Deadfire Polishing Poll

[Elric Galad]

@Boeroer

 

Buffs :

 

1) Transmuter : I wasn’t specifically referring to giving Form of the Reckless Brute 0% Recovery, but to have its overall level of power close to Spiritshift.

However, I checked a bit Fearsome Brute stats :

- 7 base armor, +100% recovery, +2 vs crush, -2 vs slash (Better than a Medium armor, except for Recovery of course)

- +4 MIG, +2 CON, -4 INT, -2 DEX, +1 Engagement- +

- 13-25 base damages, 6 PEN crush/pierce, attack/recovery 1.0/4.0, no Modal, 1-handed. It's basically comparable to a sword, a tad bit slower with higher base damages. Overall it's only 12% more DPS than a sword.

 

Even with 0% Recovery, Form of the Fearsome Brute would not be better than Spiritshift (a bit more DPS except vs cat Form, a bit less armor).

My proposition is the following :

- Set PEN to 7 and attack speed to 0.7s/4.0s, so it would do around 19% more base DPS than a sword with +1PEN but no modal.

- Set Recovery to +20%. Ogre wears an armor so 0% recovery won't be suitable. 

- Set to +3 Engagement limit. This is the trick : better to give Ogre something Unique than raw power. That much Engagements is hard to get for non-fighters and non-barbarians.

Overall this would give Form a level of Power comparable to Spiritshift without Wildstrike and the various Forms bonus, but with a lots of Engagement, spell casting disabled and long duration. So it would be nice early game and situationally useful later.

 

Conjurer : Familiar gives a +1 stackable general PL as well as other random bonuses, which is great enough IMHO. However, I would advocate giving familiar nearly insta-cast (as Ghostheart pet) or fast cast (3s, no recovery ?) so it would be more easy to use.

 

2) The reason why I was specifically advocating for Corpse Eater PL bonus is because it was the easiest change. Everybody can eat Kith meat. If you give a generic PL bonus (or any other bonus except Corpse Eater PL), you have to find a way to prevent its application on other classes, which I thought would add some difficulty to the actual modding.

It would also give a “Bellower feeling” to Corpse Eater, which sounded good IMHO.

 

3) What I like about Debonaire is that even if the class is designed for Kith encounters, it still has some feats (especially hit to graze conversion) against non-Kiths. Debonaire is arguably worse against non kiths, but not strictly worse.
(I remember you even pointed it in another thread)
For me, it is a good design to have this kind of minor advantage that applies, so you don’t feel totally gimped for half of the encounter. You still get this little something  

 

Also I admit I don’t like the randomness of spell resistance, especially with beneficial effect  . Nobody liked it for BG1’s Viconia.
Side-note about randomness : What if Wild Mind became a Modal ?  

 

AoE Spell Disruption : why not, but spellcasters don’t usually clump in tiny packs so I don’t really know if the buff would be so great.

 

I have also seen a Carnage-applied beneficial effect reduction from another mod proposal about Mage Slayer which I also found very tempting   (especially because it would apply to non-spellcasters… cough cough fighters).

 

4) Yeah, I think that +1 PEN is good enough to justify the subclass, but still feel a bit limited compared to… let’s say Devoted.

That’s why my suggestion was more about unique “tactical” advantage than raw power. Raw power is currently... Okayish ? 

 

 

Nerf :

 

1) Not sure about the precise way to nerf Troub. I only suggested the easiest one for modders.

Just a comment : More starting phrases isn’t actually more ressources since all invocations cost more. The “+1 Phrase trick” is mostly applicable to Skald and Beckoner whose penalty doesn’t apply to all Invocations.

“+1 Phrase” SC lvl 20 Troubadour is able to cast 1 Dragon or 2 Shield Cracks

“+2 Phrases” SC lvl 20 Troubadour woud be able cast 1 Dragon or 1,8 Shield Cracks

 

But 4s Brisk Recitation may be better indeed. It is probably the most OP of the 2 modes of the troubadour. Even with this, I feel that both modes could have been passive effects for 2 different chanter subclasses. The free switchability makes Troubadour even better. I wouldn’t mind a small passive Recovery penalty (10% ?) for the troubadour to compensate for the added flexibility. This would reflect that Troubadour is a Chanter "more dedicated to chanting" than other chanters.

=> So for me it would be : 4s Brisk Recitation, +10% passive universal recovery

EDIT : Thinking twice, this recovery penalty feels a bit unnecessary.

 

 2) Agreed

 3) Agreed

Edited June 24, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

2) - good point about kith meat.

 

 

Note to self: fix Soul Annihilation not triggering Cleaving Stance's Full Attack on kill.

[Guest ----]

What about adding a prejudicial effect to the kith meat food, and make Corpse-Eater immune to it?

 

[Heukalyptus]

A permanent (until next rest) Sickened and Shaken status effects seems fitting

[Boeroer]

I would also like to buff Concelhaut's Draining Touch. Currently it disappears after the first successful hit/crit. Which is way too weak. Why would you spend a spell use for that?

My suggestion would be to either give it a number of hits before it disappears or a rel. short duration. It is a powerful weapon after all, but only one hit? Nah...

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, Heukalyptus said:

A permanent (until next rest) Sickened and Shaken status effects seems fitting

Sicken and Shaken are easy to avoid. Resistance and Inspiration would remove them permanently.

In addition, adding a Positive effect (corpse eater only) or negative effect (non corpse eater only) would be about the same for modding effort.

[Waski]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I would also like to buff Concelhaut's Draining Touch. Currently it disappears after the first successful hit/crit. Which is way too weak. Why would you spend a spell use for that?

My suggestion would be to either give it a number of hits before it disappears or a rel. short duration. It is a powerful weapon after all, but only one hit? Nah...

In vanila game Concelhaut's Draining Touch works perfectly well an is approved by Cheesemancers Guild as first class weapon so if mod don't change a  lot buff is unnecessary.

 

Just imagine spellblade..

[Boeroer]

That's a combo I showed right after release and I used it with a solo Geomancer+Willbreaker.

My suggestion wouldn't change a thing about that particular "cheese". The phantom gets all your items, including summoned ones - and durations are attached to your character, not the summoned weapon. So those durations don't get translated to the phantom. It keeps the weapons it came with until it dies or disappears.

The downside is that Essential Phantom has none of your abilities. It hits single targets hard with Draining Touch but it's still a very unoptimized melee summon. Also I would rate Spirit Lance on a Phantom even higher. Or Kalakoth's Minor Blights (burn - doesn't cycle on a Phantom) with Ring of Focused Flame and Magran's Favor in offhand - and Ring of the Marksman.

Anyway - my suggestion would mean that a character who doesn't want to use the phantom cheese still gets acceptable value out of casting Draining Touch. Because when you use it as it is intended it's just too bad. Even if you use it (as I did) as an Assassin/Bloodmage with Backstab from invisibility. And that's the most effective use I can think of. Does good dmg then but still not that much more as you could do with Cromoprismatic Staff or Dragon's Dowry. And only once. And you spend a whole spell use...

Like Kalakoth's Sunless Grasp which we also buffed in the Community Patch because it was so bad compared to most other spells of that power level.

Seriously: who uses Draining Touch (besides phantom cheese) on their wizards? I bet nobody...

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

1. I found an old thread about Draining Touch recovery

...and i personally agreed to change recovery to 0 sec. for consistency with other Wizard's summoned weapons.

2. Another old thread:

So i suggest to add an Acid keyword to weapon attack entry ( in attacks. gamedatabundle).

I not sure about other changes (maybe it's worth to increase healing rate), but these two are suggest itself.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

If it wouldn't disappear after one hit it wouldn't need 0 recovery (would be my argument).

The reason why it's so bad is mostly based on its "duration" of one single hit/crit.

If you compare the casting cost, casting time and outcome (damage, draining, sickening) with those of other spells of that power level you will see that it's inferior. That's why nobody who doesn't plan to use it on a phantom bothers with it.

[Boeroer]

I mean it's in the same PL as Fireball, Noxious Burst, Kalakoth's Minor Blights (!), Alacrity and so on.

I like that it was changed from a touch spell in PoE to a summoned weapon in Deadfire. But disappearance after one successful hit...?

The pro is - of course - that you can't "waste" it's use. It won't go away unless you hit. No "oh shucks" when missing a spell.

But that's really it... I don't know. All in all very lame still. 

[Phenomenum]

1 hour ago, Boeroer said:

The reason why it's so bad is mostly based on its "duration" of one single hit/crit.

It's designed as single target spell. Implementation trough weapon is just a matter of choice (by design). I think.

It designed less for damage, but more for healing + debuff. Do you remember if all damage dealt returns to caster as health? Or only certain % of damage?

[ocelotter]

13 minutes ago, Phenomenum said:

It's designed as single target spell. Implementation trough weapon is just a matter of choice (by design). I think.

It designed less for damage, but more for healing + debuff. Do you remember if all damage dealt returns to caster as health? Or only certain % of damage?

I just checked and it's 20%, just like Concelhaut's Parasitic Quarterstaff. It's kind of a cool spell; requires the Wizard to enter melee, targets Will(!) instead of Deflection, and is a source of single target damage and self healing. But as it stands right now you're far better off just summoning the staff, which is a level one spell with higher penetration and a substantial duration.

If it were me, I think I'd try increasing the life steal to 100% of damage dealt and making the damage type Raw instead of Corrode (it targets Will after all). Also, I would remove the interaction with Essential/Substantial Phantom, which is clearly just an unintended side effect that can't really persist with an interesting version of this spell.

Just extending the duration to a few more attacks keeps it much too similar to the staff, in my opinion.

Edited June 28, 2019 by ocelotter

[Phenomenum]

41 minutes ago, ocelotter said:

If it were me, I think I'd try increasing the life steal to 100% of damage dealt

Indeed.

42 minutes ago, ocelotter said:

making the damage type Raw instead of Corrode

I see no sense

43 minutes ago, ocelotter said:

Also, I would remove the interaction with Essential/Substantial Phantom, which is clearly just an unintended side effect

Can't do, sorry.

[Elric Galad]

What would you think about adding Adra Ban to a merchant inventory ?

I think it is the only non-buyable component.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

I wouldn't change the actual values of the Draining Touch Weapon. I think if you'd just change the spell's "duration" from 1hit/crit-->dispelled to 3hits/crits-->dispelled that would be a "fix" that:

a) doesn't touch the phantom cheese at all (doesn't make it any cheesier - while raising the draining to 100% would make the phantom nearly unkillable).

b) would make me at least consider to take this spell - even though it would still be worse than Corrosive Siphon (PL2) or Parasitic Staff (PL1). Because a graze doesn't remove it you could get lucky and land a few more grazes in between the hits until it gets dispelled. That would be nice and cool for a melee oriented wizard or wizard/something. For everybody else it would still be meh. Which would be ok for me.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

Good point about unkillable phantom.

 

[Powerotti]

What do you think about reducing quick switch talent to 1sec, allow it to all non caster classes (barb, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue), and increase black jacket recovery reduction to 1,5sec? This way more builds, that use more than one weapon set, would benefit and black jacket still be unique, reducing switching recovery completly.

[Purudaya]

If I could suggest one other possible nerf that I haven't seen yet, it would be the rogue's Persistent Distraction. It makes sense that it removes the requirement to set up sneak attacks against engaged enemies, but - because it applies two afflictions - it removes the requirement to set up deathblows as well. IMO Persistent Distraction should only apply 1 affliction (probably flanked) so that rogues still have to source another affliction to make deathblows trigger. 

As it stands, once melee players hit PL 4 they don't really have to think about conditions for sneak attacks or deathblows ever again, which removes a lot of the strategy for the class. I play a lot of rogue multis and this has bothered me since 1.0. Just an idea

[Phenomenum]

On 6/29/2019 at 12:47 PM, Powerotti said:

What do you think about reducing quick switch talent to 1sec, allow it to all non caster classes (barb, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue), and increase black jacket recovery reduction to 1,5sec? This way more builds, that use more than one weapon set, would benefit and black jacket still be unique, reducing switching recovery completly.

 

6 hours ago, Purudaya said:

If I could suggest one other possible nerf that I haven't seen yet, it would be the rogue's Persistent Distraction. It makes sense that it removes the requirement to set up sneak attacks against engaged enemies, but - because it applies two afflictions - it removes the requirement to set up deathblows as well. IMO Persistent Distraction should only apply 1 affliction (probably flanked) so that rogues still have to source another affliction to make deathblows trigger. 

I prefer do not touch anything.

 

[Ivanfyodorovich]

Hi all - I'm loving playing with the community patch. It's creating new opportunities for build diversity and an overall more consistent and enjoyable play through. Thanks again!

I've noticed missing strings quite a bit, especially in character creation (low priority), but a few continue on into the talent screen, or even when right clicking abilities tosee the details. For example, Arcane Archer has a passive that doesn't have any text in any window, only missing string note. Perhaps it's just a placeholder for something? 

Is there interest in compiling a list of these to fix, or are they fine as they are?

[Phenomenum]

46 minutes ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

s there interest in compiling a list of these to fix, or are they fine as they are?

Yes. If you can provide screenshots, it will be even better.

[ocelotter]

Is Chain Lightning supposed to be unable to bounce back to targets it's already hit once? It seems like other bounce spells (e.g. Minoletta's Bounding Missiles) can bounce back, but I can't get CL to do so. It's a shame, because being able to hit a target several times seemed like the main reason to cast it.

Edit: I suspect this is a bug, or maybe it's something specifically wrong with my game that could be fixed somehow. In attacks.gamedatabundle, "Chain_Lightning_Ranged" has the following component:

"BounceData": {
            "Bounces": 4,
            "Multiplier": 0.9,
            "Range": 7,
            "InRangeOrder": "true",
            "NoRepeatTargets": "false",
            "AlwaysBounceAtEnemies": "true",
            "Delay": 0,
            "NeverBounce": "false"
          },

Meanwhile, "Minolettas_Bounding_Missiles_Ranged" has the following:

"BounceData": {
            "Bounces": 2,
            "Multiplier": 1.2,
            "Range": 2,
            "InRangeOrder": "false",
            "NoRepeatTargets": "false",
            "AlwaysBounceAtEnemies": "true",
            "Delay": 0,
            "NeverBounce": "false"

So I think CL is supposed to be able to bounce back to targets already hit once ("NoRepeatTargets": "false"), but perhaps is unable to do so because it has to hit targets in range order ("InRangeOrder": "true").

 

Edit2: assuming you consider this behavior unintentional, the following code "fixes" this "InRangeOrder": "true", "NoRepeatTargets": "false"" issue in all the spots I found it by removing the range order requirement:

Spoiler

{
	"GameDataObjects": [
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
			"DebugName": "Chain_Lightning_Ranged",
			"ID": "49a61f8c-cf41-46a5-b034-e2c74e1d822e",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"BounceData": {
						"Bounces": 4,
						"Multiplier": 0.9,
						"Range": 7,
						"InRangeOrder": "false",
						"NoRepeatTargets": "false",
						"AlwaysBounceAtEnemies": "true",
						"Delay": 0,
						"NeverBounce": "false"
				    }
				}
			]
		},
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
			"DebugName": "Chain_Lightning_Stormspeaker_Ranged",
			"ID": "d5d99d4b-6db3-4352-abdd-8434ddd5b7bb",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"BounceData": {
						"Bounces": 4,
						"Multiplier": 0.9,
						"Range": 7,
						"InRangeOrder": "false",
						"NoRepeatTargets": "false",
						"AlwaysBounceAtEnemies": "true",
						"Delay": 0,
						"NeverBounce": "false"
					}
				}
			]
		},
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
			"DebugName": "Scroll_of_chain_lightning_Ranged",
			"ID": "252acdbb-eb15-4815-8a9e-0f0a57aed610",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"BounceData": {
						"Bounces": 4,
						"Multiplier": 0.9,
						"Range": 7,
						"InRangeOrder": "false",
						"NoRepeatTargets": "false",
						"AlwaysBounceAtEnemies": "true",
						"Delay": 0,
						"NeverBounce": "false"
					}
				}
			]
		},
		{
			"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackRangedGameData, Assembly-CSharp",
			"DebugName": "Woven_waves_Ranged",
			"ID": "6a35ea4f-f432-4e39-abb8-017e3f9950c7",
			"Components": [
				{
					"$type": "Game.GameData.AttackBaseComponent, Assembly-CSharp",
					"BounceData": {
						"Bounces": 2,
						"Multiplier": 0.5,
						"Range": 3,
						"InRangeOrder": "false",
						"NoRepeatTargets": "false",
						"AlwaysBounceAtEnemies": "true",
						"Delay": 0.5,
						"NeverBounce": "false"
					}
				}
			]
		}
	]
}

 

Only tested it on the Wizard's version of Chain Lightning though.

Edited July 5, 2019 by ocelotter

[Hoo]

Oh, I've noticed this thread now because I've been leaving PoE II several months ago. Is this mod still ongoing for further updates, or is the latest release final version? May I suggest a few things related to Druids?

[Phenomenum]

20 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Oh, I've noticed this thread now because I've been leaving PoE II several months ago. Is this mod still ongoing for further updates, or is the latest release final version? May I suggest a few things related to Druids?

Sure)