Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, Powerotti said:

So it needs to be:

- comparable to other pl9 spells, but not op

- unique and different to other summoned weapons

- useful, but not must have

- fun to use

Agreed

6 hours ago, Powerotti said:

I'm thinking about something inspired by omnipotence paradox - "immovable object" for breastplate and "irresistible force" for weapons.

That's good naming for everything that Citzal stands for. I'm changing the weapon mod name to these ones. Whatever I keep in the end, that's perfect names  

6 hours ago, Powerotti said:

 

But if it's fantasy world, it should work mostly for magic aspects. Breastplate have barier, that blocks all spells (from both sides, that's why one can't cast) and weapon attacks can't be resisted, so:

- immovable object - can't cast spells, and gives 100% spell resist (or immunity to all afflictions, or reduction to negative effects)

Can't cast spell would make it impossible to cast with Citzal's Martial power. I doubt Citzal would have designed mutual exclusive spells.
There is also another Tier 9 wizard spells vs spells. Protection vs spell is situational (Mage Slayer knows it) and I think it is better to have a dedicated spell for it.
For both reasons, I feel it is a bit redundant.

6 hours ago, Powerotti said:

- irresistible force - reduce positive effects on target (like street sweeper) and prolong positive on user (like wall of draining) on hit.

OK, this is doable but it is a bit redundant with Wall of Draining then.
There is also another Tier 9 Wiz spells for dispell.
And for extending duration... well I'm reluctant since we all know how degenerate it could become. Also extending your own incapacity to cast spells feel somewhat wrong.

That said, I see plenty of people giving new ideas, that's nice, but I hadn't much feedback about my 100% Miss to Graze and 100% Crit to Hit.
Don't get me wrong I don't claim it is perfect but I sincerely don't see why it could not be fitting and it is pretty unique IMHO as well as coded and working .

I'm also thinking about rising a bit duration (25s->35s) since Tier 9 can harly benefit from much added PL.

 

Version 1.4 as a whole is coded, tested and working. I'm just waiting a bit in case I have afterthoughts.

[Powerotti]

33 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Also extending your own incapacity to cast spells feel somewhat wrong.

That was the point to limit overuse complete spell resistance (arcane dampener/cleanse) and brilliant extending, but i just realize how op it would be with blade cascade and potion of the last stand

[thelee]

9 hours ago, Powerotti said:

- immovable object - can't cast spells, and gives 100% spell resist (or immunity to all afflictions, or reduction to negative effects)

- irresistible force - reduce positive effects on target (like street sweeper) and prolong positive on user (like wall of draining) on hit.

for inspiration purposes, there's already an in-game analogue for this, via galawain's challenge.

unstoppable - can't be interrupted, can't be affected by afflictions

bullish - knock back and interrupt on hit

 

i wonder if just having both on you as part of citzal's would be ok? 

[Elric Galad]

OK, so Version 1.4 Notes (changes in green are in the nerf package) :


1) Added Keyworks :

Lightning Strikes :
Added Electricity KW

Dichotomous Soul :
Added Fire and Ice KW

Zandethus Draconic Fury :
Added Fire KW


2) Empower Passive :

The general idea is to promote the use of Empower by adding to Empower Passive a lasting bonus after Empower has been used. This bonus is stronger that what a passive usually offer, but this is counterbalanced by the need to time your Empower and is not compatible with ressource refill.

1 - Accurate Empower : +10 Accuracy to Empowered Spell, +5 Accuracy for rest of battle
2 - Potent Empower : +30% damages to Empowered Spell, +15% damages for rest of battle (tried "Healing Done too, but was bugged)
3 - "Fast" Empower* : Instant Recovery to Empowered Spell, +15% Action speed for rest of battle
4 - Penetrating Empower : + 2 PEN to Empowered Spell, +1 PEN for rest of battle

* to replace the bugged Lasting Empower.

Weyc's Wand : 
Instant Recovery of Empowered ability -> +15% action speed for 20s after using an Empower ability (to avoid redundancy with Fast Empower)

Chopping Wood : 100% Hit to Crit for Empowered ability, 20% Hit to Crit for rest of battle
Murderous Intent : (100% Hit to Crit /+100% Crit damages) against foes under 50% health for Empowered ability, (20% Hit to Crit /+20% Crit damages) against foes under 50% health for rest of battle

Great Soul :
Currently a worthless talent for any individual battle.
Therefore I wanted to seize the opportunity to give Single Class a bit more ressources, especially Chantesr (since Chants don't even scale with PL, I think Single Class Chanter feels less optimal than multiclass one). So in addition to +1 Empower, it now provides :
- Martials : + 1 ressource
- Chanter : -15% phrase duration (~+17% chanting speed)
- Cipher : +3 focus / 6s (I wanted some straight +20 focus at start of combat, but it wasn't technically possible) 
- Casters : +1 Tier 1 and +1 Tier 2 spells. (not meant to be powerful, convenient at most)


3) Summoned Weapons  and Spiritshift :

I'm paying special attention to Summoned Weapons and Spiritshift because they replace actual weapons/armors. So if they are not as good as endgame equipment, they won't be used. All of them need either good stats or a niche.

Llengrath's Warding Staff :
Added +12 Deflection since the description advertise for a Deflection bonus.

Citzal's Enchanted Armory :
Quality set to Mythic
Duration : 25s - > 35s
Added 100% Miss to Graze to Weapons
Added 100% Crit to Hit to Armor

Spiritual Weapons :
Removed the casting time bonus from Community Patch (the Martial Casting talent buff covers it)
Added +10 Accuracy to all gods weapons except Woedica's.

Spiritshift duration:
Duration scale with PL (I had to set Boar Wounding DoT to a fixed 9s to avoid its scaling too).

Spiritshift Stag :
+7 all defenses - > +10 all defenses
Carnage (as implemented by Community Patch) adjusted to base 33% weapon damages.

Spiritshift Wolf:
+25% Stride - > +50% Stride
1 Knockdown - > 3 Knockdowns

Wildstrike :
Now also provides +1 PL to corresponding "element" when shifted (Fire, Electricity, Acid/Decay, Ice/Water)
Greater Widstrike :
Now also provides +2 PL to corresponding "element" when shifted (Fire, Electricity, Acid/Decay, Ice/Water)
Note this is intended to make Shifter malus more significant.

4) Miscellanous :

One Handed Style :
Also add 20% Miss to Graze and 20% Graze to Hit

Pistol Modal :
-50% Recovery - > -40% Recovery

Hunter Bow Modal :
-50% Recovery - > -40% Recovery

Spell Resistance Ability :
10% Resistance - > 15%

Inspired Defense :
+1AR for 3s - > 5s

Strengthened Bond :
+15 All defenses vs AoE - > +17 All defenses

Greater Focus :
+10 Max Focus - > +2 Max Focus per level (was +1 per level in previous version, but since it only provides 25% Ma Focus at the start of battle, I felt it wasn't enough)

Keen Mind :
+10 Focus on Start of Battle - > +1 Focus per level (was +1.5 in previous version but I realized it provides much more starting focus than Greater Focus so I decided to lower it a bit.

Soul Blade on Kill effect :
+10 Max focus for 30s - > +5 +1/lvl (was completely unsignificant at high level. Still not very strong but at least visible) 

Echoing Horror :
Add a +1 Accuracy scaling bonus for PL beyond 7 (rather unsignificant but aligned with similar passive abilities for sake of ruleset consistency)

Fractured Volition :
Corrected a bug that caused Enfeebled Affliction to last indefinitely.

Added Missing item "Torc of the Falcon Eye" (headgear, +2PER) at Una's Shop

Stun :
Cyclopedia updated according to Community Patch (Cyclopedia said it was -10 all defenses but it was wrong : it is -10 Deflection and another -10 Reflex with CP)
 

@Sergeant Arch Dornan привет !

Edited November 14, 2020 by Elric Galad

[thelee]

15 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

especially Chantesr (since Chants don't even scale with PL, I think Single Class Chanter feels less optimal than multiclass one)

huh? did you previously change something? the chants should scale with PL. i feel like it was even you who pointed this out to me

[Elric Galad]

8 hours ago, thelee said:

huh? did you previously change something? the chants should scale with PL. i feel like it was even you who pointed this out to me

Damages and healing chant do scale. But that's 3 chants out if many. Linger duration for exemple does not scale. And they scale with pseudo PL as Monastic Unarmed Training, so SC chanters don't even get an advantage (tried to change this but didn't work).

[AndreaColombo]

In Aloth's armor, the Elementally Stable and Known Causality enchantments do not appear to be mutually exclusive. Is this something that can be fixed via scripting?

[Elric Galad]

6 minutes ago, AndreaColombo said:

In Aloth's armor, the Elementally Stable and Known Causality enchantments do not appear to be mutually exclusive. Is this something that can be fixed via scripting?

I suppose so. @coralzombie is the expert on this topic.
But why would it require "fixing" ? Not all enchantments have to be mutually exclusive.

[AndreaColombo]

They are graphically presented as alternative enchantment paths and the last two enchantments of each path are mutually exclusive; it stands to reason that their prerequisite enchantments would also be exclusive.

[Ophiuchus]

Thanks for rejuvenating my addiction to interest in Deadfire, Elric. I especially dig those Barbarian changes, and I'm grateful you brought Mage Slayer from meme status to legitimate option.

Just scanning through the thread here and there so two thoughts:

1) When adding those +ACC bonuses to Spiritual Weapons, would you consider changing Magran's version to dual Swords or dual Pistols? The current implementation is clunky.

2) With keywords, would you consider adding Elements, Frost, and/or Storm to Spirit Tornado?

Edited November 16, 2020 by Ophiuchus

[Elric Galad]

1 hour ago, Ophiuchus said:

1) When adding those +ACC bonuses to Spiritual Weapons, would you consider changing Magran's version to dual Swords or dual Pistols? The current implementation is clunky.

Well, Pistol & Sword is a legit setup. Some people like it, so changing it would not be a "balance change".
It's easy to mod yourself I think

1 hour ago, Ophiuchus said:

2) With keywords, would you consider adding Elements, Frost, and/or Storm to Spirit Tornado?

Storm or Elements are more a Druid stuff. But Ice KW would be okay. I'll add it for next release (which might not be too soon  )

[saltynoodles]

Really liking the Paladin Healing Chain tweak.

A suggestion for Llengrath's Warding Staff: increase PushDistance from 2.5 to something higher. I made it 10.0 in my game. Keeps the spirit of the original weapon but makes it more tactically useful and a blast to use. Perhaps nerf the damage or deflection bonus if necessary for balance.

[Elric Galad]

4 hours ago, saltynoodles said:

Really liking the Paladin Healing Chain tweak.

A suggestion for Llengrath's Warding Staff: increase PushDistance from 2.5 to something higher. I made it 10.0 in my game. Keeps the spirit of the original weapon but makes it more tactically useful and a blast to use. Perhaps nerf the damage or deflection bonus if necessary for balance.

It sounds fun but I usually don't like changing too much the purpose of abilities that are already "functional"

There is only a couple of abilities for which I changed the purpose. For example Strike the Bell and Healing Chain. When I did it, it was because the ability felt redundant. SC Paladin already had an AoE heal. I'm very happy that you like this new healing chain because I scratched my head a lot in order to design something that felt unique !

Edited November 20, 2020 by Elric Galad

[NotDumbEnough]

Been playing with the newest version of the mod.

 

Something that I want to bring to your attention is that your "fix" for Shadowing Beyond and its upgrade isn't really justified. Your Nexus mod page says that the deflection bonus used to vanish after a single attack, which is precisely what it is supposed to do.

 

Quote

The rogue travels through the Beyond, appearing at a specific location and expertly avoiding the next attack. Afterwards the rogue is temporarily invisible.

The words "next attack" being the emphasis here.

 

Otherwise, I mostly enjoy the mod. The only other thing I dislike is the Brilliance change -- it makes martial classes (who have strong starting and passive abilities that don't require any resources to take advantage of) that were already good at extended fights even better at them in comparison, while caster classes (which are kind of useless after they run out of spells) even worse at them. For wizards it's a bit more acceptable since spells like Slicken, Miasma of Dull Mindedness, etc. are extremely strong, but for priests and druids their stronger spells are usually at tier 4 or above. I'd mostly prefer an approach similar to Blood Sacrifice, where each tick of Brilliance only restores spell casts up to a certain ability level dependent on RNG. You'd get mostly lower level spells, but getting a high level spell back isn't impossible either.

 

I also have my doubts with Salvation of Time + Chanter chants since it theoretically lets a single chanter maintain uptime for up to 4 chants which is quite strong. Though to be honest I haven't really put this to the test yet.

 

Again, I mostly enjoy the mod. It makes a lot of things actually viable to use, and I appreciate single-class martial abilities not having absurdly high resource costs.

[Elric Galad]

  

10 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Been playing with the newest version of the mod.

Always nice to hear  

10 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Something that I want to bring to your attention is that your "fix" for Shadowing Beyond and its upgrade isn't really justified. Your Nexus mod page says that the deflection bonus used to vanish after a single attack, which is precisely what it is supposed to do.

 

The words "next attack" being the emphasis here.

I probably poorly explained my motivation on the mod change list.
It is more detailed here :
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/109535-mechanics-various-testing/?tab=comments#comment-2200814

Basically my motivations to change the ability were :

- the behaviour wasn't consistent. I suspect even a mere lash (including the one from deep wounds) caused the def buff to be cancelled by the 1st attack.

- the deflection buff often only worked when you were invisible (which is pointless)

I went with a very straightfoward change rather than trying to code a secondary effect that only activate when invisbility break because such coding leads to many bugs in my experience.
Also it makes Shadowing Beyond & Upgrade more worthy of 2 guiles cost.

I changed a bit the mod description though, because my motivations weren't clear at all.
 

10 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Otherwise, I mostly enjoy the mod. The only other thing I dislike is the Brilliance change -- it makes martial classes (who have strong starting and passive abilities that don't require any resources to take advantage of) that were already good at extended fights even better at them in comparison, while caster classes (which are kind of useless after they run out of spells) even worse at them. For wizards it's a bit more acceptable since spells like Slicken, Miasma of Dull Mindedness, etc. are extremely strong, but for priests and druids their stronger spells are usually at tier 4 or above. I'd mostly prefer an approach similar to Blood Sacrifice, where each tick of Brilliance only restores spell casts up to a certain ability level dependent on RNG. You'd get mostly lower level spells, but getting a high level spell back isn't impossible either.

Fore sure, that was my initial plan but it wasn't technically possible without a lots of side effect. To make it short, an "attack" can have a random component, but a status cannot.

So yes this is a nerf in the middle of many buff. I don't think casters would get something significantly less valuable than martials (the later can use their ressources in a more versatile way
It also has 2 interesting (IMHO) consequences for party/character build :
- It makes Single Class Chanter the only class able to regenerate high tier spells. Casters still benefit much from "His Heart Did Fill with the Light of the Dawn", which makes SC Chanters more unique.
- It makes Tier 1-3 spell picks more strategic. For example, a non-ancient druid should pick Minor Blight summon if the party include a Cipher cause it is the only renewable summon. Divine Mark could be picked for boss fight which also happens to be the longest fights.

10 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I also have my doubts with Salvation of Time + Chanter chants since it theoretically lets a single chanter maintain uptime for up to 4 chants which is quite strong. Though to be honest I haven't really put this to the test yet.

Yep, but still work only for a given time period. SoT has that much of a long duration. This also lead Chanter to select 4 different "non situationnal" Chanting abilities, which you can usually skip. So there's also an investisment cost. Overall, I don't think it is specifically overpowered. It is certainly not the most broken thing you can do with the "new" SoT.

10 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Again, I mostly enjoy the mod. It makes a lot of things actually viable to use, and I appreciate single-class martial abilities not having absurdly high resource costs.

Nice to hear it !

[Sergeant Arch Dornan]

On 11/14/2020 at 11:13 AM, Elric Galad said:

@Sergeant Arch Dornan привет !

Привет. 

 

I was inactive big amount of time because of overtime work. I will make changes to translation when I return to home. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Sergeant Arch Dornan

[Elric Galad]

35 minutes ago, Sergeant Arch Dornan said:

Привет. 

 

I was inactive big amount of time because of overtime work. I will make changes to translation when I return to home. 

There is no hurry. Your translation still cover 95% of the mod content. I just wanted to keep you informed.

[NotDumbEnough]

Some minor feedback.

 

I understand the changes to Finishing Blow & upgrades were to incentivize actually using it rather than just spamming Crippling Strike which was cheaper and often did more damage anyways. However I feel the buffed ability feels a bit overtuned on enemy units which never had to worry about resource costs in the first place and just start spamming the skill whenever anyone reaches Bloodied.

 

At level 14, upscaled PotD, enemy rogues are hitting for upwards of 90 damage with these skills (with a hunting bow). At this point, tankier characters like Pallegina or Eder have something like 240 max hp. i.e. generic enemies start hitting harder than most bosses with the buffed ability.

[Elric Galad]

6 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Some minor feedback.

 

I understand the changes to Finishing Blow & upgrades were to incentivize actually using it rather than just spamming Crippling Strike which was cheaper and often did more damage anyways. However I feel the buffed ability feels a bit overtuned on enemy units which never had to worry about resource costs in the first place and just start spamming the skill whenever anyone reaches Bloodied.

 

At level 14, upscaled PotD, enemy rogues are hitting for upwards of 90 damage with these skills (with a hunting bow). At this point, tankier characters like Pallegina or Eder have something like 240 max hp. i.e. generic enemies start hitting harder than most bosses with the buffed ability.

I personnally found this more challenging, but I would keep it in mind in case I get several feedbacks in the same direction.
Granted that early and midgame in PotD is considered as the most challenging parts of the game... 

[Sergeant Arch Dornan]

Russian translation was updated. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Sergeant Arch Dornan

[NotDumbEnough]

Corpse Eater is a bit of a meme right now, imo.

 

It's very very easy to stack ludicrous amounts of +PL for Dragon Leap and Instrument of Boundless Rage.

For Dragon Leap you have:

+4 PL Level Scaling

+1 PL Prestige

+1 PL Otto Starcat

+1 PL Nature Godlike

+2 PL Magran's Favor

+2 PL Sun and Moon

+5 PL Forbidden Flesh Pie.

That's +16 PL!!!

With 20 Intellect you get a stun duration of 6 * 1.5 * 1.8 = 16.2 seconds, on an ability that costs 3 Rage. Literally just jump up and down till the enemy dies. For more memes put on a Ring of Focused Flame, and choose a different race to put on Helm of the White Void, for +20 Accuracy.

Similarly for IoBR you get +12 PL and with high Might you can hit upwards of 200 damage on the main target and 80 damage on nearby targets.

[Boeroer]

But besides the Forbidden Flesh Pie which is supposed to balences out the otherwise rel. weak subclass and has to compete with other good food (like +2 PEN food) all those PL buffs are accessible to any class with a fire ability. Try Meteor Swarm with the setup you wrote down and an Evoker with Firethrower Gloves or a Druid with Great Maelstrom. Instrument of Boundless Rage, even if maxed out by modded Flesh Pie, is kind of weak compared to that. 

[NotDumbEnough]

You can't just compare it to a skill like Meteor Shower, which has a long cast time, very short range, and severe potential for friendly fire. Yes you can melt bosses with it in seconds, but it's so clunky that using it anywhere else will probably lead to dealing massive damage to your own team. Leap and IoBR are both team friendly and spammable, in addition to being on a class that generally has competent autoattacks even if resources run out.

[Ivanfyodorovich]

It does seem a little overtuned to me, and it feels off when the strongest choice for a melee martial class is to spam a mobility ability to deal the best damage. That said, AT9 shouts have always been very high damage dealing, arguable higher than Heart of Fury, certainly in terms of resource cost ratio. 

Dragon Leap

• Community Patch added "Fire" keyword to Dragon Leap. (opened up +5 PL w/ items) - This feels like a bug fix in terms of designer intent, so much so that the Community Patch changed it. These abilities deal fire DMG so they should scale w/ + Fire PL. I would rather tune the ability around the keywords for the sake of design consistency. In terms of how powerful the ability becomes when using those items, it also has the opportunity cost of not using those items on another character with similar DMG potential. Essentially, you have to choose where to add +5 PL, with many great options. It should be considered when tuning, but I don't think it actually matters as much as the Barbarian specific changes. 
• Balance Polishing Mod adjusted PL to scale from Leap (+3 PL base) - This seems more like a bug fix. These abilities have the same resource cost as regular leap and there is no situation where you wouldn't use the upgraded ability (except may the edge case where the fire DMG might heal an enemy). The ability should be tuned around this change, since it's a base feature now. 
• Balance Polishing Mod increased Daze effect to Stun. - This one is probably one step too far. Hard CC in an AoE is very strong, and even with Vanilla PL scaling would be too much for 2 Rage. If the ability feels too weak for an AT8 ability point w/ just adding fire DMG, perhaps there's another option like extending the duration of the Daze effect, adding an additional debuff (-PEN that doesn't stack but get's around MIG resistance, 2 sec Stun + Daze for 6 sec, etc.), or making the DMG dual type (fire/crush). 

Instruments of Boundless Rage

• Balance Polishing Mod added "Fire" keyword (opened up +5 PL w/ items) - Same as above, I don't think this is really an issue given the opportunity cost, and even less for a AT9 ability. This really should compete with similar abilities at this tier, and fire PL scaling isn't OP. 
• Balance Polishing Mod reduced rage cost from 3 to 2. - @Elric Galadhas written a lot about his philosophy behind martial ability costs at higher tiers. I think it's probably fine either way. There's so much competing with it at AT9 for a Barbarian, and I don't think a 2 resource super fireball is too much. 

Corpse Eater

• Food Upgrades - These could be tweaked. +2PL (universal) is the base that anyone can get from Potion of Ascension (which lasts the whole battle regardless of Alchemy), so making an alternate +2PL (Barbarian only) is not strong enough. There has to be some benefit to balance the resource cost increase in addition to the very situational Flesh Communion. Maybe tune it down to +3PL (barbarian) across all of the foods and improve the other benefits, or make it +3PL universal to open up more interesting multi-class options.  As it stands, Corpse Eater is really only worth it as a single class choice (though very strong at endgame). 

All of that to say, I think you could retune Dragon Leap pretty well by reducing the base DMG a little and replacing 6 sec Stun w/ a less powerful effect. IoBR feels fine as is for an AT9 ability, maybe reduce the fire DMG slightly to adjust for better keyword scaling. Corpse Eater food could be changed to +2/+3 universal PL w/ same secondary effects, or +3/+4 PL (barbarian only) w/ better secondary effects. 

Thoughts?

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Ivanfyodorovich
clarity

[Elric Galad]

I don't know.

Dragon leap does not work vs Fire Immune and is meh vs Might resistant. Building your whole playthrough on it is risky.

Corpse Eater has a lot of downsides such as not being able to spam Driving Roar or insta-CC Spirit Tornado. And Leap is 3 rages for him. The fact that an endgame Single Class Barb build specifically geared for it can be so strong with it does not feel wrong to me.