, guarded hearth. At first I had no idea why some build guide for Sosiel recommended impossible domain community. Until I tried guarded hearth (because Gromnir brought up the name of that ability at some point when I felt like banging my head against a wall because enemy had turned into an immovable obstacle)...

Since I'm not going to do secret ending (can't do that when doing legend), I decided to just drop Enigma (and Nenio as she seemed enamoured of the place and refused to leave it) and move on. Not that many other places to go other than Iz now. Working my way towards cumulative level 38. Most encounters at this point are trivial (mind you, only "normal" difficulty, I'm sure that's a different experience on higher difficulties). I might just finish off treasure islands, as I'm two thirds through the second overland map, island 4 or 5 in the second batch of islands. After doing the islands, I may or may not decide to go back and say hello to Nenio, if she's still around at Enigma.

 

Edit: Completed Ember's personal quest (leaving just Nenio) and went to a Baphoment shrine. A special guest appearance by my favourite hot demon chick Noticula made for some rather amusing conversations. Having a soft spot for Ember for various reasons, I picked to (good) dialogue choices. Trying to strike an overall balance between good and evil to stay chaotic neutral.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

 

 

Edit: Completed Ember's personal quest (leaving just Nenio) and went to a Baphoment shrine. A special guest appearance by my favourite hot demon chick Noticula made for some rather amusing conversations. Having a soft spot for Ember for various reasons, I picked to (good) dialogue choices. Trying to strike an overall balance between good and evil to stay chaotic neutral.

seeing as how you already finished ember's quest...

Spoiler

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Nocticula

in the return o' the runelords adventure path you may engage in time travel *groan* and right wrongs the result o' which is providing nocticula with the last nudge she needs to ascend as a cn god. is further explained her involvement in the events o' wotr were a kinda behind the scenes sales pitch to the not evil gods o' the pathfinder pantheon to embrace her apotheosis. 

...

it don't need to make sense, but the point is that the ember appeals to the redeemer queen is kinda an inside joke or easter egg for pathfinder nerds who is aware o' nocticula's impending quasi-redemption. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

I now have something to significantly complain about- the level cap. Surely it cannot be that hard to work out roughly how much xp there is in the game and design the cap around that? Especially if you're going to sell dlc that just adds extra xp to the pile. I am, it seems, now the small matter of 1 million xp over the cap, and I haven't even been to Ib (?) yet. Unless it isn't displaying my xp properly? I got lvl 20 after the final fight in Enigma... (spoilers for that and the Azata mythic finale)
 

Spoiler

..so that 1 million excess xp basically has to be 5 x Areshkel iterations- do you even get xp for each?- plus Mephistopheles and 3 islands worth of Midnight Isles leading up to, uh Death Rattle? That's literally all I've done.

Bug I had previously in Enigma was that Nenio's final conversation wouldn't start up, so I got to do Enigma again. Oddly enough, still didn't hate the puzzles.

Mephistopheles fight was also annoying rather than difficult. It seemed to rely entirely on keeping the MC alive/ conscious; when I did I won with no significant damage to the party at all. Lose the MC though, even for a round, and everything turned to custard without fail.

XP wise, I've done literally zero grinding, and while I've done most of the optional fights I certainly haven't done all of them. To my mind it's just plain bad design, and there's no excuse for it. Either have a higher cap, or have lower xp rewards.

That's also the one thing I actively loathed about both PoEs, for that matter.

[Gorth]

@Zoraptor you could choose to become a legend and forsake the power that was handed to you... currently level 37 and rising (capped at level 40 iirc). I guess it's capped at 20 for the mythic paths as a counterweight to the mythic benefits you gain along with the story progression?

 

[Gromnir]

observation: not everybody is a completionist.

the games is designed so that more casual players may reach a level capable o' dealing with endgame content and that needed to be the case pre dlc. content is not optional side-quest material if is needed to complete the game. the game, for economic reasons, need be beatable by folks not wanting to invest +80 hours into the experience, yes? problem should be obvious.

am getting how level cap is a frequent complaint and a valid concern for players, but most solutions cheese off players more than the current situation.

example solution: make all xp quest based and do not provide xp for optional content. sure, you still receive all the 1007 rewards from doing optional content, but if only the critical path provides xp, then completionists and critical path players is gonna finish with same levels and same xp totals.

now imagine the howls o' outrage, eh?

(edit) am recalling the pillars of eternity developers thought they had broken the code. pillars utilized quest-based xp, which gave obsinaties an advantage over wotr developers in managing level grants. josh announced, pre release,  that the pillars developers had created new tools which allowed 'em to track and customize xp grants so they could achieve a perfect calculus-- level cap would only be reached by completionists a bit before endgame, and critical path players would not be punished by treating optional as optional. sounded mighty certain. and how could he not be certain? surely at least one tester had completed a run wherein they did all available material, yes?

...

we never did get an explanation or apology from the obsidian developers regarding their xp fails in pillars. 

criticism is easy and is the right o' every purchaser. unfortunate, solutions is hard.

HA! Good Fun!

ps is possible to add in a difficulty slider option which limits xp rewards-- make the/a solution optional. however, keep in mind the unfair players is already exploiting schemes to reach levels 2 through 20 asap.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

I think I'll be able to play more frquently again this week. It's time to become a gladiator.

On 11/6/2022 at 8:16 AM, Gromnir said:

gotta admit am pleasant surprised with our enchantment focused azata skald. allows us to have ember devoted to evocation (am thinking we should use loremaster to add scirocco to her spell list) and hexes. with our skald am able to serious pump up the dc for hideous laughter and other enchantments while also spreading the wealth with reckless stance, inspired rage plus all the beast totem stuff.

Welcome to the party.

 

[Gromnir]

started out as a half-elf dirge bard 'cause is the best potential intimidator in the game if you go strength and/or charisma routes. unfortunately owlcat changed guarded hearth to a competence bonus so our bard songs became useless during boss battles.

decided to make the switch to skald 'cause our backup plan o' court poet were a fail for us once we saw azata believe in your self spell and the court poet inspiration did not stack.

*sigh*

so now we got a human crossblood sorc (1 level) and skald build which is a bit different than our kindred half-elf dirge bard save for the enchantment focus. sixteen levels o' dirge bard + thug and some demon slayer were the plan, but owlcat's guarded hearth fix altered the plan.

hideous laughter + best jokes is working exceeding well for the bard and am certain overwhelming presence will work even better when we get next level. incredible might should offer additional individual and party benefits. reckless stance, unlike lethal stance, stacks with guarded hearth, so am seeing excellent boss battle numbers and 'tween ember's beast gift and all the skald beast totem rage powers our animal companions is doing more than their fair share o' work.

is a compromise build but it is an effective compromise build.

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

9 hours ago, Gorth said:

You could choose to become a legend and forsake the power that was handed to you... currently level 37 and rising (capped at level 40 iirc). I guess it's capped at 20 for the mythic paths as a counterweight to the mythic benefits you gain along with the story progression?

That's the funny thing which made me wonder if I'd actually hit a bug: if I had gone Legend (small matter of accepting Nocticula's profane gift notwithstanding; who'd have thunk accepting a demon's gift would have consequences?) I'd still have hit that level cap after maybe an hours extra gameplay.

[Gromnir]

legend leveling is misunderstood in part 'cause o' owlcat description o' fast leveling. misleading.

took us more than ten hours o' gameplay to get from 35 to 38, so final two levels... maybe more than an hour.

admitted we play mostly tb. even so, is perhaps not as described.

HA! Good Fun!

[Vaeliorin]

I finally finished it.  154 hours 26 minutes at my last save right before the final battle.

It was good.  The crusade bit kind of fell flat at the end...my units basically only existed to win initiative so my general could wipe everything out with twincast spells.  Only ended up with like 6 of the angel mythic units, but not until months after I'd wiped out all the armies, so I never ended up using them.

Gameplay wise it was good.  I probably should have played on a higher difficulty (I played on Core) since at the end of the game not a single fight was lasting more than two rounds.  Heck, the second to final boss died from the attacks of my first character to move.  Granted, if I actually let the enemies move, they did stupid damage (why does everything do unholy damage that I have no way to counter?)

Definitely have intentions to do at least one or two more runs (I'd like to try Trickster, Azata and Aeon) but I think I'll do Inevitable Excess and Through The Ashes beforehand.

[InsaneCommander]

Finished the outside areas of Upper city. The map is annoying. Found a few more fools who attacked me when I addressed them.

I ended up leaving the gladiator stuff for later. I'll do Greybor's and Woljif's quests now and then try to find/remember where Velexia's mansion is.

[Gorth]

I finally completed The Secret of Creation (I think that was its name), after finding the last puzzle pieces in The Laughing Cave. That was a bit... anticlimactic?

Gained another level to cumulative level 38 (20 barbarian and 18 warrior). On normal difficulty, most needs for tactics or thought has gone out the window. The last fight in The Laughing Cave actually downed 3 of my team members, bit Gorth would just merrily hack away at the two bosses, doing between 75 and 150hp damage with each swing of Finnean (and that's a lot of swings at this point at this level)

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

20 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

Finished the outside areas of Upper city. The map is annoying. Found a few more fools who attacked me when I addressed them.

I ended up leaving the gladiator stuff for later. I'll do Greybor's and Woljif's quests now and then try to find/remember where Velexia's mansion is.

I didn't know the map changed with camera rotation. Not great design.

19 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I finally completed The Secret of Creation (I think that was its name), after finding the last puzzle pieces in The Laughing Cave. That was a bit... anticlimactic?

Gained another level to cumulative level 38 (20 barbarian and 18 warrior). On normal difficulty, most needs for tactics or thought has gone out the window. The last fight in The Laughing Cave actually downed 3 of my team members, bit Gorth would just merrily hack away at the two bosses, doing between 75 and 150hp damage with each swing of Finnean (and that's a lot of swings at this point at this level)

 

The Secret of Creation is the discount version of Nenio's quest, in more ways than one. 

I think that Pathfinder 1e in general and Owlfinder specifically are more about system mastery than tactics, knowing how to balloon your numbers to the stratosphere and grab immunity to debilitating conditions is going to matter much more than tactics in many cases. Who needs tactics when you hit on a 1 and are immune to everything under the sun?

Anyways this game triggers my rerollitis hard. I have not been able to get past the Shield Maze since picking the game back up.

[majestic]

Ride like the wind, Shadowfax!

[Gromnir]

8 hours ago, Gorth said:

I finally completed The Secret of Creation (I think that was its name), after finding the last puzzle pieces in The Laughing Cave. That was a bit... anticlimactic?

Gained another level to cumulative level 38 (20 barbarian and 18 warrior). On normal difficulty, most needs for tactics or thought has gone out the window. The last fight in The Laughing Cave actually downed 3 of my team members, bit Gorth would just merrily hack away at the two bosses, doing between 75 and 150hp damage with each swing of Finnean (and that's a lot of swings at this point at this level)

 

as difficult as it may be to believe, the laughing cave encounter is easier today than at release. that said, w/o meta knowledge is doubtful you would see the vavakia vanguard as having been nerfed in any meaningful way.

pre nerfing it were fair to ask why the two wotr vavakia vanguards didn't overthrow deskari and baphomet and then set their sights on the entirety o' the abyss, 'cause their powhaz were potential army shattering as well seeming tailored to overcome most demonlord defenses. 'course asmodeus and mephistopheles wouldn't have fared any better, so war 'tween the fiends were all but over as soon as the vavakia vaguards made an appearance.

as to secrets o' creation, am admitted confused by the replication o' content from enigma and secrets. @Agielsuggested backer contribution were at least in part to blame as a backer were the one who demanded an all puzzle quest. for whatever reason, owl cat went full infernal or bottled genie, perverting the backer wish so as to become a curse... or so we assume.

edit: am mostly finished with act iv. a few things has changed with act iv. we got jumped by a bunch o' slavers which hadn't happened previous, but were such minor encounter am not sure why it were added or fixed. am also seeing how the hand no longer tops off your spells and daily abilities when he heals you, but resting works curious as our meal bonuses don't appear to expire as one would expect. rooftop remain dangerous for a party with many critters and embiggened companions as we inevitably set off traps when our oversized party is crammed into rooftop space. 

gonna finish off the quasit and then move on to the mines.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Gromnir

[bugarup]

VVs are no slouches after nerf either. It was them who mass-terrified that horde of mythic path leftovers that turned up to help my Legend dude, including the huge poser devil in fancy dress (Mephistopheles I think?) and Smug Mug's brother-lover (Sogothbenot? ...said Yoda to his teenager granddaugther...). Was funny to see them brownpants puffing their chests afterwards, saying stuff like "We sure annihilated them, yay me!" 

[Gorth]

A few more island to go on treasure islands (unless it flips over again and presents me with a third map full of islands?)... making that today's goal for me.

After that, there is only missions left, that takes place in Iz. So, off to Iz after that.

I can almost hear the lead bard from some Abyssal Rock band belting out "Gorth save the Queen!"

[xzar_monty]

This is a fairly random question mainly to people like @Gromnir who seem to know a heck of a lot about the game.

Suppose that you play on Unfair difficulty. In Act 3, there's that quest where you have to kill the dragon with Greybor. This quest contains a wilderness encounter where you suddenly come across the dragon, it breathes at you and then flies away pretty soon after that.

Now, since it's a wilderness encounter, you won't have any buffs on at the start. So, does your only chance of survival rely on having your protective spell caster getting a higher Initiative roll than the dragon? Seems to me that otherwise the dragon is just going to roast the heck out of you.

I'm asking this because even on Core, that particular encounter seem excessively cruel in its design. Going to kill the dragon at the tower is a lot easier. The initial encounter is just cruelty, depending on the initiative roll.

[InsaneCommander]

31 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

This is a fairly random question mainly to people like @Gromnir who seem to know a heck of a lot about the game.

Suppose that you play on Unfair difficulty. In Act 3, there's that quest where you have to kill the dragon with Greybor. This quest contains a wilderness encounter where you suddenly come across the dragon, it breathes at you and then flies away pretty soon after that.

Now, since it's a wilderness encounter, you won't have any buffs on at the start. So, does your only chance of survival rely on having your protective spell caster getting a higher Initiative roll than the dragon? Seems to me that otherwise the dragon is just going to roast the heck out of you.

I'm asking this because even on Core, that particular encounter seem excessively cruel in its design. Going to kill the dragon at the tower is a lot easier. The initial encounter is just cruelty, depending on the initiative roll.

I was not playing on Unfair, but when that encounter triggered I immediately dispersed my party. And once I identified who the dragon was targeting, I had all other characters who were not in the dragon's breath range come back and attack.

[Gromnir]

46 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

This is a fairly random question mainly to people like @Gromnir who seem to know a heck of a lot about the game.

Suppose that you play on Unfair difficulty. In Act 3, there's that quest where you have to kill the dragon with Greybor. This quest contains a wilderness encounter where you suddenly come across the dragon, it breathes at you and then flies away pretty soon after that.

Now, since it's a wilderness encounter, you won't have any buffs on at the start. So, does your only chance of survival rely on having your protective spell caster getting a higher Initiative roll than the dragon? Seems to me that otherwise the dragon is just going to roast the heck out of you.

I'm asking this because even on Core, that particular encounter seem excessively cruel in its design. Going to kill the dragon at the tower is a lot easier. The initial encounter is just cruelty, depending on the initiative roll.

if you know about the encounter, you may prepare a bit, no? first time were different, but subsequent we always have potions o' protection from fire in a slot for every companion and critter if am in the general time and location nexus for the encounter. you may quaff a potion and then move in a round.

at higher difficulties, the improved initiative feat(s) is almost a prerequisite, and the dragon has unimpressive initiative, so is a better than fair chance you got multiple casters able to achieve buffs as well as seelah casting mark of justice. have more than once done enough damage to send the dragon scampering before it attack as the big lizard will retreat if it takes enough damage. is possible to end the encounter before the flame breath.  however, am conflicted 'bout trying to drive off the dragon or just enduring some pain. in the balance, am thinking it makes more sense to focus on mitigation o' losses, but chances are we waste at least one possible reload seeing if we beat bloody the dragon so as to premature end the encounter. if we get initiative wins for sosiel and seelah, then chances are we try for the fight rather than flight option.

animal companions resurrect after a rest, so death o' critters should be considered from a tactical pov. not being mounted is our preference, 'cause the dragon will spend a round destroying your critters and then escaping. mounted means your companions is killed along with the animal they is riding. unmounted means you may distance your squishy and expensive-to-resurrect humanoid comps. 

spreading out is a good idea, but with our recent azata skald build we didn't wanna spread too much. ordinarily we move companions out and away from the animal companions who serve as cannon fodder.

and keep in mind, the encounter is over kinda quick, so as long as you survive, even only barely, you may raise dead and heal and whatnot. is not an encounter you are s'posed to win. assume you are gonna need raise or resurrect a couple party members means needing doing so is less painful.

though am admitting given the somewhat unimpressive 1007 haul from killing the dragon, in addition to need paying greybor, the purchase o' extra scrolls and potions to survive the encounter is a bit irksome, especial at a point in the game when you may not yet be richie rich... rich. is a loser quest from a financial pov.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

if you know about the encounter, you may prepare a bit, no?

Yep. And this, in my view, is one of the less enjoyable aspects of the game. There's plenty of stuff where your only option tends to be: die, figure out what you should have done, reload, try again. It would be a lot better if, instead of "die", you could "respond to the challenge", but often it is really quite difficult.

I wonder if you agree.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

I wonder if you agree.

the game scales down based on meta and munchkiny exploitation, assuming that the hardcore fanbase is not averse to needing resort to guides and the like to successful navigate the game if one did not invest substantial hours in the beta. such an approach is not reasonable, 'cause you can't knock off 10 points o' ab and ac from a boss beatable by a party which uses guarded hearth, mark of justice, madness domain, metal curse and skald song exploits simultaneous to be manageable and then assume a casual player will be okie dokie with the unfair boss being handicapped down to core levels... simple knock off a bit o' stat bloat? that said, am not knowing sales totals, but so far it appears such an approach is working, so is little motivation for owlcat to change their design philosophy.

even so, am feeling much sympathy for any sane player who perhaps has only a passing knowledge o' owlcat's unique interpretation o' pathfinder 1st edition. similar, those encounters which is clear designed as surprises for even knowledgeable players become well nigh insurmountable and prohibitive frustrating for more casual players. punishment level is such an odd way to design a game, but if the typical owlcat fan who complains 'bout stat bloat and unfair encounters has also already completed the game and is purchasing season 2 pass, then why is owlcat gonna listen to what is being said when is far more reasonable to listen to dollars or rubbles or whatever. 

wotr is designed to punish casual players. am not understanding the appeal; am thinking it would be a better game and more inclusive w/o such an approach, but is tough to argue with success, eh? 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 13, 2022 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

I tried to date Vellexia but it didn't end well. I wish I could put all the heads of these important people I kill on a spike and parade with it. Perhaps then I'd get Nocticula's attention. All that is left now is the arena.

[bugarup]

You can only successfully, er, "date" Lexi with a demon, she's into dudes who like to ~assert dominance~. I loved Trickster's way with her, though it might seem a little objectifying. 

Also, Wrathfinder requiring meta knowledge on top of system minutiae is why I don't feel like I deprive myself of challenge in a fun way when I mod the **** out of all the nuisances. Fighting cheating with cheating is only fair. 

There is impossibly tacky devil hanging out now in my Aeon's HQ. Golden frilly skirt, three set of wings and all of them gaudy, three sets of horns and all of them overcompensating for something, ripped like a gym freak too. All he misses is a purple feathered hat and I'd feel compelled to build a brothel. 

[Gromnir]

update

HA! Good Fun!