Gromnir

ah, our bad. ziets gets fanfare around here and we honestly don't know much o' him other than motb... which we thought were hit and miss. HA! Good Fun! ps am thinking we keep spelling his name incorrect too. bad on us for that at least.

That's not possible. You can't divide by zero. lol *pats stun on head* its ok, mean old Gromnir won't hurt you. we were chastised by mods so now you gets the special kid treatment. have a cookie and some juice and am sure everything will seem better in the morning. we will note that going this route does threaten thread lockage, so try and say something relevant. zeits worked on troika vampire game, yes? weren't that quest xp? am not recalling. guess he couldn't even convince the folks at troika o' his views on the subject. 'course, we didn't play the vampire game, so perhaps we is wrong that it used quest xp. "Also how would something all of the sudden stop being fun because you realized someone else had more experience points than your digital character did in a SP game when you were previously having a blast?" well, that is obvious. if we realize that we is gonna be handicapping our player by continuing to use stealth, we will likely reduce our reliance on stealth. part of fun o' the game for us is leveling and getting new skills and abilities. force us to chose between a playstyle we prefer and voluntary gimpage is wholly unnecessary IF we use quest xp. problem solved. think us a philistine for wanting good xp payoff and fun playstyle? *shrug* is not a problem with quest xp. HA! Good Fun!

is admittedly a far more compelling debate subject than quest xp v. ad hoc. heck, it may even be more relevant. ... sadly, 'cause this may diminish us in the eyes o' some, we is more o' a picasso aficionado. HA! Good Fun!

indeed. unfortunately, obisidan is making a game for everybody who will play PoE. we can luck into a mess and find that the experience were exhilarating. we got a story about halloween in isla vista back in 1992... but that is another story for another time... and a whole different kinda unexpected mess. a PoE player with messed up character development choices is a whole different issue. poor schmuck thought that playing stealthy would be fun too... seeing as how obsidian has said many times that there won't be bad builds 'n all. and heck, maybe it were fun, right up until he realized he were getting 1/2 the xp o' the slaughterhouse player. that is the kinda mess quest xp avoids. we like Jackson Pollock, but as a game designer, am thinking that mess is not a viable mechanical or aesthetic choice. HA! Good Fun!

I think the previous poster's example is bad, but he makes a valid point. If anything, an RPG should be rewarding the player for RP, not asking them to RP to make up for its own design failures. Agreed, but removing combat xp entirely is not the only solution to this supposed problem. with quest xp, you get combat xp. you also get stealth xp. you get diplomacy xp. you get we-never-expected-you-to-complete-that-quest-that-way xp. quest xp does not discriminate or punish. however you choose to accomplish a task or quest, you receive xp. thus, if you killed every bug, mammal and mystical beast on the map and vanquished the ultimate boss with a hammer blow to the head, you is receiving combat xp. everybody wins. nobody loses. socialists everywhere should be rejoicing. and yes, we know that ain't what you meant by combat xp, but functionally, quest xp simply removes the need or point o' distinguishing. HA! Good Fun! Thank you gromnir, I'm aware of your position. I also understand how quest only XP works. Not sure how socialism fits into all this? Not a fan of it myself, I guess you are? Looks like there is something else we don't agree on! actually, no. am not a socialist. bad assumption there. regardless, quest xp does solve problems o' balancing combat xp and other varieties o' xp... which makes us all the more perplexed when people come up with gut-level rejections o' a simple and elegant mechanic that makes style o' play a non factor in balancing xp rewards. HA! Good Fun!

I think the previous poster's example is bad, but he makes a valid point. If anything, an RPG should be rewarding the player for RP, not asking them to RP to make up for its own design failures. Agreed, but removing combat xp entirely is not the only solution to this supposed problem. with quest xp, you get combat xp. you also get stealth xp. you get diplomacy xp. you get we-never-expected-you-to-complete-that-quest-that-way xp. quest xp does not discriminate or punish. however you choose to accomplish a task or quest, you receive xp. thus, if you killed every bug, mammal and mystical beast on the map and vanquished the ultimate boss with a hammer blow to the head, you is receiving combat xp. everybody wins. nobody loses. socialists everywhere should be rejoicing. and yes, we know that ain't what you meant by combat xp, but functionally, quest xp simply removes the need or point o' distinguishing. HA! Good Fun!

am gonna concede that quoting wikipedia is a pet peeve of ours. if henry kissinger or the Pope quoted wikipedia definitions or "evidence" to us we would heap nothing but scorn and derision 'pon them. if mother teresa were still alive, we might give her a free pass, but our understanding were that she had no personal property save a bucket and one change o' clothes, so we thinks that the internet might be a bit outside her comfort zone. furthermore, the whole living saint angle would make us back away from our typical, "quoting wikipedia deserves a steel-toed boot kick to the head" response. hmmm... we might expand the free-pass list beyond the Pope and henry kissinger, if given enough time. mike ditka? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYJrJO25BD4 HA! Good Fun!

Good to know there are still some people that have something to bring to the table, good to know that you have so much repect to us that you didn't even bother to say something that whoud show us, what to you think about "Non-linearity" how it looks in you opinion etc ... we have... literal dozens of times. many people on these boards would consider our posting on the matter to be the equivalent of spam. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

IWD1 Rangers using bows were more broken than anything in BG1 IMO disagree. bg1 excessive bow powha was a topic discussed on the iwd boards as a matter o' fact. a bg1 fighter with grandmastery in bows would make any iwd ranger build look like a child wielding one of those plastic toy bows with the suction-cup arrows. the howls o' anguish that inexplicably rose up from the bg bow fans were defeaning when they understood that bis were nerfing bows. HA! Good Fun!

non-linear story in a crpg is a myth. multiple paths is not actual non-linear, but am s'posing that is semantics. HA! Good Fun!

we have faith because faith is, in point o' fact, unnecessary. you can't be this slow on accident. there is no calculus needed to balance, no algorithm or ad hoc methods spawned from an attempt to make sure stealth or diplomats get enough xp. no faith is required, because no balancing occurs. Gromnir has faith that the obsidian developers will never drown in a pool o' balancing because they will necessarily never attempt to swim in that pool. congrats. as for strawman, we never said that the system that obsidian will implement will create fun. that is your strawman. xp is an abstraction. exp is a measure that allows us to eventual level. you really need a copy o' Copi. we ignored the noise. "Do you understand that Gromnir? I'm not arguing with you. All the things I've wanted to say have been said. At this point I'm just enjoying watching you flail around in your sad attempts to defend a system that you seem to be irrationally attached to." and Gromnir is enjoying you continuing to make yourself look increasing foolish. if we is both having fun, so much the better, but your fundamental inability to play the game is resulting in diminished returns. if we could train you to tip your little fez at the end o' your jig, we could perhaps make this organ-grinder performance earn us some money, but we can't even teach strawman to you, so that seems unlikely. HA! Good Fun!

"Your responses seem to suggest you have a lot of faith in the developers to implement their chosen systems in a way that will lead to you having a fun time with this game. Some of us don't share that optimism, or are at least much more wary of this than you are." you should never be able to claim strawman. ever. you use like an automatic weapon, but then claim others is using, and is typical wrong doing so. we have faith that quest xp is balanced and simple. the reason we have faith that the developers will implement balanced and simple is because it requires 0 Faith. it is the balancing system o' xp that requires no faith because it is requiring Zero balancing. PoE will give you enough xp to reach level 10 or 11... am not recalling which. developers is spreading out so that you get that xp in relative even increments basd on QA gameplay. so, yeah, if you is honestly disturbed that you is not getting xp in dribble amounts o' 10s, 50s and 100s xp denominations that is fundamentally more difficult to balance than quest xp regardless o' fact that you will get approximate same amount o' xp with quest xp during similar amounts o' gameplay time, then we has little sympathy for you, and we believe you is deluding self regarding what you think is fun. you will have similar opportunities to level and improve your character regardless o' quest xp implementation and you will be getting same xp regardless o' how others play the game, but simple failure to see ticks o' 10xp, 50xp, and 100xp will reduce fun? fine. is good to know. Gromnir Does have faith that even the more incompetent developers could use the considerable resources that would go into the ultimately pointless balancing attempts other than quest/task, and use those resources to improve the game in a multitude o' un knowable and non-specific ways. you don't believe balancing is actual necessary? is a pointless observation. is a major goal mentioned many times as part o' oriiginal kickstarter and since that time, so effort will be expended to balance. choice therefore becomes infinitely simple: do you want the developers to spend a tiny fraction o' resources on balancing xp rewwards that will result in perfect balance, or some other far more respource intensive system that will by necessity end up less balanced. you simply cannot make a more balanced system than quest/task, because it complete ignores the balancing calculus. that being said, yes, if the ticks o' 10s, 50s and 100s o' xp is essential to your fundamental enjoyment o' the game, as peculiar as that is striking us, then we understand your need to argue... though we again, find your timing... amusing. HA! Good Fun!

Now that you mention it , I do feel that seeing the XP values pop up after kills in the Infinity Engine games, served as performance feedback in a way. Not just in a "And another one bites the dust, good job, here have a gold star!" kind of way, but slightly more meaningfully - as in: "Oh wow, that monster gave 10,000 XP? Now I don't feel bad about having spent so many limited resources (spells, scrolls, item charges, potions, health) in this fight -- it was supposed to be that hard. Gotta remember the tactic I used!"or conversely: "Oh, only 200 XP for each of these monsters? Then I guess there must be an easier way to kill them than how I just did it. Next time I meet monsters of this type, I gotta remember to try out different weapon combinations or spell tactics..."So getting the kill XP might not be fun in and of itself, but it is also not completely useless. Although in PoE, the bestiary probably already covers that... (PS: Did I mention I love the bestiary? ) keep in mind that tougher critters will likely drop better loot and may even be part o' a quest resolution. get quest xp for dispatching the ogre serves purpose you were asking for yes? after all, it marked resolution o' a quest, so you know very well that the ogre is significant. am betting most special critters will be tied direct or indirect to quests. killing significant npcs will also be likely to have'em drop loot. drop dirty rags = pathetic foe. drop Excalibur = significant. *shrug* am doubtful an xp award is or should be the defining measure o' success and significance. HA! Good Fun!

--the only xp question we have is: why are tasks and quests disappearing from our log? the game is designed to get you to level 10ish (maybe it were 11... don't recall) or so. if the QA guys are actual reaching level 10 and they is gaining levels at predictable and relative stable increments, then we got no idea what possible xp queries we could possibly think o' that would be at all meaningful. -- how does interrupting work, and how is Gromnir 'posed to recognize if we is successful interrupting? there are TWO abilities that are intimately tied to interrupts: resolve and perception. nevertheless, we has no idea when we is interrupting and we only have a slight better chance o' recognizing when we has been interrupted. -- are priests intended to be the only healing class? this game has a plethora o' classes and many unique new casters. unfortunately, the priest appears to be the only healer. unfortunately, this would seem to require that if we have a priest in a party, he/she needs almost by necessity, be a healbot. -- is there an obvious way to recognize which foes are affected by debuffs? combats can turn into a Charlie Fox very quickly, and one wood beetle looks very much like every other wood beetle. if Gromnir uses marked prey on a wood beetle,is there some kinda obvious visual indicator for letting us know which wood beetle is suffering from marked prey, or any of the other multitude o' possible debuffs? --am getting that talents is few in number at this point, but is there a reason the talents we do have is so enigmatic. congratulations, our ranger is now proficient with peasant weapons. okie dokie. what does that actual means? --why is the character record sheet not more dynamic? we change weapon load outs and nothing on character sheet changes. is it better for Gromnir to dual wield stilettos or use that fine arquebus? no matter which weapon load out we activate, our character record sheet revels no changes to inform us o' differences in accuracy or any other possible changes. --are bears s'posed to be so bad arse? State o' Maine is doing ridiculous damage compared to our boar, wolf or stag... also, there doesn't seem to be a way to activate animal special abilities for those that have them, is this intentional? --the combat log, even when maximized is very brief. scroll up to max is maybe revealing two actions per party member. this is woefully insufficient. is it possible to save more detailed text logs into a PoE file we might review after combats? -- at what point are we going to see more talents? even sucky talents is worth seeing 'cause then we could say, "those talents suck. do it different." the current ability points is admittedly diluting the relative diversity o' class builds. so, when can we start seeing more talents, talents which we hope will expand diversity. we got many other queries, but no sense getting greedy, yes? will wait to add more later. HA! Good Fun! ps one more query before we forget... pixel hunting for rare plants? really?

(quote system died on us again) "Gromnir, why does it have to be "as simple and straightforward to implement"? "Surely, when designing a game, the developers should start by asking "What will be most fun and rewarding for players?", and not "What will be the least amount of work for us?"" "Note that I'm among those who are fine with the PoE's XP system (although I also enjoyed how XP was handled the Infinity Engine, with the exception of XP scaling in IWD2), so I'm not trying to be combative, it's an honest question." answer: scroll up and read josh quote as provided by indira. balancing a system of xp awards is notoriously difficult on developers and QA. quest xp balances by not balancing. quest and task xp takes the whole complex mess of coming up with a calculus that appropriately awards for various tasks that will have admittedly startling different frequencies of usage and functionally solves the extremely difficult problem of balancing proper xp awards by taking the balancing completely out of the process. developers make certain that there are opportunities to be stealthy in the game, they make lockpicking useful and rewarding. they provide options to utilize diplomacy and/or guile. the developers obviously don't need to provide an appropriate number of combat encounters as there will be more than enough of those, but they must still need makes combats engaging and varied. however, quest/task based xp does not require the developers to find any proper balance or formula for awarding xp in an ad hoc manner. actions do not have an xp value even if developer must still be conscious of whether or not particular skills are reasonably useful and fun. getting xp is not, in and of itself fun. leveling might be, but not getting xp.... save for in the same way timmy gets his gold star for memorizing multiplication tables up to the 3s place. why am we suggesting that alternative xp system must be as simple and straightforward as quest xp? because simplicity, elegance and unbreakability is among the main positive attributes of quest xp from the prospective of the developer. the resources and effort saved by functionally solving the problem of balance by ignoring it is more than inconsequential and those resources can be utilized to improve the game in many other unforeseen ways. we cannot say specific what the resources is used for in the alternative, and "a lot" strikes us as woeful vague and unenlightened, but the resource savings is some where between yowzah and Boing! so, yes, given that a prime attribute o' quest xp is resource savings, one would expect that the replacement system, particularly in the late stages o' a game beta, would need be equal simple and resource cost-effective to be representing an attractive alternative to the developers. am not being unfair by adding simplicity and straightforward to our challenge... a challenge which still has no takers btw. HA! Good Fun!

This is a fair objection you raise, but even if the story is great. This is a game, and it's clearly built heavily around combat and the level progression for your roleplaying character revolves almost solely around combat rewards. am confused. what game is you talking about? PoE is specifically not built around level progression as a reward for combats. PoE rewards players for quests and tasks completions and there appears to be the possibility for non-combat resolutions for many/most such quests and tasks. is possible you is actual talking about fallout:tactics however. even so, we wouldn't feel particular bad if xp were granted at the completion o' major objectives on each fo:t maps as 'posed to granting rewards for kills. am recalling the first time we completed the st. louis map, we utilized a scorched earth approach, particular after securing the sniper rifle. the actual mission goal were to save some injured soldiers, but instead we killed everything on the map because the xp were fantastic and 'cause there were so much .50 ammo available if you chose to go ahead and wipe out every mutant. am suspecting that the inflated xp award for the genocide at st. louis is the kinda thing quest/task xp awards seek to minimize. st. louis were also a bonanza for xp if one had the capacity to disarm mines.... which we also exploited shamelessly. every accidentally exploding mine were not only representing lost salvage but wasted xp. good example though. thanks for reminding us. HA! Good Fun!

and so it begins. the sad attempts to distinguish, minimize and otherwise ignore. but again, is not a surprise. we knew from start that quest and task xp would be the mechanic employed to dispense xp awards in PoE. the sudden and irrational shock that quest and task xp is the method actual being employed (admittedly with severe bugs hindering its efficacy) is amusing but hardly unexpected. HA! Good Fun!

"All non-combat skills are useful." which won't mean that each use o' a non-combat skill should award xp. "Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count." and sadly, this information won't satisfy the grognards who demand kill xp. am glad elerond posted, but some/many will continue to claim that the current approach is wrong, regardless o' what were promised. HA! Good Fun!

Past experience? There's never been an Obsidian game or an IE game that didn't reward XP for kills. And therefore, you'll never find empty POINTLESS maps in those games because even a quest-void map will contain enemies you can kill for XP Horrible answer, Gromnir. you make 0 sense. if you want us to assume obsidian incompetence to bolster your point, we won't do so. we can't think o' the last obsidian game we played where we didn't get quest experience either. if we simply voided all kill xp and had that xp awarded at the same points we were getting quest/task xp, we would not have felt diminished by the experience. we don't need a gold star every 5 seconds. HA! Good Fun! Wait a minute. Someone who doesn't want XP for kills would not see a map void of XP rewards and quest Objectives as "incompetence". Instead, they'd chalk up the POINTLESS map as "practice for the real thing". Or "downtime because we don't need a gold star every 5 seconds" Or "well hehehe, at least you get loot!" And therefore, there's no reason to assume that Obsidian WILL bother to insert a quest into the Gorge map or other maps like it in the final product. XP-less maps do not contradict the Quest-only design. what are you talking about? is a beta? am expecting many quests ain't complete or available. we have never played an obsidian game with a shortage o' quests, so we don't expect a shortage in PoE. simple need wait quest award for experience boost rather than little gold stars for killing bugs? gosh, how can we possible wait a few minutes to end up getting a lump o' xp rather than little bitty kill increments. and if there is no quests on a map in a final build, yeah, that would be incompetent o' obsidian. have dozens or hundreds o' xp dropping killable mobs on such a map would not make the game better. you are not making the point you seem to think you is. HA! Good Fun!

am gonna serious disagree with sensuki ranger experiences from ad&d and 3e games. the bg2 kits interested us not at all, but at least they dropped the feralan early in bg2 development. ranger in bg were a way to get free dual-wield or functionally cheat a dual-class cleric so a person could get all druid spells... and dual-wield. the ranger stronghold were... ok. nothing special conversely, ie game bards sucked complete and utter... even blades. is nothing a bard could do that some other class or multi-class could not do better, more fun... with one Very important and frequent overlooked exception. bg2 bard stronghold quest were the bestest by far. is the one stronghold the bolstered the main bg2 story as well. what a shame that bards were so complete awful. we liked nwn2 and iwd2 rangers and bards very much. 3e games made skills useful, and rangers and bards gots loads o' skills. bard songs also became important and useful in nwn2. as for PoE all the casters are unique and intriguing and we look forward to playing them... though wizard is least compelling. unfortunately, the priest disturbs Gromnir. is a legion o' casters but only one healer. is making us feel as if the one indispensable caster in any party will be a priest. should be more than one dedicated heals. rogue, fighter and wizard is vanilla... but that ain't bad. no doubt some players will wanna play archetypes, and thus we got 'em. the per-encounter abilities make even the vanilla archetypes more intriguing than the ie incarnations, but am admitting that the per encounter abilities for rogue and ranger is current bugged for us. haven't played paladin, barbarian or monk, but we don't wanna play a monk. watch 5 deadly venoms on late-nite tv? sure, but play monk? no. PoE ranger is very intriguing. am playing high dex and high perception for interrupts. am not certain if our orlan ranger is actual interrupting, but she is hitting about 2x as much as other party members, and our bear is insane powerful with 77 accuracy and damages frequently above 70. HA! Good Fun!

Past experience? There's never been an Obsidian game or an IE game that didn't reward XP for kills. And therefore, you'll never find empty POINTLESS maps in those games because even a quest-void map will contain enemies you can kill for XP Horrible answer, Gromnir. you make 0 sense. if you want us to assume obsidian incompetence to bolster your point, we won't do so. we can't think o' the last obsidian game we played where we didn't get quest experience either. if we simply voided all kill xp and had that xp awarded at the same points we were getting quest/task xp, we would not have felt diminished by the experience. we don't need a gold star every 5 seconds. HA! Good Fun!

not faith. past experience. look back at any any ie game... any obsidian game. check your quest logs from a point where you is 5th level. with an entire world, rather than just a couple maps, am suspecting we is gonna be fighting to keep track o' all the quests. *chuckle* a typical complaint we has in all such games is the ability or inability to ad customized map markers to keep track o' jsut where we need go next and what we hasn't complete finished. is not faith chum, is experience. am betting we finish first play through o' o' PoE and we will have a handful o' unfinished quest with absolute no idea how we missed completing. we got Zero worries that there will be insufficient quests to keep us occupied and leveling. HA! Good Fun!

*groan* am trying to be patient. am not sure what you is tying to achieve with what you think is insightful but is clearly misguided quotes. you will be able to sneak and diplomacy your way past many obstacles and achieve success in may quests. the obsidians don't need tally and balance the weight o' the value o' those skills because all successfully completed quests, regardless o' your solution, will achieve equal payoff. am not certain how to make this any more simple or clear. Oh I don't disagree that your quotes are misguided. In fact I'm pretty sure I was commenting on their misguided nature. More to the point: with a system that rewards XP only for completing quests, you are not guaranteed that your play style will be rewarded. And example is Stealth gameplay. You weren't rewarded for it at all in this beta. Another example, and one you've ignored every time it was presented to you on this thread, is the Gorge map (the wilderness map to the left of the village) Here we have a giant chunk of the beta, a sizable amount of content. But because there are no quests tied to it, there are No XP rewards given out for completing it. now I'm sure this constitutes terrific design and "proof" that a quest XP only system is teh BEST. But someone like me will tell it like it is: Crap. Spending an hour 'exploring' an entire map and the dungeon beneth it and getting NOTHING to show for it, is not ideal. I'm not a content tourist. Gromnir actual has spent more than 20 hours playing PoE without getting any xp other than the meredith (sp?) fight. our quest log is broken. you is making weird assumptions that empty maps and missing quests will be the norm in the final build. if that makes you feel better, so be it. asking for maps with quests is not exactly an argument against quest xp. that should not need be clarified, but it seems it is. HA! Good Fun!

Good advice and much more thorough than what I was prepared to write. However I am giving Obsidian the benefit of the doubt and am suspecting that they are aspiring for the depth and complexity of PS:T when it comes to interactivity. Afterall, I did back this game (and not for an unsubstantial amount of scratch) with the strong belief that Obsidian is going to deliver on their product based on their pedigree and strength of their back catalog. oh, we have same/similar hopes. even when Gromnir has been disappointed by obsidian, we believes they has attempted to achieve interactivity that is beyond what is typical o' virtual any other popular developer o' crpgs today. we may criticize individual obsidian developers and writers, but as a group, we feel they is kinda the benchmark for story-driven crpgs that try to balance in interactivity. though we haven't actual purchased their last couple releases... HA! Good Fun!

*groan* am trying to be patient. am not sure what you is tying to achieve with what you think is insightful but is clearly misguided quotes. you will be able to sneak and diplomacy your way past many obstacles and achieve success in may quests. the obsidians don't need tally and balance the weight o' the value o' those skills because all successfully completed quests, regardless o' your solution, will achieve equal payoff. am not certain how to make this any more simple or clear. as to helm: "If you guys hate combat XP so much, then why did you back the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate that Obsidian promised us? " we will get plenty o' experience for combat, but it will be exactly the same amount o' experience as we get if we snuck past all the spiders and then tricked the ogre through dialogue. ​we all get to be wieners. yay! sart: "Are you saying that for every playthrough of BG2 you always killed every creature you encountered in every instance, always?" and you complain about strawman? *chuckle* that being said, especial if we were close to leveling, we would be more inclined to search out a mob to kill just for the experience Points and not 'cause the experience o' combat were fun. thanks for helping illustrate that point even if it ain't what you were hoping to reveal. "Hopefully that apocalypse of horrible game design will not come to pass. As it stands I am not convinced. I'm worried." dear lord. you didn't go there, did you? HA! HA! Good Fun!