Patch 1.2 Paladins

[Anaeme]

Folks

 

Paladins have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed to the extent that the class can no longer be recognized for what it should be.

 

Paladins should be a fully standalone martial class with extraordinary defensive capabilities of divine origin. That was why backers specifically demanded the class during the PoE 1 Kickstarter.

 

What we see now is a watered down wannabe priest..

 

• Their base deflection was nerfed beyond recognition. 
• You cant touch sacred immolation unless you want to commit suicide
• Their exhortation have such a shortened base duration that there is no point using them
• Players really are better off picking a fighter 

 

This is what happens when nerfing is the primary mechanism used to balance a game. Classes get completely hollowed out. I have no idea whose lot at Obsidian it is to carry out this kind of task, but the results are poor indeed.

 

 

On  another note, We backers also have to accept blame for some of these undesired outcomes. There are folks in this community who constantly show up to whine whenever a class features an ability that actually works. For them the game must always be a grind. No room for smart character design, or synergy between abilities in a party. Anything that works is overpowered. It is terrible. 

 

As a result these selfish people ruin the game for everyone. The funny thing is when you call these people out on their nonsense, you discover they are not even playing the game...their noise is coming from paper calculations of what they think is happening in the game.

 

The only solution as I see it is for the devs to reduce their reliance on nerfing as a means of balancing the game. The focus should be more on tuning encounters to meet the desired level of challenge

Edited July 4, 2018 by Anaeme

[heldred]

Option 1: Make all classes fun and effective to play = 5x work

Option 2: Nerf the fun classes = 1x work

 

Unfortunately, most dev teams go for Option #2.

 

The only nerfs should be for classes and abilities that have the ability to one-shot bosses (e.g. Monks).

[ManifestedISO]

Deep Faith alone is an extraordinary defensive capablility, my 1.2 Bleak Walker gets +15 to all defenses at lvl 10, higher Deflection than the fighter or anyone else in the party

 

Exalted Endurance or whatever gives the whole party +1 AR plus a healing factor 

 

Paladins seem squared away, distinct and efficient to me

[Manveru123]

Paladin is a bad single class but a fantastic multi, for both damage and support purpose.

[djinnxy]

Paladin is still one of the top classes single or multi. They are moving in the right direction to differentiate between priest and paladin with LoH cost. (Note that I'm never in favor of nerfing a pc for balance unless it's something that is extremely broken. eg. perpetual crit procs.) It should also heal for less. The deflection and armor boost should be buffed slightly. At that point you are moving back in the direction of a stand alone class. It will still tank for a long time on it's own but will require outside heals.

 

That's where priests come in. Either priests need more heals per rest or paladin needs a buff to healing received. Perhaps a bit of both. On a tangent idea the buff to healing received could tie in to faith and conviction. Others have complained that faith and conviction is broken even though it is less of a buff than the first game. It could also depend on how closely the paladin aligns with the priest sub-class. I don't take credit for the ideas. You can blame years of various dnd games.

[no1fanboy]

Deep Faith alone is an extraordinary defensive capablility, my 1.2 Bleak Walker gets +15 to all defenses at lvl 10, higher Deflection than the fighter or anyone else in the party

 

Exalted Endurance or whatever gives the whole party +1 AR plus a healing factor 

 

Paladins seem squared away, distinct and efficient to me

This isnt true at all. Fighters get a very cheap resource cost ability that instantly adds plus 20 to all defenses for a decent duration.

 

There is no point in rolling a paladin. In there current state they have three broken ability skill trees including all there upgrades including:

 

- Hastening exortation is a complete joke. A high level buff that adds +5 Dex?? This is no where near worth using 

- Reviving exhortation killls the person you revive nearly 100% of the time after 15 seconds. I cant keep them alive longer then that and ive tried numerous times

- Self immolation is a complete no brainer to avoid at all costs. Even is you do stack reflex high enough to avoid full hits with it why would you want to do that? A wizard casting a fireball doesnt do himslef damage when he does it WTF is a paladin doing copping such huge  damage to himself?

 

All these skill trees involving these three active abilities are currently broken. Flames of devotion is also pretty crappy after they nerfed it 20 times. 

 

I stay away from Paladins they suck bigtime

Edited July 5, 2018 by no1fanboy

[dunehunter]

They shall put all exhortation into one ability, just like fighter stance and zealot area. To me there are no reason to take these exhortation but I have no other options in mid-high level progress. No coordinated attack, no Deprive the Unworthy, sadly.

[Purudaya]

edit: double post
 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Purudaya

[Purudaya]

Folks

 

Paladins have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed to the extent that the class can no longer be recognized for what it should be.

 

Paladins should be a fully standalone martial class with extraordinary defensive capabilities of divine origin. That was why backers specifically demanded the class during the PoE 1 Kickstarter.

 

What we see now is a watered down wannabe priest..

 

• Their base deflection was nerfed beyond recognition. 
• You cant touch sacred immolation unless you want to commit suicide
• Their exhortation have such a shortened base duration that there is no point using them
• Players really are better off picking a fighter 

 

This is what happens when nerfing is the primary mechanism used to balance a game. Classes get completely hollowed out. I have no idea whose lot at Obsidian it is to carry out this kind of task, but the results are poor indeed.

 

 

On  another note, We backers also have to accept blame for some of these undesired outcomes. There are folks in this community who constantly show up to whine whenever a class features an ability that actually works. For them the game must always be a grind. No room for smart character design, or synergy between abilities in a party. Anything that works is overpowered. It is terrible. 

 

As a result these selfish people ruin the game for everyone. The funny thing is when you call these people out on their nonsense, you discover they are not even playing the game...their noise is coming from paper calculations of what they think is happening in the game.

 

The only solution as I see it is for the devs to reduce their reliance on nerfing as a means of balancing the game. The focus should be more on tuning encounters to meet the desired level of challenge

 

 

Paladins are great damage dealers (sworn enemy + flames) and are still the only class than can reliably regenerate its resource throughout combat (and yes, gaining zeal on every single kill was ridiculous and needed to be nerfed). The auras are solid and also apply to the Paladin, so s/he can switch between passive self-buffs modally without any zeal cost. I'd say once sacred immolation is fixed they'll be about equally matched to a fighter, they just serve a different role.

 

As for nerfs more broadly, they were badly needed as multiple abilities were single-handedly making other classes irrelevant. Did you ever try using charge/flagellant's path through a crowd of enemies with mob stance/swift flurry (or BOTH) enabled? It was basically just an instant fountain of gore. 

 

I don't like some of the nerfs (backstab) and think others could still use slight tuning (persistent distraction, stunning surge, maybe the resource cost of enduring dance), but to say that that's all the devs are doing is objectively wrong: several classes just got a much-needed round of buffs, and this probably won't be the last round of balancing in either direction. And even if you or I don't agree with some of the individual changes, the game as a whole is moving in a better direction for them - unless...does anyone actually think 1.0 was a more balanced and well-rounded experience than 1.2?

 

I'm having way more fun strategizing with the new trickster and cipher multis than I ever did wiping the entire board with a fighter/monk or proccing infinite zeal as a paladin/streetfighter. It's not about being "selfish" and killing your fun, it's about wanting a game where all classes are equally viable. It's not there yet (by a long shot), but it's a heck of a lot closer than it was at release.

 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Purudaya

[no1fanboy]

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

[Purudaya]

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

 

Neither do a ranger and a pet if we're going by classic CRPG/D&D standards (eh, there was the beastmaster subclass, but pet+ranged was hardly class-defining). Paladins have been able to alternate between off-tanking and solid DPS since PoE1.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Purudaya

[Vitalis]

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

D&D 3.5 Paladin with a two handed weapon is a beast of built correctly, doubly so since the chances of you fighting an evil enemy is pretty damn high. The same goes for Pathfinder and 5e.

[no1fanboy]

 

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

 

Neither do a ranger and a pet if we're going by classic CRPG/D&D standards (eh, there was the beastmaster subclass, but pet+ranged was hardly class-defining). Paladins have been able to alternate between off-tanking and solid DPS since PoE1.

 

I would have thought that currently in terms of DPS in Deadfire:

 

1. Rogue.

2. Monk

3. Wizard

4.Druid

5. Barbarian

6. Cipher

7. Ranger

fighter

8. Priest

9 . Paladin

 

I putting priest above paladin becasue they get holy fire, shining beacon

Edited July 5, 2018 by no1fanboy

[anathanielh]

 

 

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

Neither do a ranger and a pet if we're going by classic CRPG/D&D standards (eh, there was the beastmaster subclass, but pet+ranged was hardly class-defining). Paladins have been able to alternate between off-tanking and solid DPS since PoE1.

I would have thought that currently in terms of DPS in Deadfire:

 

1. Rogue.

2. Monk

3. Wizard

4.Druid

5. Barbarian

6. Cipher

7. Ranger

8. Priest

9 . Paladin

 

I putting priest above paladin becasue they get holy fire, shining beacon

You forgot fighter and I think Paladins gain most of their damage potential from multiclass (Although I guess that doesnt count) and dual wield (full attack FoD + extra if you’re bleak walker + shared flames gives party and self dmg)

[Purudaya]

 

 

 

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

Neither do a ranger and a pet if we're going by classic CRPG/D&D standards (eh, there was the beastmaster subclass, but pet+ranged was hardly class-defining). Paladins have been able to alternate between off-tanking and solid DPS since PoE1.

I would have thought that currently in terms of DPS in Deadfire:

 

1. Rogue.

2. Monk

3. Wizard

4.Druid

5. Barbarian

6. Cipher

7. Ranger

8. Priest

9 . Paladin

 

I putting priest above paladin becasue they get holy fire, shining beacon

You forgot fighter and I think Paladins gain most of their damage potential from multiclass (Although I guess that doesnt count) and dual wield (full attack FoD + extra if you’re bleak walker + shared flames gives party and self dmg)

 

 

That's the subclass configuration I tested. One-handed or two-handed styles benefit significantly less from FoD and so traditional Greatsword/sword-and-board paladins probably do have some trouble in the DPS department. But I would argue that that's true of most one-handed/two-handed builds vs two-weapon, which is more a problem of poor game mechanics re: full attack than of paladins specifically. 

[anathanielh]

 

 

 

 

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

Neither do a ranger and a pet if we're going by classic CRPG/D&D standards (eh, there was the beastmaster subclass, but pet+ranged was hardly class-defining). Paladins have been able to alternate between off-tanking and solid DPS since PoE1.

I would have thought that currently in terms of DPS in Deadfire:

 

1. Rogue.

2. Monk

3. Wizard

4.Druid

5. Barbarian

6. Cipher

7. Ranger

8. Priest

9 . Paladin

 

I putting priest above paladin becasue they get holy fire, shining beacon

You forgot fighter and I think Paladins gain most of their damage potential from multiclass (Although I guess that doesnt count) and dual wield (full attack FoD + extra if you’re bleak walker + shared flames gives party and self dmg)

 

 

That's the subclass configuration I tested. One-handed or two-handed styles benefit significantly less from FoD and so traditional Greatsword/sword-and-board paladins probably do have some trouble in the DPS department. But I would argue that that's true of most one-handed/two-handed builds vs two-weapon, which is more a problem of poor game mechanics re: full attack than of paladins specifically. 

 

Ya, it's a real shame, but I was able to get through my first run of PotD with a quarterstaff paladin as an offtank support and had fun with it. I'm starting my second run after the expansion comes out and I plan to run either a greatsword or one-handed+buckler combo multiclass paladin. Paladins are one of the few classes that can multiclass with anything imo and still be relatively forgiving in terms of role and defenses.

[no1fanboy]

anyone can use any class to complete potd 

 

it is not relevant you where able to do it with a paladin

[anathanielh]

anyone can use any class to complete potd

 

it is not relevant you where able to do it with a paladin

You are absolutely correct, but like I said, I still found it pretty forgiving that I could run around with a robe and a stick and still be a functional tank.

It’s my experiences with them that make me think they are in a good place despite the nerfs.

[no1fanboy]

they fixed the balancing for POTD about 2 weeks ago

 

you cant run around with a robe and tank anymore

[anathanielh]

they fixed the balancing for POTD about 2 weeks ago

 

you cant run around with a robe and tank anymore

Alright. Thanks for the heads up, my dude.

[Teacher]

Sacred immolation is the only thing that I don't like about paladins at the moment. Doesn't feel worth its cost.

 

...then again, I never liked abilities that hurt the user anyway so it may just be me being irrational.

[Manveru123]

 

 

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

 

Neither do a ranger and a pet if we're going by classic CRPG/D&D standards (eh, there was the beastmaster subclass, but pet+ranged was hardly class-defining). Paladins have been able to alternate between off-tanking and solid DPS since PoE1.

 

I would have thought that currently in terms of DPS in Deadfire:

 

1. Rogue.

2. Monk

3. Wizard

4.Druid

5. Barbarian

6. Cipher

7. Ranger

fighter

8. Priest

9 . Paladin

 

I putting priest above paladin becasue they get holy fire, shining beacon

 

Sir, you must be high.

 

Have you ever tried a Bleak Walker built for Fire damage? With Magran's Favor, Sungrazer, Fire Acc ring etc? Anything that isn't immune to Burn damage gets obliterated. Flames of Devotion is very strong if you supplement it with gear and talents.

 

This is exactly why Paladin is so strong as a multiclass. His early game abilities are incredibly strong, but mid-to late abilities suck, so mid-to late you just pick passives, which Paladin has a lot

Edited July 5, 2018 by Manveru123

[arkane83]

 

Deep Faith alone is an extraordinary defensive capablility, my 1.2 Bleak Walker gets +15 to all defenses at lvl 10, higher Deflection than the fighter or anyone else in the party

 

Exalted Endurance or whatever gives the whole party +1 AR plus a healing factor

 

Paladins seem squared away, distinct and efficient to me

This isnt true at all. Fighters get a very cheap resource cost ability that instantly adds plus 20 to all defenses for a decent duration.

 

There is no point in rolling a paladin. In there current state they have three broken ability skill trees including all there upgrades including:

 

- Hastening exortation is a complete joke. A high level buff that adds +5 Dex?? This is no where near worth using

- Reviving exhortation killls the person you revive nearly 100% of the time after 15 seconds. I cant keep them alive longer then that and ive tried numerous times

- Self immolation is a complete no brainer to avoid at all costs. Even is you do stack reflex high enough to avoid full hits with it why would you want to do that? A wizard casting a fireball doesnt do himslef damage when he does it WTF is a paladin doing copping such huge damage to himself?

 

All these skill trees involving these three active abilities are currently broken. Flames of devotion is also pretty crappy after they nerfed it 20 times.

 

I stay away from Paladins they suck bigtime

The fighter defense boost is an active ability that gets overwritten by other active abilities.

 

Deep Faith is a passive that STACKS WITH EVERYTHING.

 

A max resolve Arcane Knight, Holy Slayer, or Crusader are going to be able to have better deflection than anyone.

 

Comparing an active ability to a passive ability shows that you dont understand the way this game works. Deep Faith is one of the best passives in the game. It let's you safely dump resolve for other attributes without becoming a paper tiger. You can also use it the other way to become a monster of a tank by stacking resolve and other defensive abilities.

 

Paladins are my favorite class, and I actually love being rewarded for roleplaying a certain way. Paladins are a hybrid tank, striker, and healer which makes them extremely impactful in combat. I personally find them so incredibly useful that I almost think they need more nerfs...

Edited July 5, 2018 by arkane83

[no1fanboy]

define overwritten?

 

fighter gets unbending aswel

Edited July 5, 2018 by no1fanboy

[MrMoe]

I really liked the niche Pallegina filled in my group. I didn't want to bring a priest which lacks some martial prowess, but needed some support,  mostly healing.

So she stood at the front line with her 2handed sword, plate armor and dished out nice damage, and buffs when needed. 

 

At least late game she fills that role very well without being a pushover either. 

 

If I'd respec her with a more defensive build in mind, I'm sure she would even surpass the pure fighter in certain areas, as there are some paladin only feats that give nice resistance and immunities a fighter cannot access.