Politics US Edition Volume II

[Elerond]

18 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

His argument is that lying to the police is not (inherently) a crime in most places outside the US, ie if the police asked you in Finland if you stole a car and you say 'no' do you get arrested and charged with lying to the police along with stealing the car if they think you did it?

Suspect of crime can't be arrested or charged for lying to police about crime they have  accused of committing

But if I am asked did Zoraptor stole a car and say 'no' , when I know that you have stolen the car in question I will commit crime even if I lie because I paid Zoraptor to stole the car in question.

EDIT: It seems that also in New Zealand it is crime to lie to police

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/93962601/woman-admits-making-false-statement-to-police

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM328799.html

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Elerond

[Zoraptor]

I already said it was a crime to lie to police here in certain circumstances and listed a few. What you cannot do is find out someone is lying, get them to sign a statement with that lie while interviewing them as a witness, then charge them with lying. If they're a suspect they have to be cautioned and you cannot charge someone for lying to protect themselves. The woman in the article was (effectively) providing a (false) alibi for someone else. Not at all applicable to Flynn, unless the US was planning to throw out the Vienna Convention and arrest Kislyak.

8 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

Censorship is when it's done by the government, not when it's done by an owner of a platform. If I run a gardening podcast and I decide to stop letting someone on my podcast because every time they come on my podcast they say something stupid like that petunias are better than tulips, that's not censorship, because that person is still allowed to start their own podcast with all the hateful petunia related opinions they want. That's just me exercising the rights inherent in me being the person who runs that podcast.

Censorship is a power thing. Big C Censorship is a governmental thing, but any entity with enough power can little c censor- the church would be a good historical example, eppo si muove etc. There's plenty of threats leveled against social media companies to do what governments want voluntarily, or be forced to by regulation too.

More importantly, tulips are crap. 3 days of mediocre flowers, if you're lucky, 362 days of hiding under the ground then looking like an anaemic agapanthus. I'm no great fan of petunias but in competition with perhaps the most overrated flower in existence they're a sunflower compared to ryegrass.

[Malcador]

14 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Here, in a Flynn type situation you'd have to caution him if you suspected he was going to incriminate himself, or if you suspected he'd committed a crime. If you don't, you risk everything being thrown out. Here's a decent summary from the CAB/ CL

Interesting. I am not sure we have same level of protection here, cops are likely to just let you hang yourself but I will have to check.

[Chairchucker]

4 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

More importantly, tulips are crap. 3 days of mediocre flowers, if you're lucky, 362 days of hiding under the ground then looking like an anaemic agapanthus. I'm no great fan of petunias but in competition with perhaps the most overrated flower in existence they're a sunflower compared to ryegrass.

Wow, looks like someone's disinvited from the podcast.

[Elerond]

5 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

I already said it was a crime to lie to police here in certain circumstances and listed a few. What you cannot do is find out someone is lying, get them to sign a statement with that lie while interviewing them as a witness, then charge them with lying. If they're a suspect they have to be cautioned and you cannot charge someone for lying to protect themselves. The woman in the article was (effectively) providing a (false) alibi for someone else. Not at all applicable to Flynn, unless the US was planning to throw out the Vienna Convention and arrest Kislyak.

In my understanding you cannot do that in USA either.

According to that article police didn't know who had hurt the child when they charged said woman of lying them. And I don't think person is providing alibi when they hide existence of person in question from police. As woman brought child to hospital where doctors called police because child injures show that they were caused by another human. Then woman in question tells police that child has been with her whole time and she doesn't know how child has sustained the injuries. Then during investigation police finds out that child had been in care of someone else than woman in question for sometime, which lead police to charge her for lying to them, even though they had at that time determined who had hurt the child.

Flynn case isn't really that different, even if its more political

https://apnews.com/article/d47a5be3e46442d0a1243c7dc52278f3

[ComradeYellow]

9 hours ago, BruceVC said:

QFT, I like Comrade but there is a real irony with someone espousing the autocratic states of China and Russia and then complaining about censorship from the likes of Twitter and FB 

I'm glad you like me, but Russia and China are the only two states in existence demonstrating internal stability and actually have national plans on going forward into the 21st century, including environmental and planetary sustainability measures.  Nothing like this is occuring in the west as the population remains divided and is tearing itself apart in the U.S. especially.

Until we address these contradictions, I simply cannot be staunchly anti-Eastern, especially when they actually establish clear goals, and aren't surrounded by inbred rednecks with an IQ of 80.

[Hurlshort]

It sure makes it easy to distinguish between the real posters and the fake ones when the fake ones speak in absolutes. I mean, even Skarpie leaves himself a bit of wiggle room.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, ComradeMaster said:

I'm glad you like me, but Russia and China are the only two states in existence demonstrating internal stability and actually have national plans on going forward into the 21st century, including environmental and planetary sustainability measures.  Nothing like this is occuring in the west as the population remains divided and is tearing itself apart in the U.S. especially.

Until we address these contradictions, I simply cannot be staunchly anti-Eastern, especially when they actually establish clear goals, and aren't surrounded by inbred rednecks with an IQ of 80.

I like you for several reasons but particularly because you generally are prepared to engage in debates and sometimes these topics are on the opposite side ideologically of what I believe....well sort of you are on the " opposite  " because as I am sure you will remember you also support the idea of Social Democracy like the Nordic countries which are not at all  like the autocratic states of Russia and China. The Nordic countries have rights and institutions that include freedom of speech, free media and independent courts from there Democratically elected governments. Russia and China dont have these important parts of what makes our societies great places to live which is exactly why many of our countries are the targets of mass immigration and the illegal immigration is the problem many our governments grapple with 

But you can see the inconsistency with what you have mentioned to me in the past on this forum and I hope you will clarify what you have said. Do you support the Nordic countries and there hybrid capitalist\socialist systems or do you support Russia and China's system of government....I am unsure how anyone could truly support both in any serious ideological debate about what are the best ways to govern any country?

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Elerond said:

In my understanding you cannot do that in USA either.

 

you cannot. even where is not strictly illegal to do so, is unethical and would result in not only law enforcement being subject to discipline but would be a fruit of the poisonous tree situation and the evidence would be disallowed.

the notion that flynn's signed declaration o' truthful testimony to law enforcement woulda' been disallowed in most western countries, much less most o' the world, (am honest unable to speak to south america but most o' asia and africa is having a jaundiced pov when it comes to suspect rights) is based on ignorance. 

hard to believe this is still being argued. not really a fuzzy grey area.

yet another gop lawsuit bites the dust... dismissed with prejudice.

this were the curious lawsuit where a pa gop legislator who successfully won reelection in 2020 were claiming he were injured by the pennsylvania mail-in scheme passed and signed into law last year... and then brought a lawsuit to enjoin all pennsylvania 202 election mail-in ballots received, but only after the election results were certified.

...

the genuine strange aspect o' this lawsuit were that it made it to the state supreme court.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

On 11/27/2020 at 11:45 AM, Skarpen said:

I don't think it matters as the endgame seems to be Supreme Court.

another misunderstanding. 

is two potential cases going to The Court. first one is the sequestered votes case which The Court is ignoring-- The Court received the request to hear but they have made no move to do anything 'bout the issue. the taciturn SCOTUS approach as to the sequestered ballots is understandable as the issue is moot-- weren't enough sequestered pa votes to make any kinda difference. why would the Court intervene in a contentious political fight where their decision would have no impact on the final outcome?

the other case, which has rudy attempting to disallow more than a million votes based on an equal protection claim without a showing fraud, or proof for that matter, does not offer SCOTUS the possibility o' handing trump co a win. SCOTUS cannot review what weren't argued and decided. even if rudy were to win his current case, all that would happen is the first court which heard the case would take up the issue once more, but this time the standing issue would be satisfied, as that is what is being appealed.

is tough to see an endgame where trump is successful in Court. there were a possibility before the first rudy fail in the 3rd district that the goal were to achieve SCOTUS review, but given the narrow appeal after that loss, am not seeing a viable SCOTUS win for trump.

assuming there is an endgame, the following is the actual strategy:

the shenanigans by rudy is a delay tactic while he, ellis and others spout conspiracy theories outside the confines o' courtrooms where they would need provide real proof. trump recent suggested that he would leave the wh only if biden proved his 80 million votes were legit, when actual burden is on trump and his lawyers to prove the votes were fraudulent.

...

is tough to see how the political fight where pennsylvania legislators disenfranchise millions will be more successful than the legal battle rudy is comical fighting, but if the choice is between no possibility o' a win (legal) and a novel approach which has state legislators ignore election results (political,) then am seeing the appeal o' the political route. however, keep in mind that trump needs political mutinies in three o' the battleground states he lost to change biden's electoral college win.

a SCOTUS endgame is doomed. political, on the other hand... likely doomed, but the thing too many people keep forgetting is that there is no Constitutional right for Americans to vote for President. still seems doomed, but am trying to see a reason to fight other then the obvious, which is grift. as long as trump continues to fight against the inevitable, he has the opportunity to request his supporters contribute money, and currently 75% o' such monies is going to the trump leadership pac. looks like a scam. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

14 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Russia and China are the only two states in existence demonstrating internal stability and actually have national plans on going forward into the 21st century, including environmental and planetary sustainability measures. 

Say what? 

[ComradeYellow]

21 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Say what? 

I know, it may come off as a shock to a western elitist, but these countries are actually quite politically united and are putting forth big plans for the century.

This is all while the U.S. is divided like a knife slicing open a torso.  Or the 1861 Anaconda Plan.

Also, for the board Republicans, I really can't see Trump pulling it off at this point, but even if the SC gives it to him, what do you think the rioters and protesters will do at that point?  They will be augmented with newfound rage and really start f'ing stuff up.  Not that I care either way, but swindling and bullying your way to a victory will have repercussions.

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, ComradeMaster said:

I know, it may come off as a shock to a western elitist, but these countries are actually quite politically united and are putting forth big plans for the century.

 

 

If unity at gunpoint is your idea of how to run a railroad you can count me out. In China and even Russia dissenters are imprisioned, shot, poisoned, or just disappeared. You want to see that kind of s--t here? I'll take disunity any day. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

It's kinda funny that China's government and economic system is basically everything neoliberalism tried to be but ended up being cast as it's global opponent by gullible leftists who want it and conspiracy addled righties who think it's evil incarnate. Perhaps I'm just too much of a troublemaker, but being ruled by a cabal of Harvard business and/or law degree holders is bad regardless if they're politically united or disunited. 

[ShadySands]

13 hours ago, Gromnir said:

is two potential cases going to The Court. first one is the sequestered votes case which The Court is ignoring-- The Court received the request to hear but they have made no move to do anything 'bout the issue. the taciturn SCOTUS approach as to the sequestered ballots is understandable as the issue is moot-- weren't enough sequestered pa votes to make any kinda difference. why would the Court intervene in a contentious political fight where their decision would have no impact on the final outcome?

But Trump appointed 3 justices to the Supreme Court, they owe him a second term. 

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

But Trump appointed 3 justices to the Supreme Court, they owe him a second term. 

Waiting for the tweet saying this.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

But Trump appointed 3 justices to the Supreme Court, they owe him a second term. 

 

36 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Waiting for the tweet saying this.

the anticipated trump phone call with Justice Barrett:

Spoiler

 

am wondering when somebody gets around to informing trump that Justices have lifetime appointments.

HA! Good Fun!

[Chairchucker]

10 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

If unity at gunpoint is your idea of how to run a railroad you can count me out. In China and even Russia dissenters are imprisioned, shot, poisoned, or just disappeared. You want to see that kind of s--t here? I'll take disunity any day. 

Yeah, no one's surprised that the fascist states are politically united.

[Raithe]

18 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

If unity at gunpoint is your idea of how to run a railroad you can count me out. In China and even Russia dissenters are imprisioned, shot, poisoned, or just disappeared. You want to see that kind of s--t here? I'll take disunity any day. 

Exactly that.  Getting to watch that slow cycle in Hong Kong as China establishes "unity" by basically making it illegal to dissent.

[Guard Dog]

Even the National Review, the conservative magazine of record, calls Trumps fight disgraceful

[HoonDing]

"In China and even Russia dissenters are imprisioned, shot, poisoned, or just disappeared. You want to see that kind of s--t here?"

 

Amerika definitely could use some re-education camps

[Gfted1]

Looking at our "free for all" society its hard to disagree. I mean, not re-education camps, but we could use five across the eyes.

[Malcador]

2 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Amerika definitely could use some re-education camps

They need education camps, you mean.

[Guard Dog]

A wise man in the USA today should give up on his fellow Americans as well as his government. Not only can they not be saved from themselves, they don't even want to be. A wise man should be making sound financial decisions and preparing to take care of himself and his family because you should assume no one else can ever be counted on. If you are in debt, get out. If you are not don't go in. Don't spend money needlessly. Have a store of non perishable food in your home. At least three weeks worth. Buy a gun and, most importantly, learn to use it. Invest in diverse things and at least half in assets not tied to the dollar's value. Learn what hyper-inflation is and how to deal with it. 

You've got to look out for yourself. No one else will. That is the truth. 

Just my $.02

[Chairchucker]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

They need education camps, you mean.

So like

 

just better schools?