Gromnir

Why do we talk like we are a third year elementary student writing shakespeare. HA! Not So Fun Understanding What You're Saying! Role playing an orc? not orc. that were the inside joke forced on us by biowarians. they thought it were amusing that everybody at the old Co'6 interplay message boards assumed orc, so they made the ToB Gromnir an orc. now, thanks to dave, we is stuck with orc label regardless o' whatever we might say or do. yes, dave were very funny. haha. to be fair, we were expecting to be depicted as an inconsequential flatulent xvart, so call the ToB inclusion as an orc a win for Gromnir? HA! Good Fun!

complete fanciful, but somewhat amusing, private joker. nevertheless, we fixed your hypothetical game title to be more appropriate. am doubting the folks at codex would be quite so appalled if correct(ed) title were utilized. "Why do we talk like we are a third year elementary student writing shakespeare. "HA! Not So Fun UndersWtanding hat You're Saying!" how very original. doesn't make you seem ridiculous predictable or anything like that. HA! Good Fun!

Because SRR uses Karma instead of XP. Otherwise, they are similar in that they reward for getting stuff done rather than doing stuff. we applaud your verve. trying to be rational with vol? is noble, but ultimately pointless. this is your Charge at Krojanty? HA! Good Fun!

some folks is trying to be funny. the point o' the quest/task based xp system used in PoE precludes giving specific awards for kills and lockpicks and other such activities. therefore, the comedians who says that they is not opposed to quest xp because they would gladly give kill and quest rewards is being jokers. WARNING: Very SWEARY! am understanding if mods censor. HA! Good Fun!

Seems to me you're the one lost, Grom. The thread title mentions impressions, not Quest XP. You're the one that insists on bringing everything back to Quest-based XP. I've repeatedly stated I don't have a big issue with that. My point still stands that the game is skewed too heavily towards combat for a game that's supposedly concerned with solving quests in other ways. If you want to continue to stir up some kind of debate about the superiority of Quest-based XP over combat XP, then by all means. Feel free to ignore my posts and have at beating the poor plebs that don't understand the superiority of Quest XP into submission. But you're the one constantly quoting my posts and telling me they're irrelevant. If this were the Quest vs. Combat XP Debate thread, I'd agree with you. But it's not. It's an impression thread. Hope that's clear enough. you is being more than a little disingenuous considering it is a thread s'posed 'bout ziets' impressions, and your concerns don't appear particular relevant to his.... "I still can't grasp the thinking behind giving no reward for combat kills, while every ability, spell, and talent in the game that I've seen so far is oriented toward making the character better at... killing and combat. If the whole idea is to give you alternate methods of solving quests and no matter how you do it, you get the same XP award, then why are there no talents, spells, abilities or even racial and class perks that will help you build a character that can be more effective at solving quests without combat?" no a quest xp concern for you? okie dokie. you is clear being disingenuous. but hey, we will play along. fine? we already agreed we would prefer less combat specific focus on mechanics, but again, as this is s'posed a throwback game to ie, we would be very much surprised if game were not built around a mechanic to support squad-based tactical combat with role-play elements. HA! Good Fun!

And 'lack o' imagination'? Really? How about this then, Grom: yeah, I know there are ability checks, but the game is skewed to combat. you keep saying that like it means something. you already admitted that ps:t offered an excellent role-play experience in spite o' the ad&d mechanics. and yeah, obsidian were specific making PoE so that it would be reminiscent o' the ie games... all the ie games. so there shouldn't be a surprise that the game mechanics is at least familiar to those who played the combat-skewed ie mechanics games. PoE is less skewed in favor o' combat than were ie games, and ps:t were delivering a, in your words, "a kick-ass roleplay experience." and many o' the same guys who made ps:t is also working on PoE, particularly Chris Avellone. ... sorry. is nothing to see here. am not certain why you so much wish for there to be a problem, but there ain't. would Gromnir prefer if PoE had more obvious non-combat mechanics. actually, yes. so what? combat mechanics o' d&d never handicapped our role-play in pnp and it didn't hamstring black isle when they made ps:t. PoE is a ie throwback, so we ain't surprised by the games mechanics. None Of Which Has Any Relevance to Why The Developers Has Chosen to Go with Quest XP Over Per Kill XP. we capitalized 'cause the relevant point seems to getting lost... again. *shrug* as pnp d&d and ps:t revealed, mechanics is not a true obstacle and the folks who made the mechanics, including both cain and sawyer, sees quest as a superior way to makes all builds viable. furthermore, and yet again, "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player." regardless o' the seeming combat focus o' the mechanics, provide the superior alternative. obsidian may send you a cloth map or signed copy if you invent such a Unicorn. HA! Good Fun!

and again, ps:t was an ie game. also, replay watchers keep and observe how many quests per level were included. people are imagining problems, problems which do not seem to be an issue for the PoE QA folks or the obsidian developers... which is including sawyer AND cain. Gromnir is quite willing to fight the good fight even if there is no chance o' winning, but that just ain't the case with quest xp. sure, the dedicated resistance is wasting their efforts, but more important, there ain't a genuine issue to be fighting for. you wanna see ticks o' 10s and 50s and 100s xp rather than getting in larger increments. *shrug* even if that were somehow meaningful, nobody has yet provided a more elegant, simple and perfectly balanced alternative. soooo... sorry, but there simple ain't an issue here worthy o' all the efforts. HA! Good Fun!

or you can accept that a poll such as this represents only the barest fraction o' purchasers and that regardless o' poll results the developers will be more interested in how QA folks actual play the game and alter their behaviors based on quest xp rewards... meaning this is largely a pointless endeavour. nevertheless, it don't hurt to do yet another poll on the same issue that has zero chance o' being changed at this point regardless o' results, so knock yourselves out. HA! Good Fun! ps we didn't add a vote

oh, we know there is only so much money in the kitty for this game, but this is a new IP from obsidian. feargus and others has made this point a few times. there is a great motivation for them to get this game to fans in reasonable condition particularly as they would like to make more PoE games in the future. am far less concerned about them rushing this product out the door than if there were a publisher involved. would you not agree? *shrug* am currently not concerned. we haven't seen improvements to beta, and the december target doesn't matter much to us regardless... though technically they can lawyer up the release nonsense and claim that winter 2014 ends in late march. HA! Good Fun!

am gonna wait and see how much progress is made with the first patch. keep in mind that many o' the issues you observe were known issues Before beta release, so is not as if obsidian only started working on fixes. that being said, we is not optimistic about a december release, but we don't genuine care either. if it takes an extra month, or longer, to get game well and fully stable and to adjust based on player feedback (not the xp system, 'cause that ain't changing,) then so much the better. is no publisher that need be satisfied by getting game figuratively on the shelves by thanksgiving or some fiscal quarter target to satisfy quarter report expectations. let it cook a bit longer if it is needed. have good game in january or february, as opposed to december, is not a problem for Gromnir. HA! Good Fun!

you probably didn't play bg2 watcher's keep? this issue doesn't require much imagination to fit quests into such levels. even iwd had such opportunities in dragon's eye and the severed hand. we ain't talking about diablo where the only gameplay is killing monsters, yes? we know you like relative straightforward killing o' mobs... in tunnels, but you is not giving the developers much credit if you thinks a large dungeon crawl hamstrings them. you don't believe that obsidian can do as well with quests in dungeons as bio did with watcher's keep? am s'posing that is fair, but am guessing it is more wishful thinking on your part as you is a proud proponent o' Kill Stuff in Tunnels as the height o' crpg gaming. nothing wrong with that, but it don't appear to be the direction obsidian is heading. HA! Good Fun!

you can ask any question you wish, but if it don't present a genuine problem, it isn't actual relevant. if you wanna imagine problems, that is ok too, as you said, it is an open forum, but the mere fact that the game mechanics is combat focused does not preclude role-play. any original d&d and ad&d pnp player can tell you that combat focused mechanics is hardly sending mixed signals about the importance o' role-play in such games... though troika didn't seem to understand this when making toee. regardless, ps:t highlights the fact that combat skewed mechanics does not limit rp options, and as already noted, PoE adds far more rp mechanics than existed naturally in ps:t. also, your lack o' imagination regarding PoE ability checks is amusing but illustrative. am thinking you clear ain't trying to be fair. as we said, ps:t did far more with far less regardless. aside, am thinking chrisA were suffering from the schadenfreude josh mentioned in quoted portion earlier. after all, he took swords out o' ps:t because? he also made wisdom the clear Win ability score in spite of the fact that you could not play as a cleric. the horrible balance o' ps:t, in spite of the availability o' non-traditional ie game role-play solutions to quests were exemplified by the fact that once you know that playing a high wisdom (with emphasis on charisma and intelligence) no other builds were genuine worth playing in subsequent runs through o' ps:t. play a straight vanilla fighter in ps:t with crappy wisdom and charisma? why? quest xp mighta helped... a bit, but game were woeful unbalanced. HA! Good Fun!

It was my experience that grandmastery in bows was hardly needed anyway. I found that my level 2-3 archer thief (pure thief, proficient with shortbows) was not only doing more damage but was tactically far more useful than any of my melee classes. For all the power of those pesky Quadratic mages, a Baldur's Gate party where five of your party are skilled with bows will destroy just about everything that is in the vanilla game that has flesh on its bones. My experience of PoE so far (which is limited due to my frequent, 32-bit, crashes) is that ranged characters are nowhere near as powerful as they were in BG. grandmastery wasn't needed. however, bis tried to do some things to curb bow power. one was addressing bow proficiency. sensuki mentions totsc levels, but of course even with totsc, iwd levels were higher. regardless, the iwd developers were quite aware that bows in bg were silly powerful, thus they tried making changes. HA! Good Fun!

This is a good post, IMO. The problem I personally have with the game as presented so far isn't so much that I think there's an inherent flaw with quest-only XP. In fact, I kind of like the idea of quest-only XP. But to me, the game is sending mixed signals with the design and mechanics. I still can't grasp the thinking behind giving no reward for combat kills, while every ability, spell, and talent in the game that I've seen so far is oriented toward making the character better at... killing and combat. If the whole idea is to give you alternate methods of solving quests and no matter how you do it, you get the same XP award, then why are there no talents, spells, abilities or even racial and class perks that will help you build a character that can be more effective at solving quests without combat? ***Thank you for you attention while I beat this dead nag to a fine paste.*** even if you see "mixed signals" am not seeing a genuine relevant question. sure, the ie games were squad-based tactical combat games with rpg elements. is not surprising that when obsidian attempts to recreate a game that feels like the ie games, the mechanics will be combat focused. the d&d mechanics used in ps:t were also combat focused, but it would be myopic to suggest that combat were the focus of ps:t. similarly, in spite of the fact that people seem extreme dismissive o' the relative mechanical relevance o' ability scores, Gromnir has found even in the small sampling o' encounters in the beta, non-combat aspects is extreme important. perception and intellect don't show up in combat logs, but they has already been significant in Gromnir resolving quests. in PoE, in addition to fireballs and battle axes and accuracy and deflection, there is intellect, resolve, lore, mechanics and other aspects o' the game that can lead to successful quest completion. is many o' the same folks making PoE as made ps:t. PoE has far more mechanical options for non combat resolutions than did ps:t and yet we can only hope PoE does similar as ps:t with non-combat quest resolutions... and quest based xp makes it far easier for the developers to award players appropriate and proportional for non-combat actions than ps:t ever did. and lord knows we don't want specific xp awards for exploration. that would be a personal nightmare for Gromnir as it would be recollecting the worst aspects of BG. wandering through largely empty wilderness maps, hoping we might run into a mob o' kobolds or gnolls or wolves just to have made the past thirty minutes of wandering relevant. to actual have some kinda xp pay-out to give value to such nonsense is... disturbing. exploration should not be a reward objective. compelling quests discovered and completed is what we look forward to, and if some exploration makes such questing more fulfilling, then so be it, but exploration xp? *shudder* HA! Good Fun!

am assuming you have been busy with rl the past couple years? hope all is well. Gromnir was gone from the boards for about 18 months as well. in any event, we suspect that the most telling aspect o' the current debate is the absolute silence from the obsidian developers regarding the current squabble over the xp mechanic. absolute nothing has been added to the dialogue by boardies, so the developers feel they have no need to respond to what is essentially... noise. in any event, we hope to see you post more frequent... right up until you say something we disagree with. joke. we joke. HA! Good Fun!

that is a fair point. sadly for you, the folks working on the game is cain and sawyer and the obsinaties, nevertheless, am thinking you would get more mileage if you could, "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player." otherwise all you got is a gut feeling that runs contrary to the opinions o' the folks actual working on PoE. you can see how such a position would not be particular compelling, yes? but flog away, is your time and the horse is dead, so he/she won't care. to greyfox: the developers is very much aware that combat will represent the majority of gameplay, which is precisely why an xp mechanic that does not favor combat is invaluable in a ROLE-PLAY game that seeks to make all builds equal viable. ... where is the disconnect? HA! Good Fun!

... "The only issue addressed here is Obsidian not wanting to do nor having the time(i guess) to add a better/more in-depth XP system." a better system than one that guarantees that regardless o' how a player chooses to resolve a quest or task, they will all be afforded the same xp, thus encouraging no single playstyle over another? "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player." show us. sorry, you folks is not making sense. you may wish to believe that xp systems that provide superior xp rewards for particular actions will have negligible impact on the choices players make in character development and in game, but the developers who actually gets to witness qa results and feedback from many gameplay experiences disagree with you. but again, the horse is dead. am only curious what is preventing some small group o' very sincere but misguided folks from failing to recognize what seems so obvious to folks such as Gromnir... and the obsidian developers... and the troika developers such as cain. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

That's not the reason why they eliminated Kill XP. So why bring it up? This game has a level cap. Which means double-dipping the XP rewards will only ever work until it can't anymore. And then after that everything will be equal for everyone regardless of how they got to the cap. sure it is part o' the reason. you haven't been paying attention. when developers speak o' how players will exploit or game the xp system, Gromnir example is exactly what they is talking about. this is getting bizarre... "We all understand the concept. Nobody is unaware of the concept. We got it, you like the concept. No matter what you do, or how you play, everybody is the same. We are all the same. Huzzah! Sameness. The more ingenious you are when tackling the problem is rewarded exactly the same as a derp derp sword jockey. Nothing like the smell of sameness in the morning." yes. congrats. you see wrongness with a Role Play Game that makes alternative Role Play Choices equally viable? we hope not. smell o' sameness o' reward in a role-play game that we might wanna actual replay again at some point in the future is a Good thing, not something worthy o' derision and scorn. ... somebody cue the outer limits theme music, please. HA! Good Fun! ​ps 'cause we know how unobservant stun may be, am not saying the only reason for use of quest xp is to prevent exploitation or gaming of xp system, but it is a factor that has been commented 'pon by developers.

hey, good for you all, but developers has actual observed the behavior o' players and they note that Gromnir's behavior is common. people will go back and get the XP win option if there is such an option. *shrug* doesn't matter though, does it? quest xp complete negates the issue entirely. regardless o' playstyle, we get same xp. that realization will sink in eventually. ... may take a little longer to realize that even nietzsche wouldn't weep for this horse. you folks has beat the corpse into a pulpy mass in spite o' fact that multiple developers has given rationales for the superiority o' quest, including cain and sawyer. you also ignore that as this game is in beta, so the issue is no longer relevant for this game. and most important, you continue to ignore the challenge posed: "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player." manage to come up with a better mousetrap and no doubt obsidian will applaud your efforts. HA! Good Fun!

ah, our bad. ziets gets fanfare around here and we honestly don't know much o' him other than motb... which we thought were hit and miss. HA! Good Fun! ps am thinking we keep spelling his name incorrect too. bad on us for that at least.

That's not possible. You can't divide by zero. lol *pats stun on head* its ok, mean old Gromnir won't hurt you. we were chastised by mods so now you gets the special kid treatment. have a cookie and some juice and am sure everything will seem better in the morning. we will note that going this route does threaten thread lockage, so try and say something relevant. zeits worked on troika vampire game, yes? weren't that quest xp? am not recalling. guess he couldn't even convince the folks at troika o' his views on the subject. 'course, we didn't play the vampire game, so perhaps we is wrong that it used quest xp. "Also how would something all of the sudden stop being fun because you realized someone else had more experience points than your digital character did in a SP game when you were previously having a blast?" well, that is obvious. if we realize that we is gonna be handicapping our player by continuing to use stealth, we will likely reduce our reliance on stealth. part of fun o' the game for us is leveling and getting new skills and abilities. force us to chose between a playstyle we prefer and voluntary gimpage is wholly unnecessary IF we use quest xp. problem solved. think us a philistine for wanting good xp payoff and fun playstyle? *shrug* is not a problem with quest xp. HA! Good Fun!

is admittedly a far more compelling debate subject than quest xp v. ad hoc. heck, it may even be more relevant. ... sadly, 'cause this may diminish us in the eyes o' some, we is more o' a picasso aficionado. HA! Good Fun!

indeed. unfortunately, obisidan is making a game for everybody who will play PoE. we can luck into a mess and find that the experience were exhilarating. we got a story about halloween in isla vista back in 1992... but that is another story for another time... and a whole different kinda unexpected mess. a PoE player with messed up character development choices is a whole different issue. poor schmuck thought that playing stealthy would be fun too... seeing as how obsidian has said many times that there won't be bad builds 'n all. and heck, maybe it were fun, right up until he realized he were getting 1/2 the xp o' the slaughterhouse player. that is the kinda mess quest xp avoids. we like Jackson Pollock, but as a game designer, am thinking that mess is not a viable mechanical or aesthetic choice. HA! Good Fun!

I think the previous poster's example is bad, but he makes a valid point. If anything, an RPG should be rewarding the player for RP, not asking them to RP to make up for its own design failures. Agreed, but removing combat xp entirely is not the only solution to this supposed problem. with quest xp, you get combat xp. you also get stealth xp. you get diplomacy xp. you get we-never-expected-you-to-complete-that-quest-that-way xp. quest xp does not discriminate or punish. however you choose to accomplish a task or quest, you receive xp. thus, if you killed every bug, mammal and mystical beast on the map and vanquished the ultimate boss with a hammer blow to the head, you is receiving combat xp. everybody wins. nobody loses. socialists everywhere should be rejoicing. and yes, we know that ain't what you meant by combat xp, but functionally, quest xp simply removes the need or point o' distinguishing. HA! Good Fun! Thank you gromnir, I'm aware of your position. I also understand how quest only XP works. Not sure how socialism fits into all this? Not a fan of it myself, I guess you are? Looks like there is something else we don't agree on! actually, no. am not a socialist. bad assumption there. regardless, quest xp does solve problems o' balancing combat xp and other varieties o' xp... which makes us all the more perplexed when people come up with gut-level rejections o' a simple and elegant mechanic that makes style o' play a non factor in balancing xp rewards. HA! Good Fun!

I think the previous poster's example is bad, but he makes a valid point. If anything, an RPG should be rewarding the player for RP, not asking them to RP to make up for its own design failures. Agreed, but removing combat xp entirely is not the only solution to this supposed problem. with quest xp, you get combat xp. you also get stealth xp. you get diplomacy xp. you get we-never-expected-you-to-complete-that-quest-that-way xp. quest xp does not discriminate or punish. however you choose to accomplish a task or quest, you receive xp. thus, if you killed every bug, mammal and mystical beast on the map and vanquished the ultimate boss with a hammer blow to the head, you is receiving combat xp. everybody wins. nobody loses. socialists everywhere should be rejoicing. and yes, we know that ain't what you meant by combat xp, but functionally, quest xp simply removes the need or point o' distinguishing. HA! Good Fun!