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Politics - wait for it... wait for it... 2020 isn't over yet


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2 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

MedicineDan is Eldar/Cantousent. He's been around for a long time and has been pretty consistent in terms of beliefs. He's also shared a lot of his personal story over the years and is very likely a real person. :)

 

SonicMage/ComradeMaster is just looking to get a reaction out of people with every post, and he speaks in meaningless pejoratives. Personal background story is fairly flimsy. Honestly could just be a bot.

I actually did get MedicineDan and ComradeMaster mixed up. Whoops, that's my bad...thanks. Those nonsense double noun names get to sound a lot alike after seeing too many of them over the years, and it didn't help that that particular post really rather read like one of SonicMage's, but that makes Malcador's asking for an explanation make a lot more sense - couldn't really understand why he'd bother to ask, :p.

Edited by Bartimaeus

Put fascists and sociopaths on your ignore list.

Quote

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

 

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I missed the confusion.  I prefer my ideas to be the point rather than my personality, but apparently the way I post is somehow *just* distinctive enough that various people recognize me, which is too bad.  I want to have the give and take of ideas but kind of at the outside rather than in the middle.  Anyhow, I was getting the impression that some people were mightily irritated with me, including someone for whom I have quite a bit of respect, and so here I am, stuck with the worst user name evar.  I know my opinions are not always popular, but they are always sincere.  I have no problem being associated with someone else.  It would be wildly perverse if I did, considering my history.  Enough about me except to say that I *am* indeed a real person and some folks around here have even met me.  I'm in pretty regular contact with one of them.

Mal asked for an example of something and I can't remember what.  I *think* it was about Biden being fake.  I'm actually not sure if he is being fake.  Biden has made himself an irrelevancy by admitting he's merely a transitional figure. I actually doubt he makes it through a first term if he wins. His candidacy, however, while trying to appeal to a sense of normalcy, is a cover as it seems to me.  I believe the left exemplifies something I believe Voltaire said.  It goes something like this, I think...?  "Some men employ words for the sole purpose to disguise their thoughts."

Grom and Hurlshot had points I thought I might address, but I don't have time to go back and find them.  Anyhow, the Blood War can continue without me providing one more victim for the moment.  I'll come scrap with people later.

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"Not for the sake of much time..."

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Pelosi came out today saying Biden should refuse to debate Trump. Dammit they had best not deprive us the one thing about this entire miserable political exercise that might be enjoyable: watching a feckless blowhard argue with a doddering half-wit. 

I'd watch Trump make his speech tonight but the Marlins are playing the Mets and I would much rather watch that. 

"The man of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys. Power, like a desolating pestilence, pollutes whate'er it touches; and obedience, bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, makes slaves of men, and of the human frame a mechanized automaton."

P.B. Shelley

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White House Building ‘Dossier’ On Journalist Reporting On Trump Private Businesses

trump ain't a big fan of mr. fahrenthold.

excerpt:

As it rose again, the Trump Foundation continued to be used to benefit its namesake.

The best illustration of that was the charity to which the foundation gave its two largest gifts of the 1990s. The Trump Foundation gave $50,000 in 1995, and another $50,000 in 1999, to a nonprofit called the National Museum of Catholic Art and History.

Those gifts, not previously reported, seemed like an odd choice for big charitable dollars.

The museum was housed for much of the 1990s in a former headquarters for “Fat Tony” Salerno of the Genovese crime family in East Harlem. It had few visitors and little art. A Village Voice reporter, visiting in 2001, said the collection included a photo of the pope, some nun dolls bought from the Home Shopping Network, and — just off the dining room — “a black Jacuzzi decorated with simmering candles, gold-plated soap dishes, and kitsch angel figurines.”

Trump is not Catholic.

But he and the museum had a mutual friend.

Ed Malloy, who was then the chairman of the museum’s board, was the head of the powerful labor group, the Building and Construction Trades Council. News reports from the time indicate that he was a business ally of Trump’s: Union members worked on Trump buildings, and Malloy helped Trump line up vital financing from a union pension fund.

“Contributing to this museum — you know, it only made sense in the context of relationships,” said Wayne Barrett, the Village Voice reporter, in a recent interview.

The Trump campaign did not respond to requests for comment about these donations.

Malloy died in 2012.

The Catholic museum shut down in 2010.

“I cannot give you a comment. I don’t want to be quoted on anything,” said Christina Cox, the museum’s former director, when The Post reached her by phone.

At times, Trump seemed to make light of others’ expectations about his generosity.

In 1997, for instance, he was “principal for a day” at a public school in an impoverished area of the Bronx. The chess team was holding a bake sale, Hot & Crusty danishes and croissants. They were $5,000 short of what they needed to travel to a tournament.

Trump had brought something to wow them.

“He handed them a fake million-dollar bill,” said David MacEnulty, a teacher and the chess team’s coach.

The team’s parent volunteers were thrilled.

Then disappointment.

Trump then gave them $200 in real money and drove away in a limousine.

Why just $200?

“I have no idea,” MacEnulty said. “He was about the most clueless person I’ve ever seen in that regard.”

The happy ending, he said, was that a woman read about Trump’s gift in the New York Times, called the school and donated the $5,000. “I am ashamed to be the same species as this man,” MacEnulty recalled her saying.

end excerpt

Room rentals, resort fees and furniture removal: How Trump’s company charged the U.S. government more than $900,000

...

of course am disgusted by the white supremacists who support the President. that said, every national public figure will attract followers who is more worthy o' contempt than admiration... though trump has done less to distance himself from such folks than good conscience would demand.  however, am most disappointed in the genuine devout christians who advocate for trump in spite o' what is known 'bout him.  you folks are aware trump is a petty, faithless (at least to his wives if not God) mendacious and selfish man who possess almost no qualities you would describe as christian. nevertheless, he is your Chosen One candidate. purely a mercenary relationship? a deal with the proverbial devil? 

we will say, "good day to you sir." 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Funny enough I also wouldn't recommend Biden debates Trump because that is normally done when you have well researched ideas on policies and have a deep understanding of  why the polices should be implemented. The expectation is generally that both candidates have the same overall objective of making the country better albeit in different ways and you normally gain real insights into there future views

But with Trump his  approach and strategy is pure theater and hyperbole and they are hoping if you can scare and convince enough Americans that  "Biden will take everything away from you that defines your citizenship and what matters  " ....now what would be point of Biden trying to engage in this type of criticism? 

Biden is good at normal debates around topics that people can understand and connect with and are based on the actual reality of the USA , Trump is much better at debating in a world of chaos and lack of veracity as long as the point resonates on some levels 

It would be pointless IMO for this normal type of debate because Biden may even become unnecessarily unsettled....this election is not about the actual polices but who can scare the USA more about how bad the other candidate is. I doubt we will ever see this type of circus again ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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People who fear debating are cowards and should be ashamed. If Trump is horrible you should be able to trounce him. the debate isn't about convincing Trump. It is about convincing voters. The best way to deal with Trump's lies is to confront them with facts not bury your heads in the sand. And, no, claling him Nazi, racist, and other nasty stuff is not a convincing argument.

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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41 minutes ago, Volourn said:

 And, no, claling him Nazi, racist, and other nasty stuff is not a convincing argument.

8491c398f13707437cbb08acc49aa4c08e602826

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Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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@Hurlshot is an over-educated Gen-X Californian snob and @Gfted1 is a protofascist loser.

Some serious opposition I have 'round here!

“If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other.” 

-Ulysses S. Grant

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22 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

@Hurlshot is an over-educated Gen-X Californian snob

"snob" is a cut (buddy, am looking right at you in the mirror) but am not sure 'bout the other stuff. over-educated?

scene from the tick animated series.

Professor Chromedome:
[screaming at the TV] Mung Mung, you oily little sellout! Wannabes, all of you! Spit-shining your prosthetic limbs and whitewashing your liver spots for this wretched, back-patting smarty-party!

Chairface Chippendale:
I take it you won't be attending.

Professor Chromedome:
The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does wear the 'Hello My Name is' badge! He strikes from below, like a viper! Or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around! He has only the one purpose! Do bad things to good people... MIT SCIENCE!

from our pov, "over-educated" as a slight or critique is a 2020 shibboleth. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps we has taken a shot at native californians more than once, but is rare serious as we love the granola munching and van wearing tree huggers as much as any o' God's children.

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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13 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

You can swap left for right here. Did you miss all the stuff that happened in Portland? The Trump administration is just as keen on taking away your freedom as a potential Biden administration. 

But I find both accusations scurrilous and unfair, what are real examples of either candidate practically somehow implementing a policy that will take away the freedom of anyone in the USA

I can believe there is real concern from some people because that is what people keep suggesting but we first have to understand what do we mean by freedom  in the context of how that can ever be taken away in a  country like the USA?

No candidate is going to take anyones freedom away unless I am misunderstanding the definition 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, Volourn said:

People who fear debating are cowards and should be ashamed. If Trump is horrible you should be able to trounce him. the debate isn't about convincing Trump. It is about convincing voters. The best way to deal with Trump's lies is to confront them with facts not bury your heads in the sand. And, no, claling him Nazi, racist, and other nasty stuff is not a convincing argument.

I appreciate your support for the principle of a normal debate but this is an exception to the rule because of reality of the Trump did in the last election

In 2016 he successfully manipulated most of the world with endless debates about things he said instead of discussing the practical side of his policies ...we dont want to allow Biden to get pulled into a debate that is more about populism and alternative facts. So Biden mustn't react to meaningless pressure from people who dont care about the actual debate but rather hope Trump may make Biden look weak or uncertain....it doesnt seem like a valid reason for a debate?

Trump has helped remind us that white people do matter but we dont another 4 years of his presidency for something that was always true....it seems to be unnecessary after the last 4 years. You must never be ashamed about your race, you dont chose it and you are not defined by bad historical behavior your ancestors may have done 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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By definition, gov't is deisgned to take away freedom away. Want proof? Look at the number of books for laws. there is a reason why law firms have people whose job is literally to read those books non stop to find some obscure law. Probably laws about how to tie your shoelaces legally. LMAO

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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25 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

"snob" is a cut (buddy, am looking right at you in the mirror) but am not sure 'bout the other stuff. over-educated?

scene from the tick animated series.

Professor Chromedome:
[screaming at the TV] Mung Mung, you oily little sellout! Wannabes, all of you! Spit-shining your prosthetic limbs and whitewashing your liver spots for this wretched, back-patting smarty-party!

Chairface Chippendale:
I take it you won't be attending.

Professor Chromedome:
The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does wear the 'Hello My Name is' badge! He strikes from below, like a viper! Or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around! He has only the one purpose! Do bad things to good people... MIT SCIENCE!

from our pov, "over-educated" as a slight or critique is a 2020 shibboleth. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps we has taken a shot at native californians more than once, but is rare serious as we love the granola munching and van wearing tree huggers as much as any o' God's children.

 Gromnir who are you voting for this election, I remember in the last election most US members said there vote is confidential which surprised me considering the obvious reasons people would be able to explain why they like a certain candidate 

Your voting choice is only confidential if you feel somehow posting  an informed decision cant be shared and I can tell you that I can articulate valid reasons why people may vote for either candidate or Libertarian 

There is  no wrong candidate in this decision o:)

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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You know, if you are incapable of facing your political opponent in a debate, and strip the veil of his/her lies, then are you really fit to take the highest position in a country and be its leader? 

You look weak and meek to any third party observer. 

 

Are you truly fit for a leader if you have charisma of a jellyfish? 

How will you be able to convince people to some difficult decisions, which are inevitable after the pandemics, economic crisis, and mass social unrest and conflict? 

They just do not want to put Biden against Trump, because he would obliterate him in a debate, as Joe cannot speak on his own well. 

They know this, and their goal is to win with Biden as a candidate and then use the VP to actually run the country. 

Look how sanitazied is any interview, broadcast with Biden. 

Edited by Darkpriest
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1 hour ago, Darkpriest said:

You know, if you are incapable of facing your political opponent in a debate, and strip the veil of his/her lies, then are you really fit to take the highest position in a country and be its leader? 

You look weak and meek to any third party observer. 

 

Are you truly fit for a leader if you have charisma of a jellyfish? 

How will you be able to convince people to some difficult decisions, which are inevitable after the pandemics, economic crisis, and mass social unrest and conflict? 

They just do not want to put Biden against Trump, because he would obliterate him in a debate, as Joe cannot speak on his own well. 

They know this, and their goal is to win with Biden as a candidate and then use the VP to actually run the country. 

Look how sanitazied is any interview, broadcast with Biden. 

Look you make some good points here, I just still believe this debate is not going to fundamentally change any ones opinion because of the unusual intransigence that exists where people in this election are going to only vote for one person irrespective of what the other side claims....so your valid reasoning doesnt really apply in this case. Are you honestly unsure who you will vote for ....if you are truly uncertain then the debate is important but I have never met heard anyone who is unsure at this stage. And yes I do think Trump has an advantage here but its not your normal advantage

I do have a concern with a Biden win, I am worried that the Democrats will overact to address "Trump legacy issues " and want to implement policies that somehow vindicate this strange reality we are seeing where we are suppose to accept ANTIFA anarchy and or accept some of the BLM extreme views that the USA is fundamentally racist and we need to change systems or policies that arent necessary ....Im sorry but the Portland reality is not something you actually want as an acceptable form of social protest  in any lawful Democracy 

And I sincerely hope you wrong about the Harris outcome because that would be a well meaning decision but it would be a bad decision and I would stop supporting Biden 

I have no issue with Harris  but Biden is the  reason most people are supporting the Democratic and if that is not the reality then people have been misled and I would be disappointed by the Democrats narrative

 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Look you make some good points here, I just still believe this debate is not going to fundamentally change any ones opinion because of the unusual intransigence that exists where people in this election are going to only vote for one person irrespective of what the other side claims....so your valid reasoning doesnt really apply in this case. Are you honestly unsure who you will vote for ....if you are truly uncertain then the debate is important but I have never met heard anyone who is unsure at this stage. And yes I do think Trump has an advantage here but its not your normal advantage

I don't think you are right about this. You seem to focus only on the vocal supporters who tends to be what we call in Poland iron electorate, which means the people who will always vote for the candidate of their party of choice. But I doubt even now that democrats and republican iron electorate together consists of more than 40% of voters. Most voters will pick a candidate somewhere during the election process, that's why Trump campaigning to the last day and Clinton skipping some states were crucial to his victory. 

Also there are the people who really avoid politics in a daily life, but would watch a debate or two and decide their vote based on that. So already skipping a debate between candidates makes them vote for default which would be in this case a sitting president. 

I'm certain that skipping a debate makes it impossible for the runner up to win with sitting president. Why I'm certain? Because I've just seen it happen in Poland's election a couple of weeks ago. Sitting president and the runner up were so divisive that they couldn't even agree on a debate which resulted in the sitting president win. The other example is 1995 election where the sitting president Lech Wałęsa (the man who defeated communism) lost to Aleksander Kwaśniewski (candidate of communist party) mainly because of his performance in debates. 

So in conclusion skipping the debates is in my opinion a forfeit on Biden's part. Then again Biden have no chance in debate with Trump so there's that.

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25 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

I don't think you are right about this. You seem to focus only on the vocal supporters who tends to be what we call in Poland iron electorate, which means the people who will always vote for the candidate of their party of choice. But I doubt even now that democrats and republican iron electorate together consists of more than 40% of voters. Most voters will pick a candidate somewhere during the election process, that's why Trump campaigning to the last day and Clinton skipping some states were crucial to his victory. 

Also there are the people who really avoid politics in a daily life, but would watch a debate or two and decide their vote based on that. So already skipping a debate between candidates makes them vote for default which would be in this case a sitting president. 

I'm certain that skipping a debate makes it impossible for the runner up to win with sitting president. Why I'm certain? Because I've just seen it happen in Poland's election a couple of weeks ago. Sitting president and the runner up were so divisive that they couldn't even agree on a debate which resulted in the sitting president win. The other example is 1995 election where the sitting president Lech Wałęsa (the man who defeated communism) lost to Aleksander Kwaśniewski (candidate of communist party) mainly because of his performance in debates. 

So in conclusion skipping the debates is in my opinion a forfeit on Biden's part. Then again Biden have no chance in debate with Trump so there's that.

Sure, I dont disagree with your overall sentiment 

But lets be very honest what would a typical debate that Trump and Biden would have that would matter to undecided voters. Because I still think we are focusing on the view that a Trump\Biden would be about normal legitimate debate,

Surly in Poland that cant be the only reason the sitting president won, Polish people must have had some views on the reason how to vote outside of just how the candidates didnt agree? 

 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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People continue the lie that BLM/ Antifa never attack/kill people. They did it again. YAY The most peaceful protestors ever.  How many murders and assaults has BLM/Antifa committed sicne this started that the media continues to pretend didn't happen? L0LZ

Edited by Volourn

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

Sure, I dont disagree with your overall sentiment 

But lets be very honest what would a typical debate that Trump and Biden would have that would matter to undecided voters. Because I still think we are focusing on the view that a Trump\Biden would be about normal legitimate debate,

Surly in Poland that cant be the only reason the sitting president won, Polish people must have had some views on the reason how to vote outside of just how the candidates didnt agree? 

Sometimes it's not about the actual topic of debate but the overall presence and performance of the candidate that gets people to vote. For example I don't really remember the Trump/Clinton debate topics but I do remember that Trump owned the stage and his presence. I'm sure that many people were fond of the way he talks rather than what he talks about. The "how" is as much important as "what" in politics and elections.

In Poland Trzaskowski lost because people were afraid his win would mean they will lose the social benefits the ruling party set in place. Sitting president Duda won only 6 out of 16 districts but he won them very high 60-70% while the rest were only slightly won 51-55% by Trzaskowski. The 6 disttict happen to be the poorest ones and highly dependable on social benefits. I think if there was a proper debate Trzaskowski could at least somewhat deflect this accusations and convince people he as a president couldn't take those away. But as there was no actual debate people only got to hear one side.

Edited by Skarpen

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16 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Pelosi came out today saying Biden should refuse to debate Trump. Dammit they had best not deprive us the one thing about this entire miserable political exercise that might be enjoyable: watching a feckless blowhard argue with a doddering half-wit. 

I'd watch Trump make his speech tonight but the Marlins are playing the Mets and I would much rather watch that. 

I dunno, even Trump rambling on for an hour has to be better than baseball.  Would be stupid to skip the debates on Biden's part.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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10 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I dunno, even Trump rambling on for an hour has to be better than baseball.  Would be stupid to skip the debates on Biden's part.

Whatever, baseball is better than soccer. :-

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