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What specific process did the Engwithans use to create the Gods?

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Thaos believes people need to believe in greater meaning to life, and that not having meaning will drive them to despair. That's why he goes to such lengths to cover up the origins of the gods- they're pointless if people know they were made

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Thaos believes people need to believe in greater meaning to life, and that not having meaning will drive them to despair. That's why he goes to such lengths to cover up the origins of the gods- they're pointless if people know they were made

Meanwhile the beings that were created are throwing moons at the planet and causing who knows how many disasters because "I r madz".

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Thaos believes people need to believe in greater meaning to life, and that not having meaning will drive them to despair. That's why he goes to such lengths to cover up the origins of the gods- they're pointless if people know they were made

That’s an incredibly charitable interpretation. “Greater meaning” could have been achieved by stressing the importance of participative democracy, the wonder of scientific progress, or the [adjective] of [prosocial behavior of your choosing]. Instead he encouraged superstition and intentionally kept the masses stupid. He had hid reasons and you may agree with them (he certainly presents them in a sympathetic manner), but let’s not lie to ourselves about what he was doing or why.
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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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It's the reason Thaos gives, though maybe not the reason for any given Engwithan who was in on it. Thaos says that without the gods existence would be hollow because there would be no greater meaning apart from the Wheel.

 

You're right about the other ways "greater meaning" could have been achieved; this is something you can pretty much say to Thaos with the line about "teaching people there were no gods" which was Iovara's position, and the one I agree with. If the gods don't represent the greater meaning the Engwithans claim them to, there's no reason to have them

Edited by house2fly
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A fair point but, speaking from experience, [qualifier] of [prosocial behavior] may not be enough of a greater meaning for everyone. I know it isn’t for me.

 

Realizing there is no god may not necessarily turn everyone into a crazed murderhobos, which is essentially what Thaos says he was out to prevent; in fact most people would either find greater meaning in prosocial behavior or simply get depressed. A number may commit suicide. Some would become crazed murderhobos, maybe, but I’d say they wouldn’t be role models in the presence of a god either.

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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A fair point but, speaking from experience, [qualifier] of [prosocial behavior] may not be enough of a greater meaning for everyone. I know it isn’t for me.

 

Realizing there is no god may not necessarily turn everyone into a crazed murderhobos, which is essentially what Thaos says he was out to prevent; in fact most people would either find greater meaning in prosocial behavior or simply get depressed. A number may commit suicide. Some would become crazed murderhobos, maybe, but I’d say they wouldn’t be role models in the presence of a god either.

Thaos' argument was that other civilization were murdering each other because they had differing gods; if they all have the same views, they will not kill each other because of differing gods! It's fine if they decide to genocide each other for different reasons though.

 

The problem the Engwithan's ended up with is that their Gods are not as beneficial to the world in the manner that they hoped. Sure, kith aren't killed over religion, excluding the Dyrwood because they're just that ****ed up, but the Gods are killing people.

 

When Ondra killed Abydon an untold amount of kith could have died, more people died during the Saint's War, Eothas kills who nows how many more in the Deadfire, Woedica is likely responsible for even more deaths if her behavior during the first chat is anything to go on, and Magran kills everything at Ashen Maw and kills eleven clerics during the Godhammer.

 

How is any of this an improvement on life before the "Gods"?

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I think we make the mistake that we use the christian understanding of god ( allmighty, all knowing, eternal, good, creator of the world, . . . ) on the PoE setting.

One big difference is that there are several gods in PoE and there are conflicts between the gods. So we should compare PoE with polytheistic religions from earth.

 

I do not know anything about polynesian religion, but I think about the roman, greece or norse religion we can say:

- Gods or powerful but not allmighty and all knowing. Gods or mortals can try to hide things from gods and sometimes they succeed. Gods also let other gods or mortals do things for them, most likely because the other one can do it better.

- Gods are powerful and they live very long, maybe even potentionally forever, but they can be killed by other gods or sometimes even by mortals.

- Gods are a "product of supernatural biology". I mean that they are being born and they can have children with other gods or even with mortals. I do not know if the oldest ones are as old as the world itself, but most of them were born later.

- Basically gods act like humans with very strong magic powers and who can live a very long time.

 

If we look at that, the gods from PoE are exactly like the gods of ancient european religions, the only difference is that the earth gods were created naturally while the PoE gods have been created by people who used technology to do this.

If we assume that in ancient european religion gods were just very powerful magic human like beings and a mortal could ( at least theoretically ) become a god, then the difference between earth and PoE is gone almost completely.

 

So I say: Yes, the PoE gods are real gods. The fact that they have been created is irrelevant, it does not change the fact that they are powerful magic beings.

The main difference between people knowing that the gods have been created or not is the following: If they know that the gods have been created, they know that the ideals the gods stand for are not the natural order of the world, but they are the ideals of the people who created the gods.

It does not change the fact that the gods will punish you if you do not follow their ideals.

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Will they, though? We see the Eoran gods punish the Watcher for breaking a promise made to them (i.e. knowingly crossing them) but they don’t seem to be fighting for kith attention. Unlike in D&D, where gods are powered by the faith of their worshippers and can die if that wanes too much, in Eora the gods can live and prosper even if kith never gave a damn.

 

Granted, they do have a specific “order” in mind, each for their portfolio. Kith who try to subvert that order may incur the relevant god’s ire, but I think that’s about it. A kith who gives no damns isn’t going to be pursued.

Edited by AndreaColombo

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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In the Forgotten Realms, Torm the True was once a mortal Paladin who was raised to demi-godhood by Tyr, later then to the status of Lesser God and eventually to Greater God. Is he a real god? Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal, the same. Kelemvor and the list goes on and on. I think in this context, power is the main criterion, not much else.

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Somehow this topic reminds me of Xenogears.

 

If god doesn't exist in our world, then... I will create god with my own hands! 

 

You folks might want to read up about Karellen.

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In the Forgotten Realms, Torm the True was once a mortal Paladin who was raised to demi-godhood by Tyr, later then to the status of Lesser God and eventually to Greater God. Is he a real god? Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal, the same. Kelemvor and the list goes on and on. I think in this context, power is the main criterion, not much else.

Yes, but in the Forgotten Realms the Grand DM decreed that every God requires worshippers in order to survive. The Drow God of necromancy faded from existence after some bull**** occurred where everyone forgot her existence.

 

A more apt comparison for the PoE gods would be with Dragonlance, where the Gods exist and repeatedly **** over the world because they're constantly fighting each other. Hell, the God of Goodness Paladine destroyed an entire civilization because he didn't like its leader. He wiped them out by throwing a mountain at them, clearly Ondra was inspired by him.

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It's the reason Thaos gives, though maybe not the reason for any given Engwithan who was in on it. Thaos says that without the gods existence would be hollow because there would be no greater meaning apart from the Wheel.

 

You're right about the other ways "greater meaning" could have been achieved; this is something you can pretty much say to Thaos with the line about "teaching people there were no gods" which was Iovara's position, and the one I agree with. If the gods don't represent the greater meaning the Engwithans claim them to, there's no reason to have them

Thaos very clearly believes that “greater meaning” can only have one interpretation. This is telling and affords us the ability do away with the window dressing.
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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Somehow this topic reminds me of Xenogears.

 

If god doesn't exist in our world, then... I will create god with my own hands!

 

You folks might want to read up about Karellen.

Brings me back! One of my fav games ever.

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It does not change the fact that the gods will punish you if you do not follow their ideals.

So the only reason to follow a god is they might kill you if you don't?

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It does not change the fact that the gods will punish you if you do not follow their ideals.

So the only reason to follow a god is they might kill you if you don't?

Given the Gods apathy towards life they'll probably kill you regardless of worship.

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In the Forgotten Realms, Torm the True was once a mortal Paladin who was raised to demi-godhood by Tyr, later then to the status of Lesser God and eventually to Greater God. Is he a real god? Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal, the same. Kelemvor and the list goes on and on. I think in this context, power is the main criterion, not much else.

Yes, but in the Forgotten Realms the Grand DM decreed that every God requires worshippers in order to survive. The Drow God of necromancy faded from existence after some bull**** occurred where everyone forgot her existence.

 

A more apt comparison for the PoE gods would be with Dragonlance, where the Gods exist and repeatedly **** over the world because they're constantly fighting each other. Hell, the God of Goodness Paladine destroyed an entire civilization because he didn't like its leader. He wiped them out by throwing a mountain at them, clearly Ondra was inspired by him.

 

Not sure if Paladine is as fickle as Ondra. Ondra has a very different character.

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I think we make the mistake that we use the christian understanding of god ( allmighty, all knowing, eternal, good, creator of the world, . . . ) on the PoE setting.

One big difference is that there are several gods in PoE and there are conflicts between the gods. So we should compare PoE with polytheistic religions from earth.

 

I do not know anything about polynesian religion, but I think about the roman, greece or norse religion we can say:

- Gods or powerful but not allmighty and all knowing. Gods or mortals can try to hide things from gods and sometimes they succeed. Gods also let other gods or mortals do things for them, most likely because the other one can do it better.

- Gods are powerful and they live very long, maybe even potentionally forever, but they can be killed by other gods or sometimes even by mortals.

- Gods are a "product of supernatural biology". I mean that they are being born and they can have children with other gods or even with mortals. I do not know if the oldest ones are as old as the world itself, but most of them were born later.

- Basically gods act like humans with very strong magic powers and who can live a very long time.

 

If we look at that, the gods from PoE are exactly like the gods of ancient european religions, the only difference is that the earth gods were created naturally while the PoE gods have been created by people who used technology to do this.

If we assume that in ancient european religion gods were just very powerful magic human like beings and a mortal could ( at least theoretically ) become a god, then the difference between earth and PoE is gone almost completely.

 

So I say: Yes, the PoE gods are real gods. The fact that they have been created is irrelevant, it does not change the fact that they are powerful magic beings.

The main difference between people knowing that the gods have been created or not is the following: If they know that the gods have been created, they know that the ideals the gods stand for are not the natural order of the world, but they are the ideals of the people who created the gods.

It does not change the fact that the gods will punish you if you do not follow their ideals.

 

There is one difference though, "earthly" gods - any of them! - created the world (or were created by someone who created the world). Hence, had (disputable) rights to treat it as their own creation and do with it or with the people (created by them as well) as they pleased. Here we have a pure human creation. This is precisely "magical toaster" case, or (to  be more animated) - kings with special "noble" blood, an artificial object of worshiping. 

 

So, I'd say - no, they are not gods but a magic using police force and upper management, ignoring their responsibilities (and what would you expect from a creation nobody ever cared to proper raze and educate). In short - engwitainians did not really think it through at time. 

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It does not change the fact that the gods will punish you if you do not follow their ideals.

So the only reason to follow a god is they might kill you if you don't?
Given the Gods apathy towards life they'll probably kill you regardless of worship.
oh cool, there's no reason to worship gods at all

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There is no 'real God' to have any basis for comparison.

 

It's just a fantasy game, people seem really het up on this.


nowt

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Well, the entire plot of both games revolves around the gods and their artificial, man-made nature. It is only fair that we try to understand the lore and its ramifications—and at least as far as I’m concerned, RL parallels make the discussion even more interesting.

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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