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Is it just me or is the corpse-eater subclass awful?

barbarian corpse eater sucks

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#1
thelee

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I haven't played barbarians much, so I was thinking of rolling one.

 

Corpse-eater sounded interesting at first. Oh, eat a kith/wilder/beast corpse and get +3 rage and heal +50 health? Neato. Oh, it takes 3s with 3s recovery and at 0 range? Oh, well, I guess it has to be balanced out somewhere.

 

But wait, this downside: "abilities cost 1 more rage"... what??

 

Never mind that your likely rage spenders are super cheap so +1 rage cost is a massive increase (with 6 rage you could do 6 barbaric roars on a vanilla barbarian vs... 3), but the +1 rage cost means that if you use three abilities in a fight, you have to eat at least one corpse in a fight just to do the same thing a vanilla barbarian can. I.E. with 6 rage you can barbarian blow three times with a vanilla barb, or barbarian blow twice, eat corpse, barbarian blow again and now you've just done what a normal barbarian could already do... you don't really start to benefit in most cases until the second corpse (and if you're spamming frenzy/shouts you actually need three corpses to turn a "profit").  I mean, sure, you heal 50 health/corpse, but this ignores the fact that you probably had to break off an engagement to go eat a random corpse and the opportunity cost of wasting 6 seconds to do this (likely more with armor). And in fights with vessels/spirits/primordials, you're just straight up worse than a vanilla barbarian. Seems like an awful lot of downside for little gain (e.g. long kith/wilder/beast fights where you can eat enough corpses to turn a "profit" all while that 6 second/corpse opportunity cost isn't somehow costing you the fight).

 

Am I missing something here? Is kith meat/forbidden pie just that good in practice?



#2
mant2si

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Nope, you right, this subclass the worst one

They must make this ability passive, reduce health regeneration to 10-20 and rage refund to 1
 


Edited by mant2si, 12 July 2018 - 04:42 PM.


#3
gkathellar

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Reflexively, I'm inclined to agree, but I know I've seen it suggested that it's actually phenomenally good once you get the hang of it. I have no practical experience to contribute, however.

 

But I dunno, kind of feels like it takes the barbarian's biggest weakness - sustained single-target combat - and aggravates it.



#4
Murp

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Unfortunately the barbarian subclasses aren't the best. They really need a tuning.



#5
sarcongin

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Try corpse-eater - druid shifter. Tons of fun to eat people as a were wolf
:D
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#6
Boeroer

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Besides Berserker you mean?

I find Mage Slayer ok.

The main problem of the Corpse Eater is that +1 rage cost and the long time it takes to finish Flesh Communion are not well balanced.

Since it would be kind of ridiculous to allow a faster Flesh Communion (in its current form that you literally have to eat). I mean sitting down, eating the flesh... all that in a few seconds. Hasty meal... So I think they should work on the "downside" more. +1 Rage for everything seems too harsh, especially in the early levels. Later on its not that bad anymore - but I don't think "gimping" classes in an early stage isn't a good way to create acceptance for it. Look how people don't like Xoti's subclass for the same reason. Maybe reduce max Rage to -2? Then you would be worse than a normal barb at first but already better after using Flesh Communion one time.

Or they change Flesh Communion to another effect like "Soul Communion" where you passively consume corpses' essence for a smaller effect.

I never tried what happens if you use Flesh Communion with an active Blood Thirst?
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#7
Ascaloth

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Another way to buff the Corpse Eater is, perhaps, to just let go of the idea that he has to eat the entirety of the corpse; you know, eating the heart of an enemy to gain his strength, that kind of idea. Make Flesh Communion a passive that activates automatically upon kill of a Kith enemy.

 

Then you'd get the fantasy version of Raiden from MGR; cut an enemy to ribbons, tear out his heart for a quick bite, done.  8)



#8
thelee

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Besides Berserker you mean?

I find Mage Slayer ok.

The main problem of the Corpse Eater is that +1 rage cost and the long time it takes to finish Flesh Communion are not well balanced.

Since it would be kind of ridiculous to allow a faster Flesh Communion (in its current form that you literally have to eat). I mean sitting down, eating the flesh... all that in a few seconds. Hasty meal... So I think they should work on the "downside" more. +1 Rage for everything seems too harsh, especially in the early levels. Later on its not that bad anymore - but I don't think "gimping" classes in an early stage isn't a good way to create acceptance for it. Look how people don't like Xoti's subclass for the same reason. Maybe reduce max Rage to -2? Then you would be worse than a normal barb at first but already better after using Flesh Communion one time.

Or they change Flesh Communion to another effect like "Soul Communion" where you passively consume corpses' essence for a smaller effect.

I never tried what happens if you use Flesh Communion with an active Blood Thirst?

 

again, I'm not too familiar with playing with barbarians but I thought it was the case that Berserkers were good because you could just intellect inspiration your way out of the main downside (the confuse). the hit->crit and tenacious/hardy upgrades (+2 pen and +2 AR over normal frenzy) sound amazing to me to have at will at PL1, even with the raw damage and hidden health (i mean hidden health was the norm for berserking in BG2 and pillars so I'm used to it).

 

i might be more OK with a corpse-eater merely if flesh communion had like a 6m range. the biggest problem I have with it is the fact that you physically have to get over to the corpse you want to commune with. that's a huge opportunity cost (not to mention losing a lot of tactical positioning and possibly messing with engagement/disengagement) on top of the 6s, unless I'm somehow funnelling all kith/wilder/beasts to the corpseeater specifically.



#9
Manveru123

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Shh don't tell Obsidian!



#10
Loren Tyr

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I think making it a passive could easily make it too powerful though, and it also doesn't really fit the theme of the class. I think for the most part the Flesh Communion ability as it stands is fine, it has good flavour (depending on taste, I suppose) and provides an easily repeatable source of Rage (and health) so it can definitely be used for fun and interesting builds. Maybe not top-tier, PotD solo material, but not everything has to be. After one snack you're essentially almost at the same level of Rage as other Barbarians (depending a bit; you can't go over the max. amount of Rage so you might not get the full three Rage in all circumstances), and with a nice bit of HP gain as well. 

 

I played around with it a bit though, and the big issue I've found is indeed just the limited diet, in two different ways: firstly, obviously that you can only eat kith/beast/wilder, leaving lots of fights with no opportunity for some light snacking. But secondly, and perhaps even more annoyingly, you can't eat anything that died from a crit. Especially for Barbarian, that's rather unfortunate given the assorted crit-enhancing abilities the class has.

 

I think to make the class viable, at the very least it would need:

- ability to eat vessels and primordials as well; leaving out spirits would probably be fine, and it wouldn't make sense anyway 

- ability to eat critted enemies

- allow gained Rage to overflow the maximum Rage, so you always get 3.

 

(certainly the first two, but the third would also go a long way I think)

 

 

For added flavour, what would also be nice:

- give each different meat type an additional different side effect when eaten (maybe a small negative side effect for eating eg. vessel flesh, as a price to pay for being able to eat it)

- allow critted enemies to be eaten faster (they're already chunkified, so makes sense)

- add a small AOE effect like Sickened or Shaken to Flesh Communion (dude is stopping in the middle of battle to eat a dead guy, you'd think that would give enemies pause; probably allies as well, though they might get used to it after a while)

 

I really hope they make some changes to this effect, because it is a very flavourful subclass and I'd love to be able to really use it. But as it stands it's just much of a picky eater, and there are too many fights where you can't use Flesh Communion at all or too infrequently (due to critting), and then the drawback is just too steep.


Edited by Loren Tyr, 13 July 2018 - 01:59 AM.


#11
Haplok

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Eating Vessels and Primordials doesn't make much sense, though. The other suggestions are fine. But don't solve the issue that you can't use the ability in a fairly large number of encounters. Unless it's changed to something like Soul Communion, which was already suggested.



#12
Loren Tyr

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Eating Vessels and Primordials doesn't make much sense, though. The other suggestions are fine. But don't solve the issue that you can't use the ability in a fairly large number of encounters. Unless it's changed to something like Soul Communion, which was already suggested.

 

Why not? It's flesh after all; maybe not as tasty as fresh kith meat and such, but still edible (or drinkable if we're talking oozes, I guess). Arguably not all Vessels have flesh on them, but it would get a bit finicky to have to make subtypes of Vessels for this. Besides, there might be some good marrow left in a skeleton's bones, and maybe gnawing on them might be sufficient as well. The game is slightly vague on how this "gaining their power" actually works lore-wise. Presumably it's more mystical or psychological rather than in some way a physiological side effect of them eating the flesh, since it happens instantly; no digestive system works that fast, and even absorbtion of something into the blood stream wouldn't be that quick. So in terms of lore, as long as there's something physically there to consume it can easily be justified in some way. And certainly, combined with the idea of varying the bonus by meat type, perhaps have Vessels not give any HP gain to signify the inferior quality of flesh, or lack of proper flesh altogether.

 

As I recall, some of the 'special' food you can make with Corpse Eater bonuses acually uses Vessel Flesh as an ingredient as well, so it's hardly unprecedented in that sense either. And it would mostly solve the issue of not being able to use the ability in many encounters, only ones with only or predominantly spirits would remain an exception. Mechanically, combined with the crit thing it would solve a lot of problems with the current version of the class.



#13
Haplok

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Not only oozes pose a problem. Good luck eating raw Lurker or Dwrga bark/wood. Or construct bronze/iron. Rotten, toxic flesh of a rotghast is not particularly healthy either, I imagine. Bone marrow from skeletons? Now that's a rich diet. Not that much would be left after some decades.



#14
gkathellar

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Eating Vessels and Primordials doesn't make much sense, though. The other suggestions are fine. But don't solve the issue that you can't use the ability in a fairly large number of encounters. Unless it's changed to something like Soul Communion, which was already suggested.

 

The problem is this: you can either set aside the question of "does it make sense" and not worry about it, or you can have a subclass that's nonfunctional in a pretty large percentage of fights.

 

Question of priorities. /le shrug.



#15
Haplok

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Personally I would rather opt for redesigning the class around ideas like Boeroer's Soul Communion, rather then chew on iron, bark or bone.



#16
Loren Tyr

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I can't see them doing that though, if nothing else because a) it doesn't fit the description of the subclass in terms of flavour, they're corpse eaters after all, and b) switching to passive, automatic consumption on kill is a much larger change mechanically than simply giving more food options, and rather changes the class. The rest of the ability would have to be rebalanced around it as well, just getting +3 Rage and 50 base HP would definitely be too much if it's on kill. It also removes the ability to consume corpses killed by others (unless it applies to all nearby kills, but that would require even more drastic rebalancing). 

 

Obviously point b) can be gotten around by just keeping the mechanics the same (but applied to all dead enemies). But then it's mostly just the change I proposed plus an awkward shift in flavour, in which case there doesn't seem much reason to change the flavour at all. They can just keep that as is, and just change what enemies can be consumed (just leaving out spirits). As said, in terms of flavour there is plenty of room to include Vessels and Primordials. We can easily interpret what they do as absorbing some of whatever animated their slain enemy (souls for the most part, but I'm not sure for example Oozes actually have those) by physically ingesting part of them. Clearly there's something rather supernatural going on there anyway, so that's as good an explanation as any. They eat part of their enemy and gain some of their power from it, that it's not technically 'flesh' in all cases should be that big of an issue I should think. 

 

As for it being unhealthy: sure, probably. But given that they are already engaging in cannibalism and such, I rather doubt that's much of an obstacle for them. And I'd imagine eating, say, Dwgra bark is actually less harmful than eating raw kith flesh.



#17
mant2si

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or they can leave rage and just give barbarian buff and debuff depend on eaten meat until next rest or 500s.
You eat human meat (randomly chosen heart, brain ...) you get bonus to Int, Resolve ... and debuff for Might, Constitution
You eat beast meat (randomly chosen hear, brain) you get bonus to Strength, Constitution and debuff for Int, Resolve
You eat dragon meat, you get dragon breath ...

They can even make this ability work in battle some like Corpse-Eater bite 3 rage, 50HP, Raw Damage DOT .... :D

The bonus will works for all battles 


Edited by mant2si, 13 July 2018 - 05:40 AM.


#18
Boeroer

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But secondly, and perhaps even more annoyingly, you can't eat anything that died from a crit. Especially for Barbarian, that's rather unfortunate given the assorted crit-enhancing abilities the class has.

Turn off the gib option in the game options menu - then you can eat all killed enemies (I mean kith/wilder/beast of course), no matter how they died (except Dintegration). It's the same with White Worms and Death's Maw and so on: doesn't work on exploded enemies and enemeis that leave no corpse. Gib option is the first thing I turn off - even before turning off companion auto-leveling. It's ridiculous anyway: exploding enemies on crits? Yeeeeah... meeeeh...


Edited by Boeroer, 13 July 2018 - 05:56 AM.


#19
arkane83

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But secondly, and perhaps even more annoyingly, you can't eat anything that died from a crit. Especially for Barbarian, that's rather unfortunate given the assorted crit-enhancing abilities the class has.

Turn off the gib option in the game options menu - then you can eat all killed enemies (I mean kith/wilder/beast of course), no matter how they died (except Dintegration). It's the same with White Worms and Death's Maw and so on: doesn't work on exploded enemies and enemeis that leave no corpse. Gib option is the first thing I turn off - even before turning off companion auto-leveling. It's ridiculous anyway: exploding enemies on crits? Yeeeeah... meeeeh...

 

 

My Holy Slayer has a hand mortar that completely disagrees with turning off gibs.

 

There is something just super satisfying about a fiery flames of devotion dual wield blunderbus explosion that instantly explodes half of the enemies in front of me.


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#20
Boeroer

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Still nonsense. It's sufficient if they just drop dead. Which hand mortar of renaissance times lets people explode - even when pimped by a bit of a burning lash? Even with a Fireball it doesn't make sense: let them bun to ashes and then collapse into dust, ok - but exploding into gore? Eh... it would be a nice effect on some special weapons (ogres' cannons for example) or when using powerful bombs, but letting people explode on EVERY crit (that kills) - no matter the weapon/ability? Go-go stiletto-stab: BOOM! Meeeeeh!!! I get it's a nostalgia thing because of BG and so on. But that's not enough of a reason for me to keep it active.
 
And the main point was of course: it really hurts your Corpse Eater. :)

Edited by Boeroer, 13 July 2018 - 06:55 AM.






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