Politics First Contact

[Malcador]

I still hope Scotland leaves.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Hopefully this means a united Ireland.

[Gorth]

26 minutes ago, Malcador said:

I still hope Scotland leaves.

Scotland explained...

 

 

[Zoraptor]

Best way to make sure Scotland leaves is to include the rest of the UK in a vote. Realistically with a big Tory majority they can laugh at any SNP demands, and laugh at anything Ireland related too. Boris could even tear up his proposed agreement if he wanted to, since he's effectively purged the pro EU wing of his party.

1 hour ago, Chilloutman said:

Turns out people in UK really want to leave that union, will commi.. I mean labor want 3rd referendum? xD

Conservatives were always likely to win because it was essentially a single issue election and the remain vote was splintered which is a disaster in a first past the post system. Even if the support for remain/ leave had not just reversed from the referendum result but gone a bit further 45% committed to leave will beat 55% remainers in an election if the remainers are split between multiple parties.

It would have been a second referendum, but Labour was always on a hiding to nothing given the split between the cryptoTory centrist Blairites who are hard core remainers and the more traditional Labour voter in the north who voted to leave and largely switched to the Tories based on that single issue. They had to try and placate both and failed to appeal to either.

[Hurlshort]

This President Trump versus a 16-year old girl stuff is soooooo weird.

[Gromnir]

14 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

This President Trump versus a 16-year old girl stuff is soooooo weird.

trump being classless and petty is not weird. what nevertheless manages to bother us is how his base cheers trump's worst behaviors. that people who overwhelming see themselves as salt of the earth christians could embrace trump as their champion, and extol his virtue as he attacks anybody who displeases him, is disheartening even if it is expected.

"we are not enemies, but friends. we must not be enemies. though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. the mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

is no wonder 2019 republicans believe trump is a better President than lincoln. after all, lincoln sounds weak, right? 

trump being trump. is little he can do or say which we see as weird or surprising.  would take self-sacrifice and compassion from trump to have us see weird. and yet, in spite o' all evidence to contrary, and three years o'  constant disappointments, Gromnir grieves for America everytime his base cheers the latest bit of stoopid and petty cruelty from the President.

am thinking the only thing which is genuine weird is we still care.

[Agiel]

The False Romance of Russia by Anne Applebaum

Having recently brushed up on Roger Griffin's <<The Nature of Fascism>> and <<Terrorist's Creed>> the following seems particularly pointed:

Quote

But in the 21st century, we must also contend with a new phenomenon: right-wing intellectuals, now deeply critical of their own societies, who have begun paying court to right-wing dictators who dislike America.

And their motives are curiously familiar. All around them, they see degeneracy, racial mixing, demographic change, “political correctness,” same-sex marriage, religious decline. The America that they actually inhabit no longer matches the white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant America that they remember, or think they remember. And so they have begun to look abroad, seeking to find the spiritually unified, ethnically pure nations that, they imagine, are morally stronger than their own. Nations, for example, such as Russia.

 

And what has always struck me as most surprising about the "blood and soil" right-wingers' weird fascination with Putin's Russia:

 

Quote

If American Christians would find little to cheer for in Vladimir Putin’s Russia, American white nationalists would be disappointed too. Carlson has wondered aloud about America’s racial mix, asking, “How precisely is diversity our strength?” He would have a real dilemma in Russia. Nearly 20 percent of Russian citizens do not even identify as Russian, telling pollsters that they belong to different nationalities, ranging from Tartar and Azeri to Ukrainian and Moldovan; more than 6 percent of Russians are Muslims, as opposed to 1.1 percent of the U.S. population. And that might be a gross underestimate of the actual number of Russian Muslims, since in some parts of the country, Muslims are off-limits to census takers.

Remember all those phony stories about Swedish and British neighborhoods that are supposedly no-go zones ruled by Sharia law? Russia has an actual province, Chechnya, that is officially ruled by Sharia law. The local regime tolerates polygamy, requires women to be veiled in public places, and tortures gay men. It is a no-go zone, right inside Russia.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Agiel

[Bartimaeus]

@Gromnir

A couple years back, I saw a clip of Trump boarding Air Force One when the wind knocked a stationary serviceman's hat off, and I saw Trump chase after it while it was being blown away and eventually pick it up for him. It was oddly wholesome, and not a light I'd ever seen...or would ever again see...from him. I would like to think that there may be other such human moments that have occurred throughout his presidency, even if rare and not televised, but it is Trump we're talking about.

(e): Losing Kentucky Republican Governor pardons 428 convicted criminals, including some murderers and child rapists, on his way out: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/12/defeated-gop-governor-pardoned-violent-criminals-spree-lawyers-are-calling-an-atrocity-justice/ (revenge against state that voted him out? idk, very strange and terrible)

Edited December 13, 2019 by Bartimaeus

[Lexx]

Oh god damn it, UK.... Honestly, now they deserve everything they get. Like, seriously. I can't believe this.

[Bartimaeus]

1 minute ago, Lexx said:

Oh god damn it, UK.... Honestly, now they deserve everything they get. Like, seriously. I can't believe this.

The writing's been on the wall for a while now. Wonder if we'll still be able to use the term "UK" in ten years time.

[Zoraptor]

7 minutes ago, Agiel said:

And what has always struck me as most surprising about the "blood and soil" right-wingers weird fascination with Putin's Russia:

They aren't fascinated with Russia though- indeed the country itself is almost totally irrelevant- they're fascinated with Putin himself and, effectively, want a scenario with (idealised) US President Putin, ie an effective leader who 'gets stuff done', isn't particularly bothered with the niceties and doesn't take any crap from anyone while doing it. They don't care about Russia having a bewildering array of minorities or about Chechnya because they don't know about that, and if they did they still wouldn't care. They care that Putin took a disintegrating bankrupt nation that was heading seemingly irremediably towards irrelevance- which is how they view the future of the US if things don't change- back to the diplomatic and geopolitical high table, and they aren't bothered by how he did it.

[Skarpen]

2 hours ago, Agiel said:

The False Romance of Russia by Anne Applebaum

Having recently brushed up on Roger Griffin's <<The Nature of Fascism>> and <<Terrorist's Creed>> the following seems particularly pointed:

 

And what has always struck me as most surprising about the "blood and soil" right-wingers' weird fascination with Putin's Russia:

 

Except no one actually does that. It's a fake news created by progressives. Because they cannot win in any argumentation even imaginary ones they go for smearing and hoaxes to show opposition in bad light.

[Raithe]

Yup. All sides pretty much ran terrible campaigns over here in the UK. So Boris doing the "lets just get Brexit done" resonated with all the people who have just got fed up and frustrated with it being the only thing on the news or government for the past 3 years.

Labour's "Great Wall of Red" the zone of seats that have been Labour going back 100 years has been shattered (or at least thoroughly nibbed on).

The Lib Dems who who basically did the "lets ignore the initial brexit vote and get you guys to do a 2nd and 3rd referendum on it" got thoroughly screwed over - the leader of the party lost her seat.

So now there's a Tory majority through most of the country, although the SNP (Scottish National Party) pretty much took over Scotland, so expect even more outcry for yet another Scottish referendum for independence.

[Guard Dog]

It seems so unlikely the UK would break up just ten years ago. Now it it looking more and more likely. Scotland and the rest of the UK are not that politically divergent except over the EU. The deal with Northern Ireland and the rest or Ireland seems like it will keep the status quo on the west side of the Irish Sea with NI operating under EU rules with respect to trade and travel to Ireland. But that can't last long term. If Scotland bolts at sometime in the near future I'd bet NI will too. 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/uk-election-result-what-the-tory-win-means-for-brexit-and-ireland-1.4114269

 

[smjjames]

9 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Except no one actually does that. It's a fake news created by progressives. Because they cannot win in any argumentation even imaginary ones they go for smearing and hoaxes to show opposition in bad light.

If you said it like this: "Except no one actually does that. It's a fake news, because they cannot win in any argumentation even imaginary ones they go for smearing and hoaxes to show opposition in bad light." I bet you couldn't tell who said it. SPOILER: Because both sides say it.

For Brexit though, I don't see it as being any easier even with a majority because those conservative members who don't really want a full on no-deal Brexit may be more emboldened to push for their consistuencies. Then again, I'm probably thinking of American politics vs British politics since party control isn't as strict here as in the UK.

Having the UK break up further would be quite something to add to Queen Elizabeth II's legacy, but obviously it's only a fraction of the totality of her legacy

[Guard Dog]

3 minutes ago, smjjames said:

 

Having the UK break up further would be quite something to add to Queen Elizabeth II's legacy, but obviously it's only a fraction of the totality of her legacy

Why? She has less than nothing to do with it. The monarch and royal family are sort of like the Union Jack. Just a symbol of the country not an actual governing entity.  It would be like us blaming the Statue of Liberty if Texas seceded. 

[smjjames]

I know she has nothing to do with it, but having reigned through the fall of the British Empire (which she also had nothing to do with), it's still history and part of her legacy, right? I just mean it's going to be part of her reigns history as much as it's going to be part of England's history.

[HoonDing]

Little England.

[Raithe]

As one of my friends put it...

It was wrong to call a general election before we’d left the EU as it became a 3rd referendum on the matter. I’m a remainer but it’s clear after a referendum and two general elections I am in a minority on that. However because Brexit is still ongoing this general election, in my opinion, was treated as an EU referendum (as was the 2017 one) with too many focusing on that one issue; par...ties, media, news outlets, and voters.
Brexit should not have been the focus of this general election; other policies and issues and how this country handles them, are much more important.
We need to focus on other things now; poverty, education, health, the NHS, the emergency services, and so much more and move on from whether we stay in the EU; that decision has been made three times now and just needs to be concluded rather than constantly debated.

[Gfted1]

Whats wrong with the NHS, in your opinion? After all, an ambulance callout costs you zero. The birth of your child cost you zero in medical bills. Isnt this nirvana? *gestures toward butterfly*

[ShadySands]

It's probably being purposefully underfunded. I mean, that's what I expect to happen here if we ever get that far.

[Gfted1]

But all the same services still exist, I think. So is the result of the underfunding that it takes longer in queue?

[Zoraptor]

Bit more than that. Too few overworked and poorly paid doctors/ nurses and general staff with too little equipment and not enough beds not just make everything slower, it leads to mistakes and worse results when you do get treated; plus a lot of talented staff will leave for greener- better paid- pastures overseas. Constant complaints also lead to lower morale and a perception that the whole system is imploding even if it still (mostly) works.

Taking longer in a queue is pretty important in medical care, if that queue is for a Specialist appointment or an important treatment. If you notice a lump and it takes 3 months to see an Oncologist and he wishes he could have seen it 6 weeks earlier when it was still treatable...

[Guard Dog]

Apparently this happened:

 

Assuming this was not a joke I am surprised. I always thought Civil War 2.0 would be instigated by power mad progressive Democrats. After the last four years I'd say it's a toss up. 

[smjjames]

The REAL test will be seeing if Donald Trump attempts to run for a third term after re-election and if the Republicans try to stop him. Anyways, Huckabee is full of BS, so.....