Livegood118

It would. That's why you don't let your melee cipher get hit too much.And give Shod-in-Faith to other frontliner, with maxed Mig, Int, low-deflection and high health pool. Usually it's a monk or barbarian. On a side note, Wound Binding is increased by Might and is usable in combat) Moon godlike, shod-in-faith'ed barb/monk with high Mig/Con/Int can just stand and stand and stand alive. This is kind of why I felt that a more defensive approach with Shield + Hatchet might be better, because if you've got higher deflection you're going to be much less likely to get attacked in the first place, which means more focus and less interruptions. Maybe Brynlod had a hatchet for a reason?

Sacred Immolation = 20 – 30 Burn Damage per 3 secs for 30 seconds, affected by Might (45%) and Scion of Flame (20%) Assume 25 Might, 25 Intellect vs 20 Burn DR (Also that Sacred Immolation goes against full DR rather than .25 DR?) Duration = 30 * 1.75 = 52.5 secs = 18 full ticks + 1 remainder tick (0.5) 20–30 * 1.65 = 33 – 49.5 18(33 – 49.5 -20) + ((33 – 49.5 * 0.5) -20) 18(13 – 29.5) + (16.5 – 24.75 - 20) = 234 – 531, + 3.3 (MIN) – 4.75) = 237.3 – 535.75, + 19 Procs of Combusting wounds = + 8.35*19 = 158.65 from combusting wounds Pretty damn good. This is of course assuming that every attack is a hit, whereas in reality it could be less or more depending on how much you crit.

Also - slightly offtopic, but how does an NPC paladin's faith and conviction scaling stack up vs a PC's?

Hmm yeah, as you and Boroer say, a Melee Cipher seems like a really good candidate for Sanguine Plate and Shod in Faith – though wouldn't health be a huge issue with this approach? I understand Potions of Vital Essence can mitigate this to an extent but it sounds like a pain to have to deal with.

A fighter will indeed outdamage cc-cipher.But not damage-oriented cipher. Auto-attacking is merely a third of this damage output, while powers are the main source. Mind Lance, Echo, Silent Scream, Amplified Wave and the best of them: a well placed Detonate (which although has a short range is easy to use by a melee cipher, especially when body blocking a door passage and most of enemies are on the other side). Sure - that's why I limited it to weapon damage The points I think I'm making in that long winded post above are as follows: 1. There's little point in making a melee Cipher if your focus generation isn't going to be greater than a ranged Cipher. 2. To achieve greater focus than a ranged Cipher, you have to balance your damage and survivability an appropriate amount. Where the balance lies in #2 I think is the main issue. Somebody with practical experience should be able to weigh in – I think that a Cipher with Hatchet + Shield should be able to do it in the early game, and then branch out mid game to something else + shield and then 2H + defensive Mindweb in late game. Edit: Regardless of what melee weapon you ultimately go for, Quickswitching Arquebuses seems to be particularly suited for a melee Cipher because it (a) allows you to quickly generate focus to shore up your defenses through buffs/cc at the start of the fight and (b) generate focus at convenient times in battles against enemies with heavy debuffs (e.g. shooting a paralysed enemy and being pretty sure you're going to get a crit).

Just to think on a high level here for a second, in my opinion the core advantage of going in as a melee Cipher is that under certain circumstances you'll be able to generate focus much faster than a ranged variant. In order to do this you need to be able to stay alive, meaning defences and liberal use of CC. Melee Cipher also carries the benefit of being able to use Ciphers' short range spells easier. A Cipher's auto-attacking damage output is more or less below a fighters for most of the game. For example with Sword and Shield: Fighter = 15% (Spec) + 10% (Mastery) + 15% (App. Sneak) + 20% (Savage) + confident aim + armoured grace = 60% dmg + conf aim + armoured grace Cipher = 20 % (Base) + 20 % (Biting) + 15 (app Sneak) + 20% (Savage) = 75% There are obviously other modifiers you can add to this as well like Might and Wep Enchantments but this is just to give a broad outline. A Cipher will overtake a fighter to the extent that Time Parasite reduces recovery. A fighter will always outdamage a Cipher in terms of weapon damage with recovery being equal or not too far off. I think a Melee Cipher should definitely go sword and shield until you get defensive mindweb, and have Quickswitch + Arms Bearer + Island Aumaua with Arquebuses at the start of fights for fast focus generation to get your buffs up to increase survivability and damage. Psychovampiric shield should drastically increase survivability at the start of the game, then graduate to borrowed instinct later on. I'd build as follows until you get defensive Mindweb: Might 15 Con 09 Dex 16 Per 10 Int 18 Res 10 Sword and Shield Quick Switch (Greater Focus seems like a waste when you could just switch to Arquebuses for same effect?) Biting Whip Weapon Focus Draining Whip Arms Bearer Apprentice Sneak etc ... Hatchets might be pretty good for the early game? IMO battles for the melee Cipher should be done in three stages: 1. Use Quickswitching Arquebuses to build focus 2. Cast Cipher Buffs 3. CC 4. Attack 5. Cycle through 3–4 and 2–4 as needed for when buffs restart. After you get defensive Mindweb: Might 18 Con 03 Dex 18 Per 18 Int 18 Res 03 Then get the 2H talent instead of sword and shield and use the blade of the endless Paths. No point whatsoever going Dual Wield when you've got no abilities that make use of full attacks and 0 recovery can be so easily achieved with Time Parasite. In late game you probably want to get off Defensive Mindweb > Time Parasite > Borrowed Instinct in that order.

Ah - thought it might be too good to be true. Nevertheless, still seems like an amazing synergy for pressure cooking large groups of enemies with Blights.

Hold on a sec ... I just did some more Math. Assuming the Wizard and a Chanter both have 25 Might and 25 Intellect, a hit of the Dragon Thrashed, the Dragon Wailed on an enemy with 20 DR and combusting wounds would = Combusting wounds = = 5 * 1.75 = 8.75 Duration = 3 Ticks + 0.91 remainder tick 3(5*1.45 - 5) + (5*1.45*0.91 - 5) = 6.75 + 1.6 = 8.35 Per proc of combusting wounds Dragon Thrashed Hit = 4 + 4*1.75 = 11 seconds = 4 ticks + 0.66 remainder tick Damage = 4(10*1.45 - 5) + (10*1.45*0.66 - 5) D = 2(38 + 4.57) = 85.14 dmg + 10 ticks of combusting wounds = 85.14 + 8.35*10 = = 85.14 + 83.5 = 168.64 That's crazy! How have I never used this before now!???

Interesting – so on a hit there's a tick as soon as it hits, a tick at the 3 second mark, and then a tick for the remainder - and each tick is 5 damage. At 25 Might/20 Intellect vs a 16 DR foe a crit would be: Duration = 5 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 11.25 seconds = 4 full ticks (including initial tick on hit) then a remainder tick 4(5*1.45 - 4) + ((5*1.45)0.75 - 4) = 4(7.25 -4) + (7.25*0.75 - 4) = 4*3.25 + 5.44 -4 = 13 + 1.44 = 14.44 damage per critical proc That's not bad at all!

Do you know how Combusting Wounds interacts with DR? Like will it always do 5 damage per tick?

Scion of Flame does work with Sacred Immolation right? It's a different mechanism from Chanter's Dragon Thrashed which doesn't work with it?

I mean, at high levels the Cipher can also go 100% full YOLO 2H cut-em-down with no repercussions because of Defensive Mindweb so at that stage you might as well just throw CON and RES out the window as long as you've got a sword and board tank in the party. Just have an Arquebus on quickswitch to get that initial focus for it.

100% agree Cipher trades +5 accuracy for +5 deflection vs Rogue in the beginning of the game. Rogue gets some nice passive stuff like hits to crits, sneak attack/deathblows and reckless assault but most on use abilities stink whereas Cipher can compensate for loss of accuracy with tactical meld and other accuracy buffs as well as landing huge disables with a crazy set of amazing on use abilities. Cipher brings Time Parasite, Disintegration, Amplified Wave, Ringleader, Whisper of Treason etc ... to the table. Shadowing Beyond and Escape, which allow the Rogue to avoid aggro, don't really compare to the hard CC achievable by the Cipher which negates the need to avoid aggro in the first place. I strongly suspect that Time Parasite's bonus to Attack speed (which, let's not forget, is multiplicative with other sources of +attack speed) is better than the benefits received from 60% extra base damage (Deathblows + 10% of sneak attack). 60% extra base damage at the end of the day will only add 8.4 – 12 damage. I'd take a melee cipher over a rogue any day of the week if we were talking about pure power. Edit: forgot Cipher can take apprentice sneak, which really means the sneak attack disparity is 55% vs 100%.

I personally find that the talents that modify the damage of flames of devotion are pretty lacklustre even if you're going for a kill-stealing build. Remember Rakhan Field is only two instances of a 25% lash per encounter. That'll typically add between 7.5 – 20 damage twice per encounter or thereabouts. Enduring flames is about twice that I suppose. They especially don't seem worth it once you've got Sacred Immolation, which is gonna out DPS anything else a Paladin can throw out. I'd probably rather shore up my defences before I'd take a talent like those.

The point was not about a Priest's functionality. But what possibly be done to distribute more of the support skills over the other classes so to lessen the need of a Priest. As some of the previous poster said, unbalance breeds flexibility and creativity. I think I agree with you. In my opinion, Paladin's and chanter's buff should be made stronger. Chanter should have (more convenient) equivalent of prayer spells (their versatility limited by chanter limited selection). Druids could get one or two more strong party buff too (they already have form of the Delemgan and Moonwell which are really great). Even then, Crown and Devotion are sligthly accross the board in my opinion. Crown's Resolve buff could be halved (maybe its AoE could be bigger to compensate). And Devotion Accuracy buff (and debuff) could be halved too (maybe be fast casting in exchange ?). The rest is OK. By the way, it could save priest from their "buffbot curse". They have good offensive spells too, and it would certainly cool to use them a bit more... I did actually make a thread about buffing chanter's support abilities but it didn't really get much love: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90507-rebalancing-chanters-or-the-makings-of-a-mod/ I'm still planning on making the changes when I get a free weekend, but I had to work on the weekend I was planning on doing it and the run up to christmas is super busy

I think I might be missing something here. But those changes you suggested (minus the scrolls) will not really change the situations of not bringing a Priest along. In other words for playthroughs without a Priest will more or less function remain the same. So nerfing the Priest will make you feel it is ok not bringing a Priest since you are not "missing" out on too much? What about buffing the support skills of other classes to lessen the need of a Priest functionally? Scroll of Prayers alone won't cut it. Apologies in advance to those who feel PoE is already too easy. I don't have any disagreement with how the priest functions, but rather with the fact the way stacking works in the game makes the priest OP. Under the changes I've proposed the priest would still be a great buffer, but less OP. For example under, what I've proposed a priest would be able to add +30 accuracy (Devotions, Champions Boon, Holy Radiance) rather than +40 (+20 Devotions, +10 Holy Radiance, +10 Champion's Boon), and other classes would be able to provide half this with a scroll of valour +15 accuracy. Devotions for the faithful wouldn't increase accuracy bonuses that other classes get, providing they're general bonuses.

Actually, just to get back to the discussion at hand: 1 the Fighter, 2x war hammers and as many for fun abilities I can squeeze into the Lady of pain build without feeling weak. See my comments above about 2H vs Dual Wield. Particularly in the case of a fighter, I would say 2H is better. If you want to get the most out of dual wield try and get lots of full attack abilities. 2 Tankadin, Main tank, cant decide if it will purely tank, tank and buff, tank and heal. Which do you think is best? Boroer's Councillor Ploi build is a great mix of offence/defence/support and I'd recommend it in this spot. 3 OT Priest, Wanted chanter tbh but I can't imagine a group with a priest so making it the OT to maximize spots in the grp. I'd strongly recommend moving the priest in to the back row and go for a build that focuses on buffing. There's a build for an offensive variant floating around the boards called the unfaithful that seems to be very good as well if you'd prefer a more offence oriented priest. Of course you can go up close with the priest but they're not really D&D clerics. Normally in this slot I would have single target DPS, but you've already got your fighter who'll do decent damage. Maybe you could do with some consistent AoE damage? Barbarian provides this from the beginning of the game to the end of the game, a Chanter can provide great AoE damage from level 9 and more support and good healing. 4 Ranger, Having the pet and twin arrows just seems sooooo good right now. Yeah this is a good spot for the ranger. Focus on getting stormcaller and get all of the talents that give your pet better damage. 5 Ranged rogue? Like the idea of an "escape" ranged rogue re-positioning when needed, but this spot isn't sold. Eh, ranged Rogue is kind of lacklustre and in the backline is more or less going to be a crap ranger without any of the perks. I'd take a pass. 6 Blast Wizzie? Seemed Like I really needed aoe and I am trying to avoid druid, Io don't want to rest spam if I can help it, did a melee druid hybrid potd run with companions and although it was fun once I got storms I didn't fall in love with it. You can go for a Blast Wizzie if you want – any Wizzie with decent Dex/Int/Per can lay down effective CC as well, which is what I love the wizard for the most. So, on what you've said, I would go for this setup 1. Counselor Ploi (Main Tank) 2. Your Fighter (Off Tank, with consecrated ground) 3. Consistent AoE DPS (Barbarian/Chanter) 4. Hunter (Single target DPS)/ Or Cipher (Good dps, extra CC) 5. Wizard (CC) 6. Priest

Don't that Dark Souls games prove that this isn't true? For whatever reason, Dark Souls gets away with this when a lot of other games don't I think. Also a lot of people can just summon help in Dark souls.

This is a really great build - one of my favourites from you.

I think OBS probably have to be conscious that not everyone that buys/purchases the game is going to play it as much as we all do. People really do struggle with these games. Hell, I remember on my first playthrough on normal it must've taken me 10-15 times to beat the Adra Dragon, and I've played all of the infinity engine games back to front and sideways and backwards. I mean, they had to introduce the story time mode which is a step down from easy. It's fair enough that all of the hardest fights in the game are pretty much optional and I think you get the best of both worlds from that approach. And you've got to be really conscious of making your game too hard because people will **** all over something if they think it's being unfair, even if it isn't and they're just bad at it. The fact Pillars' mechanics aren't exactly too transparent doesn't help the issue.

Yeah I'm aware of that, because Circle of Defence also belongs to the +all defences mod rather than individual mods for each defence.

It's uber-powerful by virtue of belonging to the +all defences mod, which stacks with nearly everything else – though maybe I was a bit harsh.

Well, to the extent you don't have other buffs which also have the +x all defences mod. It wouldn't stack with vigorous defence but it would stack with shields for the faithful, for example. Poorly worded on my part, I'll edit. I think under what I've suggested the Priest would still be far and away the best buffer in the game, but wouldn't be quite so OP as they are now.

This is basically what I'd do with the priest if I was in charge of them: – Change Devotions for the Faithful to +15 accuracy and to a generic accuracy buff, rather than to ranged and melee which stacks with pretty much everything, keep the might component – Change Inspiring Radiance to +5 accuracy rather than +10, still let it stack with everything – Change Devotions for the Faithful to +10 Resolve rather than +25, keep it the same otherwise – Change Shields for the Faithful to +15 Deflection – Change Circle of Defence to + 8 and increase defences individually rather than to all defences so it doesn't stack with everything – Change Circle of Eothas to +10 all defences (will still stack with anything that isn't +x all defences modifier). Then maybe make Prayer Against scrolls a bit faster and more freely available.

Also echoing Jerek - don't go for a ranged rogue unless you're doing something fancy like Boroer's apprentice build.