Why POE II became unplayable for me

[Makumba666]

Hi all,

This topic is about "rebalancing" games- i.e. making them unplayable. Why not leave them alone? Of course I understand when developers correct bugged abilities, which do not work as they were supposed to work, or add new ones, but why you change other skills/abilities? This changes everything... this is absolutely different game now! Obsidian "rebalanced" game called Tyrany in such way, that now leveling up must be avoided at any cost, because higher level you become weaker compared to any mob you become.

This happened here too. It seems Obsidian can not just stop and not ruin everything. I played first version of POE II and liked it. Of course there were some bugs and stuff, but I still enjoyed game. Now I try to replay game and it feels absolutely different. Classes I was playing are absolutely different now. For example Cipher - never actually was uber class in POE II, but now it feels absolutely nerfed and piece of... ****. Spells/skills that were really useful are either removed or nerfed and are now something below average.  

Can anybody explain why Obsidian is doing this? why mess everything and turn good game into a piece of ***?

[Heijoushin]

Well, this should be obvious, but Obsidian is tinkering with the game because they're genuinely trying to make it better. The changes are most likely based on player feedback and statistics.

 

And while it might be frustrating that it takes years for a game to reach it's "final form" these days, Obsidian is a wonderful company in that they're constantly pumping out free updates (a rarity in today's world of monetization madness)

 

So, don't you think you're overreacting a little? It's hardly unplayable (or a "piece of ****") because your cipher was nerfed. Why don't you roll a new class and experience the magic afresh?

Edited April 15, 2019 by Heijoushin

[Makumba666]

I think tinkering with already released games should be stopped, because it ruins everything. To my knowledge Obsidian is the only company that does it - you can not see such things in Skyrim, Witcher... or many other games, cause developers understand - keeping  integrity of the game is much more important, than "rebalansing" issues.

And as for experiencing magic afresh, I have no desire to do it, because it is absolutely different game. Spells now have different damage, game mechanic uses different formulas etc. etc.  Learn everything anew? And remember what was after each patch? "I need this spell... it is good... ooh no, they nerfed it in 2.0... and then changed in 3.0 and again they changed it in 4.0... damn them". I better play some game that has constant rules. When I say game is unplayable I mean I don't know which abilities\spells to choose, because they changed everything billion times. Thats why the entire game is a big mess and it is terrible when you need to read patch notes just to play game. By playing I mean playing efficiently and creating strong character - not some garbage, which still can win game.

[Gromnir]

am rare finding obsidian has nerfed a class to unplayability, but have admitted not played since lateish january.  also, in the spirit o' full disclosure, we tend to see lazy nerfing by obsidian as a reaction to player opness.

 

 

from our pov, obsidian is over invested in whacking individual moles as 'posed to making changes which would prevent new moles from appearing.

 

if we had to indulge in an exercise o' oversimplification, we would suggest obsidian undenerfs classes, but overnerfs particular powers and abilities. if an ability is too good and makes for a functional win-button-choice, obsidian will make certain nobody wants to use such ability... evar.  there may be a dozen things needing attention 'bout a class, but is the glaring op stuff which gets attention, and obsidian's fix often makes the singular spell or ability no longer worthy o' consideration.  as such, looking at individual nerfs in isolation, they will look harsh and punitive, but rare is a class utter defined by a singular ability, and when such happens it is a mistake demanding developer attention. 

 

can't honest think o' an intentional obsidian change which made a class genuine bad or unplayable, though a few bugs has come close to doing so.  that said, am gonna admit obsidian has arguable overnerfed individual abilities and powhaz, but is easier for Gromnir to make such calls sitting on the sideline and with the benefit o' hindsight.  so long after release, obsidian has got limited time and resources to devote to poe2, and singular power fixes is no doubt easier to test and implement as 'posed to more systemic changes.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Not much has changed since January.

 

Wasn't cipher actually buffed since release? I remember that they got a casting times reduction through the board. Not the best example maybe...

 

I don't remember removed abilities. Which were those?

Edited April 15, 2019 by Boeroer

[Gromnir]

Not much has changed since January.

 

Wasn't cipher actually buffed since release? I remember that they got a casting times reduction through the board. Not the best example maybe...

yeah.  the cipher were one o' the top vote winners whenever there were a worst class poll at release.  cipher never seemed that bad to us, but there were a universal reduction in cast times which did much to makes the cipher folks happier.  however, the last patch am recalling in january had a few focus cost increases... which were needed, but am recalling a near double o' the cost for pain block. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Ah right. Didn't really notice though. At the same time focus generation was amped up generally AND focus generation from Beguiler and Draining Whip were buffed.

All in all, cipher is in a MUCH better place now than it was at release.

While I agree that some nerfs feel a bit "cheap", the overall class power - as you said - didn't suffer that much. At least not when I judge it - based on the experience of multiple playthroughs.

There were several buffs to counter nerfs. Maybe not enough for some players though.

I would understand if the complaint was about item nerfs. Because those got hit pretty hard. Not devastatingly hard and some were gramebreakingly good - but I think the hit was harder then it needed to be.

We have seen that Obsidian listens to feedback (if it's brought forward reasonably enough and is vocal enough). Look at general/shared abilities, summoned weapons' casting times, Firebrand and so on (not Gromnir's favorite but he took it like a real champ ).

So what you want is to write a reasonable, well founded piece without scatology and then try to get people on board. That is if you want to really change things. If so just want to vent your anger then of course you can totally go on with ranting and using fecal matter to paint an image of your frustration.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Boeroer

[asnjas]

You keep saying different like its a bad thing. It isnt. You wrote all that and said very little.

 

Why do they change everything? The irony is they do it to appease gamers like you. The gamers that demand balance over everything. Like the men and women that keep getting plastic surgury looking for perfect face. Obsidian changes the classes. No class is actually a nerfed pile a sht. No class is unplayable. You only think they are.

[Gromnir]

 

So what you want is to write a reasonable, well founded piece without scatology and then try to get people on board. That is if you want to really change things. If so just want to vent your anger then of course you can totally go on with ranting an using fecal matter to paint an image of your frustration.

 

am suspecting there is some cathartic value in venting spleen, and even w/o an identifiable criticism, is possible there would be usefulness if he/she could get a large number o' folks to join in with the p00p hurling-- even if obsidian can't figure out why makumba believes cipher play were ruined, they might try and fix if enough people shared vague feelings o' cipher inadequacy.  w/o focus, would need be much poop tossed to elicit positive change. 

 

...

 

even so, if the goal is to prod obsidian to make changes, or reverse changes in this case, am thinking the genesis poster would be far more likely succeed if he/she would identify specifics-- tell developers what nerfs were ill conceived and why such changes were having an undesirable game impact.  at the moment, am unable to guess with any confidence what cipher changes offend makumba.  would an obsidian developer have more luck diving the genesis post for useful criticism?  doubtful. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guest Psychovampiric Shield]

Getting weaker compated to mobs? I must have played different Tyranny.

[Manveru123]

I'm pretty sure in Tyranny even after nerfs you get to be a demi-god if you set up your spells correctly. I remember some mid-to-late game combinations used to be awesome. Haven't played it in months tho, was it ubernerfed or something?

 

As for PoE, this dead horse has been beaten up long enough. Even I got bored of complaining about it. Next time just give the game a year or so before you buy it, so that you get a finished product. Problem solved.

[Makumba666]

People you misunderstood me - I mentioned cipher only as an example. The same with sorcerer spells - many spells that were useful were nerfed in patches. I understand when MMO creators do such things, cause they have to keep balance between different classes - i.e. players, but what is the matter with offline games? Why nerf ability, cause it is too much fun?  That is wrong approach. I would suggest (if changes are inevitable) to change other abilities to make them fun. I understand, it may seem just and fair on the first glance, but this is a game, remember? This have to have some fun factor. Instead Obsidian does everything to make every class dull and literally unworthy of required time to develop character. You enjoy something, you find it fun?  We will take it away and make everything dull around you, cause that is the way our games should be played.  I am sure this is Obsidian's motto. 

 

Manveru,

Your advice is good for only Obsidian made games - no other game developers change game balance in patches, they just add - NOT CHANGE. To my knowledge Obsidian is the only company that does it. For example, take DOS - they release patches and add-ons too, but keep game same, because maintaining game integrity is much more important, than balancing issues. This will assure every person that played the game played SAME GAME, not absolutely different ones. Obsidian does not understand this. 

I think instead of waiting a year I would choose game from different game developer, that does not ruin everything. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Makumba666

[Uni]

Nerfing is good because it makes selecting abilities a real choice instead some of them just being obviously 100 times better than others. This makes the game much more fun as you are incentivized to use a spell that is good for a certain situation rather than just always spam the same few overpowered ones.

 

Deadfire was completely unplayable on release if you wanted to be challenged by the combat. Even on hardest difficulty the game became a complete joke halfway through. Its in so much better state now even if the balancing done by obsidian is still pretty poor compared to what is seen in multiplayer games.

 

Asking a dev to not change the game for the better when it has huge balance issues is really weird. And if you really hate change so much you can always play the release version. I guess you cant do that with the DLC thou.

 

I do agree with you that buffing a lot of the bad abilities would be good and while obsidian did some of that there are still a lot of really bad spells that are almost never worth using over their competition.

[Boeroer]

I mentioned cipher only as an example.

Yes, but why? It is not an example that is suited to prove or illustrate your point - because it shows the exact opposite.

 

The same with sorcerer spells - many spells that were useful were nerfed in patches.

I don't think so. I've played the game from open beta until now and I really have trouble naming a wizard spell that was heavily nerfed. But a few come to mind that were buffed: first of all we got a general casting time improval. Then we got adjusted PEN values - or the other way round: PEN got an overhaul - casters profited the most from that. Summoned weapons' casting times got shorter, we got some passives that improve casting speed, we got spellshaping.

 

If you must complain about nerfs then you should maybe give examples that actually support your claims: item nerfs, Chanter nerfs (Beckoner, Briliant Invocation for example). Because if you just make a claim and then back it up with something that brittle it makes it difficult to take the criticism seriously (in addition to the language you used).

 

I understand when MMO creators do such things, cause they have to keep balance between different classes - i.e. players, but what is the matter with offline games? Why nerf ability, cause it is too much fun?

Because I do care. And I'm not alone. Generally speaking: the players who play this game more than once or twice do care more about balance. An overpowered ability/item - like an underpowered one - leads to boredom. If something is too good to pass it - that actually takes away fun and does not foster it; for the player who plays this game repeatedly, mind you. A one/two time player doesn't need to care.

 

I'll give you an extreme example of a (still) very overpowered combo and why it is no fun to play it after the initial "Oh my!" hype:

Grab a Berserker/Beckoner and give him Grave Calling, enchant with Chilling Grave. Summon 6 skeletons that split into 12 (overall) after death.

Frenzy and become confused. Send the skeletons onto the enemy. Hit your skeleton in the back. It will die, creatig a Chillfog. That CHillfog will kill all other skeletons, each creating a Chillfog. All those dead skeletons will spawn two additional ones who immediately die, creating Chillfogs. This all takes les than 5 secs. You'll have 18 parallel Chillfogs going - each profiting from all the weapon's enchantments (Legendary and whatnot). Every encounter (except against frost immune foes and Megabosses) clears nearly instantly. It's fun at first, but very boring after a few fights. Because you're Superman without the Kryptonite. Obsidians wants to make sure that there are no "must take" options. You can decide to not like that approach and that's fair enough - but don't believe that your take on this is self-certified and obvious. I, as a player who does multiple playthroughs (but don#t play a lot of different games), do like balancing. I don't say that I always agree with Obsidian's balancing moves, but I don't question balancing itself.

 

It's a bit like with cheats: some people do enjoy playing on god-mode and find delight in this "illusions of grandeur" - but most players find it boring and no fun at all.

 

You can read the reasons why Josh Sayer thinks that balancing is a good thing even with a single player game:

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/161302725596/balance-in-single-player-crpgs

Edited April 15, 2019 by Boeroer

[Gromnir]

stuff 

 

you still have not provided the developers (or fellow posters) with any specifics.  how is obsidian, or others s'posed to respond to such a sweeping generalization?  

 

please provide a few examples o' overnerf, and most important, why such changes were overnerf.  am willing to consider the possibility that you are correct, but you are not giving us anything meaningful to respond to. surely if obsidian  took good gameplay and rendered ciphers and other classes into piece(s) of … ****, you could indicate what were changed which is wrong, yes?

 

alternatively, if you have not played the game since release, and you cannot name specific changes which is bad but you nevertheless genuine feel as if your characters is weaker, there may be alternative explanations.  potd, for example, got a difficulty upgrade from the developers soonish after release.  the potd difficulty increases is particular noticeable in the earliest portions of the game.  

 

you sound unhappy, but you ain't giving the developers anything to work with.  help a fellow gamer out and provide a few actionable concerns.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[hilfazer]

Grab a Berserker/Beckoner and give him Grave Calling, enchant with Chilling Grave. Summon 6 skeletons that split into 12 (overall) after death.

Frenzy and become confused. Send the skeletons onto the enemy. Hit your skeleton in the back. It will die, creatig a Chillfog. That CHillfog will kill all other skeletons, each creating a Chillfog. All those dead skeletons will spawn two additional ones who immediately die, creating Chillfogs. This all takes les than 5 secs. You'll have 18 parallel Chillfogs going - each profiting from all the weapon's enchantments (Legendary and whatnot). Every encounter (except against frost immune foes and Megabosses) clears nearly instantly.

Adding A and B and C and D and E and F makes an OP combo!

I've learned that after playing the game 7 times and reading forums for months.

It has to be addressed by balance team ASAP!

[thelee]

The same with sorcerer spells - many spells that were useful were nerfed in patches. I understand when MMO creators do such things, cause they have to keep balance between different classes - i.e. players, but what is the matter with offline games? Why nerf ability, cause it is too much fun?

I really hate this argument. I don't know how to appeal to people who make this argument, because I think fundamentally they just want something different out of a game.

 

When FF7 gameplay devolved into W-Summon Knights of the Round, I got bored as hell. A lot of people seemed to like it.

 

Some people like to turn on god mode when playing offline FPS games. i find it boring as hell.

 

Games like Assassin's Creed Odyssey or Division 2 have "choice" in their progression system, but have uncapped levels or some such that eventually everyone has every skill possible and individual character choice leveling up is obliterated. Some people like not having to make decisions, I find it nihilistic and empty (though tbf games like division 2 end up focusing more on loot for differentiation). Even "better" game systems may still be un-capped and effectivley punish long-term players by making all their characters increasingly more same-y (Fallout 4, Prey, Skyrim).

 

I want a game where there is no obvious "I-win" button, and part of the challenge of playing the game is assembling the pieces together and doing so requires making meaningful trade-offs and choices. Feeling powerful is a natural element of RPG progression, but within reason. There was no point to any character developing decisions in FF8 because once you could spam Renzozuken nothing else mattered. Even in RPG action games like New Vegas, without JE Sawyer's mod by the time you are level 50 (or even a fraction of that) it really doesn't matter what your character is because you can one shot most things in VATS.

 

It's not about whether something is an MMO/multiplayer experience or an offline experience. It's about creating an emergent, diverse-build-enabling system.

Edited April 15, 2019 by thelee

[Lord_Mord]

 

Why nerf ability, cause it is too much fun?

Because there are people who have that crazy idea that having the ability to cheat isn't the same as having fun.

 

And that's what an overpowered ability is: A cheat.

[MacesB]

You seem pretty set on your preference and that's okay. I strongly disagree, and that's okay too.

 

The real question is why you don't keep your games from patching if this is such a big deal for you? Steam has the option to opt out with like 3 clicks and there are numerous guides availiable on how to patch down to an older version if you downloaded a patch accidentally or reinstalled it. Might be worth looking into, for you.

 

I am reasonably sure there is a similar feature for other platforms as well.

[Boeroer]

 

Grab a Berserker/Beckoner and give him Grave Calling, enchant with Chilling Grave. Summon 6 skeletons that split into 12 (overall) after death.

Frenzy and become confused. Send the skeletons onto the enemy. Hit your skeleton in the back. It will die, creatig a Chillfog. That CHillfog will kill all other skeletons, each creating a Chillfog. All those dead skeletons will spawn two additional ones who immediately die, creating Chillfogs. This all takes les than 5 secs. You'll have 18 parallel Chillfogs going - each profiting from all the weapon's enchantments (Legendary and whatnot). Every encounter (except against frost immune foes and Megabosses) clears nearly instantly.

Adding A and B and C and D and E and F makes an OP combo!

I've learned that after playing the game 7 times and reading forums for months.

It has to be addressed by balance team ASAP!

I'm afraid you missed the point?

[Manveru123]

 

I don't think so. I've played the game from open beta until now and I really have trouble naming a wizard spell that was heavily nerfed. 

Arcane Veil, Llengrath's Displaced Image, Wall of Many Colors, missile spells. There was probably more, that's all I remember at the moment.

 

If you want to balance the game without upsetting players, do a positive rebalance by buffing weak and underused abilities instead of nerfing everything strong so it's as weak as everything else.

 

 

 

 

Why nerf ability, cause it is too much fun?

Because there are people who have that crazy idea that having the ability to cheat isn't the same as having fun.

 

And that's what an overpowered ability is: A cheat.

You have the ability to cheat. All you need to do is press one button to invoke a console. It's always available.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Manveru123

[Boeroer]

Would be cool if you described what the nerf actually was. Because I can't remember what really changed. It might be that is wasn't so severe. Or that the overall caster buff balanced that out pretty nicely.

 

I don't count fixing stuff that didn't work as intended as "nerfing" by the way. So for example fixing Wall of Draining so that you can't have multiple instances of it anymore isn't a nerf for me. It's a bugfix (becaue you couldn't have mutliple walls active - except Wall of Draining).

 

Strong ability nerfs I remember: Charge (was way too good though), Evasive Fire (was slighty overpowered but I don't think it had to be nerfed), Wounding Shot (same), most lashes like Lightning Strikes, FoD, Wildstrike, Spiritutal Weapons (were too good), Full Attacks in general (good nerf!). Devotions otF. Maybe more if I contemplated more about it.

And all the item nerfs of course.

 

Buffs I remember: new abilities (Hunter's Claw, Heartseeker and so on), casting speeds through the board, cipher focus generation, PEN softening in general, Two Handed weapons getting +1 PEN through the board, Monastic Unarmend Training, Firebrand...

 

So it's not the case that there is only nerfing and the weak stuff doesn't get touched at all. It's just so that not every buff the crowd calls for will get implemented. I understand that designers are cautious to buff too much - because then the other half of the crows goes wild with "PotD is too damn easy!!11!!1!"

 

We are doing a Deadfire Polishing Thread and Poll atm and there aren't so many things that need buffs actually. There are also some things that need a nerf. But all in all: not that much.

 

I think the perception of balancing is heavily influenced by the fact that players only tend to remember the nerf but not the buff.

 

You have the ability to cheat. All you need to do is press one button to invoke a console. It's always available.

That was not the point. The point was that some players like to play overpowered (be it through cheats or heavily overpowered items/abilites) while others (maybe the majority?) do not.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Boeroer

[Makumba666]

I understand there are people and always will be who love extremely challenging games - something when you die on every corner and even weakest enemies are as strong as hell. And to fight them you have zillions of useless abilities, which require tens of minute to finish one simple battle.  No, as you probably guessed I am not one of them. Having tonnes of useless abilities does not mean fun for me. And besides turning each damned battle into chess game is what I really hate. I prefer to spend my brain's horsepower on my work in rl, than on some stupid game. I am not against complex games, but at least their rules should be apparent - all formulas used to calculate damage or whatever should be known. But what we have here? Actually player has to perform damned tests to find out how one or another spell/skill actually works and how it is affected by different factors. Very often they work not as description says. So the only way to get information (except doing everything yourself apparently) is to study forums - and only then you can decide should you for example take damned smoke veil or not. And above that are game developers, which make things even worse - they change game rules and it is unclear does skill/spell hat worked in version 3.0 for example works same way in 4.1? You call this situation normal? I want to play a game - not  perform scientific study! Thats why I say they ruin everything. I understand many people here - They call what Obsidian does improvement and are ever thankful for that, but I am sure there are other people too, who like me hate when developers change game rules. 

And concerning fun Manveru123 said it best:

 

If you want to balance the game without upsetting players, do a positive rebalance by buffing weak and underused abilities instead of nerfing everything strong so it's as weak as everything else.

My thoughts exactly. 

 

Boeroer,

First I want tell you misunderstood me - I never said any spell/skill were made totally useless. Totally useless means something that does NOTHING. Of course they do something (damage, buf, debuf etc.) - but they became very weak and any sensible player would pick some other spell/skill. Thats what Obsidian do - if some spell is really useful, they immediately nerf it, because it may be too fun... and fun is what they avoid at any cost. You play game to forget rl for some time, to be somebody you are not... -  some ordinal guy with ordinal life. Obsidian wants you to play fantasy game... but not feel powerful, no - just be ordinal guy from fantasy world. If you win fight it surely must take at least 10 minutes (hours are better, of course) and then you will be happy. My exact problem with what Obsidian does is I am not a masochist. 

As for nerfed spells, Manveru123 already answered you. There many other spells and abilities that were nerfed. 

[Wormerine]

OP if you found game on launch I suggest switching to story mode. The balance on release was unacceptable. Playing on veteran I didn't have to pay attention to anything and my cipher was an unstoppable monster (pretty much every class was).

 

If you're like looking for "no-challenge" experience, then other difficulties have you covered.

[Manveru123]

 

You have the ability to cheat. All you need to do is press one button to invoke a console. It's always available.

That was not the point. The point was that some players like to play overpowered (be it through cheats or heavily overpowered items/abilites) while others (maybe the majority?) do not.

 

And both are viable approaches to the game. There is no reason to favour one over the other, which is what Obs is doing at the moment. Don't want to play overpowered things? Don't. Want to? Do. It's as simple as that. I'm really tired of people telling me how to enjoy my single-player experience :/

 

As for details about Wiz spells that you asked for: Arcane Veil got its duration cut by nearly half, Llengrath's Image provides nearly 3 times less Deflection than it did (and it's 30% hit to graze used to be 50%), Wall of Many Colors had all CC duration cut between 50% and 60% and damage from all sources by 40-45%. Missiles got nerfs to both penetration and damage; especially the first change was extremely severe if you play on higher difficulties. These are not bugfixes, these are heavy nerfs. I don't mind bugfixes. I mind ****ing up my character for the sake of useless balunz.

 

I'm actually following the Deadfire Polishing Thread. It's a really cool idea. But it kinda proves my point: the game is complete a YEAR after its release. That should not be acceptable.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that these nerfs would have less impact if we were actually "legally" allowed to do a FULL reset of our character, which includes sub-class (at least once per playthrough or something).

Edited April 16, 2019 by Manveru123