Politics and Statesmenship: A Forum Special Report

[Gromnir]

 

larry has become a little colorful as he ages, and is arguable now a bat crap crazy liberal (am stressing the crazy part and not the liberal... liberal is not a dirty word in Gromnir's lexicon), but even he cautions 'gainst impeachment.

 

vote trump out is the obvious best solution, but am admitted worried the democrats (and a few independents) is gonna screw up what should be an obvious choice. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[smjjames]

'Undetectable', is that autocorrect striking? heh. You think all of the Democrats are repulsive and unelectable anyway, so, that's not a very comparative bar.

 

Also, the number is like, 19 now? And Biden is announcing later in the week.

[Guard Dog]

'Undetectable', is that autocorrect striking? heh. You think all of the Democrats are repulsive and unelectable anyway, so, that's not a very comparative bar.

 

Also, the number is like, 19 now? And Biden is announcing later in the week.

The love of individual liberty does not abide in the democrat party. They are party of "mandatory", collectivism, and "for your own good". The party of Jefferson and Jackson has turned their backs on them forever. And that is a pity. 

[Boeroer]

Forced service is slavery. PERIOD.

You were not forced to do military service. You could do something else. Only important thing is that you spend one year working for your country or your fellow citizens. If you were sick or not fit to serve in the military you didn't have to do anything. Same if you were the third son (and the other two already served). 

 

What about community service? Being forces to work or face jail time? Slavery? 

 

What about compulsory education? We have it in Germany and many other european countries. Is that slavery? I mean you force the kids to go to school. 

 

What about being forced to pay taxes? Slavery?

 

Or is that all already SJW Nazism?

[Guard Dog]

 

Forced service is slavery. PERIOD.

You were not forced to do military service. You could do something else. Only important thing is that you spend one year working for your country or your fellow citizens. If you were sick or not fit to serve in the military you didn't have to do anything. Same if you were the third son (and the other two already served). 

 

What about community service? Being forces to work or face jail time? Slavery? 

 

What about compulsory education? We have it in Germany and many other european countries. Is that slavery? I mean you force the kids to go to school. 

 

What about being forced to pay taxes? Slavery?

 

Or is that all already SJW Nazism?

 

Taxation is theft. Legalized theft. Pay us or men with guns will kidnap you and lock you in a cage or maybe kill you. The draft is slavery. Legalized slavery. Serve us or men with guns will kidnap you and lock you in a cage or maybe kill you. This "compulsory" civil service that is being suggested is the same thing. The word compulsory is incompatible with liberty. It is incompatible with freedom. Now, in order to live in a functioning society we all have to accept some limitations on liberty. So it really becomes a question of where that line is. For me that line ends somewhere well before forced servitude.

 

Having served in the military during wartime and knowing many Vietnam vets from a practical matter conscription is a terrible idea. It leads to a demoralized and all around ineffective military. Military service is not easy. Combat service is even harder. You have to WANT to be there. If the manpower of the US Military is insufficient to fight some new war the politicians feel like starting perhaps that is a war that should not be fought. In times of crisis Americans have voluntarily responded even when there was a draft. After 9-11, after Pearl Harbor, hell even after Fort Sumter there were large jumps in voluntary enlistments. I enlisted in 1989. We were at peace then but I knew what I was signing up for and was willing to do it. Gifted1 & Shady Sands right here on this board did the same among others. Heck Shady enlisted after 9-11 IIRC so there was almost no doubt in his mind where he was going. That is the kind of man you WANT in the military. Not someone who is there because the other alternative was prison. 

 

As for this "civil service" no one in this country owes a goddamned thing to anyone else that they are not willing to give. They are going to take your money, no way around that. But they are not going to take your time, you presence, away from where you want to be. It all sounds like a bunch of BS to me that charity groups like Habitat for Humanity (a group I support and have worked with in the past) do a much better job of. But if it's voluntary this government run boondoggle, then it will be tolerable.

[smjjames]

Taxes in some form have been around since, well, civilization, how else is the government going to make revenue? Oppressive taxation is still oppressive though.

 

Anyways, in the curiosity of trying to find out what hes trying to solve or what his reasoning is for it, I tried searching his candidacy page, which doesn't even have an issues page yet, the only source I can find is from the wiki page which links an MSNBC interview as the source. Still looking at the vid atm though.

[Boeroer]

Actually the people who did "forced" military service would not get send into war unless absolutely necessary (never happened so far). It was just a training and afterwards you could go straight to reserve if you wished to. You could also opt for becoming a "professional" soldier but that was totally up to you.

 

As I said the main idea was to have a cross section of the whole society in the military and not only people who feel drawn to military service. This makes it a lot harder for the whole army to drift to the far left or far right and prevents extremism of all sorts. 

 

As for this "civil service" no one in this country owes a goddamned thing to anyone else that they are not willing to give.

 

That sounds like a very naive statement.

[ShadySands]

My only problem with an all volunteer service is that is has been leading us into developing a kind of warrior caste. The greater population has no investment in the military and therefore less interest in how they are used.

[smjjames]

Looked at the wiki source (video if you want to look, starts at about the 7:55 mark https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/buttigieg-we-need-generational-change-in-politics-1461546563622 ) and it appears to be in response to a question that was meant to be about racial divisions and healing the 'loss of community'. It sounds to me like an attempt to apply lessions he learned in the military to civillian life in a misguided way rather than any sort of draft thing.

 

I get what he's saying about rebuilding trust and community and stuff, but his idea isn't a great one and can't be applied to those outside an age bracket I've read about somewhere but may be another candidates idea, plus it doesn't really help with community outside the military.

[smjjames]

Doublepost because forum: Aha, I found where I was thinking of a similar one from: https://www.marianne2020.com/issues/national-service It's a heck of a lot more fleshed out than Buttigeigs comment, but I wouldn't be surprised if he cribbed it from Williamson's page. The page on Williamsons site implies that it's voluntary, but it doesn't explictly say whether it's mandatory or volunteer.

 

@Boeroer: It may not have happened in Romania (since WWII anyway), but in the US, draftees were definetly sent to fight in Vietnam.

Edited April 20, 2019 by smjjames

[majestic]

At the risk of offending someone - with really no offense intended, just some good ol' fun - I think Buttigieg is probably the best name for a gay guy ever.

[213374U]

It leads to a demoralized and all around ineffective military.

So what you're saying is... it's actually a very good idea? I wonder how many countries wouldn't be veritable ****holes today if the US military wasn't so effective.

 

As for "wanting" to be there, it'd be interesting to know how many people who enlist want to be thrown into a war zone, as opposed to how many would rather just have a stable job with literally zero experience required, affordable tuition rates and the rest of the perks that come with wearing the uniform.

[Volourn]

"Taxes in some form have been around since, well, civilization, how else is the government going to make revenue? Oppressive taxation is still oppressive though."

 

taxes are done by gov't who have power who threaten to murder, rape, and inprison you if you don't pay up. Gov't by their very nature are evil and self serving. It is why politicians are not very popular because the nature of their work requires them to do stuff. It is also why most of them use the 'think of the children' or the 'greater good' to get the saps to go along with what they want to do. It doesn't matter what bullcrap the politician spews. there is not one politician who is true 'pro freedom'.

 

 

In fact, 99% of people who claim to be pro freedom are not really pro freedom. They only want to dow aht they want to do but if someone else wants to dos oemthing they don't like they want it banned.

 

20 years ago it was republicans like that scumbag lawyer who wanted entertainment banned or censored. Now, the demcoratsa re joining in the fight.

 

Also, dems/libs are whining about how the right are anti free speech/anti reporters but theya re the ones who want to control what you can say on the internet. LMAO

 

 

P.S. Logically speaking, I'm not 100% against taxes since they can be used to help everyone and protect the country from outsiders but gov't is notorious for wasting money. Also, while most people tend to get  a few % raise, gov't employees especially the big wigs tend to get ridiculous % raises. And, it doesn't matter which party.

 

Forcing someone to join the army  is evil.  Forcing someone to do work for free or work they don't want to do is by definition is slavery. PERIOD. You can try to  make it all sound noble but that is exactly what it is.

 

 

I'm not against defending family, friends, or even fellow country men/women but by my choice not under threat of murder.

[BruceVC]

Are those naturally born in the country forced to take part to gain citizenship like a certain book/movie? Than no. But, someone from another country that is fine. It is voluntary in a country doesn't owe 'outsiders' citizenship or anything, imo.

volo your analogy isn't accurate or a fair comparison, obviously if you born in a country you are already a citizen...thats the normal and perfectly  acceptable way of what defines  citizenship in any country

 

What we talking about is the reality of countries like the USA ( and SA in our own context) where a country is inundated with people trying to become citizens. You cannot make everyone who just arrives a citizen and compulsory military service demonstrates a commitment to that country. Also you will or can gain important life skills that hopefully will help you in your career going forward after military service 

 

It is simply unsustainable to absorb everyone and then they can become a major burden on resources and welfare systems. You need to give something back to become a citizen, surly you can see this?

 

Canada doesnt have this problem because of the horrendously bad weather..very few people want to immigrate to Canada...lets be honest ...lest be honest 

[smjjames]

 

Are those naturally born in the country forced to take part to gain citizenship like a certain book/movie? Than no. But, someone from another country that is fine. It is voluntary in a country doesn't owe 'outsiders' citizenship or anything, imo.

volo your analogy isn't accurate or a fair comparison, obviously if you born in a country you are already a citizen...thats the normal and perfectly  acceptable way of what defines  citizenship in any country

 

What we talking about is the reality of countries like the USA ( and SA in our own context) where a country is inundated with people trying to become citizens. You cannot make everyone who just arrives a citizen and compulsory military service demonstrates a commitment to that country. Also you will or can gain important life skills that hopefully will help you in your career going forward after military service 

 

It is simply unsustainable to absorb everyone and then they can become a major burden on resources and welfare systems. You need to give something back to become a citizen, surly you can see this?

 

Canada doesnt have this problem because of the horrendously bad weather..very few people want to immigrate to Canada...lets be honest ...lest be honest 

 

 

I'd be against compulsory military service for immigrants because we shouldn't treat them like cannon fodder. It may not be such an issue in a country like South Africa, but for a country like the US with a military that operates all over the place, treating immigrants like cannon fodder isn't an image we should want.

 

Yes, I know armies around the world and in history have been plenty immigrant heavy, but just because we can treat them like cannon fodder doesn't mean we should.

Edited April 20, 2019 by smjjames

[Boeroer]

@Boeroer: It may not have happened in Romania (since WWII anyway), but in the US, draftees were definetly sent to fight in Vietnam.

I have no idea about Romania's military history. I'm German and only live here temporarily because of work.

[smjjames]

 

@Boeroer: It may not have happened in Romania (since WWII anyway), but in the US, draftees were definetly sent to fight in Vietnam.

I have no idea about Romania's military history. I'm German and only live here temporarily because of work.

 

 

I initially had Germany there but wasn't sure, so I looked at the location (yeah, I know, it can easily be fake) and changed it to Romania. So, just confusion on my part.

Edited April 20, 2019 by smjjames

[majestic]

I have no idea about Romania's military history. I'm German and only live here temporarily because of work.

 

Careful lest Volo calls you a literal Nazi. :>

 

I think this thread proves that sci-fi and fantasy stories say that time is cyclical and whatever happened has happened before... and will happen again. I'm pretty sure we had this type of discussion before. The participants are different. Most of the time. Volo being the only constant. Except I have no idea why he sticks around in Canada where tax evasion and draft dodging apparently is punishable by death.

[Boeroer]

Forcing someone to join the army is evil.

 

Well you weren't forced to join the army.

 

Forcing someone to do work for free or work they don't want to do is by definition is slavery.

Who said it was for free? I got paid.

 

And you could choose what you wanted to do. Plenty of options and you could apply for lots of stuff as I said.

 

And by whose definition is it slavery. Yours? That's not really reliable source material. Because dubious reputation and so on...

 

The PERIOD doesn't seem to work - you are still talking about it. Might as well stop shouting PERIOD. Unless it's a periodic period of course...

Edited April 20, 2019 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

 

I have no idea about Romania's military history. I'm German and only live here temporarily because of work.

Careful lest Volo calls you a literal Nazi. :>

Since he even seems to call Mother Theresa a nazi that doesn't seem to mean much, does it?

 

I'm sure I'm already a SJW Nazi because I think questioning taxes in general and assuming every politician to be evil is extremely silly.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Boeroer

[BruceVC]

 

It leads to a demoralized and all around ineffective military.

So what you're saying is... it's actually a very good idea? I wonder how many countries wouldn't be veritable ****holes today if the US military wasn't so effective.

 

 

You cant be serious, the USA is the foundation of Western ideology due to its important and positive influence on what  Democracy intrinsically stands ....this works and delivers overall sustainable, robust economies and happy citizens. Of course nothing is perfect so we must always improve or address valid societal  issues like perceived or real economic  inequality and issues like improved public healthcare 

 

But in order to preserve the importance of Western ideology ( and remember this is a good thing ) you need a strong military to ensure that  dictatorships and flawed alternative ideologies dont undermine what we know works and delivers a better world and quality of life for all of mankind 

 

Now I imagine you dont like my usage of " Western ideology "  but as Neil Ferguson explains in his book Civilization what I mean by this is the core principles of what defines  " Western ideology " , these  are in summary

 

1. Governments elected by the people, accountable to the people 
2. Effective governments that maintain institutions  
3. Governments that believe in the rule of law and order and are aligned to Constitutions
4. The free market must primarily drive the economy but answerable to the laws of the land 

 

What is wrong with any of these 4 points, can you honestly critique them in a fair way?  

 

Please read this book if you want to understand my point in greater detail and explanation, it should appeal and resonate with your intellectualism 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Civilization-West-Rest-Niall-Ferguson/dp/0143122061

 

If you really disagree with what the West stands for then you are suggesting the Cold War should have been won by the Soviet Bloc and I would battle to believe the veracity of that view considering the numerous issues around traditional Communism\Socialism ?

[BruceVC]

 

 

Are those naturally born in the country forced to take part to gain citizenship like a certain book/movie? Than no. But, someone from another country that is fine. It is voluntary in a country doesn't owe 'outsiders' citizenship or anything, imo.

volo your analogy isn't accurate or a fair comparison, obviously if you born in a country you are already a citizen...thats the normal and perfectly  acceptable way of what defines  citizenship in any country

 

What we talking about is the reality of countries like the USA ( and SA in our own context) where a country is inundated with people trying to become citizens. You cannot make everyone who just arrives a citizen and compulsory military service demonstrates a commitment to that country. Also you will or can gain important life skills that hopefully will help you in your career going forward after military service 

 

It is simply unsustainable to absorb everyone and then they can become a major burden on resources and welfare systems. You need to give something back to become a citizen, surly you can see this?

 

Canada doesnt have this problem because of the horrendously bad weather..very few people want to immigrate to Canada...lets be honest ...lest be honest 

 

 

I'd be against compulsory military service for immigrants because we shouldn't treat them like cannon fodder. It may not be such an issue in a country like South Africa, but for a country like the US with a military that operates all over the place, treating immigrants like cannon fodder isn't an image we should want.

 

Yes, I know armies around the world and in history have been plenty immigrant heavy, but just because we can treat them like cannon fodder doesn't mean we should.

 

I understand your concern but I am not suggesting we treat immigrants like cannon fodder. They would be part of the normal military of a country like the USA and would receive the same rights and protections as any normal soldier. So it would be normal military conditions but yes there is always the risk of war and someone being killed but thats the same risk any soldier faces and understands 

[smjjames]

@BruceVC: Doesn't this bit from the exerpt 'How did the West overtake its Eastern rivals? And has the zenith of Western power now passed? Acclaimed historian Niall Ferguson argues that beginning in the fifteenth century, the West developed six powerful new concepts, or “killer applications”—competition, science, the rule of law, modern medicine, consumerism, and the work ethic—that the Rest lacked, allowing it to surge past all other competitors.' sound really eliteist to you? Not to mention colonial and possibly a bit racist, particularily the work ethic bit. Whether or not it's truly representative of the book, I don't know, but it sounds more like someone from the turn of the 20th rather than early 21st century.

 

I took numbers guy's (as I see him nicknamed sometimes around here, if he doesn't mind it) criticism as criticising how it was used rather than a criticsm of the four points. Use a tool the wrong way or in an ineffective way, even the best tool in the universe is going to cause issues.

Edited April 20, 2019 by smjjames

[Guard Dog]

 

Forcing someone to join the army is evil.

Well you weren't forced to join the army.

 

Forcing someone to do work for free or work they don't want to do is by definition is slavery.

Who said it was for free? I got paid.

 

And you could choose what you wanted to do. Plenty of options and you could apply for lots of stuff as I said.

 

And by whose definition is it slavery. Yours? That's not really reliable source material. Because dubious reputation and so on...

 

The PERIOD doesn't seem to work - you are still talking about it. Might as well stop shouting PERIOD. Unless it's a periodic period of course...

 

   Arguing with Volo is a suicide mission!

[Guard Dog]

 

It leads to a demoralized and all around ineffective military.

So what you're saying is... it's actually a very good idea? I wonder how many countries wouldn't be veritable ****holes today if the US military wasn't so effective.

 

As for "wanting" to be there, it'd be interesting to know how many people who enlist want to be thrown into a war zone, as opposed to how many would rather just have a stable job with literally zero experience required, affordable tuition rates and the rest of the perks that come with wearing the uniform.

 

  An incompetent military makes a bigger mess of things. If they have their s--t together they will screw up a s--thole in far less time.  As for your second point anyone who signs up knows there is a risk. Especially the ones who join during wartime. I had been in the Corps a year and a half when Iraq invaded Kuwait. when i joined the US had not been in any major conflicts in nearly 15 years. Small stuff like Grenada were to be expected. When Desert Shield started and we were prepping to deploy I was nervous as hell but a little excited too.  

 

Of course had I any inkling where I would actually end up I guess I wouldn't have been. But your point is spot on mostly. I didn't join to go fight, I joined to go to college. And while I was happy to do my part for the Red White and Blue it wasn't my primary motivation. Of course, no general ever woke up an said "what the hell we'll just go invade somebody today". The real blood is on the hands of the politicians who start fights. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Guard Dog