Livegood118

Good research. Will be useful for posterity. I'm not certain about the defence values for Paladin. 20 Base Deflection kind of stinks but you can more than make up for that through abilities. Inspiring Triumph and Shielding Flames stack with everything. Also +13 Deflection from Faith and Conviction with Deep Faith and then +20 All defences from Ryona's Breastplate. Someone more experienced with Paladins could probably give you the numbers, but I doubt they'd be able to beat the craziness of Priest Buffs? Crowns for the Faithful, Shields for the Faithful and then Symbol of Eothas = +70 Deflection. edit: not to mention the accuracy debuffs that priests can bring

Gafonercos has 139 accuracy on POTD. I think you'd need +85 over that to ensure constant misses, which is 224. All your other defences get such a tasty boost from Minor Avatar too – +32 Fort, +32 Reflex, +32 Will. Devotions for the Faithful's ACC debuff should hypothetically stack with other accuracy debuffs because it affects ranged and melee accuracy rather than general accuracy. With Blind you should be able to stack to -45 then, hypothetically. Edit: Funny it seems the one area the Priest really seems to fall down on is hard CC. All I can see is Pillar of Faith (Prone), Repulsing Seal (Prone) and Halt (Stuck). Plenty of very nice stackable soft CC though, but not many tools to outright debilitate enemies. To that extent Lore seems like it'd be a very good choice for a priest to get those scrolls of paralysis and scrolls of confusion for added flexibility. Even with low Per it doesn't seem like accuracy at high levels would be that much of a problem: + 20 (Base) + 45 (Levels) + 20 (Devotions) + 10 (other general accuracy buffs) + 10 (Inspiring Radiance) + 2 (Aggrandizing Radiance) + 8 (Minor Avatar) + 10 (Spell Bonus) + 5 (Distant Advantage) = 130 Could easily increase that a fair bit more through equipment and other abilities/spells.

Seeing this thread encouraged me to run some numbers on some offensive Priest spells, given how I've never really used Priests offensively before. I've assumed +100% damage for spells where scion of flame is applicable, then +80% for those where it isn't. 30 Intellect for double duration. These bonuses seem pretty achievable on most ordinary builds after a casting of minor avatar. All attacks vs 20 DR, so in reality you could expect to get a fair bit more against most enemies. Storm of Holy Fire 24 – 30 burn damage, 9 second base AVG Base DMG = 27 Base Damage*2 = 54 Base Duration*2 = 18 seconds = 7 procs AVG Damage roll = 54 54*7 - 20*7 = 238 damage over 18 seconds If crit add 12 – 15 damage each hit, more with related talents Shining Beacon 20 Damage ticks, 9 second base Base Damage *1.8 = 36 Base Duration *2 = 18 seconds = 7 Ticks on hit, 10 Ticks on Crit Hit = 36 * 7 - (DR*1.75) = 224 - 35 = 199 damage over 18 seconds Crit = 36 * 10 - (DR*2.5) = 320 - 50 = 270 damage over 27 seconds Hand of Weal and Woe 25 Damage per second for 10 seconds base Assume not affected by Scion of Flame and Intellect, vs full DR Base Damage*1.8 = 45 45 - 20 = 25 * 10 = 250, 500 if affected by intellect If crit add 12.5 damage per hit, more with related talents Cleansing Flame 30 Damage ticks, 5 sec base Assume not affected by Scion of Flame Base Damage *1.8 = 54 per tick Base Duration * 2 = 10 seconds = 4.33 ticks on Hit, 6 Ticks on Crit Hit = 54*4.33 - 20*1.25 = 209 damage over 10 secs Crit = 54*6 - 20*1.5 = 294 damage over 15 secs + Double DoT Damage Symbol of Eothas 15-25 Burn Damage, 20 seconds Base AVG Base DMG = 20 *2 = 40 damage 20 * 2 = 40 seconds Assume 15 hits (Approx) (40 - 20) * 15 = 300 Damage over 40 secs Conclusions Holy moly! Not bad. Shining Beacon and Cleansing Flame are what stand out the most to me. The fact they can all be stacked and then you can throw on some cleansing flames to the double damage seems insane and is making me want to do a Priest PC. A few questions – Can anyone confirm hand of weal and woe isn't affected by INT and Scion of Flame? I've assumed this is the case since I think the same is true for Antipathetic Field and Spirit of Decay – Can Cleansing Flame stack with itself? – How exactly does Spark the Souls of the Righteous Work? – Has anyone got the numbers on Holy Radiance? (Including disposition bonuses)

I've seen that video before. That barb is maxed out with food, potions , scrolls. Any high level char can do that if buffed like that But yeah is impressive No need to be adversarial my friend. I'm really just pointing out that rather than asking "what's the most powerful class" you might have a better discussion if you ask "what's the most powerful at [x]". It shouldn't be controversial to point out that in a class based based system different guys are better at doing a different things. As for the heart of fury video, I'd have to disagree and say that not every class can deal that much damage in an AoE that rapidly on a per encounter basis. In fact Heart of Fury probably gives you the highest short-term dps out of anything in the entire game.

Also, before you write Barbarians off, watch this video:

I appreciate people have preferred classes in this game but I don't think it's right to tier the classes in this way unless you're looking at specific jobs and/or scenarios. What often doesn't get factored in to these debates, as MaxQuest highlighted above, is stuff like being able to provide consistent/lazy damage, or being able to do a job without much micro. Also people have a tendency to focus on the end-game (e.g. level 15/16) rather than to look at the class's performance for the entirety of the game, which is much harder to measure. Gear can also lead to varying strengths/weaknesses between classes as well. So, for example, the question "Who is optimal to have for this Dragon Fight" vs "Who is optimal to have to fight these F****** Monks at the Abbey of the Fallen Moon" or "Who's got the defence to deal out sustained damage to these high threat foes?" all lead to different responses. So much depends on party composition too. I wouldn't say the classes are incommensurable. For example, barbs are hands down $hit to have around for dragon fights unless built in a specific counter-intuitive way, but are great for lots of other fights in the game.

Good point. Didn't think of that. A shame vulnerable attack doesn't really scale though.

I have to admit I've never actually used cleansing flame, only had it used against me! Is it really that good?

I don't really see much of a point in dual wielding if you can already hit near 0 recovery with a 2H unless: – There are specific weapon procs/abilities you want to use – You're trying to take advantage of full attacks Other than those examples it seems like 2H can outdamage DW in every single instance e.g. Cipher with Time Parasite/Outlanders Frenzy/DaoM Potion when needed and Wizard with Deleterious Alacrity all the time.

Yeah, as everyone's saying, Chants have base length as follows: Lvl 1: 4 Secs Lvl 2: 6 Secs Lvl 3: 8 Secs Lvl 4: 10 Secs Lvl 5: 12 Secs At levels 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 you get a reduction of the base by 10% through Brisk Recitation, so by level 16 the base chant length of a level 3 chant will be four seconds. Chant linger length is Chant Level + 1 seconds Base Chant is not affected by Intellect but intellect will increase the Linger Length (which can also be multiplied by 1.5 again on a crit).

Charm/Dominate/Confusion spells are insanely good. They create a buffer between you and your enemies, taking the heat away from you and allowing you to damage the other dudes. Charming/Dominating/Confusing more or less = a chance to cast summon spell in terms of effect, except it has the benefit of taking enemies away from combat. Be a bit careful though with passive/active AoE buffs that your own dudes put out. I went through the spell lists and these are the ones that I tend to cast most often when I use both classes: Wizard Level 1: – Chill Fog (long duration blind, combine with combusting wounds) – Eldritch Aim (+20 accuracy, to be cast before CC, stacks with devotions for faithful) – Slicken (AoE prone) – Spirit Shield (Good if you need concentration in a pinch – Wizard's Double (With hardened Arcane Veil you'll be more or less unhittable – Combine with Draining Wall!) – Concelhauts Parasitic Staff (Great in early game) Level 2: – Bewildering Spectacle (Useful in early game before Confusion at level 4, aoe Confuse) – Binding Web (Combine with Druid's form of the Delemgan) – Combusting Wounds (Combine with any non-DoT repeat damage spell/ability/attack, loads of damage!) – Curse of Blackened Sight (Party friendly long duration AoE blind, use when things too messy for chillfog) – Fetid Caress (Decent single target paralyses) – Miasma of Dull Mindedness (Good to soften up before will attacking spell) Level 3 – Deleterious Alacrity (One of the best buffs in the game, cuts recovery in half – with 0 armor penalty leads to no recovery for spells) – Expose Vulnerabilities (Better than dropping a fireball) – Kalakoth Minor Blights (With Blast, Penetrating Blast + Combusting Wounds + Deleterious Alacrity + expose vulnerabilities will pressure cook enemies) – Llengrath's Displaced Image (Good buff if under duress) Level 4 – Confusion (Great AoE confusion, party friendly) – Maura's Writhing Tentacles (Very good, keeps dudes locked down) – Ninagauth's Shadowflame (One of the best spells in the game, fast cast AoE Paralyse) – Ninagauth's Death Ray (Decent single target damage with good might) – Pull of Eora (Use to suck people for Barbarians/Citzals Spirit Lance) – Wall of Flame (great for interrupt/combusting wounds) Level 5 – Blast of Frost (Good nuke) – Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment (For when you really need a will spell to land) – Call to Slumber (One of the best AoE CCs in the game) – Malignant Cloud (Good Raw aoe damage, combine with – Ninagauth's Bitter Mooring (Good damage) – Ryngrim's Enervating Terror (Great Debuff) – Wall of Force (Good for combusting Wounds/Interrupt) – Citzals Spirit Lance (Has an AoE effect, does great damage) Level 6 – Gaze of the Adragan (Probably best CC spell in the game, petrified targets take 2x damage) – XXX Blunt Wisdom (Insane damage weapon summon, but gotten very late in game) – Ninagauth's Freezing Pillar (Good damage) Level 7 – Concelhaut's Crushing Doom (Insane single target prone, made for messing with dragons) – XXX Siphoning Image (Very good protection spell, gotten late) – Wall of Draining (Insanely good spell, can get infinite duration buffs = near invulnerability) – Chaotic Orb (Good when there's two targets) Level 8 – Kalakoth's Freezing Rake (Insane Damage) – Wall of Many Colours (Insane CC) Cipher Level 1 – Antipathetic Field (Insane damage for early game, withdraw a guy at a choke point then do this over them) – Whisper of Treason (useful from start to finish, fast cast single target long duration charm, messes up dragons) Level 2 – Mental Binding (Great AoE CC, cheap with good duration) – Phantom Foes (Use in combination with vs flanked resting bonus for certain classes, increases spell damage too) – Recall Agony (Good damage vs single targets) Level 3 – Ectopsychic Echo (Party friendly version of antipathetic field, cast on your own dudes) – Puppet Master (Dominate version of whisper of treason, insanely good, messes up dragons) Level 4 – Going Between (Nice defensive boost) Level 5 – Borrowed Instinct (If no Priest) – Ringleader (Great AoE dominate/charm debuff) – Tactical Meld (Stacks with every other ACC Bonus, great for landing CC against high def targets) Level 6 – Amplified Wave (Insane spell, damage and prone in massive area) – Disintegration (Insane single target damage, doesn't destroy loot!) Level 7 – Time Parasite (Will massively increase focus generation, though use deleterious alacrity potion in big fights) Level 8 – Defensive Mindweb (Hands down best defensive spell in the entire game, trivialises the late game) – Reaping Knives (Infinite focus generation, Insane)

Can't discount looks Stun is the better debuff though (-30 deflection stun vs -10 deflection prone) if you're looking to land physical crits. The axes might have better crits (assuming annihilation grants a better bonus than dual damage types) but if you'll probably crit more often if the dudes are under a stun debuff. All of this Monk chat is really making me want to do another run though, but Dark Souls 3 DLC is out in two weeks

My problems with long pain, and your mileage may vary, are: – It has a reasonably large cast/recovery time, which isn't great when you're under duress and is time you could have otherwise spent punching things in the face. – I find they increase the micro-management on a class that is already kind of micro-intensive. I like my Monks as somebody who can take hits on the frontline, but with long pain activated they'll actively sit in the back unless you manually position them in to place. Monks' AI is alright but you still need to belt out those torments reaches yourself if you want the most dps. Rebuttals to the above are obviously (1) they'll probably do more sustainable damage in the long run and are less dependant on having high wounds and (2) you have to micro monks a fair bit anyway and if you build your party around it this isn't an issue. Still, if I wanted a long range dps character, I'd probably still prefer to take a ranger. As for weapon chat, I'm finding the arguments for weapons vs fists kind of compelling in favour of weapons. It's very hard to discount a +15 accuracy bonus Torments Reach, but I'm wondering why we're then putting so much focus on Bittercut. Sure, Bittercut is amazing for damage because you get an extra +40% damage from the sabre bonus/Spirit of Decay and dual damage types, but why not go for dual Godansthunyr Instead? You'll get +1 Might, Stunning on Crit (which syngergises perfectly with enervating blows for continued supression), dual damage types and the hidden higher interrupt rating. You'd be able to: (1) Constantly knock out 2x AoE stuns in a wide radius with TR (2) Probably be interrupted a lot less by virtue of (1) (3) Crit more often with your Monk and other party members by virtue of the fact that the dudes you're attacking will often have -30 Deflection, –28 Fortitude, -46 Reflex, -28 Will from stunned/weakened. This is all assuming that weapon crit effects still apply to the TR radius, which I believe is the case? Boeroer?

Hey dude, I'm a little bit intoxicated right now but I did some sums on this earlier, and I'm not 100% certain if the initial maths of fists vs bittercuts is right: Fists 24% (Base Might) + 24% (Might items/boosts) + 15% (Sneak) = 63% (48% for fists bonus only) 10 – 15 *1.63 = 16 – 24 +12 damage (+2 unarmed shoes) = 14 * 1.48 = 21 16 – 24 + 21 = 37 – 45 avg = 41 20.5 = TR 12 = LS (With Heart of the Storm) 10.8/25 = TW +5 Vulnerable Attack = 90 W5/103 W10 Bittercut 11 – 16 24% (Base Might) + 45% (Superb) + 20% (Savage Attack) + 24% (Might items/boosts) + 15% (Apprentice Sneak) + 20% (Sabre) + 20% (Spirit of Decay) = 168% 11*2.68 = 29.5 16*2.68 = 43 AVG = 36 18 = TR 11/21.6 = TW 11 = WL (Heart of Storm) 11 = LS (Heart of Storm) = 87W5 /97.6 W10 So if the Monk attacks much faster with fists then it stands to reason fists do more damage. A crit on fists will add 5 – 7.5 of unmodified damage and a crit on durganised sabre will add 9 – 13 damage. edit: scion of flame should probably be factored in

Lol it's fine. Like I said, I wasn't completely sure about the attack speed maths.

Also a lot of people will recommend the Level 3 Chant Aeyfyllath Ues Mys Fyr. I've never found much use for it but test it yourself and see what you think!

Stats seem about right but I'd personally put more resolve in to Con and perhaps raise Per a bit more. The two tank builds by Boroer that you can find in the pinned thread at the top of this forum are both good: Drake's Ambassador – http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83491-class-build-the-drakes-ambassador-searing-mesmerizing-chanter-tank/ Chillfog – https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86968-class-build-chillfog-cool-soothing-chanter-tank/ The key chanter abilities you want to pick up are: – Come Soft Winds (for early levels) – Phantom Invocation – Level 2 Paralyse/Charm Invocations – The Dragon Thrashed – Seven Nights She Waited – Ogre Invocation Everything at levels 4 and 5 are both kinda pants. The two level 5 chants can be very good but you get them so late in the game Don't drop Might. Because of the way AI works in this game you need to do damage in order to keep aggro.

This is so true. Unless you're willing to manually spam those Torments Reaches the gap between the two classes narrows a fair bit. You can't discount willpower at the end of the day.

I'd say at this stage every class is pretty great and can be built to be very powerful. Most "gotcha" abilities for each class become available around levels 9 – 13. If any class is underpowered its probably the Rogue.

Yeah, the math seems to support the conclusion that in terms of pure damage under two reasonably optimised set-ups, meaning Monk has Scion of Flame, Lightning Strikes, Heart of Storm, Turning Wheel and is using torments reach liberally, and Fighter has most of the damage talents/abilities, that with a 2H wep like Tidefall the Fighter and the Monk will be more or less equivalent around the 3-4 wound mark, but after that the Monk's damage will take off like a rocket ship (this is without taking in to account the fact that TR will also do AoE damage, or that Monk's turning wheel/lightning strikes synergises with Fire Godlike Racial). I haven't done the math on the Monk's fists but it stands to reason they'd be even stronger than a fighter using 2H because of greater wound economy/speed. Still, the Fighter has a lot to bring to the table as has been pointed out by others in the thread. Once you've got Disciplined Barrage, Vigorous Defence, Confident Aim, Armoured Grace, (which should be taken on all fighter builds imo!) there's loads of other cool abilities like Unbending, Unbroken, Triggered Immunity, Charge, Overbearing Guard etc ... After both expansions fighters went from being a super boring class to a reasonably engaging one with lots of cool abilities/utilities.

- Lore 12 is for dialog options. There are a lot of lore checks in the game. I like it but you can stop on lore 8-10 if you want. - Abydon's hammer +4MIG and stun/encounter is great. The quick switch is only for scrolls, then change again to sword&board. With 3 res without enough deflection you're going down very quickly. - Shod in faith is also an option. But I usually have Maneha in my party so she's another candidate for this item. At the beginning of the game Shod-In-Faith is a no-brainer, but later on you can stack proc/crit items (Ray). - Accuracy vs racial type works with chants. I tested it against a troll and it got an increased value. (Early game 43 acc Soft winds of death, 58 acc against a troll) - Fortitude saves are nice. But this monster fortitude is better with defensive web All good points. My understanding was that accuracy vs racial types only worked when directly targeting but I'm glad that seems to have been corrected then! Edit: Just tested this myself – the boreal dwarf racial ability does indeed apply to Dragon Thrashed, as does Distant Advantage from Wood Elves. However, the survival resting bonus vs race does not work. Strange.

Also a few other things: – I'd probably only take Lore high enough to get level 5 scrolls. It should be possible to get the +60% bonus to healing then from survival, which would synergise well with all of your regen abilities – Rather than taking Abydon's hammer, you might consider using a single weapon for the +12 accuracy bonus, which applies to the Dragon Thrashed. Trading 12% increased base damage vs +12 accuracy is probably a pretty good idea considering the accuracy of Dragon Thrashed can't be uber boosted by Devotions for the Faithful or vs. racial abilities/distant advantage. Decent contenders might be a marking weapon (to increase your allies damage) or a weapon that stuns enemies (disables them which also increases ally damage and also making your dragon thrashed more likely to Crit). – The Stun effect on Abydon's is nice though I'll give you that - maybe it'd be worth trying to fit in an extra weapon slot so you can switch to it and use the stun when needed? – If rolling with a single weapon all the time then this guy would be the first person I'd put Shod in Faith boots for lots of healing. Going without a shield synergises well with all of the various crit items that you've got and you'll also get crit more often cause you're not using a shield. – You're probably aware of this, but the accuracy vs racial type bonuses only work with abilities that directly target the enemies - so while it'd go well with missile spells, it won't work with Maelstrom or Dragon Thrashed. – A side effect of your High Might/High Con approach is very high fortitude saves which are really useful.

Hmm - nice concept, but isn't dragon thrashed vs. Reflex?

This seems like a very useful guide for the purists out there. If there's a specific item I need for a character build from the stronghold I'll always just use Power Word: Console though. Pillars has a lot of interesting systems and mechanics but the Stronghold ain't one of them. It got better with the various quests that you get from it now but randomly playing "what item am I gonna get" and trying to game it by handing in quests at different times just doesn't sound fun to me. More power to you if you wanna get them cheevos.

Hmm - trying to draw some conclusions from this thread: – Maybe it's fair to say that high resolve vs Dex for the purposes of increasing concentration is more useful in the early game where: (a) you lack the means to hard CC enemies, such that concentration no longer becomes an issue; and (b) you lack the means to increase your absolute defences such that concentration isn't an issue; and © you lack easily accessible ways of increasing your concentration through abilities/items; and (d) enemies will probably have slightly lower PER I mean, there's a reason that the earliest parts of the game on POTD are usually the hardest, and its because you're getting ganked by large crowds of enemies without the means to control them/up your own defences. – It probably doesn't make sense to ever dump resolve on characters that will be engaged in melee a lot (e.g. <10) unless you've got a particular means of dealing with it/like buffing it every single fight. – Under the right circumstances, it seems concentration can be a very useful stat indeed for the amount of time it saves, particular on chars that are always going to get hit a lot in melee.