The Turn-Based Combat Tactics, Strategies, and Builds Thread

[QuiteGoneJin]

I think it wont feel balanced or even moderately fleshed out till faster characters can attack more then once per round. Sad, really wanted to get into things right away. Also the empty box symbol, cast time always takes 2 rounds to cast? Or would it be better if I had really high dex?

[masterty66]

Can anybody test how tank engagement work when enemy tries to move around in melee distance. Will engagement from your tank trigger as enemy tries to move past him/her?

 

I haven't been able to confirm one way or the other. I have noticed enemies getting attacks of opportunity when I break engagement so that's definitely a thing.

[Saito Hikari]

I want to say that something feels wonky about accuracy in turn-based. Even in normal mode, I've barely seen any critical hits from a main character that has 20 perception, and a lot of attacks whiff at a degree that I don't recall seeing in veteran RTwP. I'm not sure if accuracy calculation was adjusted for TB or if enemies were given higher defenses, but it's making the unoptimized companions feel even worse to use.

 

Then again this might be some kind of confirmation bias happening and I never paid enough attention in RTwP.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Saito Hikari

[thelee]

Then again this might be some kind of confirmation bias happening and I never paid enough attention in RTwP.

 

Almost certainly this.

 

A bajillion things are going on in RTwP so you probably aren't paying attention, whereas I submit that in TB you are basically paying attention to every single attack.

 

Also people are bad at intuitively understanding odds. Not trying to turn this into politics, but this happened with the US elections in 2016 where people interpreted the 66% some odd chance of Clinton winning on 538.com as a "sure thing" when having Trump win one out of three times was actually very very possible (anyone who plays D&D should hopefully have an intuitive understanding of how frequently a 1 out of 3 outcome can actually come up). Similarly, seeing "75%" above an enemy's head might seem like a lot, but really isn't, especially now that 75% includes graze chance (which some abilities don't care about). You still miss one out of every four hits (and you'll graze another one out of every four hits), which comes up a lot.

Edited January 25, 2019 by thelee

[TheMetaphysician]

I think it wont feel balanced or even moderately fleshed out till faster characters can attack more then once per round. Sad, really wanted to get into things right away. Also the empty box symbol, cast time always takes 2 rounds to cast? Or would it be better if I had really high dex?

 

See, I'm not sure about this. It certainly makes turn-based mode different -- attack speed stuff is overall less valuable, and certainly valuable in different ways, than in the base game. But balanced differently is not the same thing as unbalanced. You just have to think differently about the strategy. Instead of being an automatic pick every time, you might pass on Armored Grace. You might wear more heavy armor (which often goes under-emphasized in the base game). You might actually want to use the medium shield modal -- I'm happy about that!

[Baldiedash]

I just tried the turn based version, and I have to say it feels a bit wonky. That might be just coming from RTwP screwing with my senses a bit, but I do have some experience with other turn based systems, and it still feels a bit off. I think the most trouble I had was with casting times. To my recollection in other turn based systems the casting mostly gets done during the action phase, in Deadfire only the quick-fire spells do, so it feels as if my aim is off. In a real time system you can predict -- to some degree -- the movement of all the targets, but since the casting gets resolved after the targets move (in the turn based variant) it feels difficult to predict who will be where when. This might not be an issue if you lock down all you targets quickly, but there is certainly a different order to things.

 

Another thing is spamming powers like a Cipher's Mind Blades: with a speed freak build you could get some serious casting done (say one cast every two seconds, for arguments sake), but in the initiative turn based system we have at the moment the quickest you can cast is one action (4 initiative, for arguments sake), if one second would be one initiative then that would be double the casting speed, at least. I haven't tested enough to fully get the mechanics of initiative and rounds. There might be a way to cast more often depending on how initiative works, if, for instance, you have two initiative and you get placed higher in the round to cast again i.e you get an action every two initiative, and a four initiative character gets an action every four, then the spamming would happen again. It might be a balance issue, or that I have misunderstood the mechanics, which is entirely possible, but this might be a concern as well.

 

There seem to be a slight bias toward the martial, melee and ranged, in comparison with the former system. That might just be a difference rather than a balance issue as such, since there seems to have been a bias toward spell casters in the other.

[thelee]

I just tried the turn based version, and I have to say it feels a bit wonky. That might be just coming from RTwP screwing with my senses a bit, but I do have some experience with other turn based systems, and it still feels a bit off. I think the most trouble I had was with casting times. To my recollection in other turn based systems the casting mostly gets done during the action phase, in Deadfire only the quick-fire spells do, so it feels as if my aim is off. In a real time system you can predict -- to some degree -- the movement of all the targets, but since the casting gets resolved after the targets move (in the turn based variant) it feels difficult to predict who will be where when. This might not be an issue if you lock down all you targets quickly, but there is certainly a different order to things.

 

Just to note that a game like Final Fantasy Tactics also had casting times and targets could move. From what I'm seeing, you can retarget in TB mode, right? FFT similarly let you bind your targeting to the square (so if the target moved it would still stay there) or the target itself (so the aoe would follow the target). Just theorycrafting here, but seems like even with retargeting what you're talking about would mean that improving spell cast times (ro faster caster times) becomes much more important in TB.

[Baldiedash]

Just theorycrafting here, but seems like even with retargeting what you're talking about would mean that improving spell cast times (ro faster caster times) becomes much more important in TB.

 

If you could reduce casting times to the point of the casting happening in the action phase, most definitely. If you can't, and spells with casting times always gets resolved after you end your turn, then perhaps not so much. It might well be the same issue as with deflection, if you have enough so that no enemies can hit you then one or two points of deflection stacking can matter, but if you can't reach that level then it won't; i.e you will have to stack action speed and reduction to a sufficient point. Also worth pointing out is that more speed stacking might not matter depending on how initiative gets resolved in each round.

 

I kind of get why they have casting times, presumably it's to make interrupts functional, but it seems wonky.

 

As to retargeting, you can target an enemy and you will keep that target if he moves, but if you target a place then you won't have the option of retargeting. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Baldiedash

[Crumbleton]

From what I've seen in what I admit to be just really brief experiments....

 

Dex (initiative) is good for casters / people with CC since you'll want to go first, and have your spells (if aoe)target the right area and what not. I was able to play a scout with an arequebus in heavy armor with great defenses and heavy armor and it functioned quite well, while on the other hand light weapons like the hunting bow just let me shoot earlier but that seemed to be it.

 

I really don't mind the turn based action I love it but they either need to tweak the weapons a bit or have iniative tied to multiple attacks I think (for auto attacks). Like saying if you have 3 iniative you get 3 auto attack actions (just a random example) something that would let weapons like daggers be a bit more viable.

 

Either that or they'll need to mess with weapon damages a bit either could be alright. They could have lower base damage weapons like daggers have higher pen, or increase the damage.

 

I think maybe messing with the modals could be the way to go where they could go a little bit wilder with some of the weaker weapons instead of decreasing initiative maybe adding an extra action or something, I'm definitely much more familiar with ttrpgs and I feel they've done a great job, really phenomenal considering everything with this, but it just has a few things to really becoming great.

[Baldiedash]

I have to say that I really don't know what to make of the per round mechanic either. It either prolongs desired effects or drastically shortens them, when contrasted with a RTwP based system. I played a psyblade and I tried to hit with an eyestrike -- so far so good -- it hit, and my enemy got afflicted with blindess for two rounds. One round of the affliction got taken out of the same round I casted it so I had one round to hit my afflicted enemy until the effect wore off. Contrast that with the three possible hits I could have gotten in on a similarly afflicted enemy in the RTwP system (with a 4 second action and a 12 second affliction). This might not make much difference in the long run as it might balance out, but it sure feels different.

[thelee]

question - when do duration effects end? do they drop at the end of the round they expire, at the beginning, or at the same initiative order in which they landed?

[UltimaLuminaire]

Duration of effects seem to drop at the end of the character's turn and not necessarily on the same initiative the buff was cast, or at least this is how buffs like Frenzy work.

[TheMetaphysician]

Duration of effects seem to drop at the end of the character's turn and not necessarily on the same initiative the buff was cast, or at least this is how buffs like Frenzy work.

 

Yes, that seems to be the main reason to care about initiative. Better initiative = longer duration for effects, since it goes into effect earlier and drops at the same time.

[hairyscotsman2]

Caster focused will be the ones with fast weapons then. No point in scepter casters.

Noticed that Antipathetic Field hits allies

[masterty66]

Man, I'm getting absolutely pulverized by the Engwithan ruins drake fight on turn based. Even luring them up top I still keep dying. The early accuracy issues on Potd are just brutal. Was playing a Waelite Priest/Assassin.

 

I think I'm gonna restart and make sure to grab at least one Wizard henchman (assuming I myself don't choose Wizard). Chill Fog got me close to winning a few times and is a hugely powerful spell on potd.

 

I also don't think I liked having Xoti as monk/priest or Eder as pure fighter. So both of those are getting changed by me also.

 

I do still want to stick with the Wael Priest theme but maybe not go Assassin for my first run through on potd turnbased since it's a bit squishy even with the buffs.

Edited January 26, 2019 by masterty66

[brasilgringo]

How do you delay your action until later in the round?  I can only see End Turn as a button.  

From my experiences so far, turn-based makes everything so slow I am literally falling asleep in battles.

[Nindydar]

Man, I'm getting absolutely pulverized by the Engwithan ruins drake fight on turn based. Even luring them up top I still keep dying. The early accuracy issues on Potd are just brutal. Was playing a Waelite Priest/Assassin.

 

I think I'm gonna restart and make sure to grab at least one Wizard henchman (assuming I myself don't choose Wizard). Chill Fog got me close to winning a few times and is a hugely powerful spell on potd.

 

I also don't think I liked having Xoti as monk/priest or Eder as pure fighter. So both of those are getting changed by me also.

 

I do still want to stick with the Wael Priest theme but maybe not go Assassin for my first run through on potd turnbased since it's a bit squishy even with the buffs.

 

I find that an Ancient druid henchman makes that section much easier. Charm Beast trivializes that fight and you get Aloth immediately after. 

[UltimaLuminaire]

You'll need to crank the speed up to max, but in return it's very easy to follow what's happening.

 

I've also only been using End Turn.

[Saito Hikari]

There is a tiny 'Delay Turn' button immediately to the left of the combat speed bar (which in itself is right below the 'End Turn' button).

 

I didn't know it was there until I decided I wanted to check the entire UI when other people started talking about delaying turns.

[Boeroer]

You should really link this thread to the beta feedback for turn based mode subforum.

[TheMetaphysician]

You should really link this thread to the beta feedback for turn based mode subforum.

 

How do I do that?

[Koiju]

 

- Duration and linger for chants is really interesting. Chants last 1 round and linger for 1 round. So everyone has by default the previously Troubadour-only ability to have 2 chants up all the time. Also, the Troubadour linger bonus would need to combine with Intelligence to get to +100% for it to have any effect at all, since the breakpoint would need take the chant from a 1 round linger to a 2 round linger. I'm not sure it is possible to achieve that -- my guy with Berath's Blessings and maxed Int and an Int-boosting pet isn't close -- which means that the Troubadour linger bonus would be useless. (Which is ok; that class is plenty strong enough as it is.) On the other hand, if you could somehow stack enough intelligence to get a +100% linger bonus, you could have 3 chants up simultaneously all the time.

 

On the other hand, the Brisk Recitation modal strengthens some chants. Chants like the Weakening chant, Soft Winds, Ancient Memory that make an attack or do damage or heal seem to apply twice in the same round with Brisk Recitation, which doubles their value. (I tested Soft Winds and am inferring about the others.) That's not true in the base game. (Don't assume that means Ancient Memory is actually twice as valuable in turn-based. Since the "amount healed" changed, the math to figure that out would have be a lot more complicated, and take into account the "amount healed" proportionally for all the other healing abilities in the game.)

This is not entirely true, I have done some testing, and put the results in a thread here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/108151-turn-based-mode-and-troubador/?p=2134678

[QuiteGoneJin]

Is it just me or is turned based WAY too easy (I usually only play on veteran but im not good at the RTWP games). I feel like the enemy AI is just too derpy. Sometimes not moving much, skipping turnes, not doing aoes or abilities, just autoing a lot. I'm not far in but some fights i find hard usually are hella easy rn. 

[masterty66]

Is it just me or is turned based WAY too easy (I usually only play on veteran but im not good at the RTWP games). I feel like the enemy AI is just too derpy. Sometimes not moving much, skipping turnes, not doing aoes or abilities, just autoing a lot. I'm not far in but some fights i find hard usually are hella easy rn. 

 

I haven't noticed this, but I play on POTD and admittedly haven't gotten very far yet. Potd actually seems harder in some ways since the nature of turn based means you can't as easily split encounters. In RTWP you can kite enemies around and split tough pulls, but here that seems harder to do.

 

I started a Cleric (Wael/Black Jacket) and I gotta say the Black Jacket bonus is actually super nice on turn based mode. Being able to switch weapons as a fast action ensures you basically always have the right tool for the job. That's huge in turn based where you want every attack to count.

[mzum]

1st Post!

 

Forbidden Fist + Chanter feels fun.

 

On PotD, Duality of Mortal Presence + Forbidden Fist, you can stun lock the opponent. With 30 Intelligence and Enfeeble up:

• Stunning Blow stuns for 2 rounds (non-crit)
• The Waves Crashed Over stuns for 2 rounds (possibly on non-crit)
• "I'll Get You!" invocation frightens for an unholy long time (On Crit, Frighten lasted for 12 rounds)
• Negative Chant Crits could stack up long durations.

 

A Forbidden Fist / Skald might be fun!

 

I'll investigate breakpoints sometime tonight.