Armchair theories on why POE2 didn't sell super well

[daven]

There is so much stuff out there right now, everything is in competition for your money. Games like this probably need to manage their budget a lot better to make money. I doubt adding full VO gave it any additional sales.

Hey Obsidian, I'm a finance analyst! Let me come work for you! I spend my entire life making budgets......

[Daggerknight]

The only suggestions I could offer would have to do with the things I either didn't like, or thought were falling short of what POE 1 did. So... all of it just personal feelings, with some musings that maybe others felt the same upon hearing of such things.

- As some suggested, the pirate theme may have been seen as an odd next step after the last game. The plot itself just felt pointless by the end of it too, which is something others had talked about. Maybe that was deliberate, but such a move is basically too artsy for its own good if it was. 

- Performance issues cropped up that remained unresolved for a while.

- Smaller party size certainly stumped me at first. I went ahead and bought the game anyhow, because I love Obsidian, but that was not a favorable thing on the bullet point list for me prior to release. 

- Besides the plot, overall Deadfire came across as more of a mechanical evolution than a logical next step in scale or adventure. To cite the evolution of Icewind Dale to Icewind 2; you went from squad encounters to all out warfare. The encounters were bigger in the sequel, the scale of the journey covered more ground, the specific things you were expected to do were larger... the same can be said for BG  1 to 2. With POE 2, the evolution of scale sort of felt like it went sideways rather than up. We covered more geography, but the scale overall didn't feel much bigger than POE 1. Again, for me this didn't matter anyhow, because when I hear "Obsidian" and "fantasy RPG", I'm in... but most aren't like that I reckon. 

 

I still hope that we'll see a POE 3 someday, because at the end of the day, I enjoyed it. It was just in a bit of a strange place over all. 

[daven]

Even though BG1/2 are some of my favourite games. I would much prefer a POE3 than a BG3(which we're actually getting some some reason!).

[xzar_monty]

10 hours ago, thelee said:

Star Wars came out in a different era where there "franchise" as a movie/media/entertainment concept didn't really exist - in fact it basically invented it. And LotR (if you're talking the movies) are absolutely successful because they had a built-in fanbase and mindshare. I don't think it would've been greenlit if it didn't have that.

No, I meant the books. Clearly the movies couldn't apply to what I said.

[Lotti Fuehrscheim]

Oh, there were older movie franchises before Star Wars. Just think James Bond, still alive and kicking, somewhat. Kids these days, they think everything was invented in their lifetime.

[thelee]

1 hour ago, Lotti Fuehrscheim said:

Oh, there were older movie franchises before Star Wars. Just think James Bond, still alive and kicking, somewhat. Kids these days, they think everything was invented in their lifetime.

I mostly meant the merchandising/sheer-IP-overload that Star Wars pioneered. There weren't any James Bond rolexes and action figures or other tie-ins until well after Star Wars.

[ArnoldRimmer]

I think the setting was the big killer... it went form a classic roleplaying world to treasure island - at first it didn't really seem like the same world. As for Chris... he is hardly a legend and absolutely not a household name. I doubt you would find any houses where he was known. When I was growing up the legends and household names were the bitmap brothers... but still not  a household name. Where are these legends now??? 

I bought the PoE1 and 2 mainly becuase of BG, I really like them and think they are much better than BG2 - The best thing PoE did was not make classes/weapons required. BG2 pretty much required a thief if you wanted to open locks/disarm traps and if you were playing a paladin you better sure as hell have selected two-handed swords or you're going to regret it later. I really hope there is PoE3 as long as they keep RTWP otheriwse I shall probably just wait for BG3.

I also think the lack of a archetypal good path also didn't help. Sawyer seems to like being evil and giving bonuses to bad dudes, just look at all the stat bonuses bad guys received in PoE1 for killing NPCs. Then there was tyranny where every one is bad, and in deadfire all the fractions are bad or neutral... at least from my perspective. I play these games to be a hero and save people, not sacrifice friends and rob people! It's for this reason I never played bad and joined the thieve's guild in BG2.

Edited December 21, 2019 by ArnoldRimmer

[daven]

56 minutes ago, ArnoldRimmer said:

I think the setting was the big killer... it went form a classic roleplaying world to treasure island - at first it didn't really seem like the same world. As for Chris... he is hardly a legend and absolutely not a household name. I doubt you would find any houses where he was known. When I was growing up the legends and household names were the bitmap brothers... but still not  a household name. Where are these legends now???

 

I think terms like 'legend' and 'genius' are used too liberally. Someone like... Miyamoto can be considered a legend in the industry because of how long he has been around and the amount of successful games he's worked on over the years. Should Avellone? I don't think so. He's done some great work but that's about it, when's the last time he did anything outstanding?

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, ArnoldRimmer said:

When I was growing up the legends and household names were the bitmap brothers... but still not  a household name. Where are these legends now???

I had a brief stint within the computer game world in the late 1980s, and I would never regard the Bitmap Brothers as legends. To the extent that there were legends at the time (which is highly debatable), one would be David Braben, the creator of Elite, and another would be Richard Garriott, the creator of the Ultima world. But of course even these two nominations are dependent on the kinds of games you prefer. But there's just no way the Bitmap Brothers were legends. You mean, for Xenon and Speedball? Xenon was a good game, I don't deny that, but that's it -- it was just a good game.

I also agree with @daven in the sense that both legend and genius are very strong words that should be used with great care.

[ArnoldRimmer]

Yes, they were not legends but the closest thing at the time, at least as far as I was concerned. But they did make more than just xenon and speedball. Remember Z? Or The Chaos Engine? Magic Pockets?

Edited December 21, 2019 by ArnoldRimmer

[xzar_monty]

But you see, you are misusing the word legend. It is not a question of individual preference. A legend is someone who is overwhelmingly well known and greatly respected in their field. This does not apply to the Bitmap Brothers.

Eric Clapton is a legend of the blues guitar. I don't personally care for his music and never listen to it, but he is still a legend. Whether I like him or not makes no difference.

Edited December 22, 2019 by xzar_monty

[rjshae]

I still feel frustrated about PoE2 because the experience felt like a good game stuck behind a pair of, well, boat anchors. If one took out the clunky, repetitive ship combat system and replaced it with a quick-resolve dialogue interface, it would immensely improve the exploration feel. Likewise, chasing giant body of a god was very distracting to the remainder of the game. If they just dumped the body on the first island and left the outcome a mystery to the end, the mid game would have been much more enjoyable.

[Lotti Fuehrscheim]

On 12/20/2019 at 9:44 PM, thelee said:

I mostly meant the merchandising/sheer-IP-overload that Star Wars pioneered. There weren't any James Bond rolexes and action figures or other tie-ins until well after Star Wars.

Nonsense. The 007 Aston Martin with the ejection seat for instance was produced as a Dinky Toy, and I was very jealous that my friend had one.

Just Google "James bond merchandise 1960's" and you find all kind of stuff.

James Bond action figures: https://nl.pinterest.com/pin/202450945734736891/?lp=true

James Bond Road Race Set: https://cinemaretro.com/index.php?/archives/6570-OUT-OF-THE-PAST-VIDEO-TRIBUTE-TO-JAMES-BOND-1965-ROAD-RACE-SET.html

Why do you write such comments when you obviously don't know anything about it?

 

[Boeroer]

No idea. But why are you so very pissy about it?

[xzar_monty]

The Beatles also had  a lot of merchandise in the 1960s. I am not sure who started the whole thing, but I do agree with Boeroer that it's not necessary to get angry and superior about it.

[Lotti Fuehrscheim]

18 hours ago, Boeroer said:

No idea. But why are you so very pissy about it?

Me: there were films with merchandise long before he was born.

He: you are wrong, there were no action figures.

Me: here is the proof, you dumb ass!

That's why.

[xzar_monty]

You don't even know when he was born. Again, it's not helpful to get angry in an instant.

Incidentally, you wrote: "Kids these days, they think everything was invented in their lifetime." Are you aware that this is essentially the oldest complaint known to man? Almost literally. One of the earliest surviving written texts is a cuneiform wherein an elderly priest laments that the young ones no longer respect the gods the same way people did in days of yore. So the "kids these days" is the cliche of all cliches.

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, Lotti Fuehrscheim said:

Me: there were films with merchandise long before he was born.

He: you are wrong, there were no action figures.

Me: here is the proof, you dumb ass!

That's why.

First of all he didn't even say you were wrong but simply wanted to point out that he didn't mean the movies primarily but the merchandise. Then he made a wrong statement to emphasize this - but maybe only partially wrong. Because even though there might have been James Bond merchandise: I never saw it in shops and no friend of mine had any of it. But later on everybody ran around with Star Wars action figures. It was omnipresent.

Soeven while there was James Bond merchandise it wasn't very obvious, at least to him or me. I also doubt that it was very successful.

So... missing the fact that there was James Bond merchandise maybe a forgivable thing.

Anyway, point is: he wasn't even trying to prove you wrong, he just wanted to emphasize his point of view.

Secondly: even if he would have said that you're wrong your reaction would still be over the top. You reacted as if he insulted you personally - like if you are the inventor of James Bond merchandise himself. Didn't come across as mature (speaking of "kids these days"). 

[Lotti Fuehrscheim]

6 hours ago, Boeroer said:

So even while there was James Bond merchandise it wasn't very obvious, at least to him or me. I also doubt that it was very successful.

How could it be obvious to you and him when you weren't even there? Then you just don't know. So instead of saying that it didn't exist, you could inform yourself, or ask somebody about it who says that it did exist. Not knowing is not bad, but insisting out of ignorance is.

007 was big, even among children who couldn't even see the films legally, as it had adult content. But the gadgets were famous.

There were many other hypes with merchandise in the 1960's: Thunderbirds with figures and vehicles of all kinds, Ivanhoe with swords and shields, Batman with action figures, masks and capes and the bat-mobile.

Everybody has his youth in his own time, and of course those experiences are impressive to you. But it is stupid and very arrogant to assume that your own experience in these things is universal, and to assume that what you don't know doesn't exist.

And you do the same: " I also doubt that it was very successful."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corgi_Toys#Film_and_television_models

Quote

The most famous and best selling (to date) toy car of all, James Bond's Aston Martin DB5 (261) from the film Goldfinger, was issued in October 1965. Despite the fact that the casting of the new James Bond car was based heavily on the earlier Aston Martin DB4 model from 1960, it was the special features marked out this model. There were machine guns in the front wings which popped out at the touch of a button, a bulletproof shield which popped up to protect the rear screen when the exhaust pipes were pressed, and an ejector seat which fired through a roof panel which opened by the touch of another button. The model was released in time for the 1965 Christmas market and the Corgi factory found it was unable to keep up with demand, leading to coverage in the British press of stories of toy shop shelves being cleared of this new must-have toy in minutes. The model remains in production to this day in an updated form and has gone on to sell more than seven million examples in all its various versions.

So your assumption that I was telling bull**** is very wrong and very arrogant. (I was wrong calling it a Dinky Toy instead of a Corgi Toy, but whatever)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbirds_merchandise#Toys

Quote

When Thunderbirds was first broadcast, AP Films Merchandising awarded licences to companies such as Matchbox and Dinky to manufacture plastic and die-cast metal Thunderbirds vehicle toys.^[39] The subsidiary issued approximately 120 such licences,^[39] even buying a company (J. Rosenthal) to keep up with demand.^[40][41] Among the first items released by Dinky were a blue (rather than green) Thunderbird 2 and a six-inch-long (15 cm) FAB 1,^[42][43] of which more than two million were manufactured.^[44] By 1966, British commentators had dubbed the end-of-year shopping season "Thunderbirds Christmas" in the light of the series' popularity.^[45] Themed birthday cards for children, for ages 6 to 10, were available in Australia in the mid-1960s.

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Lotti Fuehrscheim
added content

[Boeroer]

Never said you were telling bull****. Improve your reading comprehension. I said that thelees's observation might be wrong and a mistake but that

a) it's forgivable and certain assumptions and (non)experiences might easily lead to such a mistake and

b) your reaction to this mistake is exaggerated and silly. 

Strong emphasize on b. You can be right about something and not be a complete douche about it. Also helps to sell your point.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Boeroer

[daven]

This argument is fruitless!

Merry Christmas lads.

[Gromnir]

42 minutes ago, daven said:

This argument is fruitless!

Merry Christmas lads.

thinking something similar

and you may ask yourself, well
how did i get here?

 

same as it ever was

same as it ever was

same as it ever was

...

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

10 hours ago, daven said:

This argument is fruitless!

Merry Christmas lads.

You meant "pointless".

Have a nice Christmas y'all!

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Boeroer

[thalrane]

On 11/12/2019 at 6:00 AM, Melusina said:

pirates setting, of course.

This - simply this. 

Everyone else is overthinking it.

[xzar_monty]

13 hours ago, thalrane said:

This - simply this. 

Everyone else is overthinking it.

This is what is generally called "an opinion". It's not as if there's anything substantial to back it up.