Gromnir

Fine. Lets see. Your proposal stinks for 5 fundamental reasons. 1)If there is content in this game that is not tied to a quest, your system doesn't address it. 2)If there are times when combat is forced/required, your system doesn't address it. 3)If the diplomatic route in a quest simply requires a single skill/stat check, while the combat route requires use of more than one player skill, your system does not take that into account. 4)If sneaking past an encounter doesn't grant loot rewards but intimidation and/or combat does, your system does not address it. 5)If solving a dungeon puzzle requires no character skill and rewards XP, but killing the dungeon level's inhabitants requires the use of several of your character's skills but Doesn't reward XP, your system is a joke. In light of the above, I'd have to conclude that BG2's system, while still flawed, is certainly a better system than the one you are proposing. Hey Gromnir, that was SIMPLE. actually, quest xp addresses all your concerns by simply not dividing those individual aspects into unnecessarily minor parts. you get xp for achieving major goals, period. you want to divide actions and provide individual rewards for little achievements, then somehow add them up and balance them? why?. obsidian actually hearkens back to old pnp roots and observes that it doesn't matter what route you take to achieve the ultimate goal of the quest. this is not complex. you are adding complexity where it is not needed. you should not need a metaphorical pat on the head for every success in the game. quest/task is infinitely easy and it is impossible to break... save for when it is bugged as it currently is. HA! Good Fun! ps to stay on topic, Gromnir is still looking for depth from the PoE world. the small portion o' the game is, we believe, intentionally limiting our exposure to world lore and depth, so we cannot see how zeits can be impressed by what we has seen thus far.

being kinda selective, eh? well, we kinda predicted that months ago. nevertheless, this entire discussion 'bout xp awards is spam as is having been repeated ad nauseum in multiple threads and is not particular relevant to zeits. that being said, we do likes that we get to say, "we told you so," and be correct. "We used to have the choice to either engage in combat or not. We used to have the choice to be diplomatic or not. PoE is a stealth simulator that doesn't resemble the IE games at all, it is just a boring stealth simulator where the core activity is avoiding combat while doing the bidding of villagers for XP. "You don't want a roleplaying game that offers choices and hate combat? Then go play Pacifist: The Pacification or a stealth simulator. "HA! Good Fun! (<- god, that is so retarded)" all of which, even if true, would not be a valid argument for separating xp awards into individual constituent parts such as lockpick success, sneak, diplomacy and fighty as it would lead to a need to balance such awards. seriously, how is this not getting through? HA! Good Fun!

Insufficient information given. We'd need to know how much easier/harder the diplomatic route will be vis-a-vis combat route. We'd need to know precisely how viable stealthing will be. We'd need to know exactly how many instances of required combat there is, and we'd need to be assured that every single option will be viable in every single quest. Otherwise your proposal is neither better design, nor simpler design. It's just Lazier design. you don't need more information. the fact that you believe you need more info is proof itself that alternative options is necessarily more complex. obsidian need not ask any o' your queries 'cause regardless o' the answers, everybody gets same awards with quest xp. duh. HA! Good Fun!

to ink blot as clarification please keep in mind that we is much in favor o' providing additional opportunities for sneaky and diplomatic or unforeseen and creative resolutions. we like combat, but more choices in a crpg makes Gromnir more happy. that being said, encouraging obsidian to offer more such options is a separate issue from how xp is awarded. HA! Good Fun!

Which would be great if almost every talent/ability/spell wasn't geared towards combat effectiveness. I made a 'pacifist' Rogue earlier this morning to see if you could complete the quests in the beta without combat. Kitted an Orlan Rogue out with Stealth and Mechanics for skills, and pumped Intellect, Resolve, and Perception all to 15. However, every single one of the class abilities I was able to choose from when leveling were combat-oriented. Even the bloody class and race extras at character creation were geared toward combat. Honestly, I don't mind the idea of quest XP only, but for the love of the deities why is every single ability/perk/talent/class special ability/spell all geared toward combat effectiveness? this is a complete different argument from the quest based xp question. perhaps you feel diplomatic and sneaky options is underrepresented. Gromnir hasn't gotten very far, but we has been able to talk way past most major encounters. nevertheless, if xp were awarded for sneaky and diplomatic and lockpicks and kills, there would almost certainly needs be a resulting best build for maximizing xp rewards. quest/task awards as only xp outlet removes the need to find a correct or meaningful balance such that no one style o' gameplay results in greater xp awards. HA! Good Fun!

such posts reveal just how utterly and intractably obtuse you is being. nevertheless, instead o' getting stoopid and repetitive and sweary, answer our challenge as posed above. HA! Good Fun!

Well, what were you expecting from a game where the core activity is combat? Not to mention that Baldur's Gate had diplomatic/peaceful solutions to quests, and you don't have to kill everything just because you get XP for doing so, so that isn't a problem anyway. Do you play flight simulators and whine that you have to fly a plane too or what? Go play a stealth game or pacifist: the pacification if it bothers you. PoE is a role-play game that allows sneaky and diplomatic. give xp awards for individual kills, and individual lockpicks and individual whatever inevitably leads to an ideal approach for maximizing xp by making the right gameplay and character development choices. quest only xp avoids the need to devise a fair an balanced calculus. quest is simple and guaranteed to result in every player getting exact same XP rewards for completing quests regardless o' how they chose to complete the quest. you don't wanna play a role-play game that offers choices? then go play an rts game. HA! Good Fun!

Bullsh*t, You're stating an opinion as fact. I want XP for completing quests equally as much as I want XP for killing things. Take either of them away from me, And I will respond to the omission the SAME. Incidently, there would be nothing stopping the devs from increasing quest completion rewards for those who completed those quests non-violently, thus equaling out the discrepancy you claim will occur for the violent route. And it's not up Gromnir to decide whether or not a thread discussion is "too old" to be discussed. I don't see a moderator tag next to your name, so stop pretending you're one. asking for both kill and quest xp utterly defeats the Point o' quest only. duh. HA! Good Fun!

we pose this challenge every time this Stoopid debate reappears and we never get an answer: provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player. go ahead. HA! Good Fun! edited a double "that"

don't be obtuse. if you want xp for individual kills or individual lockpicks you is not actual advocating the quest/task xp reward approach. *sigh* and the reasons why xp for kills and individual activities PLUS quest awards has been beaten to death... beaten beyond death, is that if the fighty character gets more xp 'cause xp from fights ends up yielding more xp, then you is functional encouraging fighty even if you do make diplomatic and sneaky options viable. quest and task xp awards avoids any sorta attempts to balance awards for differing play styles... yadda-yadda, etc. ad nauseum. *groan*' you don't have any idea just how obtuse this all is and how repetitive. HA! Good Fun! ps say something new. give us a new perspective. come up with a new argument. anything. please.

He didn't claim he was being discriminated against. He claimed he was being punished. How else would you describe getting into a nasty fight, having to use up valuable consumables and limited per day abilities and then receive nothing for your hard work...except maybe the need to use up one of your camping supplies, or hike back to the inn for rest? you ain't punished. you get same xp as those who sneak past combats even if you do get 1007 drops n' such that sneaky folks don't get. the guy that does the fight gets valuable loot drops that the sneaky or diplomatic player does not receive. the sneaky doesn't waste potions or camping resources. is a Role-Play game. aren’t you happy you get meaningful choices? regardless, notice we said "punished" not discriminated.... although that is one o' the more feeble semantic arguments we has seen in awhile. am suspecting that loot drops more than make up for camping supplies, but even if they don't, is up to player to decide where is the value. even so, there is no punishment or discrimination for choosing fighty. there is likewise no Punishment for diplomatic or sneaky players when discussing xp rewards, 'cause they is gonna get exact same xp regardless. there is no more simple and elegant method than quest and task xp that will provide all styles o' gameplay with same xp awards. until some codexian grognard or new initiate to the xp morass comes up with such a simple and straightforward system, the argument is functional dead and over. and as there is no conceivable way to better balance than to not try and balance, there is no actual argument. honest. am assuming the reason you never see the obsidian folks join in is 'cause o' the complete and utter boredom they feels everytime some wannabee necromancer attempts to resurrect this mutilated corpse o' an argument even little kiddies who has seen aladdin know that it ain't a pretty picture when you try and raise the dead like you folks is trying. (homage to robin williams added in not-so-sly-fashion) the first person who adds something new to this discussion is gonna send us to the hospital with a heart attack. no matter how clever and/or insightful y'all think you is, this is a +10 year argument and you add absolutely nothing to what has already been beat into what is now nothing more than immature yes v. no nonsense and hair pulling repetition. say something new, anybody. go ahead, we dare you. ... honest think for a moment and ask self if there is possible anything you can say that weren't added in 2002 or any bis/obsidian development since that time. HA! Good Fun!

that would work for Gromnir, but josh doesn't approve o' meta-humor. HA! Good Fun!

the current PoE system is borked. there is literal hundreds o' games better than PoE in its current state. nevertheless, your observation is pointless and misguided. in any event, we should all thank God that vol approval does not = better. HA! Good Fun!

ziets didn't know how to end motb well, but that is another issue entirely. am not thinking any single developer gots an infallible crpg vision... 'least we ain't never seen such. we like some ziets and we dislike other o' his work. is no surprise that we thinks he is 'bout half right with his observations. HA! Good Fun!

you ain't punished. you get same xp as those who sneak past combats even if you do get 1007 drops n' such that sneaky folks don't get. regardless, this is a dead issue. serious, is same argument we has been having with same developers since 2002. black isle/obsidian declared victory and planted their flag in the moldering corpse o' ad hoc over a decade ago and the freaking broken and battered remains o' the vanquished keeps twitching and threatening to rise zombie-like every time Gromnir looks away for even five minutes. is disconcerting. perhaps feargus should call in a witch doctor or an exorcist or somesuch and finally give this dead body o' a subject its final rest. HA!Good Fun!

the conan quote works a bit better than the original attributed genghis khan. post conan movie, we gets revisionist quotes for genghis, but the lamb book quotes it thus: "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." alternatively, the bit 'bout horses is given as "to take the finest of their horses between your legs" which just don't sound as right to the modern ear. personally, we likes the movie conan version better, and thanks to internet revisionism, the genghis quote is now typical provided as closer to the conan version. HA! Good Fun!

Yeah, that's my problem, too. No feedback :/ PS I'm using Mr Wolf have used stag, boar, wolf and bear. perhaps bear is bugged, but State o' Maine is having a typical accuracy o' 77 and is frequent doing ridiculous damage... frequent hits for over 75 damage. HA! Good Fun!

quest/task makes perfect sense, and it is simple and unbreakable. regardless o' how you accomplish a goal, no matter how creative or insanely stoopid is your approach, regardless o' whether you go sneaky, diplomatic, fighty or bug exploitative, you will get same xp award for accomplishing a goal. you want the gold-star-on-your-homework feeling from seeing 50 xp awarded for killing a kobold or spider? well, get over it. Gromnir concedes that it is indeed possible that there is a hypothetical perfect balancing formula whereby all players coulds get the right and just xp regardless o' play style, but it would be a complex system and would take considerable effort to implement. quest/task complete ignores the conundrum o' perfect balancing by functional ignoring the problem altogether... and if vol don't get his gold star, so much the better. quest is simple, elegant, and unbreakable... as long as it isn't bugged into absence such as in the PoE beta. HA! Good Fun!

we get impression we is interrupting, but there is no feedback in combat log and there is no graphic indicator that accompanies a successful interrupt, so we have no freaking idea if we is wasting effort or kicking proverbial butt. is a bit frustrating. HA! Good Fun! ps the bear companion does an inordinate amount o' damage

time is not running out. Gromnir has april 1 in the release date poll. yay Gromnir. HA! Good Fun!

our ranger appears to achieve most o' his damage via his animal companion. as such, we has decided that our ranger will be interrupt focused. animal does damage, while our ranger sits back with a fast ranged weapon and concentrates on interrupt. that being said, we would like to have some kinda reliable feedback that shows whether or not interrupts is efficacious. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67748-ranger-hippies-with-pets-luvhate/?p=1490371 and seriously, we would like a way to see which foes is suffering debuffs. this is particular important for rangers using marked prey. HA! Good Fun!

*sigh* need we have any further proof that combat xp sux than for vol to be in favor o' it? as has been stated hundreds o' times, this same fight has raged with largely the same developers since approx 2002 when black isle were working on bg3 and then fo3. black isle developers went over all the positives and negatives o' quest/task xp awards and soundly beat the ad hoc proponents into utter stoopid submission. we had thought that the ground had been made forever infertile with the blood spilled by the idiotic protests o' the ad hoc proponents, but it seems that at least some o' you is too stubborn to realize that you is well and fully vanquished. quest is simple, elegant and does not require Any balancing to be providing same reward to all players regardless o' play style. there is no balancing algorithm that can possibly compete with the simplicity o' completely avoiding the need to balance. HA! Good Fun!

actually, bg were ridiculous broken in favor o' ranged. iwd, at the minimum, made adjustments to grandmastery and ranged weapons. one o' the more ridiculous bg2 board battles were the fight to save ranged combat efficacy. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

leferd said: He helped flesh out some of the world lore and pantheon of gods during preproduction. well, that explains the following: "Loved the richness of the world and the hints I got about the story. " uh, yeah, well, am sure if you contributed to world richness you will see such in every painting hanging in the local inn, but so far we have gotten very little from which we can point to world depth. honestly, we wanted to kill sid halfway through his spiel. am kindia disagreeing with his impression o' the mouse-over of logs too. the logs themselves is o' so brief and seeming leaving information out that we feel like the mouse-over is telling us half of the relevant info. as stated elsewhere, we got 0 idea how interrupts figure in, and yet two abilities is focused 'pon creating and resisting interrupts. combat logs, in general, is very disappointing and we would wish for an option by which we could save more detailed text logs in a PoE file for later perusal. complete disagree regarding xp for combat. combat xp is an anachronism leftover from crpgs o' the past.... which is kinda ironic. hell, d&d pnp didn't actual award any xp during adventures-- were s'posed to be awarded after completion o' an adventure. clearly the old pnp approach wouldn't work in a crpg lasting tens o' hours and s'posed awarding 10 to a dozen levels, but combat kills xp is bad design and leading to difficulty in balancing. our problem with PoE xp awards is that they don't work. if you can't get combat xp and quest xp is a crap shoot even if you load from main screen, then something is serious freaking wrong. combat xp wouldbe better than no xp. unlike george, we got very good use from aoe Offensive spells, but we couldn't be slap-happy and stoopid 'bout using 'em. dunno, maybe george never played the d&d crpgs with friendly-fire active. am agreeing with george that inventory seems limited, but we haven't quite figured out stash yet and sometimes our inventory is bugged regardless... we actual have one or two less inventory slots and so gear disappears? we don't mind the micromanagement o' combat, and as we has noted elsewhere, starting at level five means we gets thrown into the deeper end o' the pool to try and start learning, but we will agree that bugginess o' combat is frustrating-- is frustrating to point that playing demo frequent feels like work rather than fun. that is bad for a game. in general, we think we agree and disagree with george in equal measure. is a good thing actually. is good to see different perspectives. HA! Good Fun!

I think we're dealing with a psychological effect here at least partly. It just feels "wrong" that dumped stats still give bonuses, even if they're small. am suspecting that you are identifying the bulk o' the problem... at least insofar as recognizing the psychology o' feeling wrong. PoE is doing different than the ie games, or arcanum or fallout. for the codexians, that is not proper and is therefore wrong. PoE does not effective force melee combatants to choose physical stats and at least boost one such stat to max. by mid levels, a mage in most crpgs might as well not even bother to carry a weapon for all the good it does them. mages boots mental stats and get benefit o' powerful spells. melee combatants boost str or dex and must suffer penalties due to lower intelligence or weak will saves. PoE is not using ability scores to force players to follow largely predetermined paths. a mage will be able to use a weapon in PoE and still get use from it at 8th level. *gasp* as we can see from matt's numbers, the values o' placing points in dex, might or both is hardly inconsequential, but they is not end-game determinate either. is different, but different is not bad. different is not even a problem that needs be overcome with fixes. as we noted in another thread, am hopeful there is other avenues for players to customize and diversify, but the numbers don't suggests a genuine problem, unless the problem is simple recognizing that PoE is not doing as wotc or bis or troika has done in past games. HA! Good Fun!