Hurlshort Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 3 hours ago, Skarpen said: Christians are already the most persecuted group in the world no need to add to it. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 That's one of those technically correct depending on (so much) context (as to make it useless) things. For ongoing religion based displacement of persons the largest group supposedly is christians, but that is with a bunch of caveats. Religion based, so muslims in Syria/ Iraq don't count but christians do; ongoing so Palestinians don't count; and while we're at it we'll exclude the Rohingya since that's an ethnicity which just happens to be muslim being ethnically cleansed etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) No doubt Christians are persecuted in many places in the world today. The idea that Gorth is adding to that with his statement is at best clumsy, and at worst is manipulating a tragic situation to score points in an argument. Edited June 30, 2019 by Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktchong Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) That is a real survey. That is the actual official poll sent out by the Trump 2020 Campaign. Here is a link to the full survey at the official Trump website. P.S. "An" MS-13 Democrat, not "a" MS-13 Democrat. I guess Trump wrote the survey himself. Edited June 30, 2019 by ktchong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, Hurlshot said: No doubt Christians are persecuted in many places in the world today. The idea that Gorth is adding to that with his statement is at best clumsy, and at worst is manipulating a tragic situation to score points in a dumb debate. Certainly railing against the Catholic priesthood's predilection for underage sex doesn't really count as 'persecution'. In context Poland has its own Catholic sex scandal at the moment as well that is part of its ongoing culture war, so there's a lot of 'persecution' claims thrown around there; no doubt that is where the claim originates in context, and the situation in Aus sounded similar. (Fairly sure that Folau isn't actually Catholic, so much as that matters, but is some sort of evangelical. Most Tongans are methodist iirc, and fairly conservative but not nearly as conservative as he purports to be. So far as I'm aware he also never did a Missionary Year as many other prominent religious sporting Tongans have done) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktchong Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) Edited June 30, 2019 by ktchong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktchong Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) Edited June 30, 2019 by ktchong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarpen Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Hurlshot said: I'm going with this, kinda fresh studies: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48146305 https://aleteia.org/2019/05/06/christians-are-most-persecuted-group-in-the-world-study-says/ https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/2019/april/global-persecution-report-christians-are-the-most-persecuted-and-its-accelerating 26 minutes ago, ktchong said: That is a real survey. That is the actual official poll sent out by the Trump 2020 Campaign. Here is a link to the full survey at the official Trump website. Nice joke. Goes in match with the latest Trump 4ever tweet and will probably throw US media into the same level of frenzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 I can post videos too ktchong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 44 minutes ago, ktchong said: That is a real survey. That is the actual official poll sent out by the Trump 2020 Campaign. Here is a link to the full survey at the official Trump website. P.S. "An" MS-13 Democrat, not "a" MS-13 Democrat. I guess Trump wrote the survey himself. None of the above "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktchong Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Hurlshot said: No doubt Christians are persecuted in many places in the world today. The idea that Gorth is adding to that with his statement is at best clumsy, and at worst is manipulating a tragic situation to score points in an argument. Ok, now I'm seriously curious. Exactly what am I manipulating here? As for scoring points, I know as well as the next even remotely sentient being, that there are no winners in internet debates, only losers. Some people just get a kick out of attention, I guess you call them "winners" if you pay them attention. But but yeah, to repeat the question, manipulating exactly what? On a tangent not related to the doings of the Cristian churches here, how would you, generic you, not Hurlshot you, measure most persecuted anyway? Number of individuals? Degree of persecution (i.e. being fed to lions or just not being allowed to stone women who get raped or by duration? In which case the Jews probably wins). Most persecution of Christians these days is done by other Christian denominations. Notable exceptions being places like Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt and Nigeria where the persecution is done by Muslims. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
injurai Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 This page needs more videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 hours ago, ktchong said: That is a real survey. That is the actual official poll sent out by the Trump 2020 Campaign. Here is a link to the full survey at the official Trump website. P.S. "An" MS-13 Democrat, not "a" MS-13 Democrat. I guess Trump wrote the survey himself. I think 'an' is correct in this case based on the sound. So definitely means Trump didn't do it. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gorth said: Ok, now I'm seriously curious. Exactly what am I manipulating here? As for scoring points, I know as well as the next even remotely sentient being, that there are no winners in internet debates, only losers. Some people just get a kick out of attention, I guess you call them "winners" if you pay them attention. But but yeah, to repeat the question, manipulating exactly what? Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear, but I was referring to Skarpen's response as manipulative. You know, the one that accused you of persecuting Christians like they do in parts of the Islamic world. Edited July 1, 2019 by Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Like every office party. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 4 hours ago, ktchong said: That is a real survey. That is the actual official poll sent out by the Trump 2020 Campaign. Here is a link to the full survey at the official Trump website. P.S. "An" MS-13 Democrat, not "a" MS-13 Democrat. I guess Trump wrote the survey himself. Ovious politically biased poll is obvious.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadySands Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 After his previous internal polling had him losing to several Dems he had to come up with something he'd definitely win. Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Hurlshot said: Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear, but I was referring to Skarpen's response as manipulative. You know, the one that accused you of persecuting Christians like they do in parts of the Islamic world. Oh Ehh... Ooops? Apologies Hurlshot. Child abuse a subject I feel strongly about. Time to roll down the sleeves again “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarpen Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Hurlshot said: Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear, but I was referring to Skarpen's response as manipulative. You know, the one that accused you of persecuting Christians like they do in parts of the Islamic world. I think you vastly exaggerated my comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maedhros Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 11 hours ago, Skarpen said: How's that Barnevernet doing this days? They're doing alright. Their reputation in third world countries (and Eastern europe) is horrible though. It's a huge problem for parents here who don't understand how they work. Yes, you're not allowed to beat your kid...that doesn't mean you're supposed to refrain from setting boundaries for it. I'm a big sympathiser for them in most of those scandal cases that happened some years ago. Because of confidentiality rules they couldn't really defend themselves properly to the public, so we only got to hear it from one side. From my experience with them they've been thourougly professional. Children should have the freedom to grow up without abusive parents. My own girlfriend was given a new foster home by barnevernet and her life changed for the better because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skarpen Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Maedhros said: They're doing alright. Their reputation in third world countries (and Eastern europe) is horrible though. It's a huge problem for parents here who don't understand how they work. Yes, you're not allowed to beat your kid...that doesn't mean you're supposed to refrain from setting boundaries for it. I'm a big sympathiser for them in most of those scandal cases that happened some years ago. Because of confidentiality rules they couldn't really defend themselves properly to the public, so we only got to hear it from one side. From my experience with them they've been thourougly professional. Children should have the freedom to grow up without abusive parents. My own girlfriend was given a new foster home by barnevernet and her life changed for the better because of it. How about Norwegians seeking asylum from them in other countries? https://visegradpost.com/en/2019/01/12/poland-land-of-asylum-for-norwegian-families/ I wouldn't call conviction by European Court of Human Rights as "doing fine". Edited July 1, 2019 by Skarpen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 6 hours ago, Gorth said: 1 hour ago, Gorth said: Oh Ehh... Ooops? Apologies Hurlshot. Child abuse a subject I feel strongly about. Time to roll down the sleeves again On a tangent not related to the doings of the Cristian churches here, how would you, generic you, not Hurlshot you, measure most persecuted anyway? Number of individuals? Degree of persecution (i.e. being fed to lions or just not being allowed to stone women who get raped or by duration? In which case the Jews probably wins). Most persecution of Christians these days is done by other Christian denominations. Notable exceptions being places like Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt and Nigeria where the persecution is done by Muslims. Gorthfuscious why you trying to destroy Christianity? Empires have attempted that and it has failed ....look at the Vikings and the Romans, eventually they converted Its easy to sometimes misunderstand where someones post was directed towards, so Hurlshot was making the point towards sharp but you raised an interesting broader question about religious prosecution in the modern world ...how do we define it and where the issues lies? I dont want to look at this historically because of the complexity and numerous factors....for example some religions and or ethic groups in ancient times were effectively obliterated based primarily on there religious beliefs. We could argue historically they were the most prosecuted, like the Babylonians. So lets discuss this in the last 30 years or so as we have the most information and active data both anecdotal and easily accessible It is relevant as you mentioned to define " persecution " in the context of religious persecution. I would break it into " hard " and " soft " persecution to answer that So " hard " persecution would for example be killings, new laws being interacted specifically targeting the religion , denying someone access to courts and or someone not being able to practice there religion meaningfully in any country because they represent a certain religious group Christians nowadays are subjected to this in some places like targeted attacks from ISIS throughout the ME, violence in Africa where groups like Boko Haram and Al-Shabaab attempt to single out Christians only and generally end up killing all innocents in there typical appalling logic and the reality of being able to be Christian and how to practice it in parts of India and or China But Muslims surely face the most hard persecution and there are many examples of this like Myanmar, huge targeting of Chinese Muslims by the Chinese government and then the killing of Muslims by ISIS in the ME. However it is also self-inflicted meaning Muslims and most deaths are caused within the Muslim community....like the Shia/Sunni conflict and the violence we see through the outcomes of the Arab Spring. This is Muslims killing Muslims " Soft " persecution I define as where nowadays we see attempts to undermine or legally change religious values or religious culture that has always existed in a particular country. And ironically this seems to be more common in " Western " Christian countries which have the greatest freedoms, I think it is wrong and divisive So trying to stop people celebrating or openly supporting Xmas in countries where most people are Christian is wrong ( they even celebrate Xmas in parts of the UAE), stopping schools from singing Christian hymns in a predominantly Christian school seems misplaced and illogical ....you cant force someone to sing but you shouldn't stop people who want to. And then when people want to criticize how intolerant religion is they generally bring up examples of certain Christian churches...as if Christianity is the problem compared to all religions when in fact I can give many other examples of how intolerant other religions are throughout the world. So it creates this view its easy to criticize Christianity because Christians will just accept it in the interests of freedom of speech. And I am not suggesting we shouldnt raise valid issues with religion and that religions shouldnt be progressive in certain ways but the narrative should be balanced and not target one group Interesting topic to debate, I look forward to your comments and other peoples views "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 9 hours ago, Hurlshot said: I can post videos too ktchong. I disagree with this explanation. If you understeer your car into a tree, you die. If you oversteer your car into a tree, you die with a smile. 2 Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majestic Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 8 hours ago, Malcador said: I think 'an' is correct in this case based on the sound. So definitely means Trump didn't do it. It's incorrect in the survey ("a") and ktchong pointed that out with a bit of a clumsy, unclear sentence. I read the survey and the post twice because my initial reaction was the same. No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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