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To clarify a bit my design choices for KW : in most cases I added it as frequently as possible, because :

 

 - It makes the ability more clear. This is especially true for the many Poison / Disease abilities that did nothing Vs Poison Immune (because poison Status affected the whole attack).

 

 

- It granted PL bonus from items by adding KW to ability. I don't think there are a lots of case where it could have been applied to the attack only to avoid weird interactions with Immunity mechanics.

Spirit Tornado would have been annoying so you did well.

IoBR is questionable since adding the KW to ability makes fire Immune resist the initial attack. But adding KW to ability is necessary to get the bonus from PL. And the ability would still be suboptimal Vs Fire Immune anyway. So I think leaving KW is better.

 

- I don't mind too much having a couple of foes immune to the new keyword. It supports using different abilities vs different foes. That's why adding Acid KW is good in general.

The questionable choices would be adding Fire / Frost / Poison / Disease KW to OFFENSIVE abilities since they are the most commonly resisted. However :

• I don't remember adding Frost KW to an offensive ability.

• I think all Poison / Disease KW added were already fully resisted.

• For fire spell, I only remember about IoBR which is discussed above.

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I'd mostly agreed. Though, in some cases adding a KW's it's a matter of personal preferences (and i'm fine with that).

I wanted to bring attention to be careful with KW's, because in some cases it leads to undesired negative (countering and immunities issues) and positive (OP +PL bonus stacks) effects. A lot of abilities have 2 or more attacks and/or status effects with different damage types (or damage + debuffs), so keywording ability (especially with elemental keywords) may cause issues with immunities or undesired effect countering. So i try to look closely on each ability to see most possible problems.

Anyway, if my theory is right, i'll tweak all +PL effects, so individual attacks will gain +PL bonuses from all sources, and we can be more free and specific in adding keywords – if adding a KW to ability can cause troubles, we can add to attack and it will work.

I hope, my words sounds clear (it's been a while when i use english last time).

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On 2/19/2021 at 10:48 AM, Elric Galad said:

Maybe you'll find that my value is still a bit too low.

I do a bit. But would prefer to find time and compare the dps/benefits first.

 

On 2/19/2021 at 10:48 AM, Elric Galad said:

But I really thing that bashing shield should not have a DPS comparable to normal 1-hander.

Yeah, the dps of bashing shield should be lower than of normal 1-hander, since it gives extra deflection and reflex)

I think it should be like that: 1h+shield < 1h + bashing_shield < 1h+1h.

 

And one more thing: what do you think if The Best Defense had 0.5 + 3.0 attack/recovery time?

 

On 2/19/2021 at 8:59 PM, Boeroer said:

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Spoiler

27c126cc364c3bb33ed4da077f18c8b1.gif

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First association: something something about Blackwood and Durance's staff collection 😄

  

22 hours ago, Boeroer said:

By the way Josh currently looks like this:

The no-shave quarantine :)

Half of my colleagues (including me) are now with beard or stubble)

Edited by MaxQuest
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Also a lot of abilities doesn't have a specific keywords, but connected attacks does - this is the cases, when game designers wanted to make an attacks work with immunities and counters, and avoid possible problems with all ability's effects.

Edited by Phenomenum
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A feature request: would it be possible to change the penetration values of various raw damage abilities? A lot of them seem to have 0 pen and do not seem to work too well with lashes (e.g. casting Silent Scream while affected by Shared Flames).

Edited by NotDumbEnough
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10 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

would it be possible to change the penetration values of various raw damage abilities? A lot of them seem to have 0 pen

Raw damage don't use Penetration stat - it always deals listed damage number to target. That's why you see 0's.

Edited by Phenomenum
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Yes, but the point was this: if there's a lash attached (see Eternal Devotion, Deltro's Cage Helmet, Shasha's Singing Scimitar's Champion's Prelude etc.) then this lash uses the PEN of the ability it's attached to. In this case it's 0. But the lash itself is not raw dmg. So it will always underpenetrate. 

 

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8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Eternal Devotion, Deltro's Cage Helmet, Shasha's Singing Scimitar's

But these lashes are not raw. 🤔

Eternal Devotion, for example, have no dedicated attack and uses equiped weapon's Pen. Second: all lashes were maded via status-effects (BonusDamageProc type), which doesn't nave Penetration stat at all, so i hardly imagine what we can do.

8 hours ago, Boeroer said:

In this case it's 0.

In which case? Name, sister!

Edited by Phenomenum
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Dude... 🤣

Again: Eternal Devotion gives you a burning lash for everything for some time. That means you'll have a lash on all attacks you will do during that time. That includes spells. 

---

Scenario:

Paladin/Cipher Klaus uses Eternal Devotion with his arquebus. It does some damage and gives him a 10% burning lash for the next 30 seconds. This lash will work with everything that does damage. 

Now Klaus decided to cast Silent Scream. It has 0 PEN. He hits a Rotghast (named Steve) who has the whimpy burn AR of 4. Silent Scream doesn't care because it's raw, but the attached burning lash will severely underpenetrate because it inherits 0 PEN, too. 

Peter the Chanter/Cipher noticed the same when he wanted to cast Silent Scream with a shocking lash from Champion's Prelude (Sasha's Singing Scimitar).

---

So: of course it seems to make sense that raw dmg abilities have 0 PEN because they don't need any PEN. BUT as soon as you attach a lash to them that lash will inherit the PEN of the ability. If that's 0 it makes the lash nearly useless because it will nearly always severely underpenetrate and suffer the -75% dmg malus.

I hope I could penetrate the brick wall with this devoted post. 😋

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I don't see a mchanical problem with that - but that doesn't mean it's not there, lurking in the shadows. ;)

Would it allow raw damage abilites to overpenetrate then (for example on crit)? I don't think so but I haven't looked at the implementation of raw dmg attacks and how they handle AR (or if they do handle it at all). 

So far the only "problem" I see that this may cause: it might be confusing to players who see a PEN value on raw dmg ability and think "Wait - why is there a PEN value if it bypasses AR anyway?"

Is it possible to give a PEN value (like 6 or 7) and hide it from the ability description?

Edited by Boeroer

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1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

Would it allow raw damage abilites to overpenetrate then (for example on crit)? I don't think so but I haven't looked at the implementation of raw dmg attacks and how they handle AR (or if they do handle it at all). 

Silent scream AoE has 9 Pen, I've tried to make it overpen low-armor enemies but it didn't work.

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3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Would it allow raw damage abilites to overpenetrate then (for example on crit)?

In theory, u can hit enemy with Raw dmg and then Overpen with lash - but only in theory. Even without Overpen, overall damage output of some classes will be a little higher (but not too much, and i don't think it will be crucial to win some fights).

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

it might be confusing to players who see a PEN value on raw dmg ability and think "Wait - why is there a PEN value if it bypasses AR anyway?"

Most of lashes (if not all) connected to attack as status-effects, so u can see Pen value only in detailed log with Shift key. I don't see a big problem.

P.S. You know what's funny? Every time, when we gathering feedback (i did it in february-march 2020) and closing all possible gaps - and thinking we finally closed all - something new is coming. 😂

Edited by Phenomenum
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20 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

P.S. You know what's funny? Every time, when we gathering feedback (i did it in february-march 2020) and closing all possible gaps - and thinking we finally closed all - something new is coming. 😂

That's the Deadfire curse. ;)

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Other changes I'm thinking about :

 

Cipher Backlash (and brutal one) : what about making it 25% chance on Will attacks rather than once per encounter ?

 

Illusionist : the unique ability is basically 1 extra cast of tier 2 spell. What about making it 10% chance on being Hit or Crit ? (Not Graze or it would be too easy to keep mirror image 100% of the time). This would be less reliable but much more handy for long fights (and a bit more unique).

 

Enchanter : after dealing with Conjurer and Transmuter, this one strikes me as the subclass with the less purpose (which is even worse than simply being weak). Many of their high level abilities are very situational. Their spells also don't benefit much from +2PL. I think they would have needed an unique ability to be the corner stone of the subclass. Granted their current one is convenient but not much more. 

I have no precise plan for this one, so any suggestion would be welcomed.

 

@MaxQuest I don't have an opinion about reducing Best Defence attack speed. Maybe it would fit fluff wise as a small shield. What matters is overall DPS 🙂 so I'm waiting for your own analysis !

Edited by Elric Galad
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9 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

We can add some base Pen (6-7) to Raw dmg attacks, i think. I’m curious what @MaxQuest think about it.

I think this is definitely worth it. Because it is weird that a lash from regular attack can penetrate, while lash from an attack that penetrates everything doesn't.

And regarding Pen value, I think it should compare with high-pen spells. So around 8 or 9.

 

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

Other changes I'm thinking about :

Cipher Backlash (and brutal one) : what about making it 25% chance on Will attacks rather than once per encounter?

My opinion on Brutal Backlash is that it is not worth a talent point at all.

And regarding unupgraded Backlash that it is a bit weird:

  • it's good in fast fights (but then you could win without it)
  • and worthless in long fights

At the same time I actually like that it triggers immediately; otherwise there will be even more fights when it won't be triggering at all.

---

Also I remember when in PoE1 Backlash was set to trigger with no limit, I could keep enemies with terrifying/frightening/fear auras (including some dragons) perma-stunned with just 2 ciphers.

Thus need to think more about it.

4 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

 

@MaxQuest I don't have an opinion about reducing Best Defence attack speed. Maybe it would fit fluff wise as a small shield. What matters is overall DPS 🙂 so I'm waiting for your own analysis !

I like having a quick weapon in offhand for full attacks. With the possible exceptions of Heart of Fury, Barbaric Blow, Whirling Strikes.

But then again, a character that specializes on rare but heavy hitting full attacks won't be tacking a low-damage bashing shield.

If The Best Defense had 0.5 + 3.0 speed I see good synergy for a Kind Wayfarer FoD spamming healbot.

But need to compare [Magran's Favor + Sun&Moon] vs [Magran's Favor + Keeper of the Flame] vs [Magran's Favor + quicker The Best Defense].

 

3 hours ago, Phenomenum said:

Hell, guys! Make a sheet with DPS 10 seconds range for each attack  type and compare! 🤭

Ideally we would need to compare auto-attack dps, full-attack spamming dps. Think about using bashing shield with a ranged weapon. And for primary attack spam.

Hmm. If will find the time, will do. Otherwise will go with gut feeling :)

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Backlash could also be coded in a similar fashion to Tekehu defense vs Fire spell : 100% chance, but has to refresh with a delay (~30s ?).

Both Backlash & Brutal Backlash are situational talents. Spending 2 points for something situational is the major problem with brutal backlash, even with a better damage value. But with a good value, it would at least be useful in the right situation, Ney ?

If not, what could be your suggestion ?

 

For Enchanter I wonder about giving them permanent Dex Aff Immunity... or maybe a +15/+25% beneficial effect duration ?

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What about Psychic Backlash causing only Staggered instead of Stun - but unlimited times per encounter? I mean we have stuff like Spirit Frenzy staggering everything left and right, even with Chanter phrases...

Brutal Backlash could put a (small) raw DoT that doesn't stack (but would get prolonged when reapplied). Like a nasty headache. Unlimited procs per encounter (but doesn't stack as I said). It would be better in general - and quite good against anything with fear aura (but not too crazy if the DoT ticks are small enough).  

Edited by Boeroer
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Quote

If not, what could be your suggestion?

I was thinking about delay for Backlash too :)

And regarding Brutal Backlash: unless the damage is 60+, I see little use in it. Also need to check that it doesn't proc during Withdraw or Invisibility. How about Brutal Backlash:

  • v1. inflicting some heavy defense malus
  • v2. giving to cipher a hefty accuracy bonus vs that target;
  • v3. terrifying and disabling spellcasting for 7s on target

?

 

Re Echanter: yes, in it's current state it's lackluster. And partially because they lack access to Illusion spells. At the same time I don't really like giving permanent immunities. It can feel cheesy in some situations. 

+15%/+25% beneficial effect duration seems nice; but first would need to implement the change to Unbending Trunk. And think of other possible interactions.

Edited by MaxQuest
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17 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

What about Psychic Backlash causing only Staggered instead of Stun - but unlimited times per encounter? I mean we have stuff like Spirit Frenzy staggering everything left and right, even with Chanter phrases...

Definitely don't like putting Stagger. Cipher will be like: ok I can conditionally Stagger sometimes, now what?

But really dig your DoT idea.

 

How about:

  • Backlash: stuns the target for 10s. Has a refresh delay of 30s
  • Brutal Backlash: afflicts the target with a DoT that deals 30 dmg over 15s; While afflicted by this DoT the target takes +10% more base damage from all sources.

?

Edited by MaxQuest
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DoT damages does not feel very "brutal" to me.

And feels a bit unnecessary if the 30s delay prevents infinite reapplication.

My version of Brutal Backlash has 40 base damages + scaling. For the damages part, I think it's enough. Not sure something else is needed.

The main issue for me is uselessness Vs non will attacking battles. But I guess it will be useful often enough. And probably challenging to play against.

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