Politics Thread - Ka-tet of 19

[Agiel]

Trump claims Americans need ID to buy groceries.

 

har har.

 

 

Maybe it's just me being some "college-educated littoral elite-type", but I never really got Trump's appeal to the "salt-o-the-earth" crowd since I found the act as transparently disingenuous as Clinton's attempt at a southern drawl. Every time Trump goes to one of those rallies I can't help but think back to Mayor Quimby at the beginning of a certain Simpsons episode:

 

 

Except replace "drink" with "stiff Diet Coke".

Edited August 1, 2018 by Agiel

[Elerond]

 

UBI would give unemployed people incentive to take even low paying part time jobs because their income then would increase compared to current situation where their unemployment/social benefit is cut down for amount they earn, meaning that taking part time jobs that don't pay more than what their benefit is don't really increase their income compared to them just sitting in home or where ever they prefer to spent their time.

Interesting that Finnish people still get unemployment insurance payout even when working part time. Its not like that here. As soon as you get any job of any pay of any amount of hours, your unemployment insurance payout stops. I assume this a call back to your earlier statement about UBI already existing in other forms. So, what is the annual UBI amount that Finn's receive? Do you get a check from the government even if you work full time (40+h / week)?

 

 

about 600 euros in month and 70% of rent/housing costs to certain point (which changes somewhat depending where person lives in Finland).

 

 

You get check even regardless how much you work if your income is less than said 600 euros. For example quite lot of telemarketer get unemployment benefits even though they work full time, because their contracts say they get certain percentage of sales they do, which some times can mean that they earn less than 600 euros in month.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Elerond

[Gromnir]

OK, Gromnir. Let's come at this a different way. Explain WHY competitive market forces (such as those that exist in vet care, automotive repair, etc) would not reduce costs to human health care consumers? How would elimination of territorial exclusivity for insurance companies allowing any insurance provider to sell health plans anywhere (like vet insurance or automotive extended warranties) not reduce the costs of insurance plans? How could punitive damage reform not reduce the cost of malpractice insurance? 

 

Health care, in the end, is just another product. A widget. A service people buy and sell. There are many reasons why the prices are high. One of those is that there is 0 incentive to lower them. How could allowing the incentive to exist, as is does in other services, not help?

changes in punitive damages have nothing to do with veterinary medicine.  animal doctors in 2018 are similar subject to punitive damages as is auto makers or fast food chains, and as already stated by Gromnir and others, market forces do not work same for HUMAN health care.  exploit market forces is exact why pharma bro got himself in trouble, and why even bigger pharmaceutical companies may charge +400% o' their production and r&d costs for specific meds-- when people will pay anything for a widget, supply and demand is no longer a useful model.  the most costly aspect o' the current healthcare model (please reread the pbs link we provided earlier) is due to predictable behavior o' market forces.  each insurance provider already negotiates for costs separate resulting in enormous billing and administrative costs. also, territorial exclusivity is already a factor in many veterinary practices.  unlike medical insurance plans, veterinary clinics and hospitals is typical small businesses and they is frequent the only provider in town, or county or whatever.  

 

etc.

 

is a horrible analogy.

 

wana discuss specific solutions to the health care problem? okie dokie, but animal medicine model is not analogous.  worse, is misleading.  suggest same science behind treatment o' animals should result in similar results for treatment o' people complete ignores reality.

 

gd proposed solutions is not new or revolutionary.  unfortunate, each "solution" results in a whole new set o' problems.  example: wrongful death and malpractice ain't reliant on punitive damages to be inspiring fear in doctors such that they test for everything jic.  even so, you wanna change punitive and then what happens the next time an automaker discovers a fatal flaw in a car they is already producing? car builders estimates likely number o' fails and then calculates smaller % o' resulting lawsuits and the cost to settle such lawsuits. if mitigation costs is less than X (a value which would decrease profits beyond an acceptable level), then is no need to repair the fatal flaw and the lethal car remains in production.  society has determined such reasonable and rational business calculus to be unacceptable, and for good reason.  oh, and most malpractice insurance wouldn't cover punitive damages as insurance, by definition, covers accident.  a doctor or hospital engaged in willful bad behavior won't be able to use insurance to cover punitive damages save in extreme rare circumstances. sure, punitive damages is a busted model, but suggest solution is simple is straightforward or in anyway related to veterinary medicine model is patent ridiculous. 

 

healthcare for Humans is an extreme complex problem.  during attempted obamacare repeal, trump mentioned how he were surprised by how difficult and complex the problems o' healthcare were... his surprise were not surprising.  each thread gd pulls is gonna unravel two or three more threads, which is ok.  however, is an abject fail to indulge in oversimplifications such as analogizing to animal healthcare.  such shenanigans should be verboten.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

Jeez, 7200 Euro a year just for existing! I would be tempted to open a post office box to receive my loot, build a cabin in the woods, and just chill for the rest of my life. Im pretty sure 600 Euro per month would keep me fed and probably drunk too.

[HoonDing]

"Jeez, 7200 Euro a year just for existing!"

 

Otoh you're also taxed for breathing in air.

Edited August 1, 2018 by HoonDing

[Gfted1]

Finland taxes people on their UBI?

[Elerond]

Finland taxes people on their UBI?

 

We have 24% of VAT

[Gfted1]

So 456 Euro out the door. Still not too shabby. That leaves me 114 / week for food and booze. Totally doable in my cabin. Maybe even enough left over for a fishing pole and a bear pet.

[Zoraptor]

The Turkish Interior and Justice ministers have been sanctioned by the US at least ostensibly over the detention of a pastor post coup attempt, though it probably has as much to do with Turkey being mean to Israel most recently over Israel's Apartheid Law which passed last week, plus backing Qatar (and hence annoying Saudi) and buying S400 from Russia. First time a NATO ally has been sanctioned by the US, I believe.

[Malcador]

So 456 Euro out the door. Still not too shabby. That leaves me 114 / week for food and booze. Totally doable in my cabin. Maybe even enough left over for a fishing pole and a bear pet.

VAT is sales tax no? And not 24% on everything, so maybe more than that

Edited August 2, 2018 by Malcador

[Gfted1]

Aww yeah, then maybe I can pick myself up a sweet solar panel too!

 

Honestly, I hate being in nature. But Ive watched enough Alone to figure that, if push comes to shove, I can pull it off with a few essentials.

[Hurlshort]

I like how Gfted's attempt at living off the government's dime has morphed into him living off the grid as a survivalist.

[Gfted1]

Eh, its only $500 bucks a month! Im not, and do not want to ever have to be, a survivalist. Im just working with the tools I have in this discussion.

[majestic]

So 456 Euro out the door. Still not too shabby. That leaves me 114 / week for food and booze. Totally doable in my cabin. Maybe even enough left over for a fishing pole and a bear pet.

 

 Nah. Finland's famous for their terribly expensive booze.

[Elerond]

 

So 456 Euro out the door. Still not too shabby. That leaves me 114 / week for food and booze. Totally doable in my cabin. Maybe even enough left over for a fishing pole and a bear pet.

 

 Nah. Finland's famous for their terribly expensive booze.

 

 

Ferry to Tallinn (Estonia) cost only 20€ and where you can still buy cheap booze even though they rised their alcohol taxes.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Elerond

[Gfted1]

Dangit! Will you guys stop harshing my pipe dreams! Im really, really, really ready to stop working and just relax for the rest of my life.

 

Question; if some plot of land is "government owned", can I just go pop a squat there? 

[Gromnir]

am willing to consider living off-the-grid, just as soon as we figure a way to squeeze our current kitchen into a unabomberesque shack in the woods.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Azdeus]

Dangit! Will you guys stop harshing my pipe dreams! Im really, really, really ready to stop working and just relax for the rest of my life.

 

Question; if some plot of land is "government owned", can I just go pop a squat there?

Not 100% certain about the Finnish law, but here in Sweden it is very losely expressed at "Don’t disturb – Don’t destroy", so if you think you can pop a squat somewhere without disturbing or destroying... Also, you may not stay for more than a day or two at a time, so you'll have to be moving around alot.

[Malcador]

Just claim you're a black metal artist and no one will hassle you in the woods.

[Guard Dog]

I have had a fascination with the concept of a completely "off grid" home for a long time. One that has no connection to public utility at all and such services as it has are delivered wirelessly. It's certainly doable. But it requires a little bit of thought, a pretty hefty initial investment, and a few trade offs. You will not be able to have all the modern amenities you have now. Sorry Grom, don't know what your kitchen looks like but I'm betting it's nice and draws far more power than you will be able to generate on your own.

 

One thing about it though, you will need to own your own land. Because to do it with a level of comfort and convenience you'll need to do some construction. If you're cool with the unpowered shack in the woods however, that's not hard to do:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYCUljsrDg

 

I LOVE that house though

[Chilloutman]

i was watching his videos for some time, I am fascinated by off grid as well

[Lexx]

Sure sounds cool, but I need my 100mb/s internet and a toilet that I can flush.

[Guard Dog]

Sure sounds cool, but I need my 100mb/s internet and a toilet that I can flush.

You can have both. The former through your mobility/wireless service. The latter with a little bit of ingenuity.

[Elerond]

 

Sure sounds cool, but I need my 100mb/s internet and a toilet that I can flush.

You can have both. The former through your mobility/wireless service. The latter with a little bit of ingenuity.

 

 

Yeah I have off grid cabin where I have solar panels for electricity and 300mb/s internet (thanks to excellent 4G coverage), although I don't have flushing toilet (even though that would have been somewhat easy to do as I have waterfront property and I already have pump that gets non-drinking water from the lake) because I decided to go with drying one as it is safer during winters (no risk for pipes frozing) and it gives me fertilizer for my garden and still much more confortable than outhouse.

[Guard Dog]

I have an idea for a exterior bathroom/bath house that uses a septic tank for waste water disposal and a rainwater catch system and solar heater rather than plumbing/water utility/well connection. About a year ago I was looking at some land in Wyoming that was just dirt cheap (and remote with a capital R) but has Platte river access. I was considering trying to build a completely off grid and self sustaining farm. Then I woke up and realized that although the land is cheap, the idea surely is not! Maybe someday though.