Gromnir

penetration still makes weapons such as flail and great sword sucky, regardless of lash for the falil and in spite o' the burn/pierce for the firebrand-- the weapons am particular familiar with is firebrand and the flail for eothas. sure, with a chanter skald constant reducing armour we can achieve functionality, but is not worth usage save in extreme limited situations... which would be fine in poe, but not deadfire. the priest spell catalog is far too small. even for specific multiclass builds, am not seeing much utility as long as the current penetration scheme is in place HA! Good Fun!

@ jkruger: only needed response to the reply/quote mess: we keep saying reasonable and rational. is an observation 'bout the lack o' both necessary qualities and defaulting to a feel response. though we will say we don't mind if you wanna quibble over insinuation v. opinion. *snort* every other development o' a sequel has faced similar issues. the folks demanding bg grandmastery or lamenting the state o' iwd ranged were similar riled. those folks lamented the loss o' the distinctness o' their previous builds. rare did such folks come out and says that their concerns were simple power-related. you see insinuation? fine. would be foolish and unreasonable to ignore parallels to every other sequel development we has followed. this time is different? this issue is different? people are not asking for universal access to field triage. be reasonable. *chuckle* in the absence o' rational and reasonable, we look to dozens o' similar parallels, including every bis/obsidian sequel. and to kat21... you are simple repeating same empty argument. there is no question you can build a weapon-based druid in deadfire. is ridiculous to claim otherwise. the method o' achieving is multi-class. the fact deadfire and poe weapon-focused druids is not the same is a given, but so what? you get more options from deadfire, far more. sure, you cannot exact replicate every old poe build, but such is not a flaw in and of itself. is no more meaningful than any other random observation. "i like trees." well, good for you. the method obsidian would use within the current system to addresses concerns 'bout lack o' customization in the 1/2 talent trees we has seen for classes so far is to make adjustments to individual classes. again, am assuming overall scheme stays same. add talents to a class is relative insular changes. even so, add talents to priest tree and one must consider impact o' not only multi-classing, but the plethora o' gear we ain't even seen yet. make changes to priest alone is having impact on many other classes. can't see how universal talents much complicates balancing? multiply the possible changes and breakages one would need contend with if only making adjustments to the priest. nightmare. furthermore, which talents is folks clamoring to be having made universal accessible? inspite o' jk three wise monkey routine, there is clear talents which folks is clamoring for to be general accessible, and many others they is less concerned 'bout. classes is, like it or not, requiring defining features and abilities. is no point to a class if all talents is general accessible. is far less motivation to multi-class when multi-class carries with it the handicap o' power level reduction and ability level diminution w/o making particular compelling builds achievable only through multiclass. is a trade-off. start making certain talents general accessible and you necessarily diminish the appeal o' multiclass. etc. but am simple repeating self as is kat21. game has been in our hands less than a week. we advocated obsidian waiting to make any kinda changes for obvious reason we has had game for so little. is immediate obvious what poe builds cannot be replicated in deadfire, but none o' us has experience with the full range o' possibilities o' deadfire. compare the two systems (and again, we only got 1/2 o' deadfire talents n' a fraction o' gear) and find deadfire lacking would seem a premature conclusion for obsidian to make at this point. sure, some folks has already played dozen o' hours and has reached a conclusion they will not budge from regardless o' developer feedback or recognition this kinda reaction has happened with pretty much every sequel evar, but obsidian should be more measured. most o' us has played, at most, a couple-handful of different builds, and not have much time invested in such builds... and only at levels 6-8 (or 9). premature. HA! Good Fun!

you continuing to gloss over how are able to create many more new builds in deadfire than you could create in poe. is not a different problem. you ain't making sense. to make a weapon-focused druid in poe, the character chose the appropriate (essential) general talents. there were no multiclassing in poe. poe2 achieves greater customization through multiclassing. can make a weapon-focused druid in both games, but the method to achieve must needs be different. the options for a weapon-focused druid in deadfire is much greater than those available to a player o' poe. can choose to multi-class with fighter or rogue or paladin or barbarian and each has unique advantages and drawbacks, but if goal is to make a weapon-focused druid, then you got far more options in deadfire. is no denying such an observation. sure, you lose poe specific builds, but ultimately the range o' options for customization is massive improved in deadfire. with all the new multiclassing options, were a forgone conclusion there would be balance issues. (see josh pinned tweet 'bout balance if you are one o' those folks irrational dismissive o' all balance concerns.) the new scheme allows base classes to remain distinct and controllable. more options and better balancing scheme. so why the reluctance to use multiclassing to achieve a weapon-focused druid? naming nomenclature? please. there is a cost for achieving customization through multiclassing. is that the issue? claim is a separate issue is silly. is 'bout achieving a character concept and putting tools to match such a concept in the hands o' the player. compartmentalize single class v. multiclass is illusory. HA! Good Fun!

It also relies on you trusting the devs to make cool weapons of every type. In PoE1, some weapon type had almost no uniques, and this'll be even more obvious in Deadfire because of the changes to enchantment, so you can't just make a good weapon of that type. If you end up of a devoted of a weapon type that has very few uniques in the actual game, you're screwing yourself at character creation without even knowing it. soulbounds were the obsidian solution to the difficulty o' making certain every poe weapon had equal appealing uniques. it makes sense to have the soulbound solution carryover to deadfire. however, soulbounds, if implemented in deadfire same as in poe, would likely result in a significant dilution o' the devoted's penalty/handicap. as far as we can tell, priestly spiritual weapons and the firebrand are not current having the universal quality. am admitted not certain if the lack o' universal is intentional, oversight or bug. absence o' such a quality does make spiritual weapons and similar such far less appealing as other than skaen stilettos, the weapon choices is armour piercing weak. at the moment, a weapon-focused character not utilizing an ap weapon is a suspect proposition. didn't check, but am assuming skaen priest spiritual weapon is stilettos. if such is the case, am seeing early game benefits to taking spiritual weapon on a skaen priest or skaen priest multi-class. otherwise... HA! Good Fun!

There's plenty of evidence that builds or options that I, or others, might want to use can't be done, or require multiclassing to achieve. You don't think that's a legitimate criticism of the system but to claim otherwise is simply wrong. this is the kinda thing am talking 'bout. is a given you cannot replicate every poe build in deadfire. keep repeating the deadfire impossible builds tragedies is pointless. nobody is arguing with you on this point. is unreasonable 'cause you see such an axiomatic result as a problem w/o describing why is a problem beyond feels. not rational. even the folks complaining 'bout their inability to replicate specific poe builds in deadfire freely admit that deadfire is giving them more customization options in total. folks such as boeroer were concerned during development 'bout the balance problems inherent in multiclassing poe with so many distinct classes and talents and the current multi-class scheme allows for far more control o' such balance issues than would universal talents. etc. each additional posting o' impossible poe builds using deadfire is irrational. it proves nothing and nobody is arguing the point you believe such postings is making. am thinking you would admit how ridiculous it would be if every time a poe impossible build were submitted as evidence, the response were to post two deadfire builds which would be impossible in poe. nevertheless, while the inanity o' such evidence seems obvious, you nevertheless proffer the impossible poe builds as meaningful. irrational. unreasonable. and if you got hung up on Gromnir stating an alternative rationale in the absence o' reasonable responses from the poe universal talent advocates, feel free to add the obvious implied "it is Gromnir's opinion," to such posts as necessary. *eye roll* HA! Good Fun! ps throwing up your hands and dismissing the entire issue as an emotional appeal is equal ridiculous. reductio ad absurdum is not a good way to respond to Gromnir's claims. you do not honest believe the changes made by obsidian were based on gut-level feel, do you? is hard and cold reasoning from obsidian which resulted in the current multi-class system. changes made achieve increased customization while also maintaining the ability to better regulate and balance o' the much expanded customization options. as Gromnir observed earlier, every sequel in which the developers removes powerful features has resulted in negative backlash. the current fanbase reaction to multiclassing is hardly unpredictable. in spite o' predictable outcome, obsidian changed the poe system anyways.

alien spaceship? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/more-details-released-first-interstellar-object-cross-our-solar-system-180967277/ probable not a spaceship, but kinda nifty. HA! Good Fun!

am finding this to be exploitable with our own skald characters. single weapon spear or club with negligible ap in the hands o' the correct hearth orlan skald multi-class receives abundant crits, and the damage from the crits is o' little concern when am able to functional spam invocations. HA! Good Fun!

we didn't "get" penetration until late in our first playthrough of the beta. subsequent experimentation has proven less difficult, but increasing more frustrating. is not the gameplay which frustrates but the meta gameplay... so to speak. as long as Gromnir makes a party built 'round defeating armour, we win. am doubtful the game is playing as intended, but am not certain. frustrating. HA! good Fun!

seems to occur when point being clicked is considerable distant from current location. ship travel is not full functional at this point. is possible any number o' feedback options would be resulting by means o' the scribbling quil. travel to point X will require Y water and Z food? no such feedback 'cause those aspects o' ship travel is current disabled? numerous possibilities we can imagine... but we got a good imagination and am likely complete wrong. HA! Good Fun!

I assume you have evidence for this statement, what with you preferring rationality over feelings. is perfect rational to, in the absence of rational and reasonable criticism regarding the current scheme, suggest an alternative reason for universal talents is actual at work. even proponents o' universal have admitted deadfire provides more options. folks admit how it is indeed possible to play a weapon-focused druid in poe and deadfire just as amentep has observed. nevertheless we got complaints 'bout naming nomenclature for chrissakes. what you don't seem to realize is that the folks wedded to the old system actual has not yet provided the kinda evidence you is demanding. is an appeal to feel. as we stated earlier, and you seeming failed to notice, is a fundamental truth that there is no way to reject with reason and rationality what boils down to feel. we observed it is a mistake to assume fans is reacting with rationality or exhibiting reason. past a certain point, is a mistake to try and argue against feel... but again, am repeating self. is no evidence for your feels other than the absence o' reason and rational. so, congrats? HA! Good Fun!

Perhaps I'm wrong (and its probably been suggested before as I only skimmed the thread) but it seems to me that perhaps the idea is that if your PoE was picking a lot of "fighting" talents for your druid, you were already creating a Fighter-Druid multiclass and that idea is being codified into the multiclass system. you are correct, but now there is a handicap for making such a character. in poe your druid could pick the fighting talents and still get the highest level druid abilities. unfortunate, to get similar deadfire results, one needs make hard choices. deadfire multi-class provides many more opportunities to customize than were possible in poe, but one need sacrifice a power level and ability tier to do so. is the real issue at work, though is not being admitted by many. sacrifice perceived power to get similar to what they already had in poe is unacceptable to many. is largely an entitlement issue. and sure, there is a few unique builds which cannot be replicated by deadfire. is multiple classes which may have the talents a player wants, but being limited to a dual multiclass prevents the possibility o' achieving such builds. 'course, as as been stated innumerable times and is not actual being contested, deadfire gives back more than it takes-- while there is poe builds made impossible in deadfire, the total number o' customization options has increased significant. HA! Good Fun!

is one reason we asked for feedback. figured it would be much easier for obsidian to tell us how is intended to work than to experiment and then not know if results is due to devoted bug... or not. HA! Good Fun!

*chuckle* lack o' specific criticisms is not a problem for us. you clear haven't been paying attention, even in this thread. have observed, to the point o' it being spammish, how a few o' the classes need improvements to their talent trees. is a balancing issue as the most desirable talents is gonna be the talents the developers is most reluctant to provide, but we specific recommended expanding the talent tree o' the priest. am not needing go through every complaint and alternative Gromnir recommended for poe as we would be here a LONG time. regardless, not only did we recommend alternatives in this thread, but am suspecting the criticism o' our failure to offer improvements will meet with some amusement from long-time posters. ... actual, 'pon reflection, our single biggest complaint and suggestion for poe were already corrected/adopted in deadfire. can't recall how many times we asked for greater feedback from the combat log. more than once we pointed out how long it took for the community to figure out if crit damage were additive or multiplicative, or how long it took to figure out traps were busted... and how they were busted. our suggestion (and we were hardly alone, so am not trying to take credit) o' being able to scroll-over accuracy and other aspects o' the combat log to get more detailed feedback were adopted by obsidian, and improved. hold-shift is sparkly. single biggest improvement we has seen thus far in the beta, and is much overlooked. btw, we has specific recommended obsidian not cave to the demands o' those demanding universal talents. we gave specific and detailed reasons why am against such. absence o' universal talents would improve the game compared to the proposed alternatives. happy? silliness. HA! Good Fun!

devoted already changes the mechanic o' a class. am simple curious 'bout how far the developers is taking the change. at the moment, particular with the penetration aspect o' deadfire combat, choosing a high penetration weapon is a no-brainer. devoted stacks additional ap to whatever the weapon has inherent. most penetrating weapons is piercing, save for the warhammer. so Devoted Dan chooses an estoc and is cutting through deadfire foes like a wolverine set loose in a chicken coop... right up until he meets the foe with piercing immunity or piercing armour o' 45 or some such similar nonsense. the advantages o' devoted is significant. however, once the devoted bug is fixed, the appeal o' devoted is gonna dwindle somewhat when the single weapon limit is enforced. -10 accuracy and no devoted benefits for any weapon save the devoted. is a serious penalty to balance serious power. soulbound and universal is a proverbial monkey wrench in the gears. for example, the priest classes all have a 2nd tier spell which creates a universal weapon. priest o wael gets quarterstaff, yes? so our devoted/priest o' wael with devotion to estoc can have crush and pierce covered easily with all benefits o' devoted applying to the quarterstaff, and will be covered quite early in the game. is not as if you will need play half of the game before you get a spiritual weapon as a devoted/priest o' wael. maybe find a soulbound greatsword? pretty much got all the basic damage types covered and all his 2h fighter weapon benefits is gonna apply as well as all the devoted goodies. the big limit for the devoted becomes... less. am curious. HA! Good Fun!

bigger issue for us at the moment is class skill bonuses. with all the new skills, and with stoopid anachronism o' classes providing inherent skill bonuses, am typical not knowing what our initial skill loadouts will be until After we have completed character creation. by the time deadfire is available, am certain we will know what the starting skill bonuses for a howler is, but at the moment we do not. is doubtful new players will know such minutiae. the backgrounds is swell and all, but would be more useful if during character creation we knew exact what were being modified by the backgrounds. HA! Good Fun!

just a thought, but am thinking it might be a good idea to keep the 130% cap for penetration overkill. am finding it is easy, if one is obsessive 'bout such, to exploit penetration. there is foods and weapons and class talents/abilities which all affect penetration. with the current system, am finding many ways to achieve consistent penetration overkill. at 130% damage for overkill am already seeing a few potential broken multiclass combos. HA! Good Fun!

devoted fighter is current not working as intended. however, regarding universal weapons, am not certain of intent. for example, will a devoted fighter/priest o' eothas be able to create a firebrand and benefit from devoted fighter keenness, or will the firebrand suffer a -10 accuracy penalty if the player is devoted to pollaxes? one would assume 'cause o' the nature o' soulbounds, the devoted benefits would apply to all weapons which would be categorized as universal, but am not certain. developer feedback would be appreciated. thanks in advance. HA! Good Fun!

from our pov, if we understand correct, the main benefit o' the racial benefits is a bit counter-intuitive. if am playing our typical tanky wild orlan paladin with elevated intellect and resolve, our will defense is gonna be almost unassailable, particular now with the removal o' most/all (?) graze afflictions. the reduction o' a successful resolve affliction by 1 tier is swell and all for our tank, but the best use we can see from such racial talents is to use'em to counter a weak defense. poe foes seem to have a preternatural ability to target the member o' our party with the weakest defense to... whatever. poe fampyrs attempting to charm will target weakest will defense character. 'cause o' high will defense and enemy ai, the characters with these fancy new racial abilities is the characters least likely to need 'em... unless one builds counter-intuitive. coastal aumaua with bad fort saves benefits most from racial ability, no? is same for orlans and wood elves. is the characters who is most likely to fail to defend 'gainst afflictions who most benefit from the trait. not complaining, but is kinda weird, no? might result in a few unexpected builds. HA! Good Fun! ps if somebody already mentioned our observation, am apologizing as we only scanned the thread after obsidian clarified.

your example does not actually show what you believe it does. you reveal the impossibility o' replicating a specific build in deadfire, and that is all. the increase in customization options with deadfire compared to poe is beyond question. the number o' additional wonky/weird/fun potential builds each core class now has available to 'em is expanded by a significant factor. flexibility, overall, has been much expanded. your example is, if anything, woeful misleading. and complaint 'bout fun... well, fun is subjective. your example don't actual show a decrease in fun. is no micrometer-o'-fun which we can utilize to compare poe to deadfire... particular as all we got is beta deadfire with 'bout 1/2 total abilities. could double-check, but am not thinking you could replicate your aforementioned poe build by level 8 or 9 anyway, eh? is unfair then on multiple levels. regardless, your example don't actual show a decrease in fun. however, am gonna once again concede how a couple classes need a little tlc insofar as their ability trees is concerned. there is considerable motivation to be utilizing a single-class caster as 'posed to a wonky/weird/fun build. the advantages o' access to higher level abilities and power levels is particular noticeable insofar as casters is concerned. unfortunate, priests must suffer not only compulsory school prohibitions but also extreme anemic spell catalogs and they not even have equivalent o' arcane veil or wild strike abilities such as the other casters. post level 1 priest customization is choosing two o' four available potential abilities at each ability level? regardless, we wish folks would stop with the poe build anecdotes. is no different than when folks shared bg2 examples during the poe beta. yes, is a given how there is more than a few poe-specific builds which deadfire cannot reproduce. different game made inevitable that some stuff would not carry over from poe to deadfire. however, deadfire allows many more customization options overall. each time a poe example is shared in theses threads it only makes more obvious to us how many additional deadfire builds poe would not be able to replicate. oh, and am gonna take this moment to indulge in "i told you so." is petty to remind, but pre-poe we were not quiet 'bout our thoughts regarding class-based crpg suckage. we wouldn't be having any o' these debates if poe had been developed free o' class limitations from the start. yeah, obsidian did a surprising good job with poe classes, but the flaws in the system began to serious show with a few particular classes and with the expansion bloat. now the developers is trying to find a way to add customizations via multi-class and subclasses w/o letting the whole system collapse under its own weight. the way they has chosen to keep the class-based system vital is by making the base classes more insular and discrete. makes sense. 'course people don't like sense when it means the developers take away bg grandmastery or nerf ranged weapons in iwd or universal accessible talents in deadfire. HA! Good Fun!

other example o' a crit exploit of swift flurry, but with a shadowdancer. am disliking shadowdancer name, so am calling this orlan avatar of death a shadowfist. helwalker/streetfighter. HA! Good Fun! ps this were not an optimized build.

We're looking at it from a different angle. My problem with AP vs AR right now is that being just 1 point short of your enemy's AR means your frontliner is useless in combat. A Fighter with a Fine estoc using the estoc modal has 12 AP; one of the lagufaeth kinds has 13 AR (can't recall which one.) The Fighter is useless against the lagufaeth and there isn't much else it can do in the fight except dealing minimum damage. The dip in DPS for being below an enemy's AR needs to be gradual. The extra 30% damage for exceeding an enemy's AR by 5 points is harder to get unless you are building your entire (custom) party around stacking AP and/or are purposefully fighting under-leveled foes. However, I understand the 30% is currently multiplicative, which is way too much bonus damage. It should be additive. This way it would be just another damage bonus you could pursue, as opposed to THE damage bonus you want because it's so much better than any other. If 30% additive is too little for what it takes to get it, let's go with 50% additive—same as a critical hit. It would still be more balanced than 30% multiplicative. for one beta run we played an orlan street fighter rogue/devoted fighter dual wielding stilettos in a party with a chanter who has the armour reduction invocation and a wizard with expose vulnerabilities. on a crit, at level 6, we were regular seeing 19.5 ap. were getting frequent crits. even without the addition o' the skald for armour reduction, the provided beta wizard will give you ar-2 with expose vulnerabilities, and the fighter's mace knocks off 1 point of ar. is loads o' ways to build ap and reduce armour... but is bad game design. best choice is to make ar a primary concern with correct weapon choices. choose classes such as cipher and devoted fighter to exploit ap... or find a build to maximize crit chances as crits give a huge ap bonus. such requirements is limiting choice. equal bad, casters don't appear to have as many penetration options as does weapon-based characters, so casters feel a bit underwhelming at the moment. obvious best/right/wrong character generation and development choices is bad design. is not difficult to defeat high ar even with the provided party, but defeating armour shouldn't need be an all-consuming concern. HA! Good Fun!

has been requested more than once. the obsidian developers responded to the appeal by expressing a willingness to consider such a feature... seemed to think it were a good idea, but practical limits of game development don't always result in every good idea being implemented. HA! Good Fun!

as far as we can tell, mr. sawyer has recognized the fact that numerous people is complaining 'bout the change from the open talent aquisition o' poe to deadfire's more insular and discrete base classes. obsidian is aware and discussing. is not the same as admitting there is actual a problem. in the intervening years since iwd, josh has become more politic and reflective. anybody expecting josh to go all monte-cook-ranger has another thing coming. heck, josh has largely abandoned the discussion of mechanics issues on these boards. regardless o' his announced reasons for being uncharacteristic taciturn, the obvious pointlessness o' arguing with folks emotional invested in... whatever, has no doubt taken its toll on josh. breaking point reached. far less confrontational is mature josh. too bad. am believing this issue is a monkey's paw trap. give folks the changes they desire, and they will understand rue. have already discussed this earlier, but more choices is what has killed every d&d edition. 2e kits or 3e prestige classes. the seeming need to add feats and/or spells and gear with every splatbook has done more to ruin each d&d edition than anything else. don't matter. more choice makes for more opportunities for breakage. is ironic, but add more inevitable leads to less functional customization as there will be clear correct character generation and development choices. deadfire expansions and a poe 3 is no doubt envisioned. keep adding bloat will break the rules. suggesting such implosion doesn't need happen to deadfire is ignoring axiomatic lessons o' history o' game development. obsidian's deadfire streamlining o' classes were a clear and conscious choice by the developers to avoid mistakes o' other game systems. a couple additional observations based on far too much interplay/black isle/obsidian message board posting: 1) there is often a disconnect between board feedback and actual fanbase impressions use a board thread as a barometer for how game purchasers will react to a feature or change is a dubious proposition. per kill xp were, for example, one o' the most hot contested aspects during the poe beta. not kidding. multiple threads saw seeming interminable debates. the 'mount o' energy and emotion invested into per kill xp were... curious. no marquess of queensberry rules neither. once game were made available, there were people who commplained 'bout poe's xp scheme. not many. sure, the rate o' xp gain were debated, but the lack o' anything other than token xp for killing stuff were a relative non factor. oh, and respec were gonna destroy the game... even if a player didn't use the feature. never quite understood that complaint, but it were debated tirelessly by true-believers on both sides on the issue. honest. 2) feel, regardless o' facts, is important our personal pov is to put reasonable and rational before feels. unfortunate, feels is ultimate what matters. if the fans find the deadfire changes to be irredeemably stifling, then they are, regardless o' how superior is deadfire customization. am guessing josh tends to fall on the reason v. feels spectrum similar to where Gromnir would be found. can be a flaw not to recognize/accept the feel of fans. HA! Good Fun!

am thinking the hearth orlan is underrated. at the moment, penetration is as fundamental a combat concern as accuracy, and deadfire crits is more significant than poe crits. a deadfire crit results in a large penetration bonus. in addition to basic crit damage, a large enough penetration advantage will provide a significant additional increase to damage. yes, the number o' total hits affected by hearth orlan racial will be as small as it were in poe, but the potential damage increase is greater due to penetration bonus. any build which is maximizing penetration will see a benefit from the hearth orlan racial... and there is a few classes and abilities which is synergizing particular well when attempting to max penetration. HA! Good Fun!

at 6th level? is that a trick question? answer is affirmative. there is hardly a certainty such weapons will be available in deadfire when a party would natural hit such levels, but even if they is, considering you play a party and not a single character, at least two other members in your party will have weapons equivalent to your fists. party strength is thus considerable increased, and in deadfire you are playing a party. now if you were to query whether the +6 is overkill when the monk hits level 14 and beyond, then am willing to concede we don't know. in poe, at high-level, monk fists became progressive inferior to constructed weapons. additional benefits beyond the accuracy bonus were the reason for such inequity. am not certain what the developers has done to correct the poe problem o' diminishing monk fist utility. obvious solution is a few more monk specific gearing options, but am in the dark at the moment. HA! Good Fun!