Character Progression/Class System

[Ormag]

Somehow I doubt we are getting this in avowed:

So what do you guys predict or wish it's going to be?

A classless system like the Pillars TTRPG josh was working on, in his spare time?

A class or two for each general archetype? 

Or all the classes and dual classing system from Deadfire? (Which is unlikely)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think we'll see either a loose class system like Morrowind (with customizable classes) or a classless system. The latter is most likely, but there's a good deal of variety there so it could work in a variety of ways. I'd be surprised if we didn't see many weapon types and abilities from PoE/Deadfire pop up, but if it is classless it will be interesting to see how they fit in abilities that consume class specific resources (focus, phrases, and wounds).

[Wormerine]

I would bet on a classless system - meaning even if we pick our "class" at character creation it determine our starting point rather then define entire playthrough ala. Skyrim, Dark souls or D:OS2. 

The problem with translating PoE classsystem into FPRPG would be that we would get to play with only one class per playthrough - I feel that class system is best fit for team based games (be it party RPG or multiplayer game) - a bit like kits work in Overwatch and such. Of course, theoretically a class system could lead to better replay value, but I just don’t think it would be a smart investment of resources. hat would be a benefit multiple playthroughs only, which would appeal to only the most hardcore of the hardcore fans, while making initial playthrough possibly less interesting (as major character development decision will be done when starting the game, not throughout it). And making each class fun enough and flexible enough in itself to fill entire playthrough by itself would be quite a feat. 

 

EDIT. Rewritten the post a bit. Typing via phone is hard.

EDIT2. Fixed some further typos. I think those three glasses of wine might have debuffed my spelling skills?

Edited August 2, 2020 by Wormerine

[the_dog_days]

8 hours ago, Ormag said:

So what do you guys predict or wish it's going to be?

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8 hours ago, Ormag said:

 

[Clawdius_Talonious]

I'd like to see a dual classing system, even if it was just a couple of factions from various classes, e.g. Kind Wayfarers and Bleak Walkers for Paladins. I'd like to see it be like the Guilds from Elder Scrolls titles, just limited to joining two.

The way I see that working is through a classless advancement system, as well as a way to advance in the classes to unlock skills and spells possibly through money so XP lets you get classless advancement. 

I've seen someone say they'd like to see Tyranny style rune based magic, I think that would be an interesting way to handle spells. Learning basic runes for things like elements and power level classless and then more advanced runes for Class based magics. This could make things that were OP not stack between classes because they were the same type of rune, or let you learn entirely new rune types from your class. The rune we see used in the reveal could require being drawn every time you cast a spell as a reload animation sort of so more advanced sigils require more time.

Then you could have other ways to cast based on class of course, Barbarians shouts, Paladin auras, Chants and so on. Rogue skills and Fighter skills would probably not exactly count as magic, but I'm not the one handling game balance in those regards.

I don't think it will be handled that way, but if I could have it be any way at all I feel like that would be pretty awesome.

[Madscientist]

At the moment everything is just speculation, so here are my thoughts:

I really like Gothic 1+2. So when you gain a level you get points and you need to find a trainer to get better. There are some trainers who teach some basic stuff but for the advanced stuff you need to join a faction or find well hidden Trainers. Joining a faction or being accepted by a trainer takes lots of efford, so you will meet several of them before you make the final choice. This way you kind of have several different classes, but you select them through your actions in the game, not at the start.

Depending on how well defined your character is ( are you a specific person with fixed name and background or can you be anything?) you may select a "class" at the start similar to Tyranny or D:OS2: You select your race, gender, background and starting stats and abilities, but it does not prevent you from learning anything else later.

[kanisatha]

If the game is going to have classes, I want them to be true classes (my very strong personal preference). Or else, no classes at all. What I absolutely don't want is superficial pseudo-classes that are classes in name only and have minimal to no differentiation between them, such as the "classes" in the D:OS games. A hard no to a D:OS-like system. Haven't played Tyranny, so can't speak to its system.

[Boeroer]

if it would use Josh's TTRPG class(less) system that would be great. The multiclass system of Deadfire (or something along the lines) would also be nice. I guess the game will not have as many abilites to pick from though (as is the case with most single character first-person games). Passives are easy and cheap to develop, but active abilities are expensive because of animation, VFX and SFX. Since most players only play a game once (and most of those don't even finish) it seems like a waste of resources to develop a ton of abilites that most players won't even see/use. In party based games that's different.

[Madscientist]

In single character games you have to do everything yourself (weapons and magic, damage+healing+status effects) so usually they are classless and you can learn everything. The downside is that all chars usually feel very similar in the end. In Skyrim you are master of everything in the end.

The downside of a class system is that you have to chose a class at the beginning before you know what the game throws at you. In a party based game your companions can do stuff you cannot do well, but in a single character game you have to do everything yourself.

Thats why I think a system with limited skill points combined with the need to unlock a specialized trainer to spend them is the best way. First you can explore the world a bit to see what you face and what options you have and then you have to chose which way you want to approach things. For example first you meet the fighting guild, the mage guild and a monk order and then you can chose which of them to join. Of course those choices should be exclusive to some degree. It makes no sense that you are the leader of all groups at once, including opposing groups like the city guards and the assassin guild, like in the TES games.

[Baity]

I'd love a class system like FFXIV where you can effectively learn all the skills and classes eventually, but only "Equip" one at a time.  I prefer to work on one character rather than have to keep replaying the early game over and over for each class or each configuration.

 

[the_dog_days]

On 8/4/2020 at 4:57 AM, Madscientist said:

n single character games you have to do everything yourself (weapons and magic, damage+healing+status effects) so usually they are classless and you can learn everything. The downside is that all chars usually feel very similar in the end. In Skyrim you are master of everything in the end.

If this leak is to believed, then the game will be party based.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/xbox-game-studios-otx-you-had-me-at-halo.246538/page-252#post-40806123

For the record, if the leak is real, I suspect that the information is less substantial than it appears mostly 'cause it looks like an early concept wishlist of features rather than a list of things will absolutely be in the game.

[Theonlygarby]

I stopped reading after "real time whether systems"(the leak)

Edited August 6, 2020 by Theonlygarby

[Madscientist]

14 hours ago, the_dog_days said:

If this leak is to believed, then the game will be party based.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/xbox-game-studios-otx-you-had-me-at-halo.246538/page-252#post-40806123

For the record, if the leak is real, I suspect that the information is less substantial than it appears mostly 'cause it looks like an early concept wishlist of features rather than a list of things will absolutely be in the game.

Very interesting.

It would be nice if he gave a source for that info. Officially we only have the trailer and an old interview where they wanted to make a game like skyrim.

[ComradeYellow]

RGB is the best character creation system if done right.  It's simple yet complex at the same time.  What matters most is the game world and how your character growth interacts with it.  Think Witcher 3 but a better more fleshed out Obsidian version.

Red Skills

Green Skills

Blue Skills

You pick one on level up and it determines certain attributes and traits.  Like picking too much Red and not enough Green or Blue will make your character big and strong but really dumb and poorly resourceful if things get ugly etc.  Each color gives subtle augments your character.

[Ormag]

15 hours ago, the_dog_days said:

If this leak is to believed, then the game will be party based..

No?

"- you’ll be able to have companions (different than Outer Worlds)"

Probably just means that you are going to have only one companion at a time, or at least that they are going to be different mechanically, if there's two again.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ormag

[ComradeYellow]

1 minute ago, Ormag said:

Probably just means that you are going to have only one companion at a time, or at least that they are going to be different mechanically if there's two again.

Yes people really need to stop engaging in Wishful Thinking.  Everything I read on that list sounds awesome but I certainly didn't get a "party based" impression from it.

[Wormerine]

2 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

Like picking too much Red and not enough Green or Blue will make your character big and strong but really dumb and poorly resourceful if things get ugly etc.  Each color gives subtle augments your character.

You over complicate things. Picking colour should only determine what ending you get - red explosion, green explosion or blue explosion. Otherwise casuals will get confused. 
 

EDIT. Giving colours to UI is not system... it’s UI. Assigning colours to attributes in Deadfire via Enhanced Interface Mod didn’t change how the system actually works.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Wormerine

[ComradeYellow]

Yeah it's not something I feel REAL strongly about or anything I just liked how Witcher 3 did leveling.  I'm confident that Avowed will have a solid Char system.  In fact, I've never been more sure that I'll be satisfied.  TOW exceeded my expectations so I'm a bit high on Obsidian right now.

Also nice Mass Effect reference!

[Wormerine]

2 hours ago, Ormag said:

No?

"- you’ll be able to have companions (different than Outer Worlds)"

Probably just means that you are going to have only one companion at a time, or at least that they are going to be different mechanically, if there's two again.

I agree. 

that said I think Dragon Dogma was a party RPG, while being an action RPG, no? (Never played it, just from what I can understand).

However, if indeed party dynamic was a bigger focus in Av I would be surprised that they wouldn’t hint at it in the teaser, which has very solitary feel. 

“Different than Outer Worlds” might go the other way as well - That they role might be different then adventuring alongside us. 
or maybe that just means that we won’t meet Parvati or SAM in Avowed... which goes without saying. 

[Wormerine]

28 minutes ago, ComradeMaster said:

Yeah it's not something I feel REAL strongly about or anything I just liked how Witcher 3 did leveling.  I'm confident that Avowed will have a solid Char system.  In fact, I've never been more sure that I'll be satisfied.  TOW exceeded my expectations so I'm a bit high on Obsidian right now.

On a less sarcastic note, how many attributes (or colours!) Avowed should have depends on who much depth there will be to the combat system. Personally, W3 was so shallow it might have been better if systems were removed entirely - though my issue lies less with minor customisation content, but with how trivial combat quickly becomes thanks to overload of XP - it took expansions to get the combat balance right again (PoE syndrome). Which is shame, as I thought W3 combat system was probably better then most moder mainstream action titles (aka Ass Creed or Batmanz).

To me, Dark Souls is a gold standard in design of action RPG systems - with allowing a number of different builds while still being fully imput driven. In games like W3, Skyrim or tOW I think one could cut character development system and not really loose that much if anything when it comes to combat. 

[ComradeYellow]

4 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

Personally, W3 was so shallow it might have been better if systems were removed entirely

I think you're mistaking W3 with Bethesda games, W3's leveling and mutagen system is actually surprisingly well done.  It's Bethesda games with the shallow godawful mechanics that they're better off just making 1st person Zelda-type games that focus more on object and scenic value than numerical value.

Dark Souls has a solid stat system but that's the meat of the game, there's little to no outside of combat meaning to them.  Works well for what it is but all-in-all very combat focused.

[Wormerine]

2 hours ago, ComradeMaster said:

I think you're mistaking W3 with Bethesda games,

Dark Souls has a solid stat system but that's the meat of the game, there's little to no outside of combat meaning to them.  Works well for what it is but all-in-all very combat focused.

I don't. I never managed to play enough of a Bethesda game to really form an opinion (actually, I did play Fallout3 for a decent time, but F:NV completely overwritten whatever I might have remembered about it). I am not sure if I consider W3 an action RPG even. Gothic is an action RPG. Dark Souls is an action RPG. Witcher3... I don't know, it's close to being just action game with RPG elements. Or maybe it simply because I found W3 leveling system superficial. To be honest I can't recall much of Witcher3 system, except for having limited slots into which one could inserts passive buffs, and unlock extra abilities (like blocking arrows or new ways of applying signs). Drop numerical power creep, and we essencially have open world action game combat system. W3 is an odd one, as we play as Geralt, and there is only that much Geralt can do in-lore. I hope we will get a bit more freedom in Avowed, even if we get softlock into character class. 

I agree that level of DS depth is most likely out of reach, and possible not a good idea as player's attention will be split. I mentioned DS from a "big picture" perspective anyway - how different builds effect imputs players have at their disposal, rather then flat action combat experience with some damage bonuses. I am talking about combining an cRPG concept of "builds" with action gameplay, not individual mechanics (stamina, invincibility roll, poise etc.) nor difficulty. 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Wormerine

[the_dog_days]

5 hours ago, Ormag said:

- you’ll be able to have companions (different than Outer Worlds)"

Well, they say 'companions' not 'followers' and that they're not like the Outer Worlds. I assume they mean Companions and not bots.

[Ormag]

Witcher 3's problem was levels, they were mostly just meaningless numbers, and you ended up in dumb situations where you fought bandits with sticks who were 20 levels above you. A levelless system where you could directly "spend" experience points to upgrade your abilities and skills would have benefited the game greatly

 

[ZyroMane]

7 hours ago, Wormerine said:

that said I think Dragon Dogma was a party RPG, while being an action RPG, no?

Indeed it is. Can go solo, but only if you suicide your pawn. Pawns are the computer controlled party members, which is tied into the narrative. You create your own pawn early in the game, but can also take two other pawns (from other users or pregen ones) to adventure with you. And, just like how you can change your class (vocation in game) in the big city, you can change your own pawn's class. Only the arisen (main character) can be hybrid classes however. It also lets you play as a hobbit-sized character.

An example of a party-based first-person rpg, which is neither a blobber nor Outer Worlds, is Brigand: Oaxaca. Its party system is more like KotOR, but it's oft described as a cross between Dues Ex and Morrowind.

 

Dang, now I want to climb on oversized monsters in a first-person action rpg.