having 20 bonus accuracy equals to....

[nemesis205bw]

I did some calculations and came to conclusion that having 20 bonus accuracy equals to having around 40% bonus damage or 60%+ on POTD. It is crazy. If your base chance to hit is 50% and with 20 bonus accuracy its about 70%, then that equals 40% more dps.

 

For this reason the highest dps is achieved by ranger + cipher multiclass. Ranger mark + wounding shot + passives is 60 accuracy. Add to it cipher buff +20 accuracy (currently strongest accuracy buff) and you have 80 accuracy advantage which gives you up to 800% more dps than other classes without those buffs. The funniest part is all of those buffs except wounding shot accuracy buff works with cipher spells, so you can land whisper of treason on marked target with almost 100% chance and it will crit most of the time for huge duration.

 

So to take strongest enemy on your side do the following:

- mark the target and send pet towards it

- use borrowed instinct which will land because of that +34 accuracy from ranger and +10 extra accuracy from cipher passive. It will also debuff its will by 16 points

- use whisper of treason with that juicy 86 bonus accuracy (mark, pet, cipher passive, ranger passive, borrowed instinct +20acc, borrowed instinct -16 will on target)

-enjoy your strong ally

 

This takes about 5 seconds to do at the start of combat.

Edited June 6, 2018 by nemesis205bw

[dunehunter]

Ranger is the king of accuracy in DF.

[Maxzero]

Sadly the most important stat for Casters is Accuracy.

 

One of the biggest mistakes from PoE1->PoE2 is removing spell bonus accuracy. Yes spell per encounter is nice but missing major spells feels so bad. Especially when there isn't anything you can do about it (many early debuffs focus on Deflection which spells rarely target).

 

About the only early non spell save debuffs are the weapon modals: Club (-25 will), Flail (-25 reflex) or Morningstar (-25 Fort) which can be really tricky for casters to apply.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[Archaven]

Sadly the most important stat for Casters is Accuracy.

 

One of the biggest mistakes from PoE1->PoE2 is removing spell bonus accuracy. Yes spell per encounter is nice but missing major spells feels so bad. Especially when there isn't anything you can do about it (many early debuffs focus on Deflection which spells rarely target).

 

About the only early non spell save debuffs are the weapon modals: Club (-25 will), Flail (-25 reflex) or Morningstar (-25 Fort) which can be really tricky for casters to apply.

 

now as caster you need to use drugs and alchemy. otherwise good luck in landing your spells. the only spells i choose now are mostly buffs on my party. the only useful spells are aoe with duration like chillfog for example.  i agree for using drugs for very hard battle. but even for normal battle you have to use it, i think it's absurd. i understand you need to use drugs, bombs, poison but those should only applicable for hard battles. not for every battle.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Archaven

[Maxzero]

 

Sadly the most important stat for Casters is Accuracy.

 

One of the biggest mistakes from PoE1->PoE2 is removing spell bonus accuracy. Yes spell per encounter is nice but missing major spells feels so bad. Especially when there isn't anything you can do about it (many early debuffs focus on Deflection which spells rarely target).

 

About the only early non spell save debuffs are the weapon modals: Club (-25 will), Flail (-25 reflex) or Morningstar (-25 Fort) which can be really tricky for casters to apply.

 

now as caster you need to use drugs and alchemy. otherwise good luck in landing your spells. the only spells i choose now are mostly buffs on my party. the only useful spells are aoe with duration like chillfog for example.

 

 

I have thought about a Warlock build (Barb/Wizard - no subclasses for either) that uses Wizard spells to boost Deflection and armour (to not die in melee) and DWs a Club and Flail to AoE apply (through Carnage) -25 Will and -25 Reflex. Frenzy gives a nice Con, Might and action speed buff (and procs Nature Godlike too).

 

Just worried about fragility in the early game in Deadfire 1.1

Edited June 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[Haplok]

I doubt the modal effects would get transferred on Carnage?

[Dr <3]

You can even use pala: mark enemy for +10 accuracy, and devotion for the faithful gives another +10 every hit. You also have +6 acc aura and probably domething else i forgot.

 

 

Btw i think your calculation have something wrong, you didn't consider the "roof effect": more you pump accuracy,more crits you have and less miss you have, that gives you "more dmg".

But once you reach the point to get 100% crits ( 100 accuracy over enemy defences) you don't get more dmg anymore, also if you stack another 1000 accuracy point. And more you go near 100% crits, less dmg improvemnt you will se for every point of accuracy.

 

TL, DR : you can't stack accuracy at infinite to get more dmg, doesn't work that way.

[Maxzero]

I doubt the modal effects would get transferred on Carnage?

 

Apparently they are. Have not tested personally though.

[Dr <3]

I doubt the modal effects would get transferred on Carnage?

Only way to debuff in an area is using whisper of endless paths or Wahai Pōraga ( unique pollaxe). Carnage doesn't work anymore as poe 1, now it do only raw dmg on area, no status effect

[youspoonybard]

 

I doubt the modal effects would get transferred on Carnage?

Only way to debuff in an area is using whisper of endless paths or Wahai Pōraga ( unique pollaxe). Carnage doesn't work anymore as poe 1, now it do only raw dmg on area, no status effect

 

Heart of Fury...

[Kaylon]

I did some calculations and came to conclusion that having 20 bonus accuracy equals to having around 40% bonus damage or 60%+ on POTD. It is crazy. If your base chance to hit is 50% and with 20 bonus accuracy its about 70%, then that equals 40% more dps.

It doesn't work like that...

I will consider the average situation where your accuracy equal to the enemy's deflection. That means your attacks will be: 15%misses, 35% grazes and 50%hits. If you add 20 accuracy it will become: 30% grazes, 50% hits and 20% crits.

 

In the first scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.35 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses) + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.675 + 0.85 * dmg bonuses)

 

In the second scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.3 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses) + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses) + .2 * (1.25 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.9 + dmg bonuses)

 

In the case of a ranger/cipher how much dmg bonuses you can have? 60% from weapon, 20% soul whip and maybe 30% from might ie 110%. If we compare the two scenarios the dps increase will be:

(0.9 + 1.1) / (0.675 + 0.85 * 1.1) = 2/1.61 = 1.24

 

That means only a 24% dps increase from +20 accuracy...

[Boeroer]

 

I doubt the modal effects would get transferred on Carnage?

Apparently they are. Have not tested personally though.

No they are not. Carnage does not transfer modal "afflictions" like Body Blows etc. What works is Charge (pre 1.1) and Clear Out (plus upgrades). Those are the only two abilities I could find that apply Body Blows (morning star modal) in an AoE. At least that's with game version 1.0.2

Edited June 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[youspoonybard]

 

I did some calculations and came to conclusion that having 20 bonus accuracy equals to having around 40% bonus damage or 60%+ on POTD. It is crazy. If your base chance to hit is 50% and with 20 bonus accuracy its about 70%, then that equals 40% more dps.

It doesn't work like that...

I will consider the average situation where your accuracy equal to the enemy's deflection. That means your attacks will be: 15%misses, 35% grazes and 50%hits. If you add 20 accuracy it will become: 30% grazes, 50% hits and 20% crits.

 

In the first scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.35 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses) + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.675 + 0.85 * dmg bonuses)

 

In the second scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.3 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses) + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses) + .2 * (1.25 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.9 + dmg bonuses)

 

In the case of a ranger/cipher how much dmg bonuses you can have? 60% from weapon, 20% soul whip and maybe 30% from might ie 110%. If we compare the two scenarios the dps increase will be:

(0.9 + 1.1) / (0.675 + 0.85 * 1.1) = 2/1.61 = 1.24

 

That means only a 24% dps increase from +20 accuracy...

 

He assumed 50% misses though, which puts him starting at an (Accuracy - Defense) of -35.

 

I mean, the thing is both of you are touching the real conclusions -

 

a) Accuracy (or more specifically Accuracy - relevant Defense) is a very potent stat, easily more powerful than Might or Dex at low starting values

b) (A-D) at higher values drops in effectiveness harder than any other stat, making it much worse than Might or Dex once you reach certain levels of (A-D) (homework: can you calculate the values where this drop off occurs? It's probably lower than you are assuming! Extra credit: do it for attacks that can graze vs attacks that can't graze)

c) (A-D) are the most manipulable stats in combat. You can get a Strong buff to add +5 Might. But you can flank an enemy and hit them with a pike for -20 Deflection, lower their resolve by another 10, etc. The aforementioned weapon modals are a huge PARTY WIDE buff to (A-D). Combat spells tend to raise Accuracy much more than Might, Dex, etc.

 

Basically, there is a sweet spot that you want to hit for (A-D) and then put effort in raising your attack rate, might, etc, rather than pump more accuracy. Also, as mentioned, positioning and tactics in combat play a HUGE role here and should be emphasized.

Edited June 6, 2018 by youspoonybard

[youspoonybard]

 

 

I doubt the modal effects would get transferred on Carnage?

Apparently they are. Have not tested personally though.

No they are not. Carnage does not transfer modal "afflictions" like Body Blows etc. What works is Charge (pre 1.1) and Clear Out (plus upgrades). Those are the only two abilities I could find that apply Body Blows (morning star modal) in an AoE. At least that's with game version 1.0.2

 

Heart of Fury (and I assume the Ranger T8 ability)? Pretty sure HoF was working for me, but my 1.1 Barb doesn't have it quite yet to confirm.

[Boeroer]

That means only a 24% dps increase from +20 accuracy...

Without taking into account that crits improve your overall PEN by 50%.

[Boeroer]

 

 

 

I doubt the modal effects would get transferred on Carnage?

Apparently they are. Have not tested personally though.

No they are not. Carnage does not transfer modal "afflictions" like Body Blows etc. What works is Charge (pre 1.1) and Clear Out (plus upgrades). Those are the only two abilities I could find that apply Body Blows (morning star modal) in an AoE. At least that's with game version 1.0.2

Heart of Fury (and I assume the Ranger T8 ability)? Pretty sure HoF was working for me, but my 1.1 Barb doesn't have it quite yet to confirm.

Ah,yes. HoF also works. I didn't take it into account because you can't have it as multiclass character (playing a brute with a morning star atm). So I forgot about it. I guess the monk's level-10 ability where he flies (or jumps) around doing full attacks will also work. As well as Flagellant's Path (which I also forgot, Jeez!).

Edited June 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[Maxzero]

 

 

I did some calculations and came to conclusion that having 20 bonus accuracy equals to having around 40% bonus damage or 60%+ on POTD. It is crazy. If your base chance to hit is 50% and with 20 bonus accuracy its about 70%, then that equals 40% more dps.

It doesn't work like that...

I will consider the average situation where your accuracy equal to the enemy's deflection. That means your attacks will be: 15%misses, 35% grazes and 50%hits. If you add 20 accuracy it will become: 30% grazes, 50% hits and 20% crits.

 

In the first scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.35 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses) + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.675 + 0.85 * dmg bonuses)

 

In the second scenario your average damage would be:

base dmg * (.3 * (0.5 + dmg bonuses) + .5 * (1 + dmg bonuses) + .2 * (1.25 + dmg bonuses)) = base dmg * (0.9 + dmg bonuses)

 

In the case of a ranger/cipher how much dmg bonuses you can have? 60% from weapon, 20% soul whip and maybe 30% from might ie 110%. If we compare the two scenarios the dps increase will be:

(0.9 + 1.1) / (0.675 + 0.85 * 1.1) = 2/1.61 = 1.24

 

That means only a 24% dps increase from +20 accuracy...

He assumed 50% misses though, which puts him starting at an (Accuracy - Defense) of -35.

 

I mean, the thing is both of you are touching the real conclusions -

 

a) Accuracy (or more specifically Accuracy - relevant Defense) is a very potent stat, easily more powerful than Might or Dex at low starting values

b) (A-D) at higher values drops in effectiveness harder than any other stat, making it much worse than Might or Dex once you reach certain levels of (A-D) (homework: can you calculate the values where this drop off occurs? It's probably lower than you are assuming! Extra credit: do it for attacks that can graze vs attacks that can't graze)

c) (A-D) are the most manipulable stats in combat. You can get a Strong buff to add +5 Might. But you can flank an enemy and hit them with a pike for -20 Deflection, lower their resolve by another 10, etc. The aforementioned weapon modals are a huge PARTY WIDE buff to (A-D). Combat spells tend to raise Accuracy much more than Might, Dex, etc.

 

Basically, there is a sweet spot that you want to hit for (A-D) and then put effort in raising your attack rate, might, etc, rather than pump more accuracy. Also, as mentioned, positioning and tactics in combat play a HUGE role here and should be emphasized.

That also only applies to Deflection.

 

When we are talking about spells that usually target Reflex, Fort and Will.

 

As I mentioned not only do these stats have fewer ways to be targetted but many of the ways to target them then test against the very saves they are trying to lower.

 

For example lets say you want to Charm a dangerous Mage. You notice that they have high Will save so you get your Wizard to cast Dullmindness. Of course Dullmindness also tests against Will.

 

In the end you say stuff it and spam Full attack skills till the Mage is dead.

 

Its not like weapon class where you just switch on a modal, upgrade the enchant level or just swing/shoot again.

 

Its why Wizards all become Empower spammers. Its one of the few ways that let a spell reliably hit without spending 2 actions setting it up.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[Maxzero]

 

That means only a 24% dps increase from +20 accuracy...

Without taking into account that crits improve your overall PEN by 50%.

Which is actually relevant for spells since they often have lower penetration with fewer ways to raise it.

[youspoonybard]

There are differences between physical attacks and spells that you have to take into account, but the overall statement isn't false.

 

a) Weapon modals lower FRW by 25 instead of 10

b) Base stats add +2 to each relevant defense and there are two of them to target instead of +1 and 1 stat on deflection. You can potentially lower FRW defenses very quickly.

c) Are you complaining that you can't target strong defenses with no setup and reliably succeed? Why not use Fetid Caress if you're trying to hit a high will caster off the bat instead to take them out of the fight?

[Esajin]

 

 

That means only a 24% dps increase from +20 accuracy...

Without taking into account that crits improve your overall PEN by 50%.

Which is actually relevant for spells since they often have lower penetration with fewer ways to raise it.

 

 

It's more than relevant for a number of things. The harder the content, the higher the enemy's armor. Very often you will find yourself in a situation where a poorly chosen spell will do 25% damage if it's a hit due to poor penetration, and full damage if it's a crit.

 

So assuming 10 Might, a spell that does 40 base damage will do 10 damage on a hit and 50 damage on a crit.

 

Now, at 50 accuracy vs 50 defense:

 

25% chance to do 0 damage (miss)

25% chance to do 5 damage (graze)

50% chance to do 10 damage (hit)

 

Average damage: 6.25

 

At 70 accuracy vs 50 defense:

 

5% chance to do 0 damage (miss)

25% chance to do 5 damage (graze)

50% chance to do 10 damage (hit)

20% chance to do 50 damage (crit)

 

Average damage: (25*5+50*10+20*50)/100 = 16.25

 

So the multiplicative damage buff from +20 accuracy in the best case scenario is +260%.

 

(and now you know why the armor/penetration/crit system is flawed, basically accuracy is king, hit to crit is queen, and everything else is mushrooms)

Edited June 6, 2018 by Esajin

[Maxzero]

There are differences between physical attacks and spells that you have to take into account, but the overall statement isn't false.

 

a) Weapon modals lower FRW by 25 instead of 10

b) Base stats add +2 to each relevant defense and there are two of them to target instead of +1 and 1 stat on deflection. You can potentially lower FRW defenses very quickly.

c) Are you complaining that you can't target strong defenses with no setup and reliably succeed? Why not use Fetid Caress if you're trying to hit a high will caster off the bat instead to take them out of the fight?

1) Assuming you have that spell.

2) Assuming you have free casts (you have only 2 level 2 spells)

3) Assuming you hit.

 

You can then take out the Mage.

 

Or you can just use Full attack abilities from the start and skip all that.

 

Remember lowering Deflection benefits all weapon classes. Lowering one FRW stat only benefits a single group of spells.

 

But take don't my word for it look at the builds people are making. Only Empower Wizards actually use spells as their primary attacks.

 

In almost all other cases the casters are the supports to the weapon classes.

 

Weapon classes are simply easier to play, more consistant and more powerful and a lot of that comes down to poor spell accuracy.

 

Casters become support because buffs don't miss.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[youspoonybard]

Geez, people don't rely on crits to penetrate, especially when you have limited uses of things.

 

So many people seem to be banging their heads against a wall instead of taking a step to the side and walking through the door.

[Maxzero]

 

 

 

That means only a 24% dps increase from +20 accuracy...

Without taking into account that crits improve your overall PEN by 50%.

Which is actually relevant for spells since they often have lower penetration with fewer ways to raise it.

It's more than relevant for a number of things. The harder the content, the higher the enemy's armor. Very often you will find yourself in a situation where a poorly chosen spell will do 25% damage if it's a hit due to poor penetration, and full damage if it's a crit.

 

So assuming 10 Might, a spell that does 40 base damage will do 10 damage on a hit and 50 damage on a crit.

 

Now, at 50 accuracy vs 50 defense:

 

25% chance to do 0 damage (miss)

25% chance to do 5 damage (graze)

50% chance to do 10 damage (hit)

 

Average damage: 6.25

 

At 70 accuracy vs 50 defense:

 

5% chance to do 0 damage (miss)

25% chance to do 5 damage (graze)

50% chance to do 10 damage (hit)

20% chance to do 50 damage (crit)

 

Average damage: (25*5+50*10+20*50)/100 = 16.25

 

So the multiplicative damage buff from +20 accuracy in the best case scenario is +260%.

 

(and now you know why the armor/penetration/crit system is flawed, basically accuracy is king, hit to crit is queen, and everything else is mushrooms)

It's not that the system is flawed its that weapon classes have so many ways around it.

 

Weapon not penetrating?

 

Change weapon!

Turn on a modal!

Enchant!

Be Berzerker/Devoted!

 

Well made weapon classes almost never have to worry about armour. Pen system is great for weapon classes.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[Bugged Wolf Companion]

Now, at 50 accuracy vs 50 defense:

 

25% chance to do 0 damage (miss)

25% chance to do 5 damage (graze)

50% chance to do 10 damage (hit)

 

Average damage: 6.25

 

At 70 accuracy vs 50 defense:

 

5% chance to do 0 damage (miss)

25% chance to do 5 damage (graze)

50% chance to do 10 damage (hit)

20% chance to do 50 damage (crit)

 

Average damage: (25*5+50*10+20*50)/100 = 16.25

 

So the multiplicative damage buff from +20 accuracy in the best case scenario is +260%.

 

(and now you know why the armor/penetration/crit system is flawed, basically accuracy is king, hit to crit is queen, and everything else is mushrooms)

 

 

It would be 160%, no? Maybe my math is letting me down but

 

6.25 * 2.6 where 2.6 equals to 160% increase because 100% increased damage is a doubling (x 2)

 

6.25 * 2.6 = 16.25 or did i miss something?

 

But i get the jist Accuracy was the best stat since PoE 1. and is becoming increasingly popular as enemies become harder to hit because of adequate stat scaling.

[Sobric]

 

 

I doubt the modal effects would get transferred on Carnage?

Apparently they are. Have not tested personally though.

No they are not. Carnage does not transfer modal "afflictions" like Body Blows etc. What works is Charge (pre 1.1) and Clear Out (plus upgrades). Those are the only two abilities I could find that apply Body Blows (morning star modal) in an AoE. At least that's with game version 1.0.2

*crumples virtual theory crafting paper and throws it into the bin*