Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[Boeroer]

Doesn't Enduring Dance work?

[Takkik]

ah, and actualy I think I tested and Mortification work too (it did when the 4.0 came out). Ok time to go to bed.

 

But still feel not that optimal. And the monk don't lack attack abilities. I would have prefered something that work with his existing attacks instead of replacing them.

[Anoregon]

I see Forbidden fist as the Monk version of Soul Annihilation - you forgo the bulk of your class abilities to use your generated resource on a specific, repeated attack. However, the Cipher version of the mechanic works better because Soul Blade doesn't dramatically change or reduce focus gains. You are likely going to use the bulk of your focus on SA, but you still have your standard focus generation to use whatever cipher abilities you want as the situation dictates. Forbidden Fist has a much higher opportunity cost due to how it removes the primary form of resource generation from the class. You are locked into a cycle of casting forbidden fist.

[brasilgringo]

I see Forbidden fist as the Monk version of Soul Annihilation - you forgo the bulk of your class abilities to use your generated resource on a specific, repeated attack. However, the Cipher version of the mechanic works better because Soul Blade doesn't dramatically change or reduce focus gains. You are likely going to use the bulk of your focus on SA, but you still have your standard focus generation to use whatever cipher abilities you want as the situation dictates. Forbidden Fist has a much higher opportunity cost due to how it removes the primary form of resource generation from the class. You are locked into a cycle of casting forbidden fist.

 

I think one of the key points made in the comments above is that casting FF repeatedly isn't worth the cost/risk, as the self-damage/affliction from curse is significantly worse for the monk than the bonus damage from the FF itself.  The scaling of the damage and duration of the curse were both commented in some detail, in an analysis that I thought was spot on.  In short, you can't really cast FF enough times under the current mechanics.  

 

I think the suggestion of having a FF bonus apply to all monk attacks, not just the FF itself, is an interesting potential approach here, plus toning down the self-damage/affliction duration.

[Takkik]

I see Forbidden fist as the Monk version of Soul Annihilation - you forgo the bulk of your class abilities to use your generated resource on a specific, repeated attack. However, the Cipher version of the mechanic works better because Soul Blade doesn't dramatically change or reduce focus gains. You are likely going to use the bulk of your focus on SA, but you still have your standard focus generation to use whatever cipher abilities you want as the situation dictates. Forbidden Fist has a much higher opportunity cost due to how it removes the primary form of resource generation from the class. You are locked into a cycle of casting forbidden fist.

I've always seen soul annihilation as a way to dumb exces focus or when you have no abilities interesting to spend. Since Poe1 I've found it's easy to end up with too much focus in short fights, and with multiclassing you end up with a limited range of abilities. For me it always worked as a extra option.

 

Forbidden Fist on the other end, since it alter the way you gain wounds, make other wound attacks less appealing since you gain far less. Be able to 'spam' your attacks feel more powerfull than using a few time forbidden fist. Forbidden fist would be closer to soul annihilation if it was using all your aviable wounds and doing dmg depending of the number of wounds.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Takkik

[dunehunter]

 

With that said, Arcane Archer is weaker than standard Ranger at ranged DPS, and weaker than standard Wizard at nuking. Add in the Sharpshooter and Evoker subclasses, and Arcane Archer is shred to pieces, especially by a multiclass that combines the two (but even if you kept a single-class Sharpshooter you could invest in Arcana and nuke like an Arcane Archer; imbue are nice but hardly a game changer.)

I have a different opinion.

 

First of all I don't think that Assassin, Trickster or Streetfighter are straight out better than a vanilla Rogue. Their advantages and disadvantages balance each other out - sort of.

 

But there are several ways to circumvent the disadvantages and there are builds where certain subclasses are better than others - for example a Trickster is better for a tanky build than an Assassin.

 

I also don't think that the Barb subclasses are worse than the vanilla class. More niche maybe, but there are niches where they are def. better. Berserker is praised - but only because people think the crit conversion and the better inspirations outweigh the self damage - which they don't in my opinion. If you play a high level Berserker it's a big disadvantage actually.

And the fact that you can circumvent confusion... well as I said: you can circumvent the disadvantages with most subclasses as you would try to do with any build: build out your strengths, circumvent the weaknesses.

 

Same with the Arcane Archer.

 

I don't think he's worse than a Sharpshooter, Ghost Heart or a Stalker. Sharpshooters actually always suffer from a permanent speed malus that hampers their dps. Against enemies where AR is no problem they are straight out worse than other rangers. Stalkers are only good at melee range and require more micromanagement. With AI it's a pain to prevent Bonded Grief. Ghost Heart's animal companion can't do anything better than the normal AC but costs Bond AND counts towards the summoning limit. But you can find builds/cases where each of those makes sense and is a better pick than the others.

 

The Arcane Archer can hit several enemies with multiple spells using only one shot. As I already said: Imbue: Death at high levels is one of the things that can currently wipe a whole group of dummies with two shots if you build the Arcane Archer correctly. Because of the Arcana-ACC bonus you'll generate tons of crits with your imbue spell, the dmg number of Death Ring can be over 100 for each hit roll, you can at least trigger two ones with Driving Flight and three with an additional jump AND it has the chance to destroy targets that have low health. You can maybe see the synergy with the multi-triggering...

Three instances of Pull of Eora with one imbue shot with such high ACC will guarantee nothing leaves that area - especially when you combine it with Binding Roots(!). A very potent CC option - and you need no caster for that and not even a "dedicated" CC guy.

 

The disadvantages can be circumvented easily as with other subclasses: low health isn't a big deal because you will be ranged and thus will plan to play with lowish health and defenses anyway. The ACC pen is non-existent with the right weapons (which are not hard to come by).

 

I tested that class a lot now and I have not the impression that it's worse than the other subclasses. Same with the Furyshaper by the way. The others I have not really tried so I can't say.

 

That there are subclasses that are indeed better than the vanilla class (see Troubadour) doesn't mean that this should be done with every new subclass. Because it's boring if you are forced to pick the same subclass over and over again when you're somebody who cares for power.

 

At the moment I think it's just an assumed weakness than an actual one - like it was at the release of PoE where lots of people seriously found that Wizards are useless.

Trickster is straight better than vanilla rogue...

[Boeroer]

Sorry, too late to the party.

[Gregorovich]

Well, Arcane Archer could be a good synergy with any rogue, as applying high-ACC debuffs, first of all Imbue Web, ensures you attack an enemie with an affliction plus CC.

Another good synergy is Steel Garrote. I have not tested if the healing bonus is applied to the ranged damage, does anybody know that? If yes, oh yeah, easy self-heal.

But considering multiclasses, wizard, especially the Blood one still seems a better option due to greater amount of low-level debuffs.

 

Pull of Eora is 10th level for multi-wizard, and 19th for the Archer

 

Edit: I am talking about multiclasses only now, as the the single Arcane Archer seems to be an interesting option

Edited December 12, 2018 by Gregorovich

[Boeroer]

Once the multi-projectile-problem of the Imbue abilities is fixed (e.g. Blunderbuss: only the first projectile hits) then Imbue:Missiles could be a nice option for a Geomancer: cast Combusting Wounds on enemies and then attack then with a Blunderbuss/Frostseeker/the new Crossbow from Forgotten Sanctum in order to apply a lot of hits (4 or 3 plus the missiles whose pprojectile count is supposed to scale with PL) in very short time.

[Gregorovich]

About Barbarian new subclass Furyshaper.

 

It has been mentioned, but has not been discussed much. Generally it's one I really liked. Not overpowered, but it interesting, especially for Barb. Berserk used to be the only subclass I played much. Corpse Eater and Mage-Slayer... Actually, I can't say, these guys are bad, at least for me. The problem, as for me, is in the fact they are created for a relatively small numbers of encounters, where you face the guys you can eat or the ones, who uses spells, but in front of the boss you stay mainly with all your drawbacks. So i decided to try a Furyshaper/Blood Mage. My character is 12th level. So few things, I've noticed:

 

1) Wards of the Furyshaper are squishy, that's true, but AI does not seem to pay much attention to them. Ward is usually attacked when located in a narrow path, so the melee enemy can't reach you without destroying the ward, or AoE, which is obvious. Especially, if this is the Frenzy ward, because he does not target enemies.

 

2) Frenzy bonus from  is applied to your barb and summed with the Frenzy ability. As I am playing warlock and use spells to increase Dex - that makes my Red Hand look like an assault rifle with a chanter in my party. The low-level spells are spammed with the speed of light. Also you buff 

 

3) Fear ward is a great CC option. It works almost like Ryngrim's Enervating Visage (sorry if misspelled)

Differences: Cons: Does NOT apply Wickened affliction, does not move with your character plus squishy - difficult to use in melee. As the Fear ward targets enemies - chances that it's going to be targeted by enemies are bigger. The ACC of the ward might not be affected by your character's bonuses and artifacts, as it is a summon.

Pros: Radius is bigger, easy to cover your whole party, including priest, druid and all your friends. Base duration of the Visage - 15 sec. Fear ward - 30 sec. Makes your Barb a CC anyway

 

4) Furyshaper is one of the best Barb subclasses if you love shooting, like me, as it is easier to deal with wards, if you're not on the frontline, which encourages to use ranged weapons plus Fear ward is a nice protection from rogues.

 

5) Fear Ward + Wizards's Chill Fog, Slicken, Web, Pull of Eora - everybody's debuffed and controlled! But it is more about the class combo.

 

6) At the moment, protecting the ward is not so difficult/ After some time you feel how to position it safely and correctly.

 

7) The ward has base defenses as -15, yes minus 15. But it is increased with your char's level, as well as ACC and health. Anyway it is not usually destroyed by oneshot.

 

8 ) The ward can be healed by all the druid an priest spells. It is immune to Poison, Disease, Intellect and Resolve afflictions, as i noticed. Not sure of Perception.

 

9) If the ward is destroyed - you lose 1 PL for the encounter. You can summon another one, but if it is destroyed, you have - 2 PL. But if you do not use damage-spells, when multiclassed, with a spellcaster, 1-2 PL lost is not a big deal.

 

10) You can have only one ward, as it is one summon, so one summon per hero only. It's already been mentioned before.

 

11) Also you have +10 ACC against spirits and -15 Will. That does not change the game much, but having Bull's will, Svef, Captain's Banquet is a good point.

 

Well, I also want to ask everybody, who used Furyshaper. I feel it lacks one more ward at 5-7 PLs and it would be a nice thing to add one. For example, Ward of Might which has aura, that adds 15% crush damage, or Ward of Fire, or Storm, well, I think you see, what I mean. That wouldn't be OP or gamebreaking, but a potent tactical option. What do you think?

Edited December 12, 2018 by Gregorovich

[Dr <3]

About furyshaper: what about multiclass with a chiper?

 

- you have a +15 will talent to balce the class malus

- you mantain the madman/psycho mood

- you have many ways to lower enemies will with chyper spells

- fear ward + spirit tornado : terror for ages

- if solo : you have an easy frienly target to cast amplified thrust/soul shock/amplified wave ( actually is only a supposition, not actually tested)

- somebody tested if the empty soul talent work also with barb spirit tornado/ dazing shout?

 

 

Edit: wards are NOT valid target to any chiper power ( at least not for ampilified wave, soul shock, amplified thrust and the + accuracy power)

Edited December 17, 2018 by Dr <3

[Gregorovich]

Cipher and furyshaper is a great combo,

I took BM, because I wanted to try wiz/barb new subclasses specifically and I used cipher on my recent playthrough.

The Iron will and all the cipher's debuffs is a nice choice as well.

I have not tested, but as I remember Empty soul work with cipher spells only.

 

And Blood Mage/Furyshaper, guy who got madness from his past life and sacrifices his blood for power, well that's all around crazy combo too

[Climhazzard]

Cipher also gets Echoing horror, in case the combo with Furyshaper didn't have enough ways to fear enemies, lol.  Furyshaper would probably be pretty fun with ranger too imo.

[brasilgringo]

Cipher and furyshaper is a great combo,

I took BM, because I wanted to try wiz/barb new subclasses specifically and I used cipher on my recent playthrough.

The Iron will and all the cipher's debuffs is a nice choice as well.

I have not tested, but as I remember Empty soul work with cipher spells only.

 

And Blood Mage/Furyshaper, guy who got madness from his past life and sacrifices his blood for power, well that's all around crazy combo too

 

Can you cast spells on the wards as if they were an ally?  Like amplified wave?

[Gregorovich]

Can't say about the amplified wave, I have not checked.

If the spell is AoE, like priest healing spells, Devotions for the faithful, Moon well, etc. and the ward is in the area, it is applied anyway.

If you use single-target friend abilities on the ward, it depends, for example, Lay on Hands - no, Withdraw - yes

[brasilgringo]

If you can cast friendly spells like Amp Wave on the totem, that would be pretty slick. If the Frenzy totem bonus gets applied to your own frenzy as said above, I assume that makes for some fast casting even with longish Cypher spells.  Could be cool to check out.  Not sure if solo build is doable,  but could make for any interesting MC build for Cypher.  If anyone has ideas with stats / gear, worth posting. Thx.

[Yonto]

I want to try a Debonaire / Beguiler so I have a quick question since I didn't have the time to test the beta. Does the increase form hit to crit against charmed targets work for all charmed effect or just for the special one from Debonaire?

[Boeroer]

When I tested it worked with all charmed targets (NOT dominated though) - no matter the source of the charm.

 

BUT you had to have another conversion ability - like Dirty Fighting. Else the Debonaire conversion wouldn't trigger.

 

I reported that weird behavior as bug here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/106967-40-debonaires-hit-to-crit-conversion-behaves-weirdly/

[Yonto]

When I tested it worked with all charmed targets (NOT dominated though) - no matter the source of the charm.

 

BUT you had to have another conversion ability - like Dirty Fighting. Else the Debonaire conversion wouldn't trigger.

 

I reported that weird behavior as bug here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/106967-40-debonaires-hit-to-crit-conversion-behaves-weirdly/

Got it. Thanks for the info. Quite weird that there’s been no answer to the issue in a bit. We’ll see when it goes live

[Boeroer]

I guess they couldn't reproduce reliably.

 

Anyways: if you take Dirty Fighting you are safe.

[QuiteGoneJin]

So, which of the new subclasses aren't bugged, not working as we thought etc. Besides tactician multiclassing for the ability spamming (not sure if i wanna play the mini game of avoiding engagement and flanking everyone.

[Verde]

Sorry, too late to the party.

Nice try Boeroer. It's true and you know it.

 

I think you quoted the wrong person too.

[Milobaron88]

Hello everyone

 

Would like to get your (more experienced) thoughts on a build I'm planning now that the new classes are out. Thinking Arcane Archer/Steel Garrote

 

Essentially build would revolve around using flames of devotion as a source of elemental damage (negating the AA Acc penalty) and Zealous auras to buff accuracy/penetration.   The heal from damage would also help the health penalty

 

Questions are - would this work? , stats (thinking high might/int, not sure about the rest, proabaly dump con a bit) and weaponry (Dragon's breath for RP, more fire dmg) 

 

Thanks all

[Fredward]

So is the Psion worth anything? I really like the idea of a pure psychic but the slow focus regeneration and the loss of soul whip is making me leery.

[Gregorovich]

Yeah this would work. I thought about trying something like that later.

I have no experience playing solo, everything I write is about party gameplay

1. I would prefer stats like: Perception>Intelligence>Might/Dexter. Even more dex than might to reload quickly

2. If the enemy Deflection is low use the Red Hand, the DPS is higher.

3. Have a chanter in your party with Ila chant on, wear Acina's Tricorn and Maia's Robe(do not remember exact name) to reload faster.

4. If you use arquebus passive, it gives extra ACC, 15, as I remember, it negates the ACC bonus of the Zealous Aura, also it does not give you PEN bonus.

5. I would use Imbue web to afflict everybody and heal from damage.

Good luck