Livegood118

Also I haven't considered to what extent graze or Crits affect the math. Base damage for the two of them is the same, so presumably the one that hits more often would benefit more from crits, though it's not a lot of damage. I'm not sure how crit/graze interacts with wounding on tidefall. If all a crit does is extend its duration that would lower dps, but if it increases overall damage then that would bring it back up again. Of course woundings damage would increase naturally with higher initial damage.

Hi all, Im trying to work out what's more optimal on a 2H Fighter – BotEP vs Tidefall. Set-up and math is as follows: Recovery Mods: Tidefall: (1.15 (Durgan) *1.15 (Gloves of Swift Action) *1.25 (Sanguine Plate Frenzy)) - 1) + 0.15 (Durgan Armour) +0.2 (Armoured Grace) = .65 -.5 (NDW Penalty) -.15 (Armour Penalty) = 0 recovery factor BotEP: 1.15*1.15*1.25*1.2 = .98 -.5 -.15 = 0.33 recovery factor Attack Speed 17 Dex Tidefall 30/1.21 = 25 Attack Duration 25/1.2 * max(0, 1 - 2*0) 25/1.2 = 21 recovery frames +5 frames Total attack time = 51 frames BotEP 25 Attack Duration 25/1.2 *0.33 = 7 +5 frames Total Attack Time = 37 frames Damage 22 Might (inc. Frenzy from Sanguine Plate) vs 16 DR Damage Bonus: 15% (2H Style) + 20% (Savage Attack) + 15% (Apprentice Sneak) + 10% (Weapon Mastery) + 15% (Weapon Specialisation) + 36% (Might) + 45% (Superb) = 156% Base dmg for both = 14 – 20 With Confident Aim = 17 – 20 17 – 20 * 2.56 = 43.52 – 51, AVG = 47 dmg 47 vs 16 = 31 (Physical Damage) 12 vs 4 = 8 (Elemental Lash) 12*1.36 = 16 (Wounding Lash) +5 damage for BotEP TF = 31 + 8 + 16 = 55 dmg per hit EP = 31 + 8 + 5 = 44 dmg per hit Total Damage in same amount of time spent attacking vs 16 DR VS 8 DR TF attacks every 51 frames for 65 dmg, EP attacks every 37 frames for 54 dmg VS 16 DR TF attacks every 51 frames for 55 dmg, EP attacks every 37 frames for 44 dmg VS 28 DR TF attacks every 51 frames for 40 dmg, EP attacks every 37 frames for 29 dmg VS 36 DR TF attacks every 51 frames for 30 dmg, EP attacks every 37 frames for 19 dmg VS 8 DR TF = 65 dmg * 37 = 2405 EP = 54 dmg * 51 = 2754 VS 16 DR TF = 55 dmg * 37 = 2035 EP = 44 dmg * 51 = 2244 VS 28 DR TF = 40 dmg * 37 = 1480 dmg EP = 29 dmg * 51 = 1479 dmg (wow I didn't mean for this to work out this evenly) VS 36 DR TF = 30 dmg * 37 = 1110 dmg EP = 19 dmg * 51 = 969 dmg Conclusions – Because of wounding on Tidefall it naturally does a lot better against high DR targets – I'm not sure how to factor in the "Delay" in Tidefall's DPS as a result of INT. – With a Deleterious Alacrity of Motion potion Tidefall will attack exactly as fast as BotEP without the potion – BotEP = .73 recovery factor with DaoM potion, meaning you would be able to use Vulnerable attack with no penalty – In practice, Tidefall's different damage types will come in to play in it's favour – Tidefall has draining, which is nice – I feel like in practice the damage of both is likely to be much closer together as you might get like 25 hits off in an ordinary fight – I still can't decide!!!!! Maybe with much higher might Tidefall is a better choice e.g. that would synergise better with wounding

Does anyone here rate fires of Darcozzi Palace? Any way you look at it a Paladin isn't really going to be doing much damage until they get sacred immolation so I figured it might be an ok-ish boost. It's 6-8 damage per proc right? Does it scale at all?

If someone asked me whether I wanted +10 Deflection or +10 accuracy on a character I would probably say "it depends". The value of either is dependant on a variety of different factors, including, but not limited to: – The class of the character getting it e.g. whether it's more defensive or offensive, whether accuracy or staying alive is more valuable to increasing dps, whether it can actually do much damage in the first place, whether they're going to be using CC etc ... – What existing equipment the character is using – Other party members, and the extent that they can buff stats such that further boosts become less effective – What kind of opponent I'm fighting e.g. how often is my deflection going to be tested, how high is its deflection – Do I want this character taking hits (e.g. offtank to attract aggro, spell holding items) While accuracy arguably becomes less valuable the more you can stack, I don't think you ever reach the point in ordinary gameplay where not having more deflection is a great thing if you can get away with it given how often it is tested. It massively increases in value the more you can stack, e.g.: – When deflection and accuracy are equal, there'll be a 15% chance to miss, 35% chance of half damage and 50% chance full damage – If Deflection is 50 points above accuracy, there'll be a 65% chance to miss and 35% chance to do half damage In the first scenario, if a character was hit 100 times with an attack that did average 15 damage, on average they'd take 762.5 damage. In the second with the same attack strength the character would only take 262.5 damage, which is 34% of the damage you would have otherwise taken had you not got that 50 deflection (e.g. a 66% reduction in damage). It scales much more nicely than increased accuracy. Also, many of the status effects tied to fortitude or other defensive stats have an initial deflection component, whereby if the attack misses then the secondary status effect cannot come in to effect. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say at least 85-90% of the damage incurred by a party in any given playthrough comes from attacks to the deflection stat.

That's true to an extent, however I still think deflection is the most important overall in the majority of cases. I would rank defences as follows Deflection -> Fort -> Reflex -> Will Sure, you can't really "cure" prone and stun other than casting suppress affliction/liberating exhortation or one of the single target priest protection spells, but for that there's the preservation enchantment which more or less nullifies the afflictions (other than keeping the char immobile) and will give you a defensive boost too. Deflection and Fortitude are definitely useful on everyone, but I bet if you tanked deflection you'd notice it much sooner than if you tanked fortitude.

More accuracy (Perception) is pretty much always useful for most characters, up until you reach the point where you start never missing, after which diminishing returns kick in relative to other stats. Arguably a case can be made for accuracy being more useful on characters that use duration based damage, CC effects and attacks with larger base damage. Deflection is far and away the most useful defence, so much so that the ways of stacking it have been consistently nerfed throughout development (such as reducing different classes' base deflection, and changing perception from a deflection bonus to an accuracy bonus). It'll be the defence that's hit the hardest and most frequently by pretty much every single character in the game. Most afflictions in the game can be cured by a priest or by scrolls or by other abilities whereas there's no cure at all for having ****ty deflection. 1 deflection doesn't really = 0.5 accuracy as they're both different things with different purposes and have different kinds of utility on different characters.

Once your starting stats are allocated you won't get anymore (e.g. on level up). You can however re-allocate your characters starting stats at an inn by clicking the dice icon. Various quests will lead to talents being rewarded that permanently increase your stats. Equipment and abilities can also increase your stats while they're in effect.

Crits are only 150% damage if attacker doesn't have any damage bonuses. Boeroer's math seems to indicate that the belt works inclusive of any bonus to damage. So if you had a 100 base damage attack, 20 Might (+30% DMG) and Crit (+50%) Damage, that'd be 180 damage total, which would be reduced by *(1-0.27) = 131.4 on a crit. An ordinary hit would be 130 damage, before DR is taken in to account. Funnily enough, it seems with higher might (say 25 Might for +45% DMG) a hit would actually do more damage than a crit e.g. 142.35 (crit) vs 145 (hit). Can't think of many attacks in the game that have 100 base damage though ... Dragon Breath? Also not sure what you mean by 1 deflection = 0.5 accuracy.

In terms of actual effect, I think an argument can be made that the "best stat" e.g. the one that increasing makes the biggest difference, is intellect. It confers a pure multiplicative benefit to most abilities it interacts with and because of the way the equation works out in game works really effectively with CC crits e.g. a crit with a 10 second CC spell at 10 Int and the same one at 20 Int is 15 seconds vs 22.5 seconds respectively, which is another 3/4 of the way there to having another cast of the base spell again.

This is a pro tip. I had no idea this thing was this good and it seems like a best in slot if you've got a Sanguine Plate/Shod in Faith 2H/DW char.

your telling me that a two hander can out dps dual wielding????? no way.......how is this possible The more recovery you can stack, the more it evens out between the two attacking styles. With 0 or small recovery a 2H will attack just as fast as dual wielding and hit much harder. You'll be at 0 recovery in either instance when your recovery mod is greater than 0.5. For example, Blade of Endless paths + Gauntlets of Swift Action + Durgan Steel + Swift Strikes = (1.2*1.15*1.15*1.25 -1) = 0.98 -.5 (no DW penalty) = .48 If you add 15% armour penalty (or are wearing a durganised -30% recovery armour) you'll reduce your recovery frames by two thirds after dex is taken in to account. Of course, access to lots of full attacks can change things in DW's favour. As Boeroer mentioned, I'd highly recommend reading MaxQuest's thread on attack speed. He has assumed Loren Tyr's mantle as the forum's game mechanics guru.

??? 13 – 19 at +100% damage = 26 – 38 11 – 16 at +100% damage = 22 – 32 1H weapon gains another 11 – 16 dmg, 2H gains another 13 – 19 Seems like +% damage modifiers synergise pretty well with higher base damage

Putting resolve to less than 10 on a melee character is a pretty big no-no in my books but your mileage may vary.

In an ideal world we'd have an AI system that could handle this kind of mechanic for us but alas it looks like we're going to have to wait for Pillars 2. Maybe in PoE 1 "enhanced edition"? Still, I think quickswitching makes the Island Aumaua the "optimal" race for a melee cipher – get in nice and close and then blow peoples' heads off with an Arquebus when you need some immediate focus.

Thanks again for the insight wise PoE sage.

This is how 2H vs DW compare once you have achieved zero recovery: spreadsheet Bittercut gets outclassed against even DR, although it still keeps the benefit of dual damaging type. Very interesting – thanks! Any thoughts on Tidefall vs The Blade of the Endless Paths? Notwithstanding Tidefall doesn't have a speed enchant, I would have figured that it still came out on top.

Hi MaxQuest, Do you have any general recommendations for what kind of builds 2H is optimal for and what kind of builds Dual Wielding is optimal for? My understanding of the math is that where a character has relatively few ways to reduce their recovery dual wielding is superior, whereas if a character has plenty of ways to boost their recovery through abilities then 2H is superior. Also, if the character's got access to plenty of full attacks or Heart of Fury then dual wielding will obviously be better (at least for the full attacks). At the end of the day in hard fights any character can drink a Deleterious Alacrity of Motion Potion, so maybe 2H is better overall in the end against enemies that really matter? 2H's higher base also helps defeat high DR foes (scales better than vulnerable attack). Maybe dual wield is superior for the first half of the game then 2H is superior for the second half? Interested to hear your thoughts on this issue. Edit: total +% damage bonus available is obviously a factor as well, as this will benefit 2H more than DW

Hi all, Just thinking about what PC I'm going to play next and doing a Paladin crossed my mind. What's your favourite Paladin Order and why? Benefits of the various orders are as follows: ----------------------- Bleak Walkers The Black Path - When the paladin defeats an opponent, nearby enemies are Frightened Remember Rakhan Field - +25% Corrode Lash on Flames of Devotion Darcozzi Paladini Inspiring Liberation - +10 Accuracy Bonus with Liberating Exhortation, stacks with everything Fires of Darcozzi Palace - Flame shield when using Goldpact Knights Enduring Flames - Burn DoT with flames of Devotion Bond of Duty - Liberating Exhortation grants a defensive bonus against Charmed, Confused, and Dominated. Kind Wayfarers Strange Mercy - Downing an opponent = 38 to 83 base endurance AoE heal based on level The Sword and the Shepherd - Flames of Devotion = AoE Heal for 21 to 48 based endurance based on level Shieldbearers of St. Elcga Shielding Flames - Flames of Devotion = +10 Deflection AoE for 10 secs, stackable with everything Shielding Touch - Lay on Hands gives +8 deflection for 10 secs, not stackable with everything ------------------ To me it seems like the real standout abilities are Inspiring Liberation (Darcozzi), Strange Mercy (Kind Wayfarer) and Shielding Flames (Shieldbearer). Bleakwalkers and Goldpact Knights don't seem great by comparison. It was kind of cool when Bleak Walkers could proc stuff like envenomed strike through "the Black Path" but that has since been fixed. I might try Boroer's Counselor Ploi (https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/89995-class-build-counselor-ploi-charming-paladin-supporter-tank/) or Torm 51's Darcozzi Forward Observer (https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83526-the-darcozzi-forward-observer-could-use-some-input/). Being able to grant a nearby ally with +40 accuracy that's completely stackable with everything else in the game by dual wielding marking weapons (+20), using coordinated attacks (+10) and inspiring liberation (+10) seems like it would be an absolute game changer. Guess you've got +6 from Zealous focus too. You'd be able to land any CC you want against anything, or ensure 100% crits with any one character. Anyone got any experience with this?

Only thing I'd really disagree with not hesitating to dump stats to 3. For ranged characters that are unlikely to get hit often or who can shore up their own defences reducing stats to three isn't the end of the world – however I find with low Con the chance of getting one-shotted with low endurance characters is very high indeed. Also, when you inevitably do get ganked, if you've tanked your resolve it's very unlikely you're going to be able to recover from that if you haven't got concentration buffs. This is especially true in the early game with less hard CC. Reducing any stat to 3 on a melee character is a big no-no in my books. You can get away with 3 intellect on some characters (Rogue in particular) and this synergises nicely with wounding effects but apart from that the examples where reducing a stat to 3 is good are reserved for specific builds that are designed to counter such weaknesses with items/ability selection. I wouldn't say as a general principle this is sound for melee chars. Dumping resolve/Con on a melee char is a death sentence without the right builds, Per is required so you can hit stuff, MIG is necessary so that you do damage and actually attract aggro away from your squishies and Res less than 10 means you're going to get interrupted a lot. Just my 2 cents. Otherwise nice guide.

Savage Attack works with Reckless attack but the dmg bonus is suppressed and you get just -5acc... 10/10 coding

Once you're level 13 you might consider taking a few points out of Res/Per and sticking them in to Int and Might to get more out of sacred immolation but apart from that looks good. edit; also zealous focus is nice to have too. I find zealous endurance kinda becomes redundant as game goes on but ymmv

Bittercut is a very, very good weapon: 1. Starts with +20% from sabre bonus, get's +20% from Spirit of Decay before any other enchantments are applied. 2. The Bonus from Spirit of Decay applies to both the slash and corrode portions of the weapon 3. Any lashes will synergise with their respective elemental talent e.g. if you put a corrode lash on bittercut and have spirit of decay, it'll become a 30% lash rather than a 25% lash. 4. Dual damage types are really, really good. 5. Vulnerable attack with apply to both the physical and corrode aspects of the damage. However, given that Rogues can struggle with getting speed boosts, other than in situations where you're dual wielding, you might consider something else instead because rogues dont have too much trouble with DR through doing high damage. This'll depend on the rest of your equip set-up though. Another option to consider for rogue is the greatsword Tidefall. Rogues can dump Int with very little repercussions, meaning the wounding effect will work faster. Draining is fantastic. Tidefall has two damage types as well and comes Superb as standard.

Honestly this thread is starting to feel like a troll/honey pot. Views of people with extensive experience of the game who provided mathematics/experience to support their arguments are just being misrepresented.

This is kind of the problem I identified in my original posts in this thread. It’s very hard to rate the classes without looking at specific jobs that need to be accomplished, for example: – Single Target Damage – AoE Damage – Hard CC (Area) – Soft CC (Area) – CC (Single Target) – Tanking – Support/Buffs If we did this with the Rogue, we'd probably get: – Single Target Damage, A – AoE Damage, C+ (If you want to use scrolls), D otherwise – Hard CC (Area), B- if scrolls, D otherwise – Soft CC (Area), D – CC (Single Target), B+ – Tanking, C- – Support/Buffs, D – Need to rest © (Low health) Then with the Druid, we get: – Single Target Damage (B+/A-) – AoE Damage, A – Hard CC (Area), A – Soft CC (Area), B+ – CC (Single Target), A – Tanking, B – Support/Buffs, B+ – Need to Rest, C- (Vancian Caster) This kind of gives a better indication of the different strengths and weaknesses of the characters.

If push came to shove and we're talking about maximum balls-to-the-wall output in any one fight difficult fight (Llengrath and the Bog Dragons, for example) I would say the Druid is probably the most powerful class. Relentless Storm is up there with Defensive Mindweb as the hands down most broken/GG ability in the game, so much so that I try not to run with Druids anymore because it can trivialise 95% of the encounters in the game. You get four casts of it and can easily boost the duration to around 25 seconds, pretty much locking down anything that's not immune to stun in a massive radius for 100 seconds. You can then prone anything else with Calling the World's maw. Paralyse Dragons with Hold Beasts. Petrify Dragons and then explode them with Spiritshift. Big damage with spells etc ... A Rogue, by comparison, is just not great. There's some arguments for them reliably providing consistently high single target damage/CC over a range of fights when they've got a good party to support them but overall they're just meh and don't bring that much to the table. I always thought that a good "opening" for the Rogue class that could differentiate it from others would be to provide really good single target CC. This can be accomplished to some extent with stunning weapons but they really should have something like the Ranger's stunning shots so you can do it with super high damage weapons too.